And to clear up one more thing.
People keep saying fantasy stuff like "it is not possible to make something behave like X in PvP but not in PvE and that it would cost unbelievable amounts of hours and money"
How about no?
Here is a quote from System Designer Borticus about fixing Ionic Turbulence:
So, you. See.
And to answer to this as well
Those numbers for spread with other torpedos are not correct for PvP. That is the issue. Only for neutronic.
1. repeating the fact. In the video i don't use torpedo boosting consoles. Damage is huge.
2. Neutronic torpedo eats through shields and applies huge AoE radiation DoT and subsys drain on top of it
3. It is indeed, not a single issue, but doesnt change the fact that no other torpedo on Spread can come even close to 200k marker per torp in PvE, or per spread vs 1 target in PvP
While on the flipside Neutronic TS1 is weak in comparison and Neutronic HY is so weak it is better to equip a Mk II photon in it's place, so to say.
How are the #'s for pvp not correct?
I have easily seen basic torpedoes accomplish this kind of chain dmg many times and, now made even greater with all the power creep, via specializations/traits!
It's not hard to imagine doing a spread, with basic torpedoes being able to eradicate PC's!
And, regarding the red, how exactly does this torpedo just magically eat thru shields?
It must accomplish this by damaging the shields with its kinetic dmg, the radiation dmg bypasses the shields yes and, it might deliver enough kinetic bang to cause dmg to shields but, overall I would say it's mainly due to mechanics allowing extra dmg to bypass shields, along with massive spike dmg from energy weapons attacks that soften the shields primarily.
People in pvp, are probably being caught with their pants down, by not carrying enough kinetic DR, thinking who in the right mind would use torpedoes in a pvp match, that compounds the issue even further!
I myself don't use torpedo tac consoles, yet have still eradicated PC's with torpedo salvos from time to time, even using TS1 was sufficient to do the job and, it effectively sucks.
Heck, even just launching 1 torpedo without TS or HY, has killed weakened PC's itself, simply because the CRTD + CRTH capability in game made it possible, they had roughly 30k hull hp, single torpedo inflicted 75k dmg, whammo they died.
And, even if they resisted 50% of that 75k, they would have still died either way!!!
Wow way to sound like a spoiled little brat there shadowwraith77.
What you said literally translates to:
"I can't have my favourite toy still so everyone else should have their toys taken away..."
AP has a bonus in CrtD as it has no other bonus effect. This only made them more popular when DPS became the metric by which to kill HP sponges. In PvP there are still many other preferable weapon types to AP. SS probably does need a bit of a nerf, it's better for pure DPS than BFAW3 is. I like that it's reducing the BFAW spam though, so it's a mixed bag.
As I said earlier in another thread though a proper balance pass with some serious work on it and the intent to fix many of the problem aspects with ships (such as loadouts etc...) would clean up this mess. However then you'd probably find something else to whine about.
I am not whining at all!!!
I am simply stating that people want a torpedo that is fine, to be nerfed in dmg, when the game mechanics revolved around boosting dmg capacity is the culprit!!!
Reading comprehension got you?
1 seemingly OP mechanic causing such a fuss, yet every other HUGELY OPing mechanic in game is fine right?
Years ago, there was a while where Scatter Volley 3 was giving a 70% DPS boost instead of its intended 25%. It tore through NPCs and Players, and people cried with that was fixed, too.
The same thing is happening here. Neutronic is using an incorrect damage modifier.
There is no debate. End of story. The torpedo was broken, and now it's being corrected. Any other issues regarding game balance or "needing" that much damage are superfluous.
What was incorrect is now being corrected. There is no arguing that.
I am simply stating that people want a torpedo that is fine, to be nerfed in dmg, when the game mechanics revolved around boosting dmg capacity is the culprit!!!
Reading comprehension got you?
1 seemingly OP mechanic causing such a fuss, yet every other HUGELY OPing mechanic in game is fine right?
Years ago, there was a while where Scatter Volley 3 was giving a 70% DPS boost instead of its intended 25%. It tore through NPCs and Players, and people cried with that was fixed, too.
The same thing is happening here. Neutronic is using an incorrect damage modifier.
There is no debate. End of story. The torpedo was broken, and now it's being corrected. Any other issues regarding game balance or "needing" that much damage are superfluous.
What was incorrect is now being corrected. There is no arguing that.
No, it's not a seemingly OP mechanic.
It's downright broken. Confirmed by the Devs.
Red would be an incorrect statement, while the yellow would be correct and, finally on point!!!
You don't nerf the item itself when it isn't required, you nerf the mechanics that is actually causing the issue but, people are screaming for the item to be directly nerfed!!!
But, either way this doesn't bring any real balance to pvp, because you still have wayyyyyyy to many OPing issues left to contend with, that still needs dealt with!
1 nerfed or, supposedly corrected mechanic, doesn't fix or balance everything else that is over the top.
Red would be an incorrect statement, while the yellow would be correct and, finally on point!!!
You don't nerf the item itself when it isn't required, you nerf the mechanics that is actually causing the issue but, people are screaming for the item to be directly nerfed!!!
But, either way this doesn't bring any real balance to pvp, because you still have wayyyyyyy to many OPing issues left to contend with, that still needs dealt with!
1 nerfed or, supposed corrected mechanic, doesn't fix or balance everything else that is over the top.
The "mechanic" you're so determined to prove is broken is an incorrect damage modifier. It's a number that is wrong. Damage is scaling incorrectly.
Now, if you want to talk about +dmg/CrtD/CrtH stacking, then yes, that is a mechanics issue. However, that's not what is causing Neutronic's erroneous damage. It contributes, but it is not the cause.
The "mechanic" you're so determined to prove is broken is an incorrect damage modifier. It's a number that is wrong. Damage is scaling incorrectly.
Now, if you want to talk about +dmg/CrtD/CrtH stacking, then yes, that is a mechanics issue. However, that's not what is causing Neutronic's erroneous damage. It contributes, but it is not the cause.
Exactly, now tell that to all the other people, who seemingly want the actual torpedo itself nerfed would you!!!
Which would effectively kill it, in regards to base launching dmg/dps and, not in regards to spreads and high yields!
I am simply stating that people want a torpedo that is fine, to be nerfed in dmg, when the game mechanics revolved around boosting dmg capacity is the culprit!!!
Reading comprehension got you?
1 seemingly OP mechanic causing such a fuss, yet every other HUGELY OPing mechanic in game is fine right?
So long as it doesn't hurt your fun right?
My reading comprehension is fine, yet you do seem to like to cherry pick what you reply to. Just look at that lovely quote that you completely ignored the details I wrote on what's actually needed to fix the problems with all the different issues of balance.
You however are making a massive storm in a teacup about this torpedo. You're been passive aggressive in every reply and seem to be on a weird crusade. I particularly enjoyed the part where you wrote about the intentions behind the Torp's design, just the same as academics have over dissected a book and are reading information into passages that doesn't exist.
AH well c'est la vie. It's going to be fixed. It's a bug.
Chris Robert's on SC:
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
Exactly, now tell that to all the other people, who seemingly want the actual torpedo itself nerfed would you!!!
Which would effectively kill it, in regards to base launching dmg/dps and, not in regards to spreads and high yields!
There seems to be a disconnect here. What everyone is calling for is exactly what's happening - they are fixing the incorrect damage modifier. When people are asking for Neutronic to be nerfed, it's a general term. They're asking for whatever is causing it's high damage to be fixed. That is what is happening.
And, using the numbers that Borticus posted and through his own words, Neutronic is still going to be the most powerful torpedo - even with its higher CD.
Neutronic is the closest we have to the immersive experience of torpedoes being as lethal as they were in canon.
^this [see edit]
edit: And, now that I"ve read the entire thread, don't ask me why, masochistic or something, I have no relevant opinion! LOL I haven't ever used this torp. heh
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." Q Join the 44th Fleet. [FED and KDF] Apply Online: startrek.44thfleet.com
There seems to be a disconnect here. What everyone is calling for is exactly what's happening - they are fixing the incorrect damage modifier. When people are asking for Neutronic to be nerfed, it's a general term. They're asking for whatever is causing it's high damage to be fixed. That is what is happening.
And, using the numbers that Borticus posted and through his own words, Neutronic is still going to be the most powerful torpedo - even with its higher CD.
So he says, never trust a Dev fully!
I still foresee people whining and complaining it needs nerfed more, I mean why have torpedoes in game, if they aren't meant to cause massive dmg spikes?
Am I to guess, they aren't going to fix the related issue of TS1 being utter TRIBBLE in regards to this torpedo? No care for a fix regarding THY?
My reading comprehension is fine, yet you do seem to like to cherry pick what you reply to. Just look at that lovely quote that you completely ignored the details I wrote on what's actually needed to fix the problems with all the different issues of balance.
You however are making a massive storm in a teacup about this torpedo. You're been passive aggressive in every reply and seem to be on a weird crusade. I particularly enjoyed the part where you wrote about the intentions behind the Torp's design, just the same as academics have over dissected a book and are reading information into passages that doesn't exist.
AH well c'est la vie. It's going to be fixed. It's a bug.
And, yet you comment by ranting on with nothing of use, other than it's getting nerfed!
I still foresee people whining and complaining it needs nerfed more, I mean why have torpedoes in game, if they aren't meant to cause massive dmg spikes?
Am I to guess, they aren't going to fix the related issue of TS1 being utter TRIBBLE in regards to this torpedo? No care for a fix regarding THY?
Slow HY requires some timing not to hit shields, but hull. All other torpedo spreads require the same but in lesser degree.
Neutronic has modifiers that make a certain high hit every time. and that is OK since it has long cooldown.
What is not OK, however, which has been confirmed by devs, is that Neutspread2 and 3 have incorrect scaling DMG modifiers across the board.
Comparatively
TS1 too weak
TS2 and 3 way too strong
HY absolutely weak
Even after the -36% nerf on TS3 it will remain strongest torpedo in game(exclamation mark needed?)
And yeah, after the nerf it will still kick "people's butts" like you say, but it will be same way all other torpedo did and do.(except for elachi and chroniton which are primarily debuff torpedo types, and of course now very weak transphasics)
To be honest, I find STO's attitude toward torpdoes disappointing anyway. Whilst I am fully aware that canon has little bearing on STO I, personally, think it's ridicuouls that energy weapons can be made as OP as they are yet torpdoes, the REAL heavy hitters in canon/the series, are second-fiddle to them.
I have the same opinion. That is why I always use a torpedo on my ships.
Why majority doesn't is because it's way easier to fly/use full beam setups in PvE to get high numbers. First it was A2B/DEM marion then with omega 2pc, and now it's plasma doping.
Also major fail from ship design PoW is IMO that ships don't have separate slots for Torpedos.
For example canon Defiant has 1 Quad heavy phaser cannon front and 2 torpedo quantum launchers.
Voyager has 2x2 270 arc "front" + 2 torpedo launchers front, 2 aft
etc.
changing that, would make much more balanced and ST like game.
If we ever get Ship sector targeting with critical hits concentrated on hitting critical parts of ships, instead of (outside of PvP) weak subsys targeting and hitting the mesh instead of parts, that would even be glorious.
I still foresee people whining and complaining it needs nerfed more, I mean why have torpedoes in game, if they aren't meant to cause massive dmg spikes?
Am I to guess, they aren't going to fix the related issue of TS1 being utter TRIBBLE in regards to this torpedo? No care for a fix regarding THY?
Torpedoes are intended to cause damage spikes - to hull. And they still do that. It's just that power creep has largely ignored projectiles and greatly benefited energy weapons to the point that energy weapons do it all. There's also the large cooldown/flight time/firing rate/shield kinetic resistance not scaling with shield HP issue inherent to torpedoes, but THAT is the mechanics issue here. Not Neutronic's mistaken modifier.
Bio/Neutronic/Gravimetric HY issues were also brought up to the Devs as well, and I believe they said something along the lines of looking into it, but haven't given any hard numbers as of yet.
But you know what else happened with this Neutronic fix? They acknowledged that Transphasics and Chronitons were underperforming with Torpedo Spread - and they're going to buff their damage accordingly.
Who would have thought? Pushing for proper balance actually causes underperforming gear to get buffed, instead of just having 1 or 2 supremely powerful things? :rolleyes:
To be honest, I find STO's attitude toward torpdoes disappointing anyway. Whilst I am fully aware that canon has little bearing on STO I, personally, think it's ridicuouls that energy weapons can be made as OP as they are yet torpdoes, the REAL heavy hitters in canon/the series, are second-fiddle to them.
The "Torpedoes for hull, energy weapons for shield" mechanic is something STO borrowed from Star Trek: Legacy. It made sense at launch, but over the years, power creep largely ignored projectiles and made energy weapons powerful enough to be the de facto weapon choice - outside of specialized builds that either are pure torps or time their strikes in combination with Beam Overload/Rapid Fire perfectly so that torpedoes hit hull.
That's not to say that you can't make torpedoes successful - my Vesta uses 3 torpedoes up front (non-Neutronic) with an unoptimized build (essentially "wasting" an entire Lt Tac BOff due to CD overlap and putting mines in my aft weapons) and I can still average around 20K in ISA runs.
That's probably the worst thing about this whole situation.
OP energy weapons? Embraced by almost everyone and entire builds created around them (BFAW Aux2Batt etc)
OP Torpdeos? NERF!! Nerf it NOW!!!
Sad.
I'd agree and also disagree.
It's sad that energy weapons have gotten to the point where they are right now, yes. And, ideally, we'd see an overall balance pass where things like Dual Cannons (when was the last time you saw someone using those?) and underused abilities like Aceton Beam would be made viable.
But this is a pressing issue, and one that (should be) and easy, quick fix.
To be honest, I find STO's attitude toward torpdoes disappointing anyway. Whilst I am fully aware that canon has little bearing on STO I, personally, think it's ridicuouls that energy weapons can be made as OP as they are yet torpdoes, the REAL heavy hitters in canon/the series, are second-fiddle to them.
I still can't quite believe that in my Science Vessel build with all kinds of kinetic enhancements and exotic damage powers like Gravity Well, I "cook" hostile ships within their shields.
Sure, I kill ships much slower than in my Escort (that even is still using "traditional" DHCs and is not on the BFAW nor even the SS trip)... But still, that seems just as "off" as the energy weapon extremes.
I think a "base" problem of the torpedo vs energy is that while torpedoes might deal less damage against shields, energy weapons deal the same damage against hull and shields. If they also dealt only 25 % to hull while torpedoes deal 25 % to shields, we'd probably see a notable change.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Again, it is not the torpedo itself that is broken but, merely the game mechanics that cause it to reach godly like potential.
While we are on the subject of nerfing things, why not nerf AP weapons hmm?
They can be deemed OP, seeing how they can achieve far more crtd than any other energy type and, are backed by better dps capacity due to shear crth chances, not to mention the fact you can equip more than 1 Omni of that particular energy type mainly, backed even further that they are increased by 1 energy type of tac console needed to achieve said goal?
Heck nerf SS, nerf crtd, nerf crth, nerf go down fighting, etc...
I would sing a song of praises and thanks to Cyrptic on National television if AP weapons were nerfed. God I hate those things, make your ears bleed when people hit BFAW with them and they pretty much are the monopoly weapon of the game.
"Why all the sales"?
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
But you know what else happened with this Neutronic fix? They acknowledged that Transphasics and Chronitons were underperforming with Torpedo Spread - and they're going to buff their damage accordingly.
Who would have thought? Pushing for proper balance actually causes underperforming gear to get buffed, instead of just having 1 or 2 supremely powerful things? :rolleyes:
Really and truly? If so, joy! My B'rel will be ecstatic.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Not really, they are only about 2% more effective than others. It's still 2% but not enough to force players to just use AP. I'll still use Disruptor and Polaron, they are both effective as are Phased Biomatter.
Chris Robert's on SC:
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
I think a "base" problem of the torpedo vs energy is that while torpedoes might deal less damage against shields, energy weapons deal the same damage against hull and shields. If they also dealt only 25 % to hull while torpedoes deal 25 % to shields, we'd probably see a notable change.
This is exactly what they should have done from day one.
Energy weapons should do less dmg to Hull... its only logical that the big exploding torpedo would rip larger holes in armour... where the high energy Lazor weapons would rip through energy shields.
I truly have no idea why this wasn't the standard mechanic at launch.
Games like Eve get that part right... all weapons effect hull/armor/shields the same however ships all have the exact opposite resists by default. (Shields being strong to one dmg type that armour gets no natural resist to... and the reverse on armour) Meaning a weapon designed to chew shields will have a harder time with armour and the reverse. It makes for a much more tactical game... Cryptic was sleeping day one.
Despite the uproar it would cause now... it is something they should still consider changing.
This is exactly what they should have done from day one.
Energy weapons should do less dmg to Hull... its only logical that the big exploding torpedo would rip larger holes in armour... where the high energy Lazor weapons would rip through energy shields.
I truly have no idea why this wasn't the standard mechanic at launch.
This.
Why it's okay to min/max for Beam FAW & totally ignore using Torpedoes on a Cruiser (except for people who want "realism")... it boggles the mind.
Sci torpedo boats - definitely the red-headed step children.
Why it's okay to min/max for Beam FAW & totally ignore using Torpedoes on a Cruiser (except for people who want "realism")... it boggles the mind.
Sci torpedo boats - definitely the red-headed step children.
If sci torpedo boats are the red headed step children what are tactical torp boats that don't have GW to dump all that aux into (aside from a lot of fun with maxed out engines)?
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
If sci torpedo boats are the red headed step children what are tactical torp boats that don't have GW to dump all that aux into (aside from a lot of fun with maxed out engines)?
I'm just pointing out that Sci abilities are at least as badwrong as Torpedoes, if not moreso. At least the game is built for DPS, unlike Sci CC.
My T'varo can run GW, just like my B'rel can run APO/APB without a need for Aux. You're not prevented from running Aux for a GW on your B'rel any more than I'm prevented from going for more DPS skills on my B'rel.
Or, maybe put energy into Shields? My Mat'Ha can go BFAW + Torpedoes... or I can do a Decloaker thing with my Norgh or any number of Romulan boats to get the higher Rom Ambush bonus that I don't get with the B'rel.
High Aux is a feature of a Torpedo boat, not a requirement, IMO.
First clip: 1st target has no debuffs at all
2nd target has only Omega shearing debuff
Second clip: Full Hull, Full shields scimitar. no debuffs. i hit him with TS3 , bam! 120k+ effective damage. Ih he had been debuffed or didn't insta exploded it would go over 200k easily from radiation.
Third clip: no debuffs on all 3 enemies at time of firing.
all 3 die from cca effective 400k Alpha.
BTW thanks to that guy in comments on Youtube for disliking and calling me a PvPtard.
Real class act.
Hmm...
Pardon my ignorance here but it sounds like you're saying the only thing needed to make this work is TS3 and the neutronic torp?
So if I load that torp on my fleet assault cruiser with TS3 and aim at a borg cube in ISA I'm going to put out 120k on it?
Sounds fishy to me... I'm guessing it requires the correct sequence of buffs (why cloak before firing if the torp is the problem??) and maybe the solution is to adjust how things stack on top of each other rather than focus exclusively on the torp...
Not really, they are only about 2% more effective than others. It's still 2% but not enough to force players to just use AP. I'll still use Disruptor and Polaron, they are both effective as are Phased Biomatter.
2%?
I think more like 25%!!!
What other energy weapon do you know of, that has as high of CRTD as AP can achieve?
What other energy weapon do you know of, that works squarely off of CRTH to achieve the extra CRTD?
What I see in this thread are people wanting the nerfing of the ONE effective torpedo in this game and back to the status quo of torpedoes being pretty pointless.
In a Star Trek game...
People have issues with a torpedo being deadly effective.
But people have no issues with energy weapons destroying everything, with beams in a 360 arc around the ship, and losing ZERO effectiveness on any target regardless if shields are up.
But apparently that's fine?
Long ago, I used to drive Torp Boats very consistently. Then I gave up. I gave up because it was way, WAY too much trouble to even make them half-way decent in general combat. Then there's the very sad notion of equipping torpedoes on a damn STAR TREK vessel will worsen your combat performance instead of just "Go All Energy" or better yet, "Go Beamboat."
Let us not have torpedoes being competitively good weapons, unless you're into half-assed gimmick play.
Comments
How are the #'s for pvp not correct?
I have easily seen basic torpedoes accomplish this kind of chain dmg many times and, now made even greater with all the power creep, via specializations/traits!
It's not hard to imagine doing a spread, with basic torpedoes being able to eradicate PC's!
And, regarding the red, how exactly does this torpedo just magically eat thru shields?
It must accomplish this by damaging the shields with its kinetic dmg, the radiation dmg bypasses the shields yes and, it might deliver enough kinetic bang to cause dmg to shields but, overall I would say it's mainly due to mechanics allowing extra dmg to bypass shields, along with massive spike dmg from energy weapons attacks that soften the shields primarily.
People in pvp, are probably being caught with their pants down, by not carrying enough kinetic DR, thinking who in the right mind would use torpedoes in a pvp match, that compounds the issue even further!
I myself don't use torpedo tac consoles, yet have still eradicated PC's with torpedo salvos from time to time, even using TS1 was sufficient to do the job and, it effectively sucks.
Heck, even just launching 1 torpedo without TS or HY, has killed weakened PC's itself, simply because the CRTD + CRTH capability in game made it possible, they had roughly 30k hull hp, single torpedo inflicted 75k dmg, whammo they died.
And, even if they resisted 50% of that 75k, they would have still died either way!!!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
I am not whining at all!!!
I am simply stating that people want a torpedo that is fine, to be nerfed in dmg, when the game mechanics revolved around boosting dmg capacity is the culprit!!!
Reading comprehension got you?
1 seemingly OP mechanic causing such a fuss, yet every other HUGELY OPing mechanic in game is fine right?
So long as it doesn't hurt your fun right?
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
The same thing is happening here. Neutronic is using an incorrect damage modifier.
There is no debate. End of story. The torpedo was broken, and now it's being corrected. Any other issues regarding game balance or "needing" that much damage are superfluous.
What was incorrect is now being corrected. There is no arguing that.
No, it's not a seemingly OP mechanic.
It's downright broken. Confirmed by the Devs.
Red would be an incorrect statement, while the yellow would be correct and, finally on point!!!
You don't nerf the item itself when it isn't required, you nerf the mechanics that is actually causing the issue but, people are screaming for the item to be directly nerfed!!!
But, either way this doesn't bring any real balance to pvp, because you still have wayyyyyyy to many OPing issues left to contend with, that still needs dealt with!
1 nerfed or, supposedly corrected mechanic, doesn't fix or balance everything else that is over the top.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
The "mechanic" you're so determined to prove is broken is an incorrect damage modifier. It's a number that is wrong. Damage is scaling incorrectly.
Now, if you want to talk about +dmg/CrtD/CrtH stacking, then yes, that is a mechanics issue. However, that's not what is causing Neutronic's erroneous damage. It contributes, but it is not the cause.
Exactly, now tell that to all the other people, who seemingly want the actual torpedo itself nerfed would you!!!
Which would effectively kill it, in regards to base launching dmg/dps and, not in regards to spreads and high yields!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
My reading comprehension is fine, yet you do seem to like to cherry pick what you reply to. Just look at that lovely quote that you completely ignored the details I wrote on what's actually needed to fix the problems with all the different issues of balance.
You however are making a massive storm in a teacup about this torpedo. You're been passive aggressive in every reply and seem to be on a weird crusade. I particularly enjoyed the part where you wrote about the intentions behind the Torp's design, just the same as academics have over dissected a book and are reading information into passages that doesn't exist.
AH well c'est la vie. It's going to be fixed. It's a bug.
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
There seems to be a disconnect here. What everyone is calling for is exactly what's happening - they are fixing the incorrect damage modifier. When people are asking for Neutronic to be nerfed, it's a general term. They're asking for whatever is causing it's high damage to be fixed. That is what is happening.
And, using the numbers that Borticus posted and through his own words, Neutronic is still going to be the most powerful torpedo - even with its higher CD.
^this [see edit]
edit: And, now that I"ve read the entire thread, don't ask me why, masochistic or something, I have no relevant opinion! LOL I haven't ever used this torp. heh
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It could save your life...
So he says, never trust a Dev fully!
I still foresee people whining and complaining it needs nerfed more, I mean why have torpedoes in game, if they aren't meant to cause massive dmg spikes?
Am I to guess, they aren't going to fix the related issue of TS1 being utter TRIBBLE in regards to this torpedo? No care for a fix regarding THY?
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Thanks for noticing. It's over the top just like the theme of the video. It simply couldn't have been any other way
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And, yet you comment by ranting on with nothing of use, other than it's getting nerfed!
touch
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Than you could kiss the game goodbye literally, as the small pvp community cannot sustain the game alone financially!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Slow HY requires some timing not to hit shields, but hull. All other torpedo spreads require the same but in lesser degree.
Neutronic has modifiers that make a certain high hit every time. and that is OK since it has long cooldown.
What is not OK, however, which has been confirmed by devs, is that Neutspread2 and 3 have incorrect scaling DMG modifiers across the board.
Comparatively
TS1 too weak
TS2 and 3 way too strong
HY absolutely weak
Even after the -36% nerf on TS3 it will remain strongest torpedo in game(exclamation mark needed?)
And yeah, after the nerf it will still kick "people's butts" like you say, but it will be same way all other torpedo did and do.(except for elachi and chroniton which are primarily debuff torpedo types, and of course now very weak transphasics)
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I have the same opinion. That is why I always use a torpedo on my ships.
Why majority doesn't is because it's way easier to fly/use full beam setups in PvE to get high numbers. First it was A2B/DEM marion then with omega 2pc, and now it's plasma doping.
Also major fail from ship design PoW is IMO that ships don't have separate slots for Torpedos.
For example canon Defiant has 1 Quad heavy phaser cannon front and 2 torpedo quantum launchers.
Voyager has 2x2 270 arc "front" + 2 torpedo launchers front, 2 aft
etc.
changing that, would make much more balanced and ST like game.
If we ever get Ship sector targeting with critical hits concentrated on hitting critical parts of ships, instead of (outside of PvP) weak subsys targeting and hitting the mesh instead of parts, that would even be glorious.
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SpecialTemporal PUG 100K DPS Build
We are Travelers
Torpedoes are intended to cause damage spikes - to hull. And they still do that. It's just that power creep has largely ignored projectiles and greatly benefited energy weapons to the point that energy weapons do it all. There's also the large cooldown/flight time/firing rate/shield kinetic resistance not scaling with shield HP issue inherent to torpedoes, but THAT is the mechanics issue here. Not Neutronic's mistaken modifier.
Bio/Neutronic/Gravimetric HY issues were also brought up to the Devs as well, and I believe they said something along the lines of looking into it, but haven't given any hard numbers as of yet.
But you know what else happened with this Neutronic fix? They acknowledged that Transphasics and Chronitons were underperforming with Torpedo Spread - and they're going to buff their damage accordingly.
Who would have thought? Pushing for proper balance actually causes underperforming gear to get buffed, instead of just having 1 or 2 supremely powerful things? :rolleyes:
The "Torpedoes for hull, energy weapons for shield" mechanic is something STO borrowed from Star Trek: Legacy. It made sense at launch, but over the years, power creep largely ignored projectiles and made energy weapons powerful enough to be the de facto weapon choice - outside of specialized builds that either are pure torps or time their strikes in combination with Beam Overload/Rapid Fire perfectly so that torpedoes hit hull.
That's not to say that you can't make torpedoes successful - my Vesta uses 3 torpedoes up front (non-Neutronic) with an unoptimized build (essentially "wasting" an entire Lt Tac BOff due to CD overlap and putting mines in my aft weapons) and I can still average around 20K in ISA runs.
I'd agree and also disagree.
It's sad that energy weapons have gotten to the point where they are right now, yes. And, ideally, we'd see an overall balance pass where things like Dual Cannons (when was the last time you saw someone using those?) and underused abilities like Aceton Beam would be made viable.
But this is a pressing issue, and one that (should be) and easy, quick fix.
Sure, I kill ships much slower than in my Escort (that even is still using "traditional" DHCs and is not on the BFAW nor even the SS trip)... But still, that seems just as "off" as the energy weapon extremes.
I think a "base" problem of the torpedo vs energy is that while torpedoes might deal less damage against shields, energy weapons deal the same damage against hull and shields. If they also dealt only 25 % to hull while torpedoes deal 25 % to shields, we'd probably see a notable change.
I would sing a song of praises and thanks to Cyrptic on National television if AP weapons were nerfed. God I hate those things, make your ears bleed when people hit BFAW with them and they pretty much are the monopoly weapon of the game.
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
Really and truly? If so, joy! My B'rel will be ecstatic.
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
This is exactly what they should have done from day one.
Energy weapons should do less dmg to Hull... its only logical that the big exploding torpedo would rip larger holes in armour... where the high energy Lazor weapons would rip through energy shields.
I truly have no idea why this wasn't the standard mechanic at launch.
Games like Eve get that part right... all weapons effect hull/armor/shields the same however ships all have the exact opposite resists by default. (Shields being strong to one dmg type that armour gets no natural resist to... and the reverse on armour) Meaning a weapon designed to chew shields will have a harder time with armour and the reverse. It makes for a much more tactical game... Cryptic was sleeping day one.
Despite the uproar it would cause now... it is something they should still consider changing.
This.
Why it's okay to min/max for Beam FAW & totally ignore using Torpedoes on a Cruiser (except for people who want "realism")... it boggles the mind.
Sci torpedo boats - definitely the red-headed step children.
IKS Korrasami (Fleet B'rel Bird of Prey Retrofit T5-U)
If sci torpedo boats are the red headed step children what are tactical torp boats that don't have GW to dump all that aux into (aside from a lot of fun with maxed out engines)?
I'm just pointing out that Sci abilities are at least as badwrong as Torpedoes, if not moreso. At least the game is built for DPS, unlike Sci CC.
My T'varo can run GW, just like my B'rel can run APO/APB without a need for Aux. You're not prevented from running Aux for a GW on your B'rel any more than I'm prevented from going for more DPS skills on my B'rel.
Or, maybe put energy into Shields? My Mat'Ha can go BFAW + Torpedoes... or I can do a Decloaker thing with my Norgh or any number of Romulan boats to get the higher Rom Ambush bonus that I don't get with the B'rel.
High Aux is a feature of a Torpedo boat, not a requirement, IMO.
IKS Korrasami (Fleet B'rel Bird of Prey Retrofit T5-U)
Hmm...
Pardon my ignorance here but it sounds like you're saying the only thing needed to make this work is TS3 and the neutronic torp?
So if I load that torp on my fleet assault cruiser with TS3 and aim at a borg cube in ISA I'm going to put out 120k on it?
Sounds fishy to me... I'm guessing it requires the correct sequence of buffs (why cloak before firing if the torp is the problem??) and maybe the solution is to adjust how things stack on top of each other rather than focus exclusively on the torp...
Captain Ariel Trueheart Department of Temporal Investigations
U.S.S. Valkyrie - NCC 991701
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2%?
I think more like 25%!!!
What other energy weapon do you know of, that has as high of CRTD as AP can achieve?
What other energy weapon do you know of, that works squarely off of CRTH to achieve the extra CRTD?
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
In a Star Trek game...
People have issues with a torpedo being deadly effective.
But people have no issues with energy weapons destroying everything, with beams in a 360 arc around the ship, and losing ZERO effectiveness on any target regardless if shields are up.
But apparently that's fine?
Long ago, I used to drive Torp Boats very consistently. Then I gave up. I gave up because it was way, WAY too much trouble to even make them half-way decent in general combat. Then there's the very sad notion of equipping torpedoes on a damn STAR TREK vessel will worsen your combat performance instead of just "Go All Energy" or better yet, "Go Beamboat."
Let us not have torpedoes being competitively good weapons, unless you're into half-assed gimmick play.