What really sucks is that as soon as this nerf goes through, all the PvP crowd will do is hop back to the previous generation uber builds for vaping, still one shot killing each other, while the PvE crowd has to go back to 8 beam boats due to torps being useless again but are still stuck with the last updates reduced timers and increased requirements for completing missions on Advanced and Elite.
In short, PvP looses a new toy and goes back to an old one that does the same thing. PvE looses a good new toy but then has to figure out how to keep up with the added requirements and difficulty.
I dont mind balance in a sense of scale, but when an Engineer captain in a Science ship (like mine, in a T5 non U non Fleet Intreped) is getting higher DPS than his four team mates combined, there is a problem.
I LOVED this torpedo, LOVED it, and you know what? I dont even have one! I loved it because seeing that thing fire off in a mission was like a signal flare, it told me 'thank god they have the handicap on' because I'm getting tired of pestering friends and fleet mates to do mark runs when the average player seems incapable of 2k DPS.
So my vote? Either turn the Red Shirt server into a PvP server, or give every weapon/piece of gear in the game two sets of stats. Normal stats for normal game play, and a mod free proc free 1/10th value version for PvP, that would scale the weapons damage and effect from the hull and shields of NPCs to what players have.
"Why all the sales"?
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
This endless circle of nerfing (or wanting things nerfed) from both the devs and from the players really should stop, and for once, consider buffing the other things. Set a few new standards as part of the new meta. They're trying to overhaul portions of the game to make it more enticing; so why not make some of the older weapons more enticing as well?
Now would be a good time as any to take a look at older weapons and bring them up to par with the new meta Cryptic themselves have set, especially torpedoes and mines, as well as regular Dual Cannons and normal Cannons. And if anything needed adjustment, it's AP weapons as a whole (making its innate CrtD bonus either have the weapons lose a mod per rarity or made a 2.5% CrtD chance on critical or something).
Sure, I get they don't want their darling toys representing DR to be overshadowed too much. Think about it; Neutronic is tied to Delta Reputation, which requires running their Delta-related queues for the rare drops and marks needed for them; so they're not likely to nerf it until they need more metrics in some other queues. But the least they can do is bring up some of the older weapons and equipment to make them reasonable alternatives.
Give normal non-Rep weapons additional unique mods (or in AP's case, take a mod away or adjust it) beyond just Over/Spread/Pen/Snare. For example, an [Extend] mod, which doubles the firing duration of the weapon before it "reloads"/recharges, making it capable of firing a double BO or an extended FaW/CSV/CRF from that emitter/cannon. Or a add the [Radius] mod to regular projectiles and other mines for a bit of AoE potential. Heck, allow for the [CrtX] mods on them as well.
Additionally, they should also allow for Mod picking in R&D at an increased cost (Dilithium, mats, etc; just allow for some picking period), to further make old-fashioned/classic weapons even more tempting over fixed mods of Dilithium weapons (from Rep stores) or Rep/Lockbox weapons.
We cannot really compare it for say, to a standard quantum, because the standardized launch time for a quantum is 8secs., while the neutronic is 15secs.
It would fit into a different class of torpedo altogether!
Granted, the other torpedo types actually need a increase but, by no means really does this torpedo need a decrease IMO.
Making it closer resemble a completely different torpedo, in regards to spread dmg, than keeping it at almost double that for regular launch times, will work towards even less dps than indicated overall!
Even with the 2pc. bonus of 20% cd reduction, that is still an average launch wait of 12secs.
We cannot really compare it for say, to a standard quantum, because the standardized launch time for a quantum is 8secs., while the neutronic is 15secs.
Sure we can...same way we can compare a Photon and a Quantum. The Photon is 6s and has a base of 1352. The Quantum is 8s and has a base of 1503.
Tada...simple.
The Neutronic is 15s and has a base of 1830...as well as a 3km AoE that does Rad damage, drains subsystem power, and reduces power transfer rate.
So you compare it to a standard Quantum, yeah?
Increased damage? Yep.
3km AoE doing Rad damage, draining subsystem power, and reducing transfer rate? Yep.
Guess what's going to happen to the CD/recharge on the torp?
Longer!
Tada...simple...done.
edit: My bad, I forgot the Unique equip to help offset the advantages it has over the standard Quantum which aren't covered by just boosting its recharge.
Like the Grav Photon, it's 8s instead of 6s, maintains the same 1352 base, has the chance to create a Grav Rift, and is Unique equip.
Like the Enhanced Bio-Molecular Photon, maintains the 1352 base, maintains the 6s, but has the Bio-Molecular action going for it, which gives it 4 mods instead of three...and ends up Unique equip.
The regular Bio-Molecular Photons by comparison, have a 7s recharge and only 3 mods...not Unique equip.
Things are balanced at the weapon.
Torp Spread is a neutral buff. Asking for it to affect torps differently would be like asking for Torp Tac Consoles to affect them differently...that Quantum console should be +X% for Quantums and +Y% for the Neutronic.
If somebody has balancing concerns with a torpedo, then the place to address them is with the torpedo.
The TS issue a TS issue...it's not working correctly with all the torps.
wow this thread actually hurts to read. So much misinformation from peeps who think they are going to lose the only good torpedo. Well news it's the only good torpedo because it's insanely broken.
Easy fix is to stop the excessive scaling.
To those who think that fixing the balance in this game is impossible, you are wholly wrong. It just takes someone who has the drive and the knowledge to do a full pass of the content to do so. Seeing as Space is totally disconnected from Ground that reduces the pressure as you can concentrate on a single area straight up. Seeing as there are many MMO's that have balance that works and has worked for years (yes there's bugs but they work on those for the most part), there's absolutely no reason STO cannot be rebalanced to reduce the difficulty issues and player competence issues.
Player competence is partly tutelage and partly knowledge. However there will always be a split like in any real world sport. You don't hear someone who plays Tennis at club level whining they can't beat Novak Djokovic or Andy Murray. There will always be those that put the effort in to be the best. It's only in computer gaming where those who play casually claim they should be among the best just because they grace the game with their presence...
Chris Robert's on SC:
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
Sure we can...same way we can compare a Photon and a Quantum. The Photon is 6s and has a base of 1352. The Quantum is 8s and has a base of 1503.
Tada...simple.
The Neutronic is 15s and has a base of 1830...as well as a 3km AoE that does Rad damage, drains subsystem power, and reduces power transfer rate.
So you compare it to a standard Quantum, yeah?
Increased damage? Yep.
3km AoE doing Rad damage, draining subsystem power, and reducing transfer rate? Yep.
Guess what's going to happen to the CD/recharge on the torp?
Longer!
Tada...simple...done.
That would be like comparing the gravimetric torpedo to a standard photon torpedo, one doesn't have the additional dmg, while the other does or, even using the biometric reputation torpedo vs standard photon torpedo!
Standard torpedoes aren't necessarily meant to compete, with reputation torpedoes due to the added nature, of the additional dmg proc that can occur!
The neutronic isn't a quantum torpedo for say, so you cannot really compare it exactly to a basic torpedo!
The additional kinetic dmg it does over a standard quantum, is why it has the lengthy launch time, the extra rad dmg is due to design of being reputation weapon by nature.
So, rad dmg aside, making it equally match the dmg spread of a quantum, will make the 2 equal but, not equal in regards to standard launch times.
A differential of 327 dmg at 1.5x the standard launch time, would actually work to lower the overall dps value, when both are equalized in spread dmg.
Even with the 20% reduction from the 2pc. set, it would still fall short by 50% in launch time dps overall.
And, this doesn't even cover that the neutronic gets 1 less torpedo per spread vs a quantum!
That would be like comparing the gravimetric torpedo to a standard photon torpedo, one doesn't have the additional dmg, while the other does or, even using the biometric reputation torpedo vs standard photon torpedo!
It's like some folks don't understand the most basic of balancing that takes place.
Turrets have a base DPV of 45.
DCs have a base DPV of 87.
Both have a 4/3 RoF, but one has a 360 arc and the other a 45 arc.
DHCs have a base DPV of 174, but they sport a 2/3 RoF.
Arrays have a base DPV of 100.
DBBs have a base DPV of 130.
Both have a 4/5 RoF, but one has a 250 arc and the other a 90 arc.
You change one thing, you've got to change another. That's balance.
Say you increase the damage, what are you going to change to reflect that?
Say you add a special effect, what are you going to change to reflect that?
Say you reduce the recharge, what are you going to change to reflect that?
You don't just keep adding stuff and go cool! :rolleyes:
It's like some folks don't understand the most basic of balancing that takes place.
Turrets have a base DPV of 45.
DCs have a base DPV of 87.
Both have a 4/3 RoF, but one has a 360 arc and the other a 45 arc.
DHCs have a base DPV of 174, but they sport a 2/3 RoF.
Arrays have a base DPV of 100.
DBBs have a base DPV of 130.
Both have a 4/5 RoF, but one has a 250 arc and the other a 90 arc.
You change one thing, you've got to change another. That's balance.
Say you increase the damage, what are you going to change to reflect that?
Say you add a special effect, what are you going to change to reflect that?
Say you reduce the recharge, what are you going to change to reflect that?
You don't just keep adding stuff and go cool! :rolleyes:
Energy weapons, would be a somewhat bad example, as torpedoes are all limited mainly to the same firing arc (180 launcher excluded).
Do that for energy weapons as a whole and, despite their listed dps ratings, some would go up in respect to that alone.
So, let's say we need wait 30secs., before we can initialize another TS.
During which time the launch times would go as such roughly (meaning not 100% exact)!
Enhanced bio-molecular torpedo=4-5 launches or 18328-22910dmg between TS's
Gravimetric torpedo=4-5 launches or 18328-22910dmg between TS's
Neutronic torpedo=1-2 launches or 6201.9-12403.8dmg between TS's
That's almost a +200%-300% dmg possibility, on the other 2 photon based torpedoes, vs the neutronic during those 30sec. waiting periods between TS's.
Than comes our next spread!!!
Rinse and repeat when TS is on CD!
Granted all torpedoes can be reduced in launch times but, the neutronic will also always fall behind in retrospect to the others listed with less launch times normally.
Well you're doing something right then. I'm looking at mine right now, Amp*4 + Spread3 + 6 points in Starship Projectile Weapons, and it says 7776 kinetic + 970 radiation times 3 torps. And once that hits a shield sliver most of the kinetic damage evaporates. Honestly I'd ditch it except 1 I already paid for it and 2 I'm one of those people that has to have a torpedo somewhere just for theme. Short of a ton of buffs or loading up on torp consoles (which seems silly for a single weapon), I don't understand where a base as high as yours is coming from.
The only bridge officer powers I have running is Tac team and Torpedo spread 3. At that damage I don’t care about a sliver of shields, in fact I don’t care about full shields. That’s still 15k to shields after resistance and if I crit well the numbers get crazy. Then add on the new command tree that gives me -125 hull resistance and shearing so 40% of that damage becomes a very large DoT over 6 seconds. Then add on the weapon disables all ships in a 3km blast due to virus torpedoes and I can see why people complain. I use the torpedo for a theme but since the last patch its damage has tripled and it’s got crazy.
Also note I have not upgraded the weapon to gold level and APA+APO+TacFleet+GDF could for some pilots be stacked up on the above.
There's nothing really over the top, in regards to its kinetic dmg, because w/o some form of launching reduction, it has over 2X the launch wait time of a standard photon and, virtually 1.5X that of a standard quantum!
The kinetic impact is what would be expected based on nominal launch times, to fall within the quantum based torpedo category!
A few hundred thousand possible dmg per volley with invested dmg, is mere child's play to massive hp sponges in 90% of every npc scenario, only the 10% left over does it insta-eradicate.
Its a 100 few hundred thousand possible raw damage. Then add on -125 or more to the NPC hull resistance and its an entire wave of dead NPC ships in 1 volley. Also we can increase the weapon fire rate down a lot not that it matters. You only need it ready to fire once every 15 seconds for Torp spread.
Its a 100 few hundred thousand possible raw damage. Then add on -125 or more to the NPC hull resistance and its an entire wave of dead NPC ships in 1 volley. Also we can increase the weapon fire rate down a lot not that it matters. You only need it ready to fire once every 15 seconds for Torp spread.
Even with the 15sec. possible global cd on TS, the only way this torpedo becomes viable when comparing possible dmg loss in the regular launch times category.
Is using torpedo doffs but, this yields at best a chance to narrow the gap!
As for the -125+ npc hull resistance, well that works for anything really!
So, again it isn't the torpedo for say itself but, everything else in game that makes it seem so OPing.
OP crth rates
OP crtd rates
OP cd reductions
OP DR debuffs
OP dmg buffs
etc...
Even with the 15sec. possible global cd on TS, the only way this torpedo becomes viable when comparing possible dmg loss in the regular launch times category.
Is using torpedo doffs but, this yields at best a chance to narrow the gap!
As for the -125+ npc hull resistance, well that works for anything really!
So, again it isn't the torpedo for say itself but, everything else in game that makes it seem so OPing.
OP crth rates
OP crtd rates
OP cd reductions
OP DR debuffs
OP dmg buffs
etc...
Dafuq are you babbling about? The Torp can one shot people without buffing. With buffing it can one shot multiple people. There are a beam setups that can one shot as well, but this discussion isn't about those. It's about a torp that can do a 5 man team's worth of spike damage in a single volley when fully buffed. Speccing Command would make it even higher. I don't see why you are bringing straw man arguments about other issues (which are more than well documented across the forum) into this discussion about a torpedo that's just broken.
Chris Robert's on SC:
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
Being also a kind of PvE hero myself, and since I play with rom tacs both in PvP and PvE , from my pve experience I can assure that the neutronic torp is nevertheless useful against NPCs but it's NOT the top of the top for DPS.
If you want to achieve the highest DPS, Go faw and beams or dual beams .
Check the video where STO ryan did 60k or something with the Voyager I was there with my torp Faeht , not fully upgraded yet but almost and I had 2 copies of TS3 and I did about 16k. let's say it'd have been 20k. with my Scimitar I hit 30k just smashing spacebar lol .
On the other hand, in a C&H , I remember the same faeht wiping out an entire team and Nando shouting " what the hell did you do , Arthas ? "
This team was not made of the average noobs of the street there was Vex, maybe T'lol I don't remember very well but they were good players AFAIK .:)
So I don't see good reasons why the PvErs should cry for this nerf this nerf won't change their life my pve Rom has no neutronic torp lol
Dafuq are you babbling about? The Torp can one shot people without buffing. With buffing it can one shot multiple people. There are a beam setups that can one shot as well, but this discussion isn't about those. It's about a torp that can do a 5 man team's worth of spike damage in a single volley when fully buffed. Speccing Command would make it even higher. I don't see why you are bringing straw man arguments about other issues (which are more than well documented across the forum) into this discussion about a torpedo that's just broken.
Maybe you haven't read the part where, it is a weapon designed for pve use above anything, and environment maid for high dmg/dps, not some paltry excuse for what we have as pvp.
It again isn't the torpedo itself, nor is it mainly TS3, it is all the other combined OPing TRIBBLE in game that allows it to achieve such high #'s.
Nerf all of those as well, while you are at it huh?
Nah didn't miss that bit, it's still TRIBBLE. You obviously like having an OP torpedo. Fine. But when it gets fixed don't come whining here, you won't get any sympathy.
Chris Robert's on SC:
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
People were calling the recent changes to Full Auto Rifles a Nerf too.
That was a blatantly broken weapon - a rifle at Mk II doing more damage than another rifle at Mk XIV - but people still complained that it was a nerf. It's exactly the same situation here. There's no reason at all for a weapon at Mk XII to do more DPS than a weapon at MK XIV.
Call it "broken" - call it "bugged" - call it "OP" - the end result is the same. A weapon doing far more damage than it should be doing.
Nah didn't miss that bit, it's still TRIBBLE. You obviously like having an OP torpedo. Fine. But when it gets fixed don't come whining here, you won't get any sympathy.
You can call it TRIBBLE all you want but, the fact remains, the torpedo itself is not the issue!
It's everything else in game, that boosts its potential!!!
That is what requires the nerf, not the actual torpedo itself.
All I see, are a bunch of QQ, wanting to nerf something that doesn't require it, while what actually is causing the issues as far as game mechanics are concerned, remain untouched!!!
People were calling the recent changes to Full Auto Rifles a Nerf too.
That was a blatantly broken weapon - a rifle at Mk II doing more damage than another rifle at Mk XIV - but people still complained that it was a nerf. It's exactly the same situation here. There's no reason at all for a weapon at Mk XII to do more DPS than a weapon at MK XIV.
Call it "broken" - call it "bugged" - call it "OP" - the end result is the same. A weapon doing far more damage than it should be doing.
Here's hoping it's fixed soon.
There is a HUGE difference, between these types of comparisons.
A mkxiv basic torpedo vs a mkxii specialty torpedo, should never be classed the same!
Again, it is not the actual torpedo that is the issue, it's everything else in game, that boosts weapons to seemingly OP potentials, that is what requires the nerfing.
Or, maybe you aren't aware of people doing over 100k dps in pve, w/o a single torpedo?
Or, maybe you aren't aware of people doing over 100k dps in pve, w/o a single torpedo?
No I am not aware of anyone doing that. I don't see how its possible for anyone to maintain over 100k DPS with a single torpedo. Spike damage for sure torpedo's can do 400 dps spike damage over 1 NPC wave but over the time the DPS is more like 25k.
Tl;dr: Neutronic Spread deserves a nerf. It was clearly broken.
Normally, I hate nerfs. But, ultimately, it's all a matter of how long something has been allowed to persist. When Bort nerfed the Borg set, I was annoyed, as Cryptic had allowed it to function the way it did for so long, that it could be construed as tacit approval on their end. Neutronic torp is pretty new, though. It's only fair, and prudent, to nip this thing in the bud, ere people get *really* upset about it, later on.
No I am not aware of anyone doing that. I don't see how its possible for anyone to maintain over 100k DPS with a single torpedo. Spike damage for sure torpedo's can do 400 dps spike damage over 1 NPC wave but over the time the DPS is more like 25k.
He said without. not with. w/o.
And again. Neutronic torpedo is NOT getting the nerf, Neutronic Torpedo TSpread2 and TSpread3 are.
While they will boost Transport Warhead with same torpedo.
And Neutronic HY should get massive boost because it's weakest of any torpedo in practice.
You can call it TRIBBLE all you want but, the fact remains, the torpedo itself is not the issue!
It's everything else in game, that boosts its potential!!!
That is what requires the nerf, not the actual torpedo itself.
All I see, are a bunch of QQ, wanting to nerf something that doesn't require it, while what actually is causing the issues as far as game mechanics are concerned, remain untouched!!!
I'm not QQ'ing mate. It's broken when using TS2/3 it's broken again when using HY (just the opposite way). So however you look at it, the torpedo needs fixing.
Your arguments as to why it's been designed are irrelevant. The Torp will still get boosts after the fix, they just won't be bugged to produce way too much damage. So it'll go back to being the best torp that no-one will slot because torps are useless unless the build is dedicated to them.
The underlying reasons of the build issues are far more complex and in essence require a redesign of ship layouts and slot's. I can't be bothered to go through that now though. Done it too many times and no-one ever listens.
Chris Robert's on SC:
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
And again. Neutronic torpedo is NOT getting the nerf, Neutronic Torpedo TSpread2 and TSpread3 are.
While they will boost Transport Warhead with same torpedo.
And Neutronic HY should get massive boost because it's weakest of any torpedo in practice.
While this may seem to alleviate the situation, it still doesn't hit upon all the other hugely dmg boosting issues in game!
I expect people to still cry OP and, want the torpedo directly nerfed itself!!!
You can still wipe a group of PC's out using regular torpedoes, it just requires precise timing and, the hopes of landing some critical hits when they do land!
But, this holds true in almost any given circumstance.
I mean what looks worse?
A TS doing 30-70k crit per torpedox4 torpedoes=120k-280k?
or
A TS doing 100-200k crit per torpedox3 torpedoes=300k-600k?
Either way, you are dead!!!
Hell, I have blown PC's out of the stars, off of one of the torpedoes using TS1 no less, when they are weakened slightly!
And to clear up one more thing.
People keep saying fantasy stuff like "it is not possible to make something behave like X in PvP but not in PvE and that it would cost unbelievable amounts of hours and money"
How about no?
Here is a quote from System Designer Borticus about fixing Ionic Turbulence:
borticuscrypticjust waiting for QA / Production to clear my checkins...
* Fixed the immunity period so that it actually applies.
* Extended the immunity period for players from 10sec to 20sec (NPCs still only get 10sec)
* The projectile now correctly flies at the target's current location, rather than tracking them.
I'm hoping these turn up next week. I hadn't posted about it just yet in case the changes got kicked back by QA for any reason, but decided to take the plunge.
While this may seem to alleviate the situation, it still doesn't hit upon all the other hugely dmg boosting issues in game!
I expect people to still cry OP and, want the torpedo directly nerfed itself!!!
You can still wipe a group of PC's out using regular torpedoes, it just requires precise timing and, the hopes of landing some critical hits when they do land!
But, this holds true in almost any given circumstance.
I mean what looks worse?
A TS doing 30-70k crit per torpedox4 torpedoes=120k-280k?
or
A TS doing 100-200k crit per torpedox3 torpedoes=300k-600k?
Either way, you are dead!!!
Hell, I have blown PC's out of the stars, off of one of the torpedoes using TS1 no less, when they are weakened slightly!
Those numbers for spread with other torpedos are not correct for PvP. That is the issue. Only for neutronic.
1. repeating the fact. In the video i don't use torpedo boosting consoles. Damage is huge.
2. Neutronic torpedo eats through shields and applies huge AoE radiation DoT and subsys drain on top of it
3. It is indeed, not a single issue, but doesnt change the fact that no other torpedo on Spread can come even close to 200k marker per torp in PvE, or per spread vs 1 target in PvP
While on the flipside Neutronic TS1 is weak in comparison and Neutronic HY is so weak it is better to equip a Mk II photon in it's place, so to say.
I'm not QQ'ing mate. It's broken when using TS2/3 it's broken again when using HY (just the opposite way). So however you look at it, the torpedo needs fixing.
Your arguments as to why it's been designed are irrelevant. The Torp will still get boosts after the fix, they just won't be bugged to produce way too much damage. So it'll go back to being the best torp that no-one will slot because torps are useless unless the build is dedicated to them.
The underlying reasons of the build issues are far more complex and in essence require a redesign of ship layouts and slot's. I can't be bothered to go through that now though. Done it too many times and no-one ever listens.
Again, it is not the torpedo itself that is broken but, merely the game mechanics that cause it to reach godly like potential.
While we are on the subject of nerfing things, why not nerf AP weapons hmm?
They can be deemed OP, seeing how they can achieve far more crtd than any other energy type and, are backed by better dps capacity due to shear crth chances, not to mention the fact you can equip more than 1 Omni of that particular energy type mainly, backed even further that they are increased by 1 energy type of tac console needed to achieve said goal?
Heck nerf SS, nerf crtd, nerf crth, nerf go down fighting, etc...
Wow way to sound like a spoiled little brat there shadowwraith77.
What you said literally translates to:
"I can't have my favourite toy still so everyone else should have their toys taken away..."
AP has a bonus in CrtD as it has no other bonus effect. This only made them more popular when DPS became the metric by which to kill HP sponges. In PvP there are still many other preferable weapon types to AP. SS probably does need a bit of a nerf, it's better for pure DPS than BFAW3 is. I like that it's reducing the BFAW spam though, so it's a mixed bag.
As I said earlier in another thread though a proper balance pass with some serious work on it and the intent to fix many of the problem aspects with ships (such as loadouts etc...) would clean up this mess. However then you'd probably find something else to whine about.
Chris Robert's on SC:
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
Comments
In short, PvP looses a new toy and goes back to an old one that does the same thing. PvE looses a good new toy but then has to figure out how to keep up with the added requirements and difficulty.
I dont mind balance in a sense of scale, but when an Engineer captain in a Science ship (like mine, in a T5 non U non Fleet Intreped) is getting higher DPS than his four team mates combined, there is a problem.
I LOVED this torpedo, LOVED it, and you know what? I dont even have one! I loved it because seeing that thing fire off in a mission was like a signal flare, it told me 'thank god they have the handicap on' because I'm getting tired of pestering friends and fleet mates to do mark runs when the average player seems incapable of 2k DPS.
So my vote? Either turn the Red Shirt server into a PvP server, or give every weapon/piece of gear in the game two sets of stats. Normal stats for normal game play, and a mod free proc free 1/10th value version for PvP, that would scale the weapons damage and effect from the hull and shields of NPCs to what players have.
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
Now would be a good time as any to take a look at older weapons and bring them up to par with the new meta Cryptic themselves have set, especially torpedoes and mines, as well as regular Dual Cannons and normal Cannons. And if anything needed adjustment, it's AP weapons as a whole (making its innate CrtD bonus either have the weapons lose a mod per rarity or made a 2.5% CrtD chance on critical or something).
Sure, I get they don't want their darling toys representing DR to be overshadowed too much. Think about it; Neutronic is tied to Delta Reputation, which requires running their Delta-related queues for the rare drops and marks needed for them; so they're not likely to nerf it until they need more metrics in some other queues. But the least they can do is bring up some of the older weapons and equipment to make them reasonable alternatives.
Give normal non-Rep weapons additional unique mods (or in AP's case, take a mod away or adjust it) beyond just Over/Spread/Pen/Snare. For example, an [Extend] mod, which doubles the firing duration of the weapon before it "reloads"/recharges, making it capable of firing a double BO or an extended FaW/CSV/CRF from that emitter/cannon. Or a add the [Radius] mod to regular projectiles and other mines for a bit of AoE potential. Heck, allow for the [CrtX] mods on them as well.
Additionally, they should also allow for Mod picking in R&D at an increased cost (Dilithium, mats, etc; just allow for some picking period), to further make old-fashioned/classic weapons even more tempting over fixed mods of Dilithium weapons (from Rep stores) or Rep/Lockbox weapons.
Standard TS2: 200%
Standard TS3: 230%
Neutronic TS1: 120% (-50% below standard)
Neutronic TS2: 240% (+40% above standard)
Neutronic TS3: 360% (+130% above standard)
So yeah, the Neutronic's broken scaling is being fixed.
Do other torpedoes need to be fixed to be brought in line with that scaling?
Definitely...
Chroniton/Transphasic TS1: 138% (-32% below standard)
Chroniton/Transphasic TS2: 158% (-42% below standard)
Chroniton/Transphasic TS3: 178% (-52% below standard)
Elachi TS1: 160% (-10% below standard)
Elachi TS2: 183% (-17% below standard)
Elachi TS3: 206% (-27% below standard)
We cannot really compare it for say, to a standard quantum, because the standardized launch time for a quantum is 8secs., while the neutronic is 15secs.
It would fit into a different class of torpedo altogether!
Granted, the other torpedo types actually need a increase but, by no means really does this torpedo need a decrease IMO.
Making it closer resemble a completely different torpedo, in regards to spread dmg, than keeping it at almost double that for regular launch times, will work towards even less dps than indicated overall!
Even with the 2pc. bonus of 20% cd reduction, that is still an average launch wait of 12secs.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Sure we can...same way we can compare a Photon and a Quantum. The Photon is 6s and has a base of 1352. The Quantum is 8s and has a base of 1503.
Tada...simple.
The Neutronic is 15s and has a base of 1830...as well as a 3km AoE that does Rad damage, drains subsystem power, and reduces power transfer rate.
So you compare it to a standard Quantum, yeah?
Increased damage? Yep.
3km AoE doing Rad damage, draining subsystem power, and reducing transfer rate? Yep.
Guess what's going to happen to the CD/recharge on the torp?
Longer!
Tada...simple...done.
edit: My bad, I forgot the Unique equip to help offset the advantages it has over the standard Quantum which aren't covered by just boosting its recharge.
Like the Grav Photon, it's 8s instead of 6s, maintains the same 1352 base, has the chance to create a Grav Rift, and is Unique equip.
Like the Enhanced Bio-Molecular Photon, maintains the 1352 base, maintains the 6s, but has the Bio-Molecular action going for it, which gives it 4 mods instead of three...and ends up Unique equip.
The regular Bio-Molecular Photons by comparison, have a 7s recharge and only 3 mods...not Unique equip.
Things are balanced at the weapon.
Torp Spread is a neutral buff. Asking for it to affect torps differently would be like asking for Torp Tac Consoles to affect them differently...that Quantum console should be +X% for Quantums and +Y% for the Neutronic.
If somebody has balancing concerns with a torpedo, then the place to address them is with the torpedo.
The TS issue a TS issue...it's not working correctly with all the torps.
Easy fix is to stop the excessive scaling.
To those who think that fixing the balance in this game is impossible, you are wholly wrong. It just takes someone who has the drive and the knowledge to do a full pass of the content to do so. Seeing as Space is totally disconnected from Ground that reduces the pressure as you can concentrate on a single area straight up. Seeing as there are many MMO's that have balance that works and has worked for years (yes there's bugs but they work on those for the most part), there's absolutely no reason STO cannot be rebalanced to reduce the difficulty issues and player competence issues.
Player competence is partly tutelage and partly knowledge. However there will always be a split like in any real world sport. You don't hear someone who plays Tennis at club level whining they can't beat Novak Djokovic or Andy Murray. There will always be those that put the effort in to be the best. It's only in computer gaming where those who play casually claim they should be among the best just because they grace the game with their presence...
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
That would be like comparing the gravimetric torpedo to a standard photon torpedo, one doesn't have the additional dmg, while the other does or, even using the biometric reputation torpedo vs standard photon torpedo!
Standard torpedoes aren't necessarily meant to compete, with reputation torpedoes due to the added nature, of the additional dmg proc that can occur!
The neutronic isn't a quantum torpedo for say, so you cannot really compare it exactly to a basic torpedo!
The additional kinetic dmg it does over a standard quantum, is why it has the lengthy launch time, the extra rad dmg is due to design of being reputation weapon by nature.
So, rad dmg aside, making it equally match the dmg spread of a quantum, will make the 2 equal but, not equal in regards to standard launch times.
A differential of 327 dmg at 1.5x the standard launch time, would actually work to lower the overall dps value, when both are equalized in spread dmg.
Even with the 20% reduction from the 2pc. set, it would still fall short by 50% in launch time dps overall.
And, this doesn't even cover that the neutronic gets 1 less torpedo per spread vs a quantum!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
I made those comparisons in the edit to my post.
Turrets have a base DPV of 45.
DCs have a base DPV of 87.
Both have a 4/3 RoF, but one has a 360 arc and the other a 45 arc.
DHCs have a base DPV of 174, but they sport a 2/3 RoF.
Arrays have a base DPV of 100.
DBBs have a base DPV of 130.
Both have a 4/5 RoF, but one has a 250 arc and the other a 90 arc.
You change one thing, you've got to change another. That's balance.
Say you increase the damage, what are you going to change to reflect that?
Say you add a special effect, what are you going to change to reflect that?
Say you reduce the recharge, what are you going to change to reflect that?
You don't just keep adding stuff and go cool! :rolleyes:
Energy weapons, would be a somewhat bad example, as torpedoes are all limited mainly to the same firing arc (180 launcher excluded).
Do that for energy weapons as a whole and, despite their listed dps ratings, some would go up in respect to that alone.
While others would drop significantly no?
Very Rare Enhanced Bio-Molecular Photon Torpedo Launcher Mk XII
Standard: 4582
TS1: 3885.1x2 (7770.2); 169.6%
TS2: 3066.1x3 (9198.3); 200.7%; 118.4%
TS3: 2660.8x4 (10643.2); 232.3%, 137.0%
See Note 3
Very Rare Gravimetric Photon Torpedo Launcher Mk XII
Standard: 4582
TS1: 3885.1x2 (7770.2); 169.6%
TS2: 3066.1x3 (9198.3); 200.7%; 118.4%
TS3: 2660.8x4 (10643.2); 232.3%; 137.0%
See Note 2
Very Rare Neutronic Torpedo Launcher Mk XII
Standard: 6201.9
TS1: 7470.6x1 (7470.6); 120.5%
TS2: 7470.6x2 (14941.2); 240.9%; 200%
TS3: 7470.6x3 (22411.8); 361.4%; 300%
Looks like a huge difference in spread dmg but, compare the average launch time when not engaging TS.
Enhanced bio-molecular torpedo=6secs.
Gravimetric torpedo=6secs.
Neutronic torpedo=15secs.
So, let's say we need wait 30secs., before we can initialize another TS.
During which time the launch times would go as such roughly (meaning not 100% exact)!
Enhanced bio-molecular torpedo=4-5 launches or 18328-22910dmg between TS's
Gravimetric torpedo=4-5 launches or 18328-22910dmg between TS's
Neutronic torpedo=1-2 launches or 6201.9-12403.8dmg between TS's
That's almost a +200%-300% dmg possibility, on the other 2 photon based torpedoes, vs the neutronic during those 30sec. waiting periods between TS's.
Than comes our next spread!!!
Rinse and repeat when TS is on CD!
Granted all torpedoes can be reduced in launch times but, the neutronic will also always fall behind in retrospect to the others listed with less launch times normally.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
http://postimg.org/image/5if31whtv/ Just under 20k
http://postimg.org/image/qtfb8y0zx/ Over 20k with power levels over 75 and AMP warp core.
The only bridge officer powers I have running is Tac team and Torpedo spread 3. At that damage I don’t care about a sliver of shields, in fact I don’t care about full shields. That’s still 15k to shields after resistance and if I crit well the numbers get crazy. Then add on the new command tree that gives me -125 hull resistance and shearing so 40% of that damage becomes a very large DoT over 6 seconds. Then add on the weapon disables all ships in a 3km blast due to virus torpedoes and I can see why people complain. I use the torpedo for a theme but since the last patch its damage has tripled and it’s got crazy.
Also note I have not upgraded the weapon to gold level and APA+APO+TacFleet+GDF could for some pilots be stacked up on the above.
Even with the 15sec. possible global cd on TS, the only way this torpedo becomes viable when comparing possible dmg loss in the regular launch times category.
Is using torpedo doffs but, this yields at best a chance to narrow the gap!
As for the -125+ npc hull resistance, well that works for anything really!
So, again it isn't the torpedo for say itself but, everything else in game that makes it seem so OPing.
OP crth rates
OP crtd rates
OP cd reductions
OP DR debuffs
OP dmg buffs
etc...
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Why are players saying that it isn't? You're making yourselves look silly.
Free Tibet!
Dafuq are you babbling about? The Torp can one shot people without buffing. With buffing it can one shot multiple people. There are a beam setups that can one shot as well, but this discussion isn't about those. It's about a torp that can do a 5 man team's worth of spike damage in a single volley when fully buffed. Speccing Command would make it even higher. I don't see why you are bringing straw man arguments about other issues (which are more than well documented across the forum) into this discussion about a torpedo that's just broken.
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
If you want to achieve the highest DPS, Go faw and beams or dual beams .
Check the video where STO ryan did 60k or something with the Voyager I was there with my torp Faeht , not fully upgraded yet but almost and I had 2 copies of TS3 and I did about 16k. let's say it'd have been 20k. with my Scimitar I hit 30k just smashing spacebar lol .
On the other hand, in a C&H , I remember the same faeht wiping out an entire team and Nando shouting " what the hell did you do , Arthas ? "
This team was not made of the average noobs of the street there was Vex, maybe T'lol I don't remember very well but they were good players AFAIK .:)
So I don't see good reasons why the PvErs should cry for this nerf this nerf won't change their life my pve Rom has no neutronic torp lol
It's happening. Get over it.
Free Tibet!
They may be getting the wrong impression, that it is bugged or, as you stated before broken!
Maybe you haven't read the part where, it is a weapon designed for pve use above anything, and environment maid for high dmg/dps, not some paltry excuse for what we have as pvp.
It again isn't the torpedo itself, nor is it mainly TS3, it is all the other combined OPing TRIBBLE in game that allows it to achieve such high #'s.
Nerf all of those as well, while you are at it huh?
I have done the math and, technically it isn't broken/bugged, despite what a Dev is saying and, may have been lead to believe!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
That was a blatantly broken weapon - a rifle at Mk II doing more damage than another rifle at Mk XIV - but people still complained that it was a nerf. It's exactly the same situation here. There's no reason at all for a weapon at Mk XII to do more DPS than a weapon at MK XIV.
Call it "broken" - call it "bugged" - call it "OP" - the end result is the same. A weapon doing far more damage than it should be doing.
Here's hoping it's fixed soon.
Free Tibet!
You can call it TRIBBLE all you want but, the fact remains, the torpedo itself is not the issue!
It's everything else in game, that boosts its potential!!!
That is what requires the nerf, not the actual torpedo itself.
All I see, are a bunch of QQ, wanting to nerf something that doesn't require it, while what actually is causing the issues as far as game mechanics are concerned, remain untouched!!!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
There is a HUGE difference, between these types of comparisons.
A mkxiv basic torpedo vs a mkxii specialty torpedo, should never be classed the same!
Again, it is not the actual torpedo that is the issue, it's everything else in game, that boosts weapons to seemingly OP potentials, that is what requires the nerfing.
Or, maybe you aren't aware of people doing over 100k dps in pve, w/o a single torpedo?
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
EDIT: Oops, Misread the abbreviation.
Normally, I hate nerfs. But, ultimately, it's all a matter of how long something has been allowed to persist. When Bort nerfed the Borg set, I was annoyed, as Cryptic had allowed it to function the way it did for so long, that it could be construed as tacit approval on their end. Neutronic torp is pretty new, though. It's only fair, and prudent, to nip this thing in the bud, ere people get *really* upset about it, later on.
And again. Neutronic torpedo is NOT getting the nerf, Neutronic Torpedo TSpread2 and TSpread3 are.
While they will boost Transport Warhead with same torpedo.
And Neutronic HY should get massive boost because it's weakest of any torpedo in practice.
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I'm not QQ'ing mate. It's broken when using TS2/3 it's broken again when using HY (just the opposite way). So however you look at it, the torpedo needs fixing.
Your arguments as to why it's been designed are irrelevant. The Torp will still get boosts after the fix, they just won't be bugged to produce way too much damage. So it'll go back to being the best torp that no-one will slot because torps are useless unless the build is dedicated to them.
The underlying reasons of the build issues are far more complex and in essence require a redesign of ship layouts and slot's. I can't be bothered to go through that now though. Done it too many times and no-one ever listens.
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
While this may seem to alleviate the situation, it still doesn't hit upon all the other hugely dmg boosting issues in game!
I expect people to still cry OP and, want the torpedo directly nerfed itself!!!
You can still wipe a group of PC's out using regular torpedoes, it just requires precise timing and, the hopes of landing some critical hits when they do land!
But, this holds true in almost any given circumstance.
I mean what looks worse?
A TS doing 30-70k crit per torpedox4 torpedoes=120k-280k?
or
A TS doing 100-200k crit per torpedox3 torpedoes=300k-600k?
Either way, you are dead!!!
Hell, I have blown PC's out of the stars, off of one of the torpedoes using TS1 no less, when they are weakened slightly!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
People keep saying fantasy stuff like "it is not possible to make something behave like X in PvP but not in PvE and that it would cost unbelievable amounts of hours and money"
How about no?
Here is a quote from System Designer Borticus about fixing Ionic Turbulence:
So, you. See.
And to answer to this as well
Those numbers for spread with other torpedos are not correct for PvP. That is the issue. Only for neutronic.
1. repeating the fact. In the video i don't use torpedo boosting consoles. Damage is huge.
2. Neutronic torpedo eats through shields and applies huge AoE radiation DoT and subsys drain on top of it
3. It is indeed, not a single issue, but doesnt change the fact that no other torpedo on Spread can come even close to 200k marker per torp in PvE, or per spread vs 1 target in PvP
While on the flipside Neutronic TS1 is weak in comparison and Neutronic HY is so weak it is better to equip a Mk II photon in it's place, so to say.
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Again, it is not the torpedo itself that is broken but, merely the game mechanics that cause it to reach godly like potential.
While we are on the subject of nerfing things, why not nerf AP weapons hmm?
They can be deemed OP, seeing how they can achieve far more crtd than any other energy type and, are backed by better dps capacity due to shear crth chances, not to mention the fact you can equip more than 1 Omni of that particular energy type mainly, backed even further that they are increased by 1 energy type of tac console needed to achieve said goal?
Heck nerf SS, nerf crtd, nerf crth, nerf go down fighting, etc...
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
What you said literally translates to:
"I can't have my favourite toy still so everyone else should have their toys taken away..."
AP has a bonus in CrtD as it has no other bonus effect. This only made them more popular when DPS became the metric by which to kill HP sponges. In PvP there are still many other preferable weapon types to AP. SS probably does need a bit of a nerf, it's better for pure DPS than BFAW3 is. I like that it's reducing the BFAW spam though, so it's a mixed bag.
As I said earlier in another thread though a proper balance pass with some serious work on it and the intent to fix many of the problem aspects with ships (such as loadouts etc...) would clean up this mess. However then you'd probably find something else to whine about.
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."