Lol, the best thing I could gather from virus' last post is that more DPS doesn't always translate into shorter ISA. A couple of those outliers in there shows it. Probably some runs with a couple of people showering everything on sight with FAW without accomplishing anything with it.
Heh, the point I was trying to make with part of that post was that folks are all over the place when it comes to DPS there, give some examples of the overall team DPS requirements to get the optional, and how small that is to potential...and thus there is no actual way to balance PvE, much less try to make it a PvP vs. PvE issue.
Along the lines of if somebody came along and asked you to build a drain boat...asked me to build a drain boat. Your boat would drain them in no time. My boat would leave them feeling drained after a few hours of waiting for something to happen.
Same thing would happen with SS. Get me to build a Surgical boat and get a "Wizard" to build a Surgical boat. They'll be done and off playing 18 holes of golf...I'll be giggling (a manly giggle, damn it!) while broadsiding with DHCs.
So in the context of what's going on with SS in PvP...is it everybody that's using it that's slaughtering folks left, right, and center? Or is it a case, as it is with almost everything in this game, that there is a "potential" end of the spectrum that's running at Warp Speed Ludicrous compared to other end of that spectrum and even the "average" player mucking about with stuff?
Some folks have suggested caps and diminishing returns, which kind of makes me chuckle. Cause to me, that basically reads like they want to stay where they are but make those that are better than them worse. I mean, lol, seriously? Course, I tend to suggest making everybody worse by changing the overall scaling - and yeah, nobody seems to like that idea. I just think if Cryptic had a more controlled range, they could better balance PvE and thus PvP would be easier to balance as a side-effect of that.
Going back to that ISA stuff...I think it was 3, maybe 4 - pretty sure it was 3, where the optional was not met. Again, to me...it's an Advanced STF...with an Optional...so it should be Advanced Players running it and the Advanced of the Advanced or the Elite that are getting the Optional. Looking at the dates on the runs, looks like there were around 7 failed runs I think, 6-7, I'll go high with 7. 63 successful, 7 failures, and of those 63 successful 3 didn't get the optional.
90.0% success rate for public queue pug?
85.7% success rate for the optional from a public queue pug?
Some folks out there want to go after the DPS League, various private channels, and all the rest saying that they're the reasons Cryptic is making things harder, nerfing this, etc, etc, etc. That's as much scapegoating as it is when folks try to make it a PvP vs. PvE thing.
If I were to have grabbed some random data that came out with that 90.0%/85.7% sort of thing, I'm going to start looking into what is wrong with the content...it's Advanced, it's an Optional in an Advanced...just random groups of folks are flying around in circles and getting it done...that's not very Advanced.
So if Cryptic were to tackle the content there...wouldn't a side-effect be some trimming of some of the DPS potential, as folks would have to deal with the threat NPCs might actually pose for a change? If folks had to build more balanced, more generalized, or decided to fly with friends allowing for more specialized roles with coverage...wouldn't a lot of things start taking care of themselves?
If NPCs used more abilities that needed to be countered - if NPCs countered more abilities that players use...etc, etc, etc.
Yeah, it basically gets into if PvE were more like PvP then it would be easier to balance PvP...than with what PvE is right now which is so extremely different than PvP.
And yeah, I know, there are plenty of folks that are perfectly happy with coming home at the end of the day so they can go slaughter some NPCs to get their Star Trek kick. :rolleyes:
Even though we generally knew that our "heroes" from the shows and movies were going to win out in the end, they were still presented with a "threat" where they did not know if they were going to win out in the end. That's missing from STO. Could you imagine how extremely boring the shows/movies would have been if they were like the PvE in STO? It would be more like a trip to Walmart to buy some toilet paper for all the boldly going one would have to do versus exploring strange new worlds and the potential dangers that exist in the vastness of space.
90.0% success rate for public queue pug?
85.7% success rate for the optional from a public queue pug?
I seem to remember that there is a general idea for "gaming psychology" that a 75 % success ratio is deemed "satisfying" for players. Seems STO still has some way to go.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I seem to remember that there is a general idea for "gaming psychology" that a 75 % success ratio is deemed "satisfying" for players. Seems STO still has some way to go.
I will ask you this: do you remember games, levels or missions that you passed in first try or that 75% success ratre?
In STO it is inevitable to repeat stuff so things that I remember were particularly extra hard against all odds PvP games or beating PUG HSE when it first came out in defiant with blue gear after entire team exploded 20 times or so.
Dumbing down content so that a guy that made no effort has 75% chance to finish it is bad idea in the long run because only "challenge" left with so high success ratio is to chase higher DPS.
I said it few times: Make Elite missions hard, at the very least as hard and varied as Battle of Korfez, push the rewards for completing optionals which can be made especially hard to complete, because reward of few extra marks for optional is just a sign that it is easy to do it.
Optional objectives like "don't enter fluidic bubble" or don't fall in toxic puddle are BS in practice, better make personal optional objectives like "don't die" "directly kill 20 enemies" "heal teammates for 200k HP" "disable 10 enemies" etc. etc.
Finish the mission in x:xx is a bad objective unless the mission's time requirement is not based on DPS.
In my opinion, if a mission team reward parameters are made too specific/depend on pushing out high damage: it pushes players in niches and elitist groups and diversity is excluded. Which is how we got here BTW.
Also rewards for completing extremely hard objectives should be very generous(materials, items)
Of course some will complain that they can't complete extremely hard objectives with extremely low effort but you're not gonna balance the ELITE difficulty around them right?
Yes, in the end, PvE should be not so much different then PvP as it is now in popular ISA and CCA missions which are basically target practice on unshielded and unbuffed enemies.
I will ask you this: do you remember games, levels or missions that you passed in first try or that 75% success ratre?
In STO it is inevitable to repeat stuff so things that I remember were particularly extra hard against all odds PvP games or beating PUG HSE when it first came out in defiant with blue gear after entire team exploded 20 times or so.
Dumbing down content so that a guy that made no effort has 75% chance to finish it is bad idea in the long run because only "challenge" left with so high success ratio is to chase higher DPS.
STO's success rate is, at least going by virusdancer statistics, still notably above 75 %.
So it's not about dumbing down the game. It's about making it a bit harder.
I'd say a 25 % failure rate for the first try on any "Normal" difficulty STF is not unreasonable. And eventualy, for the elite of the leite, a 25 % failure rate for Elite content may also be a good benchmark.
Not sure where to settle Advanced. I suppose once you succeeded Normal difficulty STFs a few times, you should be able to move up to Advanced, and initially also experience a 25 % failure rate. Once you go beyond that, you can try Elite difficulty...
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I don't think Surgical Strikes itself is broken, because it can be countered with FBP and other damage reflect powers, and the results are usually spectacular.
What's broken, is the fact that you can use Surgical Strikes to shoot an FBPer, kill him, pop Rock & Roll, and thus prevent the FBP reflection from killing you back.
I don't think Surgical Strikes itself is broken, because it can be countered with FBP and other damage reflect powers, and the results are usually spectacular.
What's broken, is the fact that you can use Surgical Strikes to shoot an FBPer, kill him, pop Rock & Roll, and thus prevent the FBP reflection from killing you back.
You already have opened a thread in which you practically you want Rock&Roll nerfed and people already responded on this subject.
"There already is a Borg faction, its called the Federation. They assimilate everyone else's technology and remove any biological or technical distinctiveness and add it to their own."
I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
I don't think Surgical Strikes itself is broken, because it can be countered with FBP and other damage reflect powers, and the results are usually spectacular.
What's broken, is the fact that you can use Surgical Strikes to shoot an FBPer, kill him, pop Rock & Roll, and thus prevent the FBP reflection from killing you back.
Fbp is broken also..that's next on the list once ss3 is sorted.
While ss3 exists however 2 wrongs do in fact make a right!:)
I don't think Surgical Strikes itself is broken, because it can be countered with FBP and other damage reflect powers, and the results are usually spectacular.
What's broken, is the fact that you can use Surgical Strikes to shoot an FBPer, kill him, pop Rock & Roll, and thus prevent the FBP reflection from killing you back.
*badum tss*
Like if every ship, every captain is specced for particle generators and run FBP effectively.
What's broken is the ability dude. All you want is Rock & Roll nerfed, you won't fool me. And it's not the first time you try.
So youre completely okay with an ability that can give you a burst of immunity but not an ability that effectively targets you?
Now we're starting to see why youre on a crusade to nerf SS.
Rock and Roll makes the ship gain a burst of momentum to move, ignores the incoming damage for a few seconds, BUT it has 1 minute cooldown, while SS3 can go down to 15s global. Before R&R is active, you've been through potentially 4 cycles of SS3.
FBP without particle generators isn't worth the slot. get your facts right man.
Rock and Roll makes the ship gain a burst of momentum to move, ignores the incoming damage for a few seconds, BUT it has 1 minute cooldown, while SS3 can go down to 15s global. Before R&R is active, you've been through potentially 4 cycles of SS3.
FBP without particle generators isn't worth the slot. get your facts right man.
Few observations:
a) RnR BO/SS strike is abused to surpass FBP, and it's the basically only why BO/SS people use it lol
b) for spike FBP you don't even need high PrtG, 3-6 bars in skill points on tac captain is enough to wipe out entire team focusing on you with alpha FBP like i have shown before.
c) number of ships that can and will equip double SS on their ships is less then 2 in pvp i would bet, nor practical reason to do it. BO3, TS3, , OSS3, HY3 are all better the SS1.
Satchmok deals 45306 (68465) Phaser Damage(Critical) to you with Bio-Molecular Phaser Dual Heavy Cannons - Surgical Strikes III.
Satchmok deals 45836 (59032) Phaser Damage(Critical) to you with Bio-Molecular Phaser Dual Heavy Cannons - Surgical Strikes III.
90k damage in the blink of an eye.
Was killed through my 3pc Kobali set's Temp HP boost, Failsafe Scrambler, and my resists.
Who says it's not OP now?
I say it. You could also link how someone hit you for 150k or higher HY, BO, 100k per hit in torp spread, etc.
It certainly wasn't a blink of an eye because there had to be many stuff going on there for you to receive such high numbers. I never got hit for that high numbers by SS and i'm in ships with 30-50 resists with some spikes to 60 res.
I say it. You could also link how someone hit you for 150k or higher HY, BO, 100k per hit in torp spread, etc.
It certainly wasn't a blink of an eye because there had to be many stuff going on there for you to receive such high numbers. I never got hit for that high numbers by SS and i'm in ships with 30-50 resists with some spikes to 60 res.
BO aside, in order to get hit by something that hard, you need high enough of a CrtH with enough CrtD to make it smash.
SS does both for you. It's almost always a guaranteed spanking. Especially when combined with Rock n Roll to avoid FBP or SNB.
BO aside, in order to get hit by something that hard, you need high enough of a CrtH with enough CrtD to make it smash.
SS does both for you. It's almost always a guaranteed spanking. Especially when combined with Rock n Roll to avoid FBP or SNB.
Still think Rock and Roll should stop channels. You can't start something while doing Rock and Roll, so why should something be able to continue, eh? Isn't it a focus on defense there...pulling off that maneuver and so forth?
Course, that would ruin some fun I have with it...I like to EWP, R-TBR, and hit Rock and Roll...but it's something that's bugged me with that whole inability to trigger something new but it's fine to continue a chain? Cancel any chains...including weapon cycles...yeah?
Still think Rock and Roll should stop channels. You can't start something while doing Rock and Roll, so why should something be able to continue, eh? Isn't it a focus on defense there...pulling off that maneuver and so forth?
Course, that would ruin some fun I have with it...I like to EWP, R-TBR, and hit Rock and Roll...but it's something that's bugged me with that whole inability to trigger something new but it's fine to continue a chain? Cancel any chains...including weapon cycles...yeah?
So, basically: Make RocknRoll basically a quantum bubble (mechanicwise)? Nothing goes in, nothing goes out? That would make sense actually, and would be the result I would have expected after first reading the description.
So, basically: Make RocknRoll basically a quantum bubble (mechanicwise)? Nothing goes in, nothing goes out? That would make sense actually, and would be the result I would have expected after first reading the description.
IMHO, it's just one of those batch of things where the devs would probably say we take the game too seriously...where more thought in the design was given to fun than function.
Comments
Heh, the point I was trying to make with part of that post was that folks are all over the place when it comes to DPS there, give some examples of the overall team DPS requirements to get the optional, and how small that is to potential...and thus there is no actual way to balance PvE, much less try to make it a PvP vs. PvE issue.
Along the lines of if somebody came along and asked you to build a drain boat...asked me to build a drain boat. Your boat would drain them in no time. My boat would leave them feeling drained after a few hours of waiting for something to happen.
Same thing would happen with SS. Get me to build a Surgical boat and get a "Wizard" to build a Surgical boat. They'll be done and off playing 18 holes of golf...I'll be giggling (a manly giggle, damn it!) while broadsiding with DHCs.
So in the context of what's going on with SS in PvP...is it everybody that's using it that's slaughtering folks left, right, and center? Or is it a case, as it is with almost everything in this game, that there is a "potential" end of the spectrum that's running at Warp Speed Ludicrous compared to other end of that spectrum and even the "average" player mucking about with stuff?
Some folks have suggested caps and diminishing returns, which kind of makes me chuckle. Cause to me, that basically reads like they want to stay where they are but make those that are better than them worse. I mean, lol, seriously? Course, I tend to suggest making everybody worse by changing the overall scaling - and yeah, nobody seems to like that idea. I just think if Cryptic had a more controlled range, they could better balance PvE and thus PvP would be easier to balance as a side-effect of that.
Going back to that ISA stuff...I think it was 3, maybe 4 - pretty sure it was 3, where the optional was not met. Again, to me...it's an Advanced STF...with an Optional...so it should be Advanced Players running it and the Advanced of the Advanced or the Elite that are getting the Optional. Looking at the dates on the runs, looks like there were around 7 failed runs I think, 6-7, I'll go high with 7. 63 successful, 7 failures, and of those 63 successful 3 didn't get the optional.
90.0% success rate for public queue pug?
85.7% success rate for the optional from a public queue pug?
Some folks out there want to go after the DPS League, various private channels, and all the rest saying that they're the reasons Cryptic is making things harder, nerfing this, etc, etc, etc. That's as much scapegoating as it is when folks try to make it a PvP vs. PvE thing.
If I were to have grabbed some random data that came out with that 90.0%/85.7% sort of thing, I'm going to start looking into what is wrong with the content...it's Advanced, it's an Optional in an Advanced...just random groups of folks are flying around in circles and getting it done...that's not very Advanced.
So if Cryptic were to tackle the content there...wouldn't a side-effect be some trimming of some of the DPS potential, as folks would have to deal with the threat NPCs might actually pose for a change? If folks had to build more balanced, more generalized, or decided to fly with friends allowing for more specialized roles with coverage...wouldn't a lot of things start taking care of themselves?
If NPCs used more abilities that needed to be countered - if NPCs countered more abilities that players use...etc, etc, etc.
Yeah, it basically gets into if PvE were more like PvP then it would be easier to balance PvP...than with what PvE is right now which is so extremely different than PvP.
And yeah, I know, there are plenty of folks that are perfectly happy with coming home at the end of the day so they can go slaughter some NPCs to get their Star Trek kick. :rolleyes:
Even though we generally knew that our "heroes" from the shows and movies were going to win out in the end, they were still presented with a "threat" where they did not know if they were going to win out in the end. That's missing from STO. Could you imagine how extremely boring the shows/movies would have been if they were like the PvE in STO? It would be more like a trip to Walmart to buy some toilet paper for all the boldly going one would have to do versus exploring strange new worlds and the potential dangers that exist in the vastness of space.
edit: That PvE is too hard thread is killing me.
I will ask you this: do you remember games, levels or missions that you passed in first try or that 75% success ratre?
In STO it is inevitable to repeat stuff so things that I remember were particularly extra hard against all odds PvP games or beating PUG HSE when it first came out in defiant with blue gear after entire team exploded 20 times or so.
Dumbing down content so that a guy that made no effort has 75% chance to finish it is bad idea in the long run because only "challenge" left with so high success ratio is to chase higher DPS.
I said it few times: Make Elite missions hard, at the very least as hard and varied as Battle of Korfez, push the rewards for completing optionals which can be made especially hard to complete, because reward of few extra marks for optional is just a sign that it is easy to do it.
Optional objectives like "don't enter fluidic bubble" or don't fall in toxic puddle are BS in practice, better make personal optional objectives like "don't die" "directly kill 20 enemies" "heal teammates for 200k HP" "disable 10 enemies" etc. etc.
Finish the mission in x:xx is a bad objective unless the mission's time requirement is not based on DPS.
In my opinion, if a mission team reward parameters are made too specific/depend on pushing out high damage: it pushes players in niches and elitist groups and diversity is excluded. Which is how we got here BTW.
Also rewards for completing extremely hard objectives should be very generous(materials, items)
Of course some will complain that they can't complete extremely hard objectives with extremely low effort but you're not gonna balance the ELITE difficulty around them right?
@Virus
Yes, in the end, PvE should be not so much different then PvP as it is now in popular ISA and CCA missions which are basically target practice on unshielded and unbuffed enemies.
Super SpecialStar Trek Online Review
SpecialTemporal PUG 100K DPS Build
We are Travelers
:rolleyes:
So it's not about dumbing down the game. It's about making it a bit harder.
I'd say a 25 % failure rate for the first try on any "Normal" difficulty STF is not unreasonable. And eventualy, for the elite of the leite, a 25 % failure rate for Elite content may also be a good benchmark.
Not sure where to settle Advanced. I suppose once you succeeded Normal difficulty STFs a few times, you should be able to move up to Advanced, and initially also experience a 25 % failure rate. Once you go beyond that, you can try Elite difficulty...
What's broken, is the fact that you can use Surgical Strikes to shoot an FBPer, kill him, pop Rock & Roll, and thus prevent the FBP reflection from killing you back.
You already have opened a thread in which you practically you want Rock&Roll nerfed and people already responded on this subject.
I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
Fbp is broken also..that's next on the list once ss3 is sorted.
While ss3 exists however 2 wrongs do in fact make a right!:)
*badum tss*
Like if every ship, every captain is specced for particle generators and run FBP effectively.
What's broken is the ability dude. All you want is Rock & Roll nerfed, you won't fool me. And it's not the first time you try.
So youre completely okay with an ability that can give you a burst of immunity but not an ability that effectively targets you?
Now we're starting to see why youre on a crusade to nerf SS.
Rock and Roll makes the ship gain a burst of momentum to move, ignores the incoming damage for a few seconds, BUT it has 1 minute cooldown, while SS3 can go down to 15s global. Before R&R is active, you've been through potentially 4 cycles of SS3.
FBP without particle generators isn't worth the slot. get your facts right man.
a) RnR BO/SS strike is abused to surpass FBP, and it's the basically only why BO/SS people use it lol
b) for spike FBP you don't even need high PrtG, 3-6 bars in skill points on tac captain is enough to wipe out entire team focusing on you with alpha FBP like i have shown before.
c) number of ships that can and will equip double SS on their ships is less then 2 in pvp i would bet, nor practical reason to do it. BO3, TS3, , OSS3, HY3 are all better the SS1.
Super SpecialStar Trek Online Review
SpecialTemporal PUG 100K DPS Build
We are Travelers
Satchmok deals 45836 (59032) Phaser Damage(Critical) to you with Bio-Molecular Phaser Dual Heavy Cannons - Surgical Strikes III.
90k damage in the blink of an eye.
Was killed through my 3pc Kobali set's Temp HP boost, Failsafe Scrambler, and my resists.
Who says it's not OP now?
Vaping is whatever. It requires a bit more skill than simply clicking 1 button and hitting spacebar.
I say it. You could also link how someone hit you for 150k or higher HY, BO, 100k per hit in torp spread, etc.
It certainly wasn't a blink of an eye because there had to be many stuff going on there for you to receive such high numbers. I never got hit for that high numbers by SS and i'm in ships with 30-50 resists with some spikes to 60 res.
Super SpecialStar Trek Online Review
SpecialTemporal PUG 100K DPS Build
We are Travelers
BO aside, in order to get hit by something that hard, you need high enough of a CrtH with enough CrtD to make it smash.
SS does both for you. It's almost always a guaranteed spanking. Especially when combined with Rock n Roll to avoid FBP or SNB.
Still think Rock and Roll should stop channels. You can't start something while doing Rock and Roll, so why should something be able to continue, eh? Isn't it a focus on defense there...pulling off that maneuver and so forth?
Course, that would ruin some fun I have with it...I like to EWP, R-TBR, and hit Rock and Roll...but it's something that's bugged me with that whole inability to trigger something new but it's fine to continue a chain? Cancel any chains...including weapon cycles...yeah?
So, basically: Make RocknRoll basically a quantum bubble (mechanicwise)? Nothing goes in, nothing goes out? That would make sense actually, and would be the result I would have expected after first reading the description.
Keep that to yourself..Ive seen plenty of ships survive SS3 including my own..long enough to kill the Ss3 user all in a t5u
Rouge Sto Wiki Editor.
IMHO, it's just one of those batch of things where the devs would probably say we take the game too seriously...where more thought in the design was given to fun than function.