And yet the Kobali mercilessly hunt down runners and drag them back against their will so they can finish destroying the personality they were naturally born with.
The Kobali victims aren't newborns. They are sentient beings who are being violated both physically and mentally against their wills.
On one hand I wholly agree with you. If this were real life and a person were abducted from their home, brainwashed and encouraged to forgo their previous existence, it would be a serious violation of more international laws than I can even count.
However, this isnt the real world. In the Star Trek universe I am sure there numerous people from a multitude of cultures that share your point of view to a tee, just as I am certain there would be an equal number of individuals that disagree. When it boils down to brass tax, they never abducted anyone. The collected the dead and gave them a new opportunity at life. As Kobali, of course. Self-serving? Absolutely! Thats how theyve chosen to propagate their species as, apparently, they have lost the ability to physically reproduce (perhaps too many centuries of cloning?)
It has been explained that not all who are reborn retain the memories of their past lives for long. This is why it is crucial that they remain with their new Kobali family until this transition takes place. Most choose to stay among the Kobali after they lose their memories. Most, not all. Once the initial state of confusion, etc. passes they are free to make their own choices. A very rare few retain memories beyond their transition phase. Most do not. Who they were is truly dead, but the body is given an opportunity to live on.
I dont see anyone complaining that Trill undergo a not wholly dissimilar process when they accept to become a host. Their personality is muted and overshadowed by the Trill parasite. Who they were before the joining ceases to exist. Some Trill are even selected to be hostbearers from birth, giving them absolutely no say in their fate whatsoever. How is this any different?
I did not enjoy the puzzles. That sort of unforgiving, perfection-demanding platformer stuff belongs in, if anything, elite STFs and that's all. Using it to pad the length of a story mission just takes the only part of STO that is still relaxing and casual- solo story play- and lowers it to the standard set by the rest of DR.
I enjoyed the story even less. The premise is using force to make someone become someone else against their will. It's obscene. The Kobali are evil. Making them our good guy, do no wrong allies in the storyline is a serious plot misstep.
There's a lot of good in this mission- the effects are very well-done. The combat outside the temple was fun, I liked fighting the tanks. The ship chase at warp showed off what can be done, it was just too short. The VO was good.
I dont mind puzzles as long as it makes sense for the story that they are there. This maze and the other platform-eqsue elements have a purpose to the story. Young Kobali-Kim is trying to throw hurdles in your way. What better than electrified floors and a maze?
AS for the latter comment of evil Kobali, see above.
I did not enjoy the puzzles. That sort of unforgiving, perfection-demanding platformer stuff belongs in, if anything, elite STFs and that's all. Using it to pad the length of a story mission just takes the only part of STO that is still relaxing and casual- solo story play- and lowers it to the standard set by the rest of DR.
The jumping puzzles only remind everyone how terrible ground movement is in this game.
I'm not sure why they wanted that highlighted.
The difference with the Trill is, they are given the choice to undergo joining. They can choose to or not. And the symbiote personality does not override the host. The two blend together to form a new personality. The majority of the host personality remains intact, but there are influences from past hosts (such as Ezri becoming left handed after joining). The Trill are allowed to remain in contact and even live with those from their lives prior to joining (as long as they don't hook up with a past host's partner, but they can still be friends with them). The Trill are given years of training before joining to make this transition easier. They are carefully selected and can opt out at any time before joining.
Kobali don't do any of that. They just take random corpses and essentially desecrate them. What if the family of the deceased wants to bury them? To say goodbye to their loved one? They can't, because these aliens have come along and irrevicably altered them without so much as a "Hey, can we do this?"
The main problem people seem to have with the Kobali isn't the ressurection and conversion thing, but the complete lack permission in doing so.
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A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
And the symbiote personality does not override the host. The two blend together to form a new personality.
And yet one of the episodes they ended up not making suggests that Jadzia, without Dax was a completely different person with her own dreams and inspirations, that were subsumed by the Dax persona.
If they didn't make it, it can't be used as evidence. With the proper training, a Trill host can take in the influences from the symbiote and incorperate it into their own personality properly. Yes, there are changes. There may even be large changes. I'm fairly sure Jadzia's love of all things Klingon is an influence from Curzon, and not something she did before joining. But she knew she was going to have changes like that happen to her. She was prepared for it. It was a choice she made herself. Kobali don't give that option. They just take dead bodies, bring them back to life and override the personality before with a new one.
That is ultimately the main difference here. Trills change their personalities by a willing, informed and well prepared choice. Kobali do not.
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A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
Joined Trills are all volunteers, and there is a strict screening process to weed out unsuitable hosts.
Kobali victims are not. The Kobali rob any grave they come across.
You are minding your own business with the expectation that if you die everything possible will be done to save you and return you to the existence you've known your whole life.
Only that's not what happens. You wake up, if you wake up... In a medical facility, but instead of being allowed to return to your loved ones, you find that you are being subjected to radical medical procedures against your will. Procedures that radically change your physical appearance, your sexual identity, and your mind and personality is being chemically altered and destroyed and replaced with new memories. If you manage to escape they hunt you down to continue the process.
Big [redacted] difference.
In real life terms you die. Heart attack, drowning, accident... On the way to or at the hospital you are revived. Instead of going home you are kept sedated and you are given complex plastic surgery as well as a sex change, and you are subjected to chemicals and drugs that are intended erase your memory so new false memories can be implanted.
Months later in a moment of lucidity you break free of the drug induced haze to find you don't recognize yourself in the mirror. Your plumbing is wrong. Your loved ones were told you are dead. People you've never met are claiming to be your family. When you try to leave the strangers restrain you and forcefully medicate you because they know whats best for you. You are just a piece of meat whose rights died long ago. You belong to someone else now. And they will keep treating you until you accept that there are five lights not four.
Very well put. As someone with relatives suffering from Alzheimer's disease, I was heavily affected by this mission, and not in a good way. Memories are what makes you who you are. Stealing them while pretending to "do what's best for you" is one of the vilest things imaginable, and I could see reflections of my own relatives in Harry Kim's struggle in trying to stay himself.
The whole story was a travesty. This person wakes up with a fragmented memory, and obvious physical changes. From his (correct) perspective, a doppleganger has taken his place and is living in his house, doing his job and hugging his relatives, while he's being transformed against his will, and his memories destroyed. And now we're railroaded into "talking sense" into him. How could we? He's the sane one.
Making the Kobali "good guys" makes very little sense if you spend any time thinking about the implications of what they do. If the Starfleet and Delta Alliance were to act ethically, they'd blockade Kobali Prime and other possible planets of theirs, allocate funds to research towards ending their infertility, and if that's not possible, have them live the rest of their lives peacefully behind the blockade, and die out. Even if a cure was found, they'd still have to be wary of "traditionalists" who'd want to "reproduce" the old way.
Very well put. As someone with relatives suffering from Alzheimer's disease, I was heavily affected by this mission, and not in a good way. Memories are what makes you who you are. Stealing them while pretending to "do what's best for you" is one of the vilest things imaginable, and I could see reflections of my own relatives in Harry Kim's struggle in trying to stay himself.
The whole story was a travesty. This person wakes up with a fragmented memory, and obvious physical changes. From his (correct) perspective, a doppleganger has taken his place and is living in his house, doing his job and hugging his relatives, while he's being transformed against his will, and his memories destroyed. And now we're railroaded into "talking sense" into him. How could we? He's the sane one.
Making the Kobali "good guys" makes very little sense if you spend any time thinking about the implications of what they do. If the Starfleet and Delta Alliance were to act ethically, they'd blockade Kobali Prime and other possible planets of theirs, allocate funds to research towards ending their infertility, and if that's not possible, have them live the rest of their lives peacefully behind the blockade, and die out. Even if a cure was found, they'd still have to be wary of "traditionalists" who'd want to "reproduce" the old way.
The Harry Kim he was is dead. The only way we can "reanimate" him is the Kobali process. Maybe there are theoretically different ways to do it, maybe even better - but clearly no one in the Star Trek universe that knows such a process - if there is anyone - is around.
Why is it better for him to stay dead? If we were to put his corpse in the earth and let worms and other life feed on him, why is that better than giving the corpse a new life, a new existence, a new chance at learning about the world and finding a place in it?
If you ask the Kobali we see around on Kobali Prime, do they give you the impression they don't want to exist anymore? That they would have preferred to rot away? They never wanted to exist in the first place?
The hatred people seem to level against the Kobali make me think that some people really haven't gotten the "IDIC" message yet...
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Reanimating a corpse so it wakes up as a Kobali is fine. Provided they have permission from the family first.
The problem is, certainly in the case of Kim, he remembers his past life. He isn't a blank slate like most of the Kobali are, he remembers, he is still his own sentient being. And that is being over-written while he is conciously aware of it. That's the issue. He came back. He is still Kim. But he's slowly being transformed into something else, and told "This is what's best for you. You have no choice but to accept it." If he was being transformed into something else before he died, everyone would be trying to find a way to return him back to human. If he awoke from death already with the Kobali mindset and no memories, I have a feeling it would be alot less controversial.
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A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
Kim Rhodes acting was superb!!!Get this actress back!!! Kim Rhodes was Jhet'leya. I could hear her expressions in her voice. I wasn't hearing Kim read Jhet'leya as we have seen with a few of the actors reprising their roles. Her performance was authentic, and I loved it! Jhet'leya should be the official Kobali representative if not their ambassador. I hope we get to see more of her.
Don't care much about the zombie BOFF. Wasn't that great for me and what ruined it was the maze and the platforms. Hated those that wanted to make you feel like a rat looking for cheese. Could have done a better and more story lines similar like Surface Tension or even Whats left Behind
Looking for a derange zombie is not a GREAT mission for me :P
I do agree that Kim Rhodes was the best performance on this mission... she does great "voice over"...you can sense the undertones in her speech.:)
The Harry Kim he was is dead. The only way we can "reanimate" him is the Kobali process. Maybe there are theoretically different ways to do it, maybe even better - but clearly no one in the Star Trek universe that knows such a process - if there is anyone - is around.
Why is it better for him to stay dead? If we were to put his corpse in the earth and let worms and other life feed on him, why is that better than giving the corpse a new life, a new existence, a new chance at learning about the world and finding a place in it?
If you ask the Kobali we see around on Kobali Prime, do they give you the impression they don't want to exist anymore? That they would have preferred to rot away? They never wanted to exist in the first place?
The hatred people seem to level against the Kobali make me think that some people really haven't gotten the "IDIC" message yet...
No he isn't. Or did you miss the part where they can and have come back with their memories and personality mostly intact. This has happened in the only two instances where we have shown the rebirth process at work
All evidence points to Kobali not being blank slates when they are resurrected.
Again, the 'it creates new life, so it's better than no life' argument. Which could very easily be used to justify nonconsensual sex that results in offspring. Just because it results in life where there was none before, doesn't justify an act. The act of brainwashing, corpse desecration, and mutilation is B]not[/B] justified by the the fact that it produces a new individual-which itself is heavily debatable. (considering that both Kim and Ballard were essentially the same person, but purple and with some amnesia)
Also, there's the concepts of Euthanasia and assisted suicide. Believe it or not, many people would actually prefer to die than to suffer. They Kobali deny the subject the courtesy of an opinion on whether they should remain dead or be brought back to suffer essentially a second death-death of personality in this case, as opposed to physical death.
And the loss of one's self-their personality, their memories, etc. That's some pretty hefty suffering for someone to go through. So it's not as simple as saying 'well it's better than being dead'. Not for many people. Klingons, Humans, and Vulcans are all familiar with these practices in Trek-particularly the Klingons.
The Kobali themselves do not follow IDIC anyways, as they keep awakened Kobali from running away and choosing their own path until the rebirth process is 'complete'....and wouldn't you know it-after the rebirth process no Kobali identifies with their old life or wishes to pursue it.
It's brainwashing, pure and simple- to follow the narrow definition of what Kobali deem appropriate wants and desires and thoughts.
Seriously, all other examples we have of creatures that do similar things in Trek...the Bluegills, the Ceti Eels, the Borg, etc are all universally considered to be reprehensible, why is it that some are willing to give the Kobali a break?
Reanimating a corpse so it wakes up as a Kobali is fine. Provided they have permission from the family first.
The problem is, certainly in the case of Kim, he remembers his past life. He isn't a blank slate like most of the Kobali are, he remembers, he is still his own sentient being. And that is being over-written while he is conciously aware of it. That's the issue. He came back. He is still Kim. But he's slowly being transformed into something else, and told "This is what's best for you. You have no choice but to accept it." If he was being transformed into something else before he died, everyone would be trying to find a way to return him back to human. If he awoke from death already with the Kobali mindset and no memories, I have a feeling it would be alot less controversial.
That's what bothered me about it most, although the lack of consent would have bothered me regardless: having him be conscious while his personality was slowly eaten away.
I honestly thought the episode was setting up for a suicide or at the least, a suicide by cop. Dark, but it would have worked (not to mentioned really slammed Jhet'leya HARD with the full burden of her hideous decision).
It's also a good thing Berat's Borg XO wasn't in the area for this one. She's normally very self-controlled, but Commander Redmond might well have left some casualties in her wake if she saw this happen to someone...
I just posted a short story...while it mostly takes place at the tail end of "Takedown" and before "Dust to Dust," it touches on a lot of these issues, through a conversation I badly wished I could've had with Eldex.
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No he isn't. Or did you miss the part where they can and have come back with their memories and personality mostly intact. This has happened in the only two instances where we have shown the rebirth process at work
All evidence points to Kobali not being blank slates when they are resurrected.
Mind, if we are open to the possibility that Kobali don't lie all the time, then there is evidence that the two cases we have seen kept unusually much of what they were before (Jhet'lya suggests that humans might be unusual in that way if inquired, and since the two shown rebirths were to humans...).
Even at a tenth of one percent thats thousands of people revived that retain their full memories on a regular basis and try to return to their original lives.
And if the number is more like 0.0001%? And as we saw on Voyager, even whats-her-face didn't remember every bit of her life - She had forgotten her parents entirely, which I think is what made her choose to go with The Kobali.
Anyway, from the end of the ground missions, its clear (to me anyway) that the Kobali are making strides to allow people to choose whether to be Kobalified or not. I can see a great many people from the Federation (And even the KDF) choosing to have their remains sent there and reanimated, enough that the Kobali will not have to go grave robbing.
And if the number is more like 0.0001%? And as we saw on Voyager, even whats-her-face didn't remember every bit of her life - She had forgotten her parents entirely, which I think is what made her choose to go with The Kobali.
Anyway, from the end of the ground missions, its clear (to me anyway) that the Kobali are making strides to allow people to choose whether to be Kobalified or not. I can see a great many people from the Federation (And even the KDF) choosing to have their remains sent there and reanimated, enough that the Kobali will not have to go grave robbing.
The Kobali promised the same thing in a previous episode, but we know they were planning to resurrect Harry at exactly the same time.
They lied once about exactly this sort of thing, what's to guarantee they wont again? Not to mention even before that they were deceiving their allies over the fact that they were using Vaaudwaur civilians and KIA soldiers as essentially brainwashed child soldiers conscripts.
Even if it is .0001% it still adds up to a ton of people each year when you take into consideration that it's the "birth" rate for an entire species.
Yep. Still, given their method of reproduction, it seems likely that their death rate would FAR outstrip their birth rate. I mean, it seems like it would be hard to search the galaxy for random corpse to reanimate. And presumably, the corpse can't be TOO degraded I would think (so some random bones probably won't work).
Also presumably, they can't reanimate a Kobali corpse.
So all in all, I fail to see how this species doesn't go extinct
That was probably the one aspect of this mission that did really keep me going: How is this going to end? Will Ket-Kim escape? Will he go down in a blaze of bitter glory? Will he plead the player to end his life or will he come to accept his new existence? I know the eventual ending may have frustrated some people and be seen as a touch pat, but its the pathos Wong and the Devs managed to bring to it that does sell it.
Consider for a moment that one single, simple line: "I just want to go home." It sums up all that Ket-Kim did and why keeps fighting and resisting. The problem is, when you get down to it, Ket-Kim's CAN'T go "home." To him falling out that hull breach was only a few minutes ago. To the rest of the galaxy over 30 years have passed. Everyone he knew and loved is either gone or moved on. Continuing his career in Starfleet would have been questionable with the changes in the political landscape and technological advances, to say nothing of Captain Kim being there. Even if you take out the whole Kobali aspect even its heartbreaking because for all intents and purposes Ket-Kim's life as he knew it IS over and he would have to come to understand and accept that, one way or the other.
It's probably true - he can't go home. Voyager has a different crew, the only one he still remembers is Tuvok. The rest have moved on.
He needs to find a new home. And we should not forget that he did that before - he wasn't intending to spend years in the Delta Quadrant. He wasn't even send on a deep space exploration mission. They were just send out to hunt the Maquis, which was basically in the Federation backyard. His "home" probably was still with his parents and all. But all that turned seemingly unreachable in one moment - and he had to adapt. He did. He made Voyager his home.
If there is anything of Kim left in "Ket-Kim", he'll do fine. Even if it's difficult for a while. And if there isn't anything of Kim left - he's a new person in this world and he'll have to find his way - some people do, some people don't.
Yep. Still, given their method of reproduction, it seems likely that their death rate would FAR outstrip their birth rate. I mean, it seems like it would be hard to search the galaxy for random corpse to reanimate. And presumably, the corpse can't be TOO degraded I would think (so some random bones probably won't work).
Also presumably, they can't reanimate a Kobali corpse.
So all in all, I fail to see how this species doesn't go extinct
I don't know - there are a lot of people dying all over the universe.
And if it wasn't for the Vaadwaur war, I think the Kobali don't actually live very violent or risky lifes. If they did, they probably would have more warships...
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That was probably the one aspect of this mission that did really keep me going: How is this going to end? Will Ket-Kim escape? Will he go down in a blaze of bitter glory? Will he plead the player to end his life or will he come to accept his new existence? I know the eventual ending may have frustrated some people and be seen as a touch pat, but its the pathos Wong and the Devs managed to bring to it that does sell it.
Consider for a moment that one single, simple line: "I just want to go home." It sums up all that Ket-Kim did and why keeps fighting and resisting. The problem is, when you get down to it, Ket-Kim's CAN'T go "home." To him falling out that hull breach was only a few minutes ago. To the rest of the galaxy over 30 years have passed. Everyone he knew and loved is either gone or moved on. Continuing his career in Starfleet would have been questionable with the changes in the political landscape and technological advances, to say nothing of Captain Kim being there. Even if you take out the whole Kobali aspect even its heartbreaking because for all intents and purposes Ket-Kim's life as he knew it IS over and he would have to come to understand and accept that, one way or the other.
As I mentioned earlier, the Kobali part is just an added wrinkle in a situation that has been seen before in Star Trek.
Probably the closest match for Kim's situation is time travel incidents. The crew of the USS Bozeman (TNG: "Cause and Effect") was stuck inside a temporal distortion for something like a century. The Enterprise-C got transported twenty-odd years into the future (TNG: "Yesterday's Enterprise"). And remember those Dominion ships in "Second Wave"?
By "Message in a Bottle" Voyager had been declared missing in action and presumed destroyed and the crew's families had moved on (e.g. Janeway's fiance had married somebody else).
The crew of the USS Rapier (Cardassian Struggle - Rapier) were stuck inside the wormhole for six years.
Not to mention any Federation POWs who got stuck in Rura Penthe or some such during the Klingon War.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
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Yep. Still, given their method of reproduction, it seems likely that their death rate would FAR outstrip their birth rate. I mean, it seems like it would be hard to search the galaxy for random corpse to reanimate. And presumably, the corpse can't be TOO degraded I would think (so some random bones probably won't work).
Also presumably, they can't reanimate a Kobali corpse.
So all in all, I fail to see how this species doesn't go extinct
IIRC, one of the Kobali during the Kobali arc mentions, at least if told the right things, that rebirth doesn't work a second time. So at least for the modern, corpse-generated Kobali they can't reanimate their corpses (it's possible, I suppose, that the original, 'true' Kobali before they did whatever they did to make ordinary reproduction impossible could be put through the process, but if so suitable Kobali corpses would be rare to non-existent, since they'd have been used before the Kobali got the corpse-taker infrastructure running).
Even if it is .0001% it still adds up to a ton of people each year when you take into consideration that it's the "birth" rate for an entire species.
Not necessarily - The Kobali are reported to have only just settled on Kobali Prime in the last few years. Before that they were nomads wandering the galaxy in ships, ergo they had to keep their numbers down. Remember Voyager with all its replicators and technological doodads frequently ran short of... Just about everything, and that was with only a handful of people. Too many people would spell doom (DOOOOOOM!) for everybody else, but likewise, too few would also be an issue (Which goes to explain why they were so keen on getting whats-her-name back in the show).
How do I start the mission, I have looked everywhere and im already pissed about something else and quite frustrated, more importantly how does anyone else start it!
How do I start the mission, I have looked everywhere and im already pissed about something else and quite frustrated, more importantly how does anyone else start it!
How do I start the mission, I have looked everywhere and im already pissed about something else and quite frustrated, more importantly how does anyone else start it!
O
It has been explained that not all who are reborn retain the memories of their past lives for long. This is why it is crucial that they remain with their new Kobali family until this transition takes place. Most choose to stay among the Kobali after they lose their memories. Most, not all. Once the initial state of confusion, etc. passes they are free to make their own choices. A very rare few retain memories beyond their transition phase. Most do not. Who they were is truly dead, but the body is given an opportunity to live on.
Best explanation of Kobali rebirth culture, I've seen yet. I'll add to it by using some real world examples. Should/Do we as a society allow people who are mentally imparied either by disease (e.g. Alzheimer's), a medical condition (e.g. Diabetic with very low blood sugar), or Drug induced (e.g. Alcohol or something like PCP) wonder free to act a community without restraint? I will only speak for for myself; but, I hope the majority with agree with me. I would not allow such people to act without supervision or restraint (if needed). They could endanger themselves, or others. This is how I see the situation with Keten after his removal from stasis.
Now as to Jhet'leya's family coming after her , I think it may have been a similar situation. She has substantial amount of memory from before and, probably a rare exception, retained those memories. The Kobali still considered her to be in a state of confusion. She fled from here family trying to regain here old life. But over the course of the episode, she finally came to realize she was Jhet,leya and not a revived Lynsey. She realized and accepted she was Kobali w/o coercion, brainwashing or force.
I dont see anyone complaining that Trill undergo a not wholly dissimilar process when they accept to become a host. Their personality is muted and overshadowed by the Trill parasite. Who they were before the joining ceases to exist. Some Trill are even selected to be hostbearers from birth, giving them absolutely no say in their fate whatsoever. How is this any different?
I see symbiote hosts personalities being suppressed. They are a blended personae. The personae has access to all of the memories of the old hosts. The host may take on personality traits of the old hosts, but they retain their own sense of self.
The Kobali promised the same thing in a previous episode, but we know they were planning to resurrect Harry at exactly the same time.
They lied once about exactly this sort of thing, what's to guarantee they wont again? Not to mention even before that they were deceiving their allies over the fact that they were using Vaaudwaur civilians and KIA soldiers as essentially brainwashed child soldiers conscripts.
According to Captain Kim in the mission, the Kobali have spent years with Keten in the rebirth process. They removed him from stasis once the rebirth virus had repaired the body enough to revive it.
As an aside, bringing in a bit of the real world, I can't see how Keten retained any memories at all. After initial tissue damage of exposure to vacuum, there is the damage done by the cryogenically cold temperatures. The water in the cells would eventually turn into ice crystals. The ice crystals at the scale of cells forms knife-like crystals. And since water also expands when it freezes the ice crystals rupture the cell membranes. If thawed, the tissue would basically goo.
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On one hand I wholly agree with you. If this were real life and a person were abducted from their home, brainwashed and encouraged to forgo their previous existence, it would be a serious violation of more international laws than I can even count.
However, this isnt the real world. In the Star Trek universe I am sure there numerous people from a multitude of cultures that share your point of view to a tee, just as I am certain there would be an equal number of individuals that disagree. When it boils down to brass tax, they never abducted anyone. The collected the dead and gave them a new opportunity at life. As Kobali, of course. Self-serving? Absolutely! Thats how theyve chosen to propagate their species as, apparently, they have lost the ability to physically reproduce (perhaps too many centuries of cloning?)
It has been explained that not all who are reborn retain the memories of their past lives for long. This is why it is crucial that they remain with their new Kobali family until this transition takes place. Most choose to stay among the Kobali after they lose their memories. Most, not all. Once the initial state of confusion, etc. passes they are free to make their own choices. A very rare few retain memories beyond their transition phase. Most do not. Who they were is truly dead, but the body is given an opportunity to live on.
I dont see anyone complaining that Trill undergo a not wholly dissimilar process when they accept to become a host. Their personality is muted and overshadowed by the Trill parasite. Who they were before the joining ceases to exist. Some Trill are even selected to be hostbearers from birth, giving them absolutely no say in their fate whatsoever. How is this any different?
I dont mind puzzles as long as it makes sense for the story that they are there. This maze and the other platform-eqsue elements have a purpose to the story. Young Kobali-Kim is trying to throw hurdles in your way. What better than electrified floors and a maze?
AS for the latter comment of evil Kobali, see above.
The jumping puzzles only remind everyone how terrible ground movement is in this game.
I'm not sure why they wanted that highlighted.
Kobali don't do any of that. They just take random corpses and essentially desecrate them. What if the family of the deceased wants to bury them? To say goodbye to their loved one? They can't, because these aliens have come along and irrevicably altered them without so much as a "Hey, can we do this?"
The main problem people seem to have with the Kobali isn't the ressurection and conversion thing, but the complete lack permission in doing so.
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
And yet one of the episodes they ended up not making suggests that Jadzia, without Dax was a completely different person with her own dreams and inspirations, that were subsumed by the Dax persona.
That is ultimately the main difference here. Trills change their personalities by a willing, informed and well prepared choice. Kobali do not.
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
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Very well put. As someone with relatives suffering from Alzheimer's disease, I was heavily affected by this mission, and not in a good way. Memories are what makes you who you are. Stealing them while pretending to "do what's best for you" is one of the vilest things imaginable, and I could see reflections of my own relatives in Harry Kim's struggle in trying to stay himself.
The whole story was a travesty. This person wakes up with a fragmented memory, and obvious physical changes. From his (correct) perspective, a doppleganger has taken his place and is living in his house, doing his job and hugging his relatives, while he's being transformed against his will, and his memories destroyed. And now we're railroaded into "talking sense" into him. How could we? He's the sane one.
Making the Kobali "good guys" makes very little sense if you spend any time thinking about the implications of what they do. If the Starfleet and Delta Alliance were to act ethically, they'd blockade Kobali Prime and other possible planets of theirs, allocate funds to research towards ending their infertility, and if that's not possible, have them live the rest of their lives peacefully behind the blockade, and die out. Even if a cure was found, they'd still have to be wary of "traditionalists" who'd want to "reproduce" the old way.
Why is it better for him to stay dead? If we were to put his corpse in the earth and let worms and other life feed on him, why is that better than giving the corpse a new life, a new existence, a new chance at learning about the world and finding a place in it?
If you ask the Kobali we see around on Kobali Prime, do they give you the impression they don't want to exist anymore? That they would have preferred to rot away? They never wanted to exist in the first place?
The hatred people seem to level against the Kobali make me think that some people really haven't gotten the "IDIC" message yet...
The problem is, certainly in the case of Kim, he remembers his past life. He isn't a blank slate like most of the Kobali are, he remembers, he is still his own sentient being. And that is being over-written while he is conciously aware of it. That's the issue. He came back. He is still Kim. But he's slowly being transformed into something else, and told "This is what's best for you. You have no choice but to accept it." If he was being transformed into something else before he died, everyone would be trying to find a way to return him back to human. If he awoke from death already with the Kobali mindset and no memories, I have a feeling it would be alot less controversial.
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
Looking for a derange zombie is not a GREAT mission for me :P
I do agree that Kim Rhodes was the best performance on this mission... she does great "voice over"...you can sense the undertones in her speech.:)
All evidence points to Kobali not being blank slates when they are resurrected.
Again, the 'it creates new life, so it's better than no life' argument. Which could very easily be used to justify nonconsensual sex that results in offspring. Just because it results in life where there was none before, doesn't justify an act. The act of brainwashing, corpse desecration, and mutilation is B]not[/B] justified by the the fact that it produces a new individual-which itself is heavily debatable. (considering that both Kim and Ballard were essentially the same person, but purple and with some amnesia)
Also, there's the concepts of Euthanasia and assisted suicide. Believe it or not, many people would actually prefer to die than to suffer. They Kobali deny the subject the courtesy of an opinion on whether they should remain dead or be brought back to suffer essentially a second death-death of personality in this case, as opposed to physical death.
And the loss of one's self-their personality, their memories, etc. That's some pretty hefty suffering for someone to go through. So it's not as simple as saying 'well it's better than being dead'. Not for many people. Klingons, Humans, and Vulcans are all familiar with these practices in Trek-particularly the Klingons.
The Kobali themselves do not follow IDIC anyways, as they keep awakened Kobali from running away and choosing their own path until the rebirth process is 'complete'....and wouldn't you know it-after the rebirth process no Kobali identifies with their old life or wishes to pursue it.
It's brainwashing, pure and simple- to follow the narrow definition of what Kobali deem appropriate wants and desires and thoughts.
Seriously, all other examples we have of creatures that do similar things in Trek...the Bluegills, the Ceti Eels, the Borg, etc are all universally considered to be reprehensible, why is it that some are willing to give the Kobali a break?
That's what bothered me about it most, although the lack of consent would have bothered me regardless: having him be conscious while his personality was slowly eaten away.
I honestly thought the episode was setting up for a suicide or at the least, a suicide by cop. Dark, but it would have worked (not to mentioned really slammed Jhet'leya HARD with the full burden of her hideous decision).
It's also a good thing Berat's Borg XO wasn't in the area for this one. She's normally very self-controlled, but Commander Redmond might well have left some casualties in her wake if she saw this happen to someone...
I just posted a short story...while it mostly takes place at the tail end of "Takedown" and before "Dust to Dust," it touches on a lot of these issues, through a conversation I badly wished I could've had with Eldex.
"The Blood of Dragons": http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1367221
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And if the number is more like 0.0001%? And as we saw on Voyager, even whats-her-face didn't remember every bit of her life - She had forgotten her parents entirely, which I think is what made her choose to go with The Kobali.
Anyway, from the end of the ground missions, its clear (to me anyway) that the Kobali are making strides to allow people to choose whether to be Kobalified or not. I can see a great many people from the Federation (And even the KDF) choosing to have their remains sent there and reanimated, enough that the Kobali will not have to go grave robbing.
They lied once about exactly this sort of thing, what's to guarantee they wont again? Not to mention even before that they were deceiving their allies over the fact that they were using Vaaudwaur civilians and KIA soldiers as essentially brainwashed child soldiers conscripts.
Yep. Still, given their method of reproduction, it seems likely that their death rate would FAR outstrip their birth rate. I mean, it seems like it would be hard to search the galaxy for random corpse to reanimate. And presumably, the corpse can't be TOO degraded I would think (so some random bones probably won't work).
Also presumably, they can't reanimate a Kobali corpse.
So all in all, I fail to see how this species doesn't go extinct
He needs to find a new home. And we should not forget that he did that before - he wasn't intending to spend years in the Delta Quadrant. He wasn't even send on a deep space exploration mission. They were just send out to hunt the Maquis, which was basically in the Federation backyard. His "home" probably was still with his parents and all. But all that turned seemingly unreachable in one moment - and he had to adapt. He did. He made Voyager his home.
If there is anything of Kim left in "Ket-Kim", he'll do fine. Even if it's difficult for a while. And if there isn't anything of Kim left - he's a new person in this world and he'll have to find his way - some people do, some people don't.
I don't know - there are a lot of people dying all over the universe.
And if it wasn't for the Vaadwaur war, I think the Kobali don't actually live very violent or risky lifes. If they did, they probably would have more warships...
- Probably the closest match for Kim's situation is time travel incidents. The crew of the USS Bozeman (TNG: "Cause and Effect") was stuck inside a temporal distortion for something like a century. The Enterprise-C got transported twenty-odd years into the future (TNG: "Yesterday's Enterprise"). And remember those Dominion ships in "Second Wave"?
- By "Message in a Bottle" Voyager had been declared missing in action and presumed destroyed and the crew's families had moved on (e.g. Janeway's fiance had married somebody else).
- The crew of the USS Rapier (Cardassian Struggle - Rapier) were stuck inside the wormhole for six years.
Not to mention any Federation POWs who got stuck in Rura Penthe or some such during the Klingon War.— Sabaton, "Great War"
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Not necessarily - The Kobali are reported to have only just settled on Kobali Prime in the last few years. Before that they were nomads wandering the galaxy in ships, ergo they had to keep their numbers down. Remember Voyager with all its replicators and technological doodads frequently ran short of... Just about everything, and that was with only a handful of people. Too many people would spell doom (DOOOOOOM!) for everybody else, but likewise, too few would also be an issue (Which goes to explain why they were so keen on getting whats-her-name back in the show).
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Best explanation of Kobali rebirth culture, I've seen yet. I'll add to it by using some real world examples. Should/Do we as a society allow people who are mentally imparied either by disease (e.g. Alzheimer's), a medical condition (e.g. Diabetic with very low blood sugar), or Drug induced (e.g. Alcohol or something like PCP) wonder free to act a community without restraint? I will only speak for for myself; but, I hope the majority with agree with me. I would not allow such people to act without supervision or restraint (if needed). They could endanger themselves, or others. This is how I see the situation with Keten after his removal from stasis.
Now as to Jhet'leya's family coming after her , I think it may have been a similar situation. She has substantial amount of memory from before and, probably a rare exception, retained those memories. The Kobali still considered her to be in a state of confusion. She fled from here family trying to regain here old life. But over the course of the episode, she finally came to realize she was Jhet,leya and not a revived Lynsey. She realized and accepted she was Kobali w/o coercion, brainwashing or force.
I see symbiote hosts personalities being suppressed. They are a blended personae. The personae has access to all of the memories of the old hosts. The host may take on personality traits of the old hosts, but they retain their own sense of self.
According to Captain Kim in the mission, the Kobali have spent years with Keten in the rebirth process. They removed him from stasis once the rebirth virus had repaired the body enough to revive it.
As an aside, bringing in a bit of the real world, I can't see how Keten retained any memories at all. After initial tissue damage of exposure to vacuum, there is the damage done by the cryogenically cold temperatures. The water in the cells would eventually turn into ice crystals. The ice crystals at the scale of cells forms knife-like crystals. And since water also expands when it freezes the ice crystals rupture the cell membranes. If thawed, the tissue would basically goo.