If SS were superior in PvE, the entire DPS-League to wouldn't be using BFAW. I have still to hear a counter against that. And no, blustering, name-calling, making it out as if PvE-ers are starting a fight here, because us PvE-ers can't win in PvP (Haha! That was a good one!), none of that counts as a counter, btw.
Make me a case that shows why the entire DPS-League top should be using SS, instead of BFAW, and you've won. Show me how RyanSTO can do more DPS with SS than with BFAW, and you've won. You can't, of course. Yes, I know, more ridicule will follow, more personal attacks, more whatever, but none in the way of actually countering the argument.
Simple fact remains: y'all botched your case when you started claiming SS was OP in PvE too. You should have stuck to making a case for PvP.
Simple fact remains: y'all botched your case when you started claiming SS was OP in PvE too. You should have stuck to making a case for PvP.
Er...it was PvE folks that were making that claim. That's where I edited some of my earlier inflammatory comments replacing them with the link to the math post instead. Cause it was kind of mind-boggling. Go back and read through some of those early PvE posts...where folks are talking about how PvE can't be done without the damage from SS. It was a total wtf moment reading some of the reasons given for not looking at SS...actually looking at it is what suggests that it's mostly on par with other things...it's their defense of it which would actually bring about some kind of nerf to it.
BTW, along those lines of what they were saying there and how it drew attention to it even though they may have thought they were defending it...
...have you considered what going on and on about FAW being superior to everything else kind of means?
It is just that some would like to manufacture a conflict against PvPers and then win it on forums because in PvP they have 0 chance. They make their ships only to function in ISA and beyond that everything is useless like they have admitted for SS as well.
If this thread was about nerfing SNB or whatever else absolutely not one PvEr would even come here let alone spouting such BS as "don't nerf SS even though we don't use it at all" and then..
"checkmate?" ffs.
I mean really meimeitoo?
Also SS would need more testing after last patch in real battle vs normal defense, normal resist targets.
Guess what, I challenged him 1v1 T5U and still refused. For all the lame excuses he can possibly say, compared to me, you, sherlock, nando, sativa, colonel, and the other guys from OPVP he's a NPC. He can't fight a human mind, doesn't have nor the skills nor the knowledge to build and use a ship to do that, not even if I gave him my Aventine, I'm pretty sure the first complain I'd hear is why there are no tactical consoles loaded. Even if I gave him my Tempest build and give him the time to mirror it for a 1v1 he'd still chicken out.
Basically they say one thing, negate it later, affirm it again creating a contrast, adjust it, negate it -> repeat. Their drug dealer is a good one.
Here's a look at some numbers from an ISA run back on the 25th.
As long as NPCs are just non-threatening meatbags created to allow for a certain engagement time, one couldn't possibly hope to balance PvP and PvE, again imho. One couldn't hope for the game to be anything more than a DPS game...lobbing grenades into a barrel of goldfish faster and faster.
edit: Course, it will never happen. Any time Cryptic's done anything to try to make NPCs more threatening than a sickly guppy, the forums have flooded with tears.
The 5 man private Q is responsible for most of that as you well know allowing 5 veteran players to go into content and obliterate it in mere seconds ..then cryptic using that data to make changes to the content.
using private Q data to balance content is so wrong on so many levels its criminal
As I suggested the Qs / content needs to be staffed with DPS value of the players...not
X number of players ( 5 )
players need to be united not gated apart from each other so new players can be taught by veterans
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Guess what, I challenged him 1v1 T5U and still refused. For all the lame excuses he can possibly say, compared to me, you, sherlock, nando, sativa, colonel, and the other guys from OPVP he's a NPC. He can't fight a human mind, doesn't have nor the skills nor the knowledge to build and use a ship to do that, not even if I gave him my Aventine, I'm pretty sure the first complain I'd hear is why there are no tactical consoles loaded. Even if I gave him my Tempest build and give him the time to mirror it for a 1v1 he'd still chicken out.
Guess what? I'm still not accepting your challenge. I *do* find it amusing, though, that you keep trying to get me, what was the term, 'wrekt'? It's amusing because you think it will work; that may ego now will leap out, simply because you attempt to push a button, and that I will finally do battle with you. And even more amusimg than that, LOL, is that you assume all of this is because I won't accept your 1v1 match. It does give me a fascinating peek into the ego-sizing world that is PvP, though. Oh, and like I said, I never chickened out, because I never chickened in.
And, like I said, more ridicule was sure to follow, and personal attacks, and what not. Also, as expected; you are that Scorpio: you just kinda do what you do. Constant as the Northern star.
If SS were superior in PvE, the entire DPS-League to wouldn't be using BFAW. I have still to hear a counter against that. And no, blustering, name-calling, making it out as if PvE-ers are starting a fight here, because us PvE-ers can't win in PvP (Haha! That was a good one!), none of that counts as a counter, btw.
Make me a case that shows why the entire DPS-League top should be using SS, instead of BFAW, and you've won. Show me how RyanSTO can do more DPS with SS than with BFAW, and you've won. You can't, of course. Yes, I know, more ridicule will follow, more personal attacks, more whatever, but none in the way of actually countering the argument.
Simple fact remains: y'all botched your case when you started claiming SS was OP in PvE too. You should have stuck to making a case for PvP.
I'm sorry, but absolute BS.
Yo were first here to complain on Nerfing SS as it would be weak in PvE and now you saying no one is using it in PvE anyway, like i have been saying all along.
(mind that, if we bumped into each other in-game now, I'd take the challenge and lose anyway..
but I have zero illusions about my ability to win a duel.
The fact you'd accept would make you earn my respect and a spot in my friend list, TRIBBLE the outcome of the match, I don't look at it much. If you want to have a 1v1, drop me a PM, or even just the handle so I can add you
Guess what? I'm still not accepting your challenge. I *do* find it amusing, though, that you keep trying to get me, what was the term, 'wrekt'? It's amusing because you think it will work; that may ego now will leap out, simply because you attempt to push a button, and that I will finally do battle with you. And even more amusimg than that, LOL, is that you assume all of this is because I won't accept your 1v1 match. It does give me a fascinating peek into the ego-sizing world that is PvP, though. Oh, and like I said, I never chickened out, because I never chickened in.
And, like I said, more ridicule was sure to follow, and personal attacks, and what not. Also, as expected; you are that Scorpio: you just kinda do what you do. Constant as the Northern star.
What kind of problems do you have? The fact you don't accept a challenge because you're scared of the outcome is enough. You can't even support your theories and you pretend to be right. Learn from Patrick, learn to be humble as your thoughts are leaking on every side. Sharx's post is the proof.
I'm sorry, but absolute BS.
Yo were first here to complain on Nerfing SS as it would be weak in PvE and now you saying no one is using it in PvE anyway, like i have been saying all along.
Pure BS, you can't fool me.
Nope, never said no one is using it in PvE: pure strawman. I, for one, am using it in PvE. :P If, for nothing else, simply because I feel my Phantom was made for it; and it's a refreshing new ability, instead of ever doing BFAW. I *did*, however, say SS is not superior in PvE, let alone OP. In fact, many of the DPS-League folks keep asking me why I don't use BFAW, like they do. And, indeed, in an ISA, for example, I'm usually the only one using SS. But guess what?! I like it that way.
Oh, and 'first here to complain on Nerfing SS' was the topic starter, of course. But just so we're clear on it: I absolutely do not want to see SS nerfed for PvE, albeit that I can probably live with not having the [Acc] bonus any more, if push came to shove.
Guess what, I challenged him 1v1 T5U and still refused. For all the lame excuses he can possibly say, compared to me, you, sherlock, nando, sativa, colonel, and the other guys from OPVP he's a NPC. He can't fight a human mind, doesn't have nor the skills nor the knowledge to build and use a ship to do that, not even if I gave him my Aventine,
"We werent able to come to an agreement so I had to challenge him. Unfortunately you cant smash someones face..ehm ship without asking them first. Would have been far easier if we had met in real life."
Is what your post reads for me. Why not just agree to disagree instead of throwing -imaginare- fists in the air?
If, for nothing else, simply because I feel my Phantom was made for it; and it's a refreshing new ability, instead of ever doing BFAW. I *did*, however, say SS is not superior in PvE, let alone OP. In fact, many of the DPS-League folks keep asking me why I don't use BFAW, like they do. And, indeed, in an ISA, for example, I'm usually the only one using SS.
This certain dpser would more likely ask why you use beams on a perfectly fine escort But well, everyone how they like it (as long as certain numbers are made).
"We werent able to come to an agreement so I had to challenge him. Unfortunately you cant smash someones face..ehm ship without asking them first. Would have been far easier if we had met in real life."
Is what your post reads for me. Why not just agree to disagree instead of throwing -imaginare- fists in the air?
This certain dpser would more likely ask why you use beams on a perfectly fine escort But well, everyone how they like it (as long as certain numbers are made).
Since he thinks that X ability doesn't need a nerf, he must have knowledge of game mechanics. Since we couldn't come to an agreement (and never will probably) I challenged him to support his own theories, give me proof that he's right on what he's saying. He can't do that. Between PvPers we would have already done that, reached an agreement and the losing side would have probably an improved build by asking for suggestions, instead of endlessly rage like everyone but PvPers are doing here.
What kind of problems do you have? The fact you don't accept a challenge because you're scared of the outcome is enough. You can't even support your theories and you pretend to be right. Learn from Patrick, learn to be humble as your thoughts are leaking on every side. Sharx's post is the proof.
You just don't stop trying, do you?! LOL. Um, no? Again.
The 'problem' that you perceive me as having, is called self-control. I do not jump thru someone else's hoops merely because they try and goat me in to doing so. And nothing for me to be afraid of, either: I would lose, 5-0, no doubt about it. I wouldn't stand a chance.
What is interesting, though, is why you, the big bad PvP-er, are trying to get your jollies off challenging me, the not even human 'NPC', to a duel. What glory could possibly be had by winning such a victory? I have some Klingon friends I can refer you to, that could possibly teach you a thing or two about an honorable fight. Or a few Hirogen, maybe, about seeking worthy prey.
Sorry, but you obviously lost contact with reality.
STO was never about balance, except a short period after launch.
It is an arms race for the next OP pay2win stuff, so get your wallets ready.
Something I don't understand:
With 100% crit 150k Isokinetic Cannon hits, 100% crit TBR III dealing 30k per pulse and most DPS dealt by secondary procs, instead of main weaponary...is there any serious reason to still PvP?
Unlike PvP players, the minority who live in heir own "balanced" world, I agree with keeping SS III OP as long as it helps to fight hp bags in PvE.
Well, if it were a disagreement between pvpers there wouldnt be such a basic one in the first place. Like I mentioned, you come from pvp-land (which has been destroyed at least 50 times over the course of the last two years) and he comes from pve-land (and moreover the dpscrowd, the ones who brought DR to the players), and thus you cant come to an agreement wether SS is OP or not.
Because it isnt, and at the same time it is. For PvE its working quite fine, but doesnt outshine FAW or CSV. That its OP in pvp can very well be. That taking away acc wouldnt do anything for pve isnt entirely true too, as acc-overflow would work with it (in comparison to the rest its of course a small influence). Now, on the one side we have someone claiming its horrible OP, and on the other we have someone claiming its not. And both are actually right. In there own realms they are correct.
The pvp-match would only bring a conclussion with pvp-players, but even if he were to acknowledge that its op in pvp (since you already said he is likely a bad pvp-player, your win would be meaningless btw.), it still wouldnt be in pve. And that is the focal point of your discussion.
TBH I am not surprised. I always though it is impossible to kill a dead thing
You just don't stop trying, do you?! LOL. Um, no? Again.
The 'problem' that you perceive me as having, is called self-control. I do not jump thru someone else's hoops merely because they try and goat me in to doing so. And nothing for me to be afraid of, either: I would lose, 5-0, no doubt about it. I wouldn't stand a chance.
What is interesting, though, is why you, the big bad PvP-er, are trying to get your jollies off challenging me, the not even human 'NPC', to a duel. What glory could possibly be had by winning such a victory? I have some Klingon friends I can refer you to, that could possibly teach you a thing or two about an honorable fight. Or a few Hirogen, maybe, about seeking worthy prey.
Funny how you're depicting me as the one completely mad. I assure you couldn't be more relaxed right now. But again, I still can't get one of your previous posts. I try, and I try, but...
...since when the Quantum Focused Shield Bubble can be used on every ship? ._." That's exactly what you meant there, assuming it as the way to counter SS3, when only one ship is able to do so, to my knowledge.
Am I missing something, or the Experimental Systems set is Vesta/Rademaker/Aventine exclusive?
And since when FBP is the guaranteed way to score a kill, no matter the ship you're flying?
It would be great to know how I can slot the Quantum Shield on my Tempest, Scimitar, Intrepid. My attempts to do so have failed.
And atm, SS is only decent in the low-medium echolons of the dps-crowd.
What counts as the lower tiers of the DPS crew? I'm usually around 17-22k, and I once spiked up to a 30K ISA.
I don't use SS. All it takes is FAW.
I've used FAW in an Avenger, FPE-r, and (Tac) Vesta, putting up that 17-22k range.
I can do the same with in an totally non-upgraded, non-Neutronic using Torp Boat. Average around 19k - in my PvP build, that's more focused on team and individual healing + resists instead of AoE spam.
Something I don't understand:
With 100% crit 150k Isokinetic Cannon hits, 100% crit TBR III dealing 30k per pulse and most DPS dealt by secondary procs, instead of main weaponary...is there any serious reason to still PvP?
Unlike PvP players, the minority who live in heir own "balanced" world, I agree with keeping SS III OP as long as it helps to fight hp bags in PvE.
You forgot Beam Overloads doing insane Crits (with increased bleedthrough, thanks to the DOff) as well.
You're right, there are quite a few things that are out of whack right now.
But, we've been slowing chipping away at it - Ionic, Neutronic, EAP. We're getting there.
What people fail to realize is that everything were brought down a notch to a more manageable level, NPC HP could be brought down as well (provided that Cryptic saw reason and recognized their mistake in just dumping more HP - there's no reason to have 500k non-Boss level NPCs).
You forgot Beam Overloads doing insane Crits (with increased bleedthrough, thanks to the DOff) as well.
You're right, there are quite a few things that are out of whack right now.
But, we've been slowing chipping away at it - Ionic, Neutronic, EAP. We're getting there.
What people fail to realize is that everything were brought down a notch to a more manageable level, NPC HP could be brought down as well (provided that Cryptic saw reason and recognized their mistake in just dumping more HP - there's no reason to have 500k non-Boss level NPCs).
Developers had same idea of pumping HP to players in arena and on PvP subforum we have promptly all agreed that would be very wrong and other issues need to be adressed first like disproportional stacking res debuffs and effective damage resulting from that.
They have tried (with RnD revamp) to push numbers up so people would bite and upgrade.
And it worked to some extent. Then they have further increased damage scaling on MK XIII and MK XIV, but such disproportional damage has shown it's ugly face- All queues started to be empty except for ISA and CCA: i half of space active players were at DPS channels chasing numbers and other half was orbiting Argala.
Game came to borefest before last patch, which was first step in right direction since RnD revamp.
Further more, only reason that they haven't brought back elite Infected, Cure, CC and Khitomer is because difficulty level would eat upp al those shiny gold DPS numbers from epic Mk XIV weapons.
But that's coming next, and if they have learned anything(and it seems that they have by expanding patrol system and locking out argala) they will make ISE difficult, not by HP but by actual buffs/debuffs that all other NPCs(even borg) use everywhere else, only not in ISA.
They have abused DPS to sell gear, ship traits etc. but it has become so toxic, all that nonsense about "PUG LyfE and DPS wizardry" that cryptic must radically change their approach of catering to select audience and pushing players in niches. DPS, PvP, RP, whatever. Give enough balanced options and people will naturally choose what they enjoy.
Give them 2 easy missions and one easy patrol and you'll get what you'll get. Empty queues.
Developers had same idea of pumping HP to players in arena and on PvP subforum we have promptly all agreed that would be very wrong and other issues need to be adressed first like disproportional stacking res debuffs and effective damage resulting from that.
They have tried (with RnD revamp) to push numbers up so people would bite and upgrade.
And it worked to some extent. Then they have further increased damage scaling on MK XIII and MK XIV, but such disproportional damage has shown it's ugly face- All queues started to be empty except for ISA and CCA: i half of space active players were at DPS channels chasing numbers and other half was orbiting Argala.
Game came to borefest before last patch, which was first step in right direction since RnD revamp.
Further more, only reason that they haven't brought back elite Infected, Cure, CC and Khitomer is because difficulty level would eat upp al those shiny gold DPS numbers from epic Mk XIV weapons.
But that's coming next, and if they have learned anything(and it seems that they have by expanding patrol system and locking out argala) they will make ISE difficult, not by HP but by actual buffs/debuffs that all other NPCs(even borg) use everywhere else, only not in ISA.
They have abused DPS to sell gear, ship traits etc. but it has become so toxic, all that nonsense about "PUG LyfE and DPS wizardry" that cryptic must radically change their approach of catering to select audience and pushing players in niches. DPS, PvP, RP, whatever. Give enough balanced options and people will naturally choose what they enjoy.
Give them 2 easy missions and one easy patrol and you'll get what you'll get. Empty queues.
Because DPS and power creep sells.
I still think that there are other ways they can sell ships and gear/entice people to upgrade without furthering power creep and 'invalidating' older gear/builds. New abilities (Command is a great example, but a lot of skills there need a buff), unique playstyles (actually useful Carriers), new mechanics, etc etc.
The 5 man private Q is responsible for most of that as you well know...
Um...all I do is public queue pug. Those were public queue pugs. Everything I post like that is from a public queue pug. I don't do channel runs. I'd have to hit up the DPS League tables and download logs to get any channel data.
I've got 63 saved runs there. Let's use a random number generator to pick three. I'll use the one at random.org to get three numbers: 23, 6, 12.
Player Base Damage: 19,989,811
Player Actual Damage: 26,376,066 (~131.9%)
Incoming Base Damage: 4,428,779
Incoming Actual Damage: 1,334,674 (~30.1%)
Player Healing: 924,156 (2 deaths, 2 players)
Player Base Damage: 21,566,742
Player Actual Damage: 27,180,933 (~126.0%)
Incoming Base Damage: 6,228,189
Incoming Actual Damage: 1,904,642 (~30.6%)
Player Healing: 1,534,108 (2 deaths, 2 players)
Player Base Damage: 28,826,203
Player Actual Damage: 30,740,298 (~106.6%)
Incoming Base Damage: 7,989,026
Incoming Actual Damage: 2,634,812 (~33.0%)
Player Healing: 1,680.366 (1 death)
It's extremely rare for an ISA to fail because of a lack of DPS. It's usually folks DPSing off on some Sphere while chasing butterflies instead of trying to nail a Trans...or...it's outright trolls popping a Gen before the group's even halfway there or somebody R-TBR'ing the Nanites into the Trans to cause the fail.
I honestly wouldn't call the DPS-10k channel a DPS channel from what I saw of it and why I eventually left it (it's funny how many channels here and there I've been a part of, but I just run public queues - it's something to read while DOFFing or the like). It looked more like a Farming channel...just folks looking for quickish runs of content free from trolls. It would be the higher channels where folks are mainly tweaking their DPS and pushing the limits.
My runs average 10-12 minutes. I've had a few where we missed the optional...but we still got the Trans down before the Nanites could cause the fail. The trolls aren't frequent enough for me to want to give up a fun run (imho) in favor of a quick run. DPS 'n Speed just aren't my thing. I'm sure as Hell not putting out enough DPS to carry folks through a run even if I do the most DPS in a run from time to time.
Hrmm, makes me want to look at what folks are doing in those runs (it's a Sunday, there's no football, and I'm bored)...
...all public queue pug runs. I can look at the dates to see that I've had about 7 failed runs (I usually won't do another run for a couple of days after a failed run, outside of folks trolling...there just really isn't a reason for it to fail, imho (fail that is, not miss the optional)).
So yeah, I'm going to stand by what I said...that as long as PvE is as easy as it is, there will not be a way to balance PvP and there will not be any way to balance PvE either.
Creating content that's not built for 5 players but simply tries to fill a certain amount of DPS? I just don't get that...why are you so focused on DPS? Are you one of those upper level DPS guys that actually enjoys DPS? I just don't get the focus there...cause it really doesn't take all that much DPS to complete ISA successfully...or...even to get the optional in ISA. It would be more about being one of the folks that wants the safe 'n easy fast 'n easy run sort of thing...which would be totally cool, mostly (from the point of view that different folks enjoy different things)...but that's not the angle I come form in the least.
Yeah, there are folks out there will have a cow that an ISA took 9 minutes or longer. Me, I look at it in the following way:
It's an Advanced STF.
-Advanced players would be running this content.
There's an Optional with a 15 minute CD that doesn't start until after the first engagement completes.
-Only the Advanced of the Advanced or the Elite players would be completing that Optional.
And again, imho, if that were more the case...then it wouldn't be as difficult to balance both PvP and PvE...as well as just balancing PvE.
Hell, if there were some fundamental balance (balance doesn't mean powercreep doesn't exist) in the game, then I think it would be a lot easier to balance all sorts of things in the game that are slightly out of whack.
edit: Based on the following post, I dropped the list into Excel, sorted it by team DPS, and dropped it out again.
Lol, the best thing I could gather from virus' last post is that more DPS doesn't always translate into shorter ISA. A couple of those outliers in there shows it. Probably some runs with a couple of people showering everything on sight with FAW without accomplishing anything with it.
It's not something I'd really noticed, since I was just typing it out while listening to some 80s music on Spotify.
I still think that there are other ways they can sell ships and gear/entice people to upgrade without furthering power creep and 'invalidating' older gear/builds. New abilities (Command is a great example, but a lot of skills there need a buff), unique playstyles (actually useful Carriers), new mechanics, etc etc.
Yes, they are now trying to repair the toxic damage of DPS gushing and Argala Rising.
I mean, Virus has adeptly compared it to "lobbing nuclear bombs in gold fish tanks", it can maybe be fun for some people for some time, but that as a pinnacle of gameplay STO has to offer along with 100 parked Argala grinders?? Cryptic can't let that slide anymore, that cow is milked.
Now actual gameplay improvements need to follow instead of catering to instant gratification.
Lol, the best thing I could gather from virus' last post is that more DPS doesn't always translate into shorter ISA. A couple of those outliers in there shows it. Probably some runs with a couple of people showering everything on sight with FAW without accomplishing anything with it.
ferent, if NPC's in this game weren't...well, um...
blocks of hitpoints sliding along a scripted track. i.e. there might be a point to having that ACC score for Surgical in PvE if there were PvE opponents that you actually needed it for.
(There aren't).
Surgical Strike is a very effective ability to destroy Tritium Torpedos during Korfez boss fight. And since I am mostly the only one, who takes care of them, SS is a must have there.
It is also useful for intercepting Vaadwaur in the asteroid field.
Means "dreams" or "waits" (even "sleeps") not a good use of the word. Lovecraft should never be shortend or converted to "Leet Speak", If Army of Darkness taught us anything, it's never mess with eldrich words of power.
************************
I use SS3 and BFAW in pve, , and I think they work well. Not to derail the thread, but why is SS not doing what it appears to do for me in PVE? I use an Eclipse (leech and and other lobi cons, AP crit cons, etc), but the power seems to help me. Help as in, it seems, I blow through PVE faster than before, not that it was ever a challenge.
Just a question. I don't have a care what they do/balence the power to, not like PVE is hard or I havn't switched builds before.
Honestly crit stacking my AP beam build ship, having this power seemed to help, am I missing something? Should I share CD 2 BFAW?
Well congrats. Now you people complaining about DR finally know who to thank for it lol.
How about a round of applause for teh Deeps crowd for DR.
Really, this sentence had to be in [irony]-tags to be recognized as such?
Currently the only thing you need to not fail an advanced STF is a single sciship, so I never fully understand the extend of rant about DR. I am unhappy with just pumping more HP into NPC instead of giving them a real AI, but in the end it was ineviteable, as cryptic always goes the easy way. I mean, when [over] didnt work, they simply changed BO (and said that wouldnt have anything to do with it, as if).
Comments
If SS were superior in PvE, the entire DPS-League to wouldn't be using BFAW. I have still to hear a counter against that. And no, blustering, name-calling, making it out as if PvE-ers are starting a fight here, because us PvE-ers can't win in PvP (Haha! That was a good one!), none of that counts as a counter, btw.
Make me a case that shows why the entire DPS-League top should be using SS, instead of BFAW, and you've won. Show me how RyanSTO can do more DPS with SS than with BFAW, and you've won. You can't, of course. Yes, I know, more ridicule will follow, more personal attacks, more whatever, but none in the way of actually countering the argument.
Simple fact remains: y'all botched your case when you started claiming SS was OP in PvE too. You should have stuck to making a case for PvP.
Where was that said?
Er...it was PvE folks that were making that claim. That's where I edited some of my earlier inflammatory comments replacing them with the link to the math post instead. Cause it was kind of mind-boggling. Go back and read through some of those early PvE posts...where folks are talking about how PvE can't be done without the damage from SS. It was a total wtf moment reading some of the reasons given for not looking at SS...actually looking at it is what suggests that it's mostly on par with other things...it's their defense of it which would actually bring about some kind of nerf to it.
BTW, along those lines of what they were saying there and how it drew attention to it even though they may have thought they were defending it...
...have you considered what going on and on about FAW being superior to everything else kind of means?
SS1's LCdr
SS2/3's Cmdr
Eclipse Intel Cruiser
Phantom Intel Escort
Scryer Intel Science Vessel
Qib Intel Battlecruiser
Faeht Intel Warbird
Elachi Sheshar Dreadnought Cruiser
Are the only six boats that can run Surgical Strikes.
Guess what, I challenged him 1v1 T5U and still refused. For all the lame excuses he can possibly say, compared to me, you, sherlock, nando, sativa, colonel, and the other guys from OPVP he's a NPC. He can't fight a human mind, doesn't have nor the skills nor the knowledge to build and use a ship to do that, not even if I gave him my Aventine, I'm pretty sure the first complain I'd hear is why there are no tactical consoles loaded. Even if I gave him my Tempest build and give him the time to mirror it for a 1v1 he'd still chicken out.
Basically they say one thing, negate it later, affirm it again creating a contrast, adjust it, negate it -> repeat. Their drug dealer is a good one.
The 5 man private Q is responsible for most of that as you well know allowing 5 veteran players to go into content and obliterate it in mere seconds ..then cryptic using that data to make changes to the content.
using private Q data to balance content is so wrong on so many levels its criminal
As I suggested the Qs / content needs to be staffed with DPS value of the players...not
X number of players ( 5 )
players need to be united not gated apart from each other so new players can be taught by veterans
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Guess what? I'm still not accepting your challenge.
And, like I said, more ridicule was sure to follow, and personal attacks, and what not. Also, as expected; you are that Scorpio: you just kinda do what you do. Constant as the Northern star.
Yo were first here to complain on Nerfing SS as it would be weak in PvE and now you saying no one is using it in PvE anyway, like i have been saying all along.
Pure BS, you can't fool me.
Super SpecialStar Trek Online Review
SpecialTemporal PUG 100K DPS Build
We are Travelers
The fact you'd accept would make you earn my respect and a spot in my friend list, TRIBBLE the outcome of the match, I don't look at it much. If you want to have a 1v1, drop me a PM, or even just the handle so I can add you
What kind of problems do you have? The fact you don't accept a challenge because you're scared of the outcome is enough. You can't even support your theories and you pretend to be right. Learn from Patrick, learn to be humble as your thoughts are leaking on every side. Sharx's post is the proof.
Nope, never said no one is using it in PvE: pure strawman. I, for one, am using it in PvE. :P If, for nothing else, simply because I feel my Phantom was made for it; and it's a refreshing new ability, instead of ever doing BFAW. I *did*, however, say SS is not superior in PvE, let alone OP. In fact, many of the DPS-League folks keep asking me why I don't use BFAW, like they do. And, indeed, in an ISA, for example, I'm usually the only one using SS. But guess what?! I like it that way.
Oh, and 'first here to complain on Nerfing SS' was the topic starter, of course. But just so we're clear on it: I absolutely do not want to see SS nerfed for PvE, albeit that I can probably live with not having the [Acc] bonus any more, if push came to shove.
"We werent able to come to an agreement so I had to challenge him. Unfortunately you cant smash someones face..ehm ship without asking them first. Would have been far easier if we had met in real life."
Is what your post reads for me. Why not just agree to disagree instead of throwing -imaginare- fists in the air?
This certain dpser would more likely ask why you use beams on a perfectly fine escort
Since he thinks that X ability doesn't need a nerf, he must have knowledge of game mechanics. Since we couldn't come to an agreement (and never will probably) I challenged him to support his own theories, give me proof that he's right on what he's saying. He can't do that. Between PvPers we would have already done that, reached an agreement and the losing side would have probably an improved build by asking for suggestions, instead of endlessly rage like everyone but PvPers are doing here.
You just don't stop trying, do you?! LOL. Um, no? Again.
The 'problem' that you perceive me as having, is called self-control. I do not jump thru someone else's hoops merely because they try and goat me in to doing so. And nothing for me to be afraid of, either: I would lose, 5-0, no doubt about it. I wouldn't stand a chance.
What is interesting, though, is why you, the big bad PvP-er, are trying to get your jollies off challenging me, the not even human 'NPC', to a duel. What glory could possibly be had by winning such a victory? I have some Klingon friends I can refer you to, that could possibly teach you a thing or two about an honorable fight. Or a few Hirogen, maybe, about seeking worthy prey.
STO was never about balance, except a short period after launch.
It is an arms race for the next OP pay2win stuff, so get your wallets ready.
Something I don't understand:
With 100% crit 150k Isokinetic Cannon hits, 100% crit TBR III dealing 30k per pulse and most DPS dealt by secondary procs, instead of main weaponary...is there any serious reason to still PvP?
Unlike PvP players, the minority who live in heir own "balanced" world, I agree with keeping SS III OP as long as it helps to fight hp bags in PvE.
Holy Grail of Gamification is Addiction | 5 Ways to Accomplisch | and the Psychology of Freemium
Because it isnt, and at the same time it is. For PvE its working quite fine, but doesnt outshine FAW or CSV. That its OP in pvp can very well be. That taking away acc wouldnt do anything for pve isnt entirely true too, as acc-overflow would work with it (in comparison to the rest its of course a small influence). Now, on the one side we have someone claiming its horrible OP, and on the other we have someone claiming its not. And both are actually right. In there own realms they are correct.
The pvp-match would only bring a conclussion with pvp-players, but even if he were to acknowledge that its op in pvp (since you already said he is likely a bad pvp-player, your win would be meaningless btw.), it still wouldnt be in pve. And that is the focal point of your discussion.
TBH I am not surprised. I always though it is impossible to kill a dead thing
Funny how you're depicting me as the one completely mad. I assure you couldn't be more relaxed right now. But again, I still can't get one of your previous posts. I try, and I try, but...
...since when the Quantum Focused Shield Bubble can be used on every ship? ._." That's exactly what you meant there, assuming it as the way to counter SS3, when only one ship is able to do so, to my knowledge.
Am I missing something, or the Experimental Systems set is Vesta/Rademaker/Aventine exclusive?
And since when FBP is the guaranteed way to score a kill, no matter the ship you're flying?
It would be great to know how I can slot the Quantum Shield on my Tempest, Scimitar, Intrepid. My attempts to do so have failed.
What counts as the lower tiers of the DPS crew? I'm usually around 17-22k, and I once spiked up to a 30K ISA.
I don't use SS. All it takes is FAW.
I've used FAW in an Avenger, FPE-r, and (Tac) Vesta, putting up that 17-22k range.
I can do the same with in an totally non-upgraded, non-Neutronic using Torp Boat. Average around 19k - in my PvP build, that's more focused on team and individual healing + resists instead of AoE spam.
You don't need SS to be part of that DPS crew.
And also you say that PvP has been destroyed 50 times in last 2 years
This thread has started at the bottom and has rapidly descended from there.
Well congrats. Now you people complaining about DR finally know who to thank for it lol.
How about a round of applause for teh Deeps crowd for DR.
BTW you might wanna check what is Cryptic doing lately, namely they are backpedalling to pre DR.
Super SpecialStar Trek Online Review
SpecialTemporal PUG 100K DPS Build
We are Travelers
You forgot Beam Overloads doing insane Crits (with increased bleedthrough, thanks to the DOff) as well.
You're right, there are quite a few things that are out of whack right now.
But, we've been slowing chipping away at it - Ionic, Neutronic, EAP. We're getting there.
What people fail to realize is that everything were brought down a notch to a more manageable level, NPC HP could be brought down as well (provided that Cryptic saw reason and recognized their mistake in just dumping more HP - there's no reason to have 500k non-Boss level NPCs).
Developers had same idea of pumping HP to players in arena and on PvP subforum we have promptly all agreed that would be very wrong and other issues need to be adressed first like disproportional stacking res debuffs and effective damage resulting from that.
They have tried (with RnD revamp) to push numbers up so people would bite and upgrade.
And it worked to some extent. Then they have further increased damage scaling on MK XIII and MK XIV, but such disproportional damage has shown it's ugly face- All queues started to be empty except for ISA and CCA: i half of space active players were at DPS channels chasing numbers and other half was orbiting Argala.
Game came to borefest before last patch, which was first step in right direction since RnD revamp.
Further more, only reason that they haven't brought back elite Infected, Cure, CC and Khitomer is because difficulty level would eat upp al those shiny gold DPS numbers from epic Mk XIV weapons.
But that's coming next, and if they have learned anything(and it seems that they have by expanding patrol system and locking out argala) they will make ISE difficult, not by HP but by actual buffs/debuffs that all other NPCs(even borg) use everywhere else, only not in ISA.
They have abused DPS to sell gear, ship traits etc. but it has become so toxic, all that nonsense about "PUG LyfE and DPS wizardry" that cryptic must radically change their approach of catering to select audience and pushing players in niches. DPS, PvP, RP, whatever. Give enough balanced options and people will naturally choose what they enjoy.
Give them 2 easy missions and one easy patrol and you'll get what you'll get. Empty queues.
Super SpecialStar Trek Online Review
SpecialTemporal PUG 100K DPS Build
We are Travelers
Because DPS and power creep sells.
I still think that there are other ways they can sell ships and gear/entice people to upgrade without furthering power creep and 'invalidating' older gear/builds. New abilities (Command is a great example, but a lot of skills there need a buff), unique playstyles (actually useful Carriers), new mechanics, etc etc.
Um...all I do is public queue pug. Those were public queue pugs. Everything I post like that is from a public queue pug. I don't do channel runs. I'd have to hit up the DPS League tables and download logs to get any channel data.
I've got 63 saved runs there. Let's use a random number generator to pick three. I'll use the one at random.org to get three numbers: 23, 6, 12.
Player Base Damage: 19,989,811
Player Actual Damage: 26,376,066 (~131.9%)
Incoming Base Damage: 4,428,779
Incoming Actual Damage: 1,334,674 (~30.1%)
Player Healing: 924,156 (2 deaths, 2 players)
Player Base Damage: 21,566,742
Player Actual Damage: 27,180,933 (~126.0%)
Incoming Base Damage: 6,228,189
Incoming Actual Damage: 1,904,642 (~30.6%)
Player Healing: 1,534,108 (2 deaths, 2 players)
Player Base Damage: 28,826,203
Player Actual Damage: 30,740,298 (~106.6%)
Incoming Base Damage: 7,989,026
Incoming Actual Damage: 2,634,812 (~33.0%)
Player Healing: 1,680.366 (1 death)
It's extremely rare for an ISA to fail because of a lack of DPS. It's usually folks DPSing off on some Sphere while chasing butterflies instead of trying to nail a Trans...or...it's outright trolls popping a Gen before the group's even halfway there or somebody R-TBR'ing the Nanites into the Trans to cause the fail.
I honestly wouldn't call the DPS-10k channel a DPS channel from what I saw of it and why I eventually left it (it's funny how many channels here and there I've been a part of, but I just run public queues - it's something to read while DOFFing or the like). It looked more like a Farming channel...just folks looking for quickish runs of content free from trolls. It would be the higher channels where folks are mainly tweaking their DPS and pushing the limits.
My runs average 10-12 minutes. I've had a few where we missed the optional...but we still got the Trans down before the Nanites could cause the fail. The trolls aren't frequent enough for me to want to give up a fun run (imho) in favor of a quick run. DPS 'n Speed just aren't my thing. I'm sure as Hell not putting out enough DPS to carry folks through a run even if I do the most DPS in a run from time to time.
Hrmm, makes me want to look at what folks are doing in those runs (it's a Sunday, there's no football, and I'm bored)...
72699 - 19314 - 17495 - 8827 - 2952 (4:45 minutes) 121287 team DPS
79860 - 15750 - 11233 - 10216 - 3703 (4:59 minutes) 120762 team DPS
48061 - 17688 - 12299 - 9019 - 6531 (4:57 minutes) 93598 team DPS
47368 - 14394 - 13822 - 10048 - 7791 (6:43 minutes) 93423 team DPS
38120 - 20558 - 16802 - 13526 - 1353 (6:40 minutes) 90359 team DPS
37339 - 29177 - 10871 - 9001 - 3397 (7:02 minutes) 89785 team DPS
30826 - 19600 - 18543 - 10438 - 7258 (7:27 minutes) 86665 team DPS
33075 - 21552 - 16139 - 6890 - 7011 (5:54 minutes) 84667 team DPS
21181 - 20746 - 18457 - 10280 - 8855 (5:46 minutes) 79519 team DPS
25351 - 20695 - 18910 - 7056 - 6637 (5:38 minutes) 78649 team DPS
26857 - 23946 - 11207 - 7191 - 5137 (6:47 minutes) 74338 team DPS
44937 - 17119 - 5411 - 3890 - 2642 (8:35 minutes) 73999 team DPS
22610 - 17383 - 14033 - 12503 - 7267 (9:08 minutes) 73796 team DPS
32703 - 18627 - 16980 - 3192 - 2230 (6:21 minutes) 73732 team DPS
33831 - 16792 - 12733 - 6367 - 3060 (6:26 minutes) 72783 team DPS
20634 - 17286 - 17326 - 11605 - 5840 (8:21 minutes) 72691 team DPS
22951 - 19281 - 14216 - 10659 - 4497 (8:41 minutes) 71604 team DPS
24865 - 19729 - 9958 - 7776 - 7346 (6:20 minutes) 69674 team DPS
33170 - 21540 - 5550 - 5112 - 4250 (6:40 minutes) 69622 team DPS
19297 - 18419 - 16675 - 10254 - 3990 (6:50 minutes) 68635 team DPS
22654 - 18058 - 16120 - 8499 - 2580 (6:55 minutes) 67911 team DPS
25939 - 13024 - 11733 - 10211 - 6975 (9:04 minutes) 67882 team DPS
24306 - 16482 - 10807 - 8391 - 7800 (9:00 minutes) 67786 team DPS
36511 - 14461 - 8916 - 2224 - 1913 (9:10 minutes) 64025 team DPS
33623 - 18923 - 5105 - 4070 - 1880 (7:37 minutes) 63601 team DPS
25044 - 22846 - 8082 - 3418 - 3206 (7:52 minutes) 62596 team DPS
25757 - 14720 - 13451 - 5167 - 2679 (10:26 minutes) 61774 team DPS
20435 - 15437 - 13046 - 7271 - 4824 (10:50 minutes) 61013 team DPS
17287 - 12941 - 11700 - 8534 - 9383 (9:05 minutes) 59845 team DPS
16329 - 13736 - 13704 - 9530 - 6151 (11:21 minutes) 59450 team DPS
17299 - 14058 - 12618 - 7327 - 7089 (8:19 minutes) 58391 team DPS
19536 - 12590 - 11255 - 7333 - 6144 (8:55 minutes) 56858 team DPS
21261 - 15825 - 12892 - 4323 - 1644 (7:56 minutes) 55855 team DPS
26290 - 13463 - 7412 - 5155 - 2574 (11:22 minutes) 54894 team DPS
19635 - 13514 - 12889 - 5259 - 2137 (11:34 minutes) 53434 team DPS
14480 - 12567 - 10433 - 10241 - 5239 (11:37 minutes) 52960 team DPS
18502 - 14894 - 12989 - 3909 - 2510 (11:20 minutes) 52804 team DPS
19123 - 12929 - 10070 - 4932 - 4773 (9:10 minutes) 51827 team DPS
18172 - 12664 - 10527 - 7175 - 2768 (11:30 minutes) 51306 team DPS
17917 - 11125 - 10511 - 7735 - 2826 (12:08 minutes) 50114 team DPS
18292 - 10847 - 9463 - 6475 - 4407 (12:06 minutes) 49484 team DPS
27386 - 9861 - 5856 - 3467 - 2839 (13:19 minutes) 49409 team DPS
22966 - 15003 - 5442 - 3687 - 2000 (9:27 minutes) 49098 team DPS
17337 - 10521 - 8707 - 8489 - 2593 (14:35 minutes) 47647 team DPS
16021 - 15511 - 10658 - 4190 - 1234 (10:14 minutes) 47614 team DPS
15378 - 12714 - 7269 - 6774 - 4090 (13:19 minutes) 46225 team DPS
20178 - 13901 - 4639 - 4399 - 1976 (10:09 minutes) 45093 team DPS
19641 - 9551 - 6327 - 4241 - 4192 (10:55 minutes) 43952 team DPS
21696 - 7430 - 4802 - 4120 - 5588 (11:34 minutes) 43636 team DPS
12380 - 11908 - 10285 - 7510 - 942 {dc'd} (14:22 minutes) 43025 team DPS
14672 - 9050 - 8644 - 6758 - 2955 (11:15 minutes) 42079 team DPS
12565 - 10893 - 8774 - 7301 - 2200 (14:39 minutes) 41733 team DPS
18893 - 8552 - 5453 - 5086 - 3726 (11:13 minutes) 41710 team DPS
19477 - 7770 - 6245 - 4269 - 3885 (11:12 minutes) 41646 team DPS
15775 - 11542 - 7325 - 5254 - 1363 (15:02 minutes) 41259 team DPS
20133 - 6576 - 6047 - 5430 - 2969 (12:30 minutes) 41155 team DPS
14782 - 10273 - 9285 - 4204 - 2095 (16:04 minutes) 40639 team DPS
15559 - 11709 - 4755 - 4491 - 3797 (15:51 minutes) 40311 team DPS
14517 - 10161 - 10025 - 2810 - 1348 (12:40 minutes) 39316 team DPS
14692 - 7577 - 7441 - 4716 - 4491 (17:29 minutes) 38917 team DPS
18698 - 6359 - 5387 - 4502 - 3660 (12:53 minutes) 38606 team DPS
14881 - 9131 - 5089 - 4192 - 3504 (12:50 minutes) 36797 team DPS
12406 - 11133 - 5113 - 4315 - 2894 (18:34 minutes) 35861 team DPS
...all public queue pug runs. I can look at the dates to see that I've had about 7 failed runs (I usually won't do another run for a couple of days after a failed run, outside of folks trolling...there just really isn't a reason for it to fail, imho (fail that is, not miss the optional)).
So yeah, I'm going to stand by what I said...that as long as PvE is as easy as it is, there will not be a way to balance PvP and there will not be any way to balance PvE either.
Creating content that's not built for 5 players but simply tries to fill a certain amount of DPS? I just don't get that...why are you so focused on DPS? Are you one of those upper level DPS guys that actually enjoys DPS? I just don't get the focus there...cause it really doesn't take all that much DPS to complete ISA successfully...or...even to get the optional in ISA. It would be more about being one of the folks that wants the safe 'n easy fast 'n easy run sort of thing...which would be totally cool, mostly (from the point of view that different folks enjoy different things)...but that's not the angle I come form in the least.
Yeah, there are folks out there will have a cow that an ISA took 9 minutes or longer. Me, I look at it in the following way:
It's an Advanced STF.
-Advanced players would be running this content.
There's an Optional with a 15 minute CD that doesn't start until after the first engagement completes.
-Only the Advanced of the Advanced or the Elite players would be completing that Optional.
And again, imho, if that were more the case...then it wouldn't be as difficult to balance both PvP and PvE...as well as just balancing PvE.
Hell, if there were some fundamental balance (balance doesn't mean powercreep doesn't exist) in the game, then I think it would be a lot easier to balance all sorts of things in the game that are slightly out of whack.
edit: Based on the following post, I dropped the list into Excel, sorted it by team DPS, and dropped it out again.
It's not something I'd really noticed, since I was just typing it out while listening to some 80s music on Spotify.
Free Tibet!
I mean, Virus has adeptly compared it to "lobbing nuclear bombs in gold fish tanks", it can maybe be fun for some people for some time, but that as a pinnacle of gameplay STO has to offer along with 100 parked Argala grinders?? Cryptic can't let that slide anymore, that cow is milked.
Now actual gameplay improvements need to follow instead of catering to instant gratification.
Super SpecialStar Trek Online Review
SpecialTemporal PUG 100K DPS Build
We are Travelers
Surgical Strike is a very effective ability to destroy Tritium Torpedos during Korfez boss fight. And since I am mostly the only one, who takes care of them, SS is a must have there.
It is also useful for intercepting Vaadwaur in the asteroid field.
Holy Grail of Gamification is Addiction | 5 Ways to Accomplisch | and the Psychology of Freemium
Not a proper quote.
Means "dreams" or "waits" (even "sleeps") not a good use of the word. Lovecraft should never be shortend or converted to "Leet Speak", If Army of Darkness taught us anything, it's never mess with eldrich words of power.
************************
I use SS3 and BFAW in pve, , and I think they work well. Not to derail the thread, but why is SS not doing what it appears to do for me in PVE? I use an Eclipse (leech and and other lobi cons, AP crit cons, etc), but the power seems to help me. Help as in, it seems, I blow through PVE faster than before, not that it was ever a challenge.
Just a question. I don't have a care what they do/balence the power to, not like PVE is hard or I havn't switched builds before.
Honestly crit stacking my AP beam build ship, having this power seemed to help, am I missing something? Should I share CD 2 BFAW?
Thanks for any answers.
Really, this sentence had to be in [irony]-tags to be recognized as such?
Currently the only thing you need to not fail an advanced STF is a single sciship, so I never fully understand the extend of rant about DR. I am unhappy with just pumping more HP into NPC instead of giving them a real AI, but in the end it was ineviteable, as cryptic always goes the easy way. I mean, when [over] didnt work, they simply changed BO (and said that wouldnt have anything to do with it, as if).