The bottom line in terms of grind is that I did an analysis that indicates that in normal content, WoW values player time at 285% the rate of Delta Rising's post-November 20th content. This is a pretty sound ludic analysis.
My analysis is a pretty sound attempt at hedonic appraisal of time value, I think. I even deducted for the subscription fee there.
I fully accept that this is a free game. I don't think this should feel like a free game for subscribers, however, and have said several times that I think serious XP gains for going gold would make a huge difference.
I have also suggested a "lockbox buffet" package with or without gold subscription. In general, most F2P games (not just STO) seem to have had activity dips. WoW gained 3 million players over the same time period. STO outperformed games with a more intense F2P grind model on steam charts and was outperformed by some hybrid games on the same charts that are closer to sub.
DCUO offers buffet lockbox access to its subscribers and my estimates suggest that the number of buffet packages to equal the value of one lockbox ship is relatively low. However many ships you're issuing now, you would only need maybe 10 buffet packages for each before I'd estimate that you'd make better money off a lockbox buffet than keys. I think the promise of unlimited box opening would easily drive gold subs or a separate lockbox buffet service and would lower your risk while increasing retention by spreading revenues out across more players rather than concentrating your sales on a few players who you lose more from if they quit.
On the whole, I think more sales but lower average sales per user seems like a better longterm strategy along with really focusing on converting free players into direct spenders rather than relying so heavily on indirect monetization and big spenders. I think that was probably a great approach for PWE in 2009-10 but that rising Chinese economic prosperity and American economic recovery (particularly for what I assume are prime demos like college educated millennials) are -- I THINK -- going to yield a resurgence of the sub game and make hybrid that takes it hybridization seriously with REAL buffet incentives and a focus on conversion into direct spending a better strategy than F2P.
Also, I understand people may take issue with parts of this.
Really, I think the XP values are especially out of whack for a western hybrid or sub game and are likely to turn off $15 a month spenders and lifers.
I'm not sure how many times I have to say the same thing, but I really, REALLY don't mind hearing negative comments, criticisms of the game, etc. I really DO mind when those comments and criticisms are not civil or respectful. I don't only want to hear good things, or have my ego stroked. I just want that feedback to be constructive, not bilious.
People keep saying that the forum sigs are a joke, and are meant to affect change. . . but change what? The signatures say nothing of what you want. What they do, is make a cheap jab at the devs. It's clear that you don't like something, but the signatures do nothing to tell me (or anyone) what it is.
You want us to interact like adults? Great! Let's do that. Using our words. In a polite, respectful manner (on BOTH sides).
Making a passive aggressive meme is not helping anything, IMHO.
Edit: The thing with the sigs, is it isn't any one sig that's so terrible I cry myself to sleep at night. It's that the abundance and persistence of them is just grating over time. Like I said, they feel like little jabs at the whole dev team for a single comment most of us had nothing to do with. That is wearing, and after a while, makes me not want to subject myself to it anymore.
Eidt 2: For what it's worth, I'm an ESFP last I checked. . .
Taco I would normally agree with you if not for what happened to me last week when I tried to have a civil discussion and point out a certain flaw in the game that is actually a game stopper for PVPer this is the article I'm talking about http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=21589451#post21589451 I was straight to the point I flamed no one... Because I actually did not think that the ideas that were conveyed in another post were being relayed correctly hence this would appear if you read the post you will see there are valid points here there's nothing wrong with what I wrote if you go by the adage that the developers say that they don't want anything in the game that one shot kill someone or perma disables them then how is this not a bug?? Do you know what I got I got a ban and I got my thread closed so you tell me how I'm supposed to feel about that? Remember the point here is you and developers have said you don't want something that gives a one shot kill or perma disables something we have given you proof we've given you numbers and what we get working as intended close the thread and ban.......... really??? OH and its still BROKEN
- 300% skill/spec points in normal content and 1200% skill/spec points in advanced/elite queues for gold players, AT LEAST for the first level earned each week. The buff can expire on level up and can be reapplied at the start of the new week if need be.
Possibly consider:
- Offering other grind and cooldown reductions to gold, possibly including reductions in upgrade/crafting timegate skip fees if not eliminating some outright. Possibly including bonus duty officer commendation points.
- Retiring the lifetime offer.
- Making lockboxes autodestruct after 30 days in inventory.
- Allowing gold or some similar buffet service on lockboxes as a direct payment (not for ZEN) option to drive direct purchases.
- Set the buffet right and this defrays your risk, creating less big spender reliance.
See, THOSE are what your signatures should be talking about. Not simply stating that you are displeased. Express WHAT you're displeased about, and maybe even how you think it could be addressed.
Uhmmm...Taco...he basically listed off everything that changed in Delta Rising.
So, wouldn't that pretty much mean the signatures are right on target?
Just sayin'.
"You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack.
I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
Sure, I get that, and I don't disagree. However, the signatures are the equivalent of standing outside of the Cryptic office holding signs that say "This sucks!"
. . . uh. . . ok. . . WHAT sucks? Without expounding on the issue you are protesting, it comes across as protesting the everything.
First...phew, finally got through all the pages I'd missed. I know my quote is from when you last replied to me all those pages back, but I still wanted to.
To continue with my 'employees on strike' analogy...Do picket signs in the real world ever say much more than 'This sucks!'? No, they say very general things, or use slogans to say something to prove a point, whatever that might be. The single choice of signature was a unifying face to it all for here on the forums.
People go on strike because they feel they have no other options left. They decide that if the more normal means won't work, they will stand outside, waving signs all day, and will stay that way until they can open a line of communication again.
They aren't going to expect to get everything they ask for should the company decide to talk, that's just unrealistic, but they know that changes will occur.
A similar thing has already happened here Taco. People went on 'strike' in a way by making these signatures. And now, in this thread, by your opening that 'line' in a matter of speaking, already a few people have chosen freely to get rid of those signatures, in essence, putting down their picket signs.
I dunno what might come of all this. Maybe we will be back to how things were in a week, who knows really. But just know that they did matter, those signatures, but also that you mattered, by choosing to talk to us.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
...I don't believe that to be the case, but IF that's the true, and IF the signatures are your "last option" and IF they are driving away your last hope. . . they aren't working either....
I understand the whole signature is not helping. That's why I removed mine, it was fun, but like any jokes, it's better when it's short.
I don't understand them as a joke. In my opinion, the signature campaign is a very creative and mannered way of expressing the proportions of satisfaction. Like a poll, we never got offered. Suddenly it became visually obvious, that it is not such a small minority.
And if this does not help ... well, then I think, nothing helps and the situation is much worse than assumed.
Sure, there are other ways to get some attention an reactions.
Like perhaps writing user-reviews on other platforms.
Just a note for everyone who still thinks and says "but they started it!":
Sometimes, in order to get what you really want, you have to let stuff like that go. Even if you are right (I mean, we always think that we are, but let's say that you really really are). As long as you are stuck on that point, things are never going to move past it. We're going to stay here, in the middle of the road, fighting about that one thing.
So you need to decide, all of you, what's more important to you: being right, getting that apology that you deserve... or getting anything else that you want and are asking for.
First...phew, finally got through all the pages I'd missed. I know my quote is from when you last replied to me all those pages back, but I still wanted to.
To continue with my 'employees on strike' analogy...Do picket signs in the real world ever say much more than 'This sucks!'? No, they say very general things, or use slogans to say something to prove a point, whatever that might be. The single choice of signature was a unifying face to it all for here on the forums.
People go on strike because they feel they have no other options left. They decide that if the more normal means won't work, they will stand outside, waving signs all day, and will stay that way until they can open a line of communication again.
They aren't going to expect to get everything they ask for should the company decide to talk, that's just unrealistic, but they know that changes will occur.
A similar thing has already happened here Taco. People went on 'strike' in a way by making these signatures. And now, in this thread, by your opening that 'line' in a matter of speaking, already a few people have chosen freely to get rid of those signatures, in essence, putting down their picket signs.
I dunno what might come of all this. Maybe we will be back to how things were in a week, who knows really. But just know that they did matter, those signatures, but also that you mattered, by choosing to talk to us.
NO ....as stated eariler i wasnt given a chance to discuss....just thread closed and banned ....where is the justice in that ? if somthing is broken wtf??? wtf??? FFS just freking fix it enough with the dam egos ...........uggggg wtf?
Beta, LTA, CE, Multiple preorder Versions, all Addon Packs except AoY, nearly all KDF/Rom and ~50% of all Fedships, over 25 LockboxShips, Endurer of Atari's "Year of Hell", but...
See, THOSE are what your signatures should be talking about. Not simply stating that you are displeased. Express WHAT you're displeased about, and maybe even how you think it could be addressed.
There have been hundreds of constructive posts. Pre-DR and Post-DR. They were not taken into account or not even seen. However the signatures seem to have generated enough noise for it to make it through the glass ceiling. As generalized they may be. And maybe they were not even that non-constructive after all. We've been noticed. At least I feel a little bit like that for the first time.
So what's the essence of this? Do we need to pack our feedback into signatures to have it noticed? Shall we start designing posters? Would you like us to send you paintings? Send you podcasts? You know, maybe we were just wrong all the time and writing wasn't the right medium. So please, what's the right way of communicating with you?*
*Please don't mention constructive and civil written feedback now. We've tried it. There's plenty of it. It didn't work. At least that's how I, and many others, feel.
i wouldn't say the forums are the gutter of sto, I would say the cryptic office where it is developed is..
listen, whilst there are a few trolls, and a few peeps complaining just to hear the sound of their own keyboard on the forums, a lot of the backlash is cryptics own doing.
if you go back in time to when the game was released, the forums were pretty positive save for a few rotten apples ( which every and any forum will have). but as they started turning what was a fun game into a monotized pay to keep up and win game, the forums grew darker.. and continue to do so.
I look at the sto forums as a tribute to how badly cryptic has messed the game up. kind of like the pve queue's.
for every action there is a reaction. and ever since the fourth year anniversary, cryptic as a whole seems to be a tank, just blasting through everything without thinking, or listening. I think its safe to say the community as a whole have said enough of the monotization, but they keep monotizing. im pretty sure the player base as a near whole has said bring the quality up and maybe spend less time nickel and diming us, but the quality continues to drop, but never fear, you can buy t6 ships a few months after they were released as t5u...
again, the current state of the forums are a direct correlation to the development, execution, and direction of the game.
Which is why everyone (both sides) should stop being insulting.
I removed my signature before I saw your post. The joke ran it's course.
I can't say everyone will be polite and all. Some people (from any side) just want to see the world burn, and will be aggressive to pretty much anyone.
I'm sorry to see a vast majority of the "angry" players are burning bridges when they see them. Like the official topic about dead queues, that turned into a rant and troll fest.
I want the game to improve, not to be mean toward some people.
See, THOSE are what your signatures should be talking about. Not simply stating that you are displeased. Express WHAT you're displeased about, and maybe even how you think it could be addressed.
We did lengthy topic about those problems. Or when we answered the "official" posts.
And yeah, as I said, we were told we were either wrong, or our opinion had no impact on the game. Or how the metrics were so much better than our opinion.
I'm going to work on a signature to show all the problem that have been mentioned by numerous (as in, a lot) of players since DR. But deep inside, I know it is useless.
There is something to remember. People on the forum might whine a lot. And are not always been courteous.
But they are the most passionate part of your customer base. Many of them are "whales", and the majority believe in the game. They are the Romulans of STO.
Even when we are not in our best behavior, always remember we are here because we care.
And please, everyone who's saying "nothing ever comes of feedback" just stop. Yes, it may not be as often as you like, but there are a thousand times that feedback from players, from the forums, has had a direct impact on something we did in the game.
What you need to understand is that we here on the forums are not the majority - we are a very loud but very small minority, compared to everyone who plays the game without ever posting or even reading. We have our say, with our words, and our money; they have their say, with just their money. Cryptic devs have their say. And at the end of the day, Perfect World has theirs, and their word is law. :rolleyes:
This doesn't mean you aren't being heard. It just means that sometimes, you're outvoted. At the risk of being too flippant, a quote from the old show M*A*S*H comes to mind:
"Is it true that God answers all prayers?"
"Yes. But sometimes the answer is 'no'."
I doubt you'll find more than 10 rude comments in there ... and probably only if you're really stretching, including stuff like "Imho Rewards are TRIBBLE" ... if this is a hate & troll fest, I'd like to know what Feedback is ...
Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
What about the many posts that aren't insulting at all? If someone posts something insulting, that person just gave you a reason to ignore his post. But what about the many detailed threads about what people feel is wrong about the direction that STO is heading?
Well, going by some people on the forums - once you have been insulted, or just feel insulted by someone, you can ignore that person, call him a liar and request for him to lose his job.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I doubt you'll find more than 10 rude comments in there ... and probably only if you're really stretching, including stuff like "Imho Rewards are TRIBBLE" ... if this is a hate & troll fest, I'd like to know what Feedback is ...
1word : moderation.
Seriously, I checked the thread when it was up, and there was a lot of troll going on. Including cheap joke that weren't remotely useful.
Wha? Where did I say we needed more feedback about DR? What I've been saying is that the signatures that are so prevalent right now are not providing anything useful. I'm not saying there aren't useful threads.
Well, to be fair, you dancing club is not providing anything usefull eighter, and still was implemented just in middle of the chaos of DR, just like a middle finger to a player base who was being surprissed for the actions of the Devs, and now you come to whining about signatures? really? have you thinked ever that if the work that cryptic does were of decent qualitty, the player base would not be using so many mocking sigs? you got what you deserve, you can whine or not... sigs are here till you nerfe it cause other way you cant deal with it.
Maybe you missed the part where several others have stated in this very thread that WE have mentioned the problems with the game and have been ignored .
and they read it ... what more do you want? lol
They dont have time to answer every post in every thread but they do read stuff. They also listen to more then just 3 people they listen to them all or try. Then they try to sort the angst from the actual you know issue and see if they can fix it or change it. They often do change things and then people usually refer to them as "nerfs" and most of those 'nerf' changes are a result of some feedback somewhere.
If what they read makes sense they might say to themselves "hey this is a good idea" and even do it.
I have made many suggestions or said many things and some of those things others have also spoken of and then one day something appears that you posted about or spoke about on the forums (or reddit or where ever.. i dont like reddit i find it worse then closed forums so i just read it and dont post but to each his own)
and their reward for fixing things is usually very little thanks and in this case someone taking a marketting statement and turning it into a meme and throwing it in their faces and in many cases in very very offensive ways to the point that it was moderated away and the person lost their signature privileges.
Well, to be fair, you dancing club is not providing anything usefull eighter, and still was implemented just in middle of the chaos of DR, just like a middle finger to a player base who was being surprised for the actions of the Devs, and now you come to whining about signatures? really? have you tought ever that if the work that cryptic does were of decent quality, the player base would not be using so many mocking sigs? you got what you deserve, you can whine or not... sigs are here till you nerfed it cause other way you cant deal with it.
Way to go, genius. Flaming the one Dev who comes here and posts regularly about things is a guaranteed way to make your point. Bravo. For forgetting that Tacofangs is one of the Good Guys around Cryptic.
Also for proving the OP's point in such a convincing manner.
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
Up to a point .
See I can praise myself from hell and back to being the most virtuous of all as I await the restoration (and or inclusion of) the old long Borg STF's , but guess what ... -- at some point it sank in that Cryptic not only won't do that , but they actively hate the very STF's that I cherish as the No.1 reason for me staying with this game .
This patience is a virtue ... , but it's not a replacement for virtue .... , or anything else .
In fact , if we take the Borg STF's as an example , my patience was awarded with further mutilation of said content in DR .
Surely you will be pointing to that as "patience paying off ..." .
It is counter productive and does little to contribute to the conversation.
You must point me toward the other side of that conversation sometime .
Because from where I'm standing , it sure looks like a monolog .
The only thing to celebrate is as Tacofangs put it, celebrating another bridge to burn.
See the above answer .
For a bridge to burn , a bridge has to exist first .
People want Cryptic to communicate with them, but then they create these disparaging signatures which foster hostility and resentment.
Well that's one way to blame the victim for his troubles .
And make no mistake -- as over the top melodramatic as it sounds -- DR victimized us .
It's funny how you were not ranting against the Foundry folks when they were all up in arms believing that the "Clicky missions" were victimizing them .
Nor against the PVP folks and their age old claims of neglect .
Or the Klingon fans and their "Disenchanted" slogan .
But repeated (and creative) commentary and protest against DR refuses to go away and suddenly it's the players who are standing in the way of a glorious new era of ... what exactly ?
I hope you don't have some champagne on ice for D'Angelo's 10th forum post .
If I truly believed they didn't listen to me or even acted on what I had to say from time to time, you would not see me on the forums at all. It simply would not be worth my time to communicate. It would be a waste of energy. It would be a waste of thoughtfulness that I can easily apply to other games I play.
That's an interesting way of looking at things .
I myself come to read and interact with other players .
If I get to interact with a Dev or have an impact on the game , those are bonuses , but not the reason I'm here .
But I haven't reached the same conclusion as you have. If I had, things would be different.
I'm not sure you know what conclusions have reached because I have yet to reach that many .
I do have some observations that I see affirmed from time to time (most of them not positive in nature) .
In regards to our point , I do not see us usher in a new era of Dev-player communication under our current management & parent company .
I also do not see Taco as the average communicative Dev .
I don't see him as a base line for other Devs nor as what other Devs could be if we only play nicer .
If anything , he is an anomaly -- and I'm neither saying that in a positive context or a negative one , except to say that if I look beyond the friendly attitude , my reaction to anomalies is a very human one .
I mistrust that which I do not understand .
And I don't pretend to understand Taco or his motivation .
I don't think of the other people in those kinds of terms. I don't see things in black-and-white like "good guys" and "bad guys". I believe people exist on a spectrum, so I tend not to give into the mental desire to fall into polarizing "us vs. them" mentality.
That sounds noble ... -- it's just not a nobility that I can give into following the nerf-nerf-nerf-nerf program that has touched nearly every part of this game in the last two years .
If it's not a "us vs. them" -- then from their POV it's "we've been far too generous" , with a side dish of "we don't like our old content" and "systems are the best !" .
Either way , that is not the road to fostering amicable relations with long time customers .
That isn't to say Tacofangs doesn't come across art-related issues at all in his line of work. Those ESD shuttle bay threads were interesting for a time.
Hmmm ... .
What I took away from those threads were his lack of understanding as to why ppl would want to go there .
I didn't understand him not understanding , nor am I sure he conveyed his lack of understanding in a ... understandable manner .
... is players jumping up and down stuff and trying to reach every hight , hole and point on a map a new and bewildering Dev experience ?
Well that's one way to blame the victim for his troubles .
And make no mistake -- as over the top melodramatic as it sounds -- DR victimized us .
Not only is it melodramatic, it's utter bullsh*t of extreme ignorance.
The game got a bunch of features and new missions in Delta Rising. And you call that victimizing the players?
Before Delta Rising, you could grind missions ten trilliion million times, you would still not get a single specialization point. You would never unlock a new mission. You could spend as much Dilithium as you wanted, you didn't get Mark XIV gear, a Tier 6 ship, new bridge officer abilities, or anything.
You're not a victim because a progress bar isn't moving fast enough for you. You may have a perfectly legitimate complaint, but you are not fracking victim.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Well, to be fair, you dancing club is not providing anything usefull eighter, and still was implemented just in middle of the chaos of DR, just like a middle finger to a player base who was being surprissed for the actions of the Devs, and now you come to whining about signatures? really? have you thinked ever that if the work that cryptic does were of decent qualitty, the player base would not be using so many mocking sigs? you got what you deserve, you can whine or not... sigs are here till you nerfe it cause other way you cant deal with it.
The timing problem is on Taco's management, not on him. They are the ones who made insensitive, tone-deaf use of his work. I think they could have considered how their timing was going to look, or considered pairing it with a major bug fix or quality of life improvement for the players, but that doesn't stop the club from being solid design work and it also doesn't magically make Taco into a coder.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Speaking of ESD...
Not sure when the revamp was released but when I saw it for the first time: WOW! Huge improvement, not just to the visuals but the whole open design. Bravo!
I've been playing for 5 years, and while everything is not perfect there have been many improvements made over that time.
Yes and/no they are the gutter. Do you think the likes of , gulberat and other posters who can piece together a semi literate critique of the game are the 'cream' or the 'dross'? No, scrub that, I would not even compare myself to gulberat, he is far more eloquent me, and could probably get this point across in far few words.
No the forums are not the gutter of STO. I would say they are the 'lifeblood' of STO - the 'ingame' community seems non existant, and the ONLY responses to complaints I see are to forum complaints (infrequent as they may be).
No, I do not think this forum should be seen as a 'gutter', the players are already trodden down enough as it is. Many posters here (such as gulberat, Nagus (wtf happend to Nagus???) give rise to great and important debate (game wise), which otherwise would not be addressed.
So no, the forums are not the gutter, although you may see the 'dross' (myself perhaps included).
Despite this, there are many (MANY) literate and relevant posts in the forums.
Not only is it melodramatic, it's utter bullsh*t of extreme ignorance.
The game got a bunch of features and new missions in Delta Rising. And you call that victimizing the players?
Before Delta Rising, you could grind missions ten trilliion million times, you would still not get a single specialization point.
You didn't need to grind missions ten trilliion million times period back then.
You would never unlock a new mission.
No we just got to play it when it was added without grinding patrols or anything else to do it.
You could spend as much Dilithium as you wanted, you didn't get Mark XIV gear,
You didn't need to have Mark XIV just to do something and mark XII gear didn't require jumping through 50 hoops just to get it and it wasn't behind the RNG nickel and dime mechanic.
a Tier 6 ship,
You could get by just with the free T5 one back then hell T6 is pretty much on par with a fleet ship.
new bridge officer abilities,
Getting by just fine without them, thank you very much.
or anything.
[/QUOTE]
All they did was add a bunch of RNG mechanics to sell more zen, slap a few measly story missions and patrols down, and called it an expansion.
Comments
The bottom line in terms of grind is that I did an analysis that indicates that in normal content, WoW values player time at 285% the rate of Delta Rising's post-November 20th content. This is a pretty sound ludic analysis.
In turn, WoW dungeon content values player time at another 400% that rate for an effective total of 1140% value they place on player time. (I rounded to 1200% in that post.)
My analysis is a pretty sound attempt at hedonic appraisal of time value, I think. I even deducted for the subscription fee there.
I fully accept that this is a free game. I don't think this should feel like a free game for subscribers, however, and have said several times that I think serious XP gains for going gold would make a huge difference.
I have also suggested a "lockbox buffet" package with or without gold subscription. In general, most F2P games (not just STO) seem to have had activity dips. WoW gained 3 million players over the same time period. STO outperformed games with a more intense F2P grind model on steam charts and was outperformed by some hybrid games on the same charts that are closer to sub.
DCUO offers buffet lockbox access to its subscribers and my estimates suggest that the number of buffet packages to equal the value of one lockbox ship is relatively low. However many ships you're issuing now, you would only need maybe 10 buffet packages for each before I'd estimate that you'd make better money off a lockbox buffet than keys. I think the promise of unlimited box opening would easily drive gold subs or a separate lockbox buffet service and would lower your risk while increasing retention by spreading revenues out across more players rather than concentrating your sales on a few players who you lose more from if they quit.
On the whole, I think more sales but lower average sales per user seems like a better longterm strategy along with really focusing on converting free players into direct spenders rather than relying so heavily on indirect monetization and big spenders. I think that was probably a great approach for PWE in 2009-10 but that rising Chinese economic prosperity and American economic recovery (particularly for what I assume are prime demos like college educated millennials) are -- I THINK -- going to yield a resurgence of the sub game and make hybrid that takes it hybridization seriously with REAL buffet incentives and a focus on conversion into direct spending a better strategy than F2P.
Also, I understand people may take issue with parts of this.
Really, I think the XP values are especially out of whack for a western hybrid or sub game and are likely to turn off $15 a month spenders and lifers.
Taco I would normally agree with you if not for what happened to me last week when I tried to have a civil discussion and point out a certain flaw in the game that is actually a game stopper for PVPer this is the article I'm talking about http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=21589451#post21589451 I was straight to the point I flamed no one... Because I actually did not think that the ideas that were conveyed in another post were being relayed correctly hence this would appear if you read the post you will see there are valid points here there's nothing wrong with what I wrote if you go by the adage that the developers say that they don't want anything in the game that one shot kill someone or perma disables them then how is this not a bug?? Do you know what I got I got a ban and I got my thread closed so you tell me how I'm supposed to feel about that? Remember the point here is you and developers have said you don't want something that gives a one shot kill or perma disables something we have given you proof we've given you numbers and what we get working as intended close the thread and ban.......... really??? OH and its still BROKEN
Seriously consider:
- 300% skill/spec points in normal content and 1200% skill/spec points in advanced/elite queues for gold players, AT LEAST for the first level earned each week. The buff can expire on level up and can be reapplied at the start of the new week if need be.
Possibly consider:
- Offering other grind and cooldown reductions to gold, possibly including reductions in upgrade/crafting timegate skip fees if not eliminating some outright. Possibly including bonus duty officer commendation points.
- Retiring the lifetime offer.
- Making lockboxes autodestruct after 30 days in inventory.
- Allowing gold or some similar buffet service on lockboxes as a direct payment (not for ZEN) option to drive direct purchases.
- Set the buffet right and this defrays your risk, creating less big spender reliance.
Uhmmm...Taco...he basically listed off everything that changed in Delta Rising.
So, wouldn't that pretty much mean the signatures are right on target?
Just sayin'.
"You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack.
I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
First...phew, finally got through all the pages I'd missed. I know my quote is from when you last replied to me all those pages back, but I still wanted to.
To continue with my 'employees on strike' analogy...Do picket signs in the real world ever say much more than 'This sucks!'? No, they say very general things, or use slogans to say something to prove a point, whatever that might be. The single choice of signature was a unifying face to it all for here on the forums.
People go on strike because they feel they have no other options left. They decide that if the more normal means won't work, they will stand outside, waving signs all day, and will stay that way until they can open a line of communication again.
They aren't going to expect to get everything they ask for should the company decide to talk, that's just unrealistic, but they know that changes will occur.
A similar thing has already happened here Taco. People went on 'strike' in a way by making these signatures. And now, in this thread, by your opening that 'line' in a matter of speaking, already a few people have chosen freely to get rid of those signatures, in essence, putting down their picket signs.
I dunno what might come of all this. Maybe we will be back to how things were in a week, who knows really. But just know that they did matter, those signatures, but also that you mattered, by choosing to talk to us.
I don't understand them as a joke. In my opinion, the signature campaign is a very creative and mannered way of expressing the proportions of satisfaction. Like a poll, we never got offered. Suddenly it became visually obvious, that it is not such a small minority.
And if this does not help ... well, then I think, nothing helps and the situation is much worse than assumed.
Sure, there are other ways to get some attention an reactions.
Like perhaps writing user-reviews on other platforms.
Holy Grail of Gamification is Addiction | 5 Ways to Accomplisch | and the Psychology of Freemium
Sometimes, in order to get what you really want, you have to let stuff like that go. Even if you are right (I mean, we always think that we are, but let's say that you really really are). As long as you are stuck on that point, things are never going to move past it. We're going to stay here, in the middle of the road, fighting about that one thing.
So you need to decide, all of you, what's more important to you: being right, getting that apology that you deserve... or getting anything else that you want and are asking for.
NO ....as stated eariler i wasnt given a chance to discuss....just thread closed and banned ....where is the justice in that ? if somthing is broken wtf??? wtf??? FFS just freking fix it enough with the dam egos ...........uggggg wtf?
Forum in the crapper
That's a cool one.
There have been hundreds of constructive posts. Pre-DR and Post-DR. They were not taken into account or not even seen. However the signatures seem to have generated enough noise for it to make it through the glass ceiling. As generalized they may be. And maybe they were not even that non-constructive after all. We've been noticed. At least I feel a little bit like that for the first time.
So what's the essence of this? Do we need to pack our feedback into signatures to have it noticed? Shall we start designing posters? Would you like us to send you paintings? Send you podcasts? You know, maybe we were just wrong all the time and writing wasn't the right medium. So please, what's the right way of communicating with you?*
*Please don't mention constructive and civil written feedback now. We've tried it. There's plenty of it. It didn't work. At least that's how I, and many others, feel.
listen, whilst there are a few trolls, and a few peeps complaining just to hear the sound of their own keyboard on the forums, a lot of the backlash is cryptics own doing.
if you go back in time to when the game was released, the forums were pretty positive save for a few rotten apples ( which every and any forum will have). but as they started turning what was a fun game into a monotized pay to keep up and win game, the forums grew darker.. and continue to do so.
I look at the sto forums as a tribute to how badly cryptic has messed the game up. kind of like the pve queue's.
for every action there is a reaction. and ever since the fourth year anniversary, cryptic as a whole seems to be a tank, just blasting through everything without thinking, or listening. I think its safe to say the community as a whole have said enough of the monotization, but they keep monotizing. im pretty sure the player base as a near whole has said bring the quality up and maybe spend less time nickel and diming us, but the quality continues to drop, but never fear, you can buy t6 ships a few months after they were released as t5u...
again, the current state of the forums are a direct correlation to the development, execution, and direction of the game.
I can't say everyone will be polite and all. Some people (from any side) just want to see the world burn, and will be aggressive to pretty much anyone.
I'm sorry to see a vast majority of the "angry" players are burning bridges when they see them. Like the official topic about dead queues, that turned into a rant and troll fest.
I want the game to improve, not to be mean toward some people.
We did lengthy topic about those problems. Or when we answered the "official" posts.
And yeah, as I said, we were told we were either wrong, or our opinion had no impact on the game. Or how the metrics were so much better than our opinion.
I'm going to work on a signature to show all the problem that have been mentioned by numerous (as in, a lot) of players since DR. But deep inside, I know it is useless.
There is something to remember. People on the forum might whine a lot. And are not always been courteous.
But they are the most passionate part of your customer base. Many of them are "whales", and the majority believe in the game. They are the Romulans of STO.
Even when we are not in our best behavior, always remember we are here because we care.
Tacofangs claims they were:
What you need to understand is that we here on the forums are not the majority - we are a very loud but very small minority, compared to everyone who plays the game without ever posting or even reading. We have our say, with our words, and our money; they have their say, with just their money. Cryptic devs have their say. And at the end of the day, Perfect World has theirs, and their word is law. :rolleyes:
This doesn't mean you aren't being heard. It just means that sometimes, you're outvoted. At the risk of being too flippant, a quote from the old show M*A*S*H comes to mind:
"Is it true that God answers all prayers?"
"Yes. But sometimes the answer is 'no'."
It did ? Are we talking about this :
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1330751
I doubt you'll find more than 10 rude comments in there ... and probably only if you're really stretching, including stuff like "Imho Rewards are TRIBBLE" ... if this is a hate & troll fest, I'd like to know what Feedback is ...
Seriously, I checked the thread when it was up, and there was a lot of troll going on. Including cheap joke that weren't remotely useful.
Must have missed all of that, then ... I was under the Impression offending Posts only get edited, not outright deleted ...
Well, to be fair, you dancing club is not providing anything usefull eighter, and still was implemented just in middle of the chaos of DR, just like a middle finger to a player base who was being surprissed for the actions of the Devs, and now you come to whining about signatures? really? have you thinked ever that if the work that cryptic does were of decent qualitty, the player base would not be using so many mocking sigs? you got what you deserve, you can whine or not... sigs are here till you nerfe it cause other way you cant deal with it.
Still with signature
time to nerf url links?
GG Cryptic.
dnirg eht nioj
and they read it ... what more do you want? lol
They dont have time to answer every post in every thread but they do read stuff. They also listen to more then just 3 people they listen to them all or try. Then they try to sort the angst from the actual you know issue and see if they can fix it or change it. They often do change things and then people usually refer to them as "nerfs" and most of those 'nerf' changes are a result of some feedback somewhere.
If what they read makes sense they might say to themselves "hey this is a good idea" and even do it.
I have made many suggestions or said many things and some of those things others have also spoken of and then one day something appears that you posted about or spoke about on the forums (or reddit or where ever.. i dont like reddit i find it worse then closed forums so i just read it and dont post but to each his own)
and their reward for fixing things is usually very little thanks and in this case someone taking a marketting statement and turning it into a meme and throwing it in their faces and in many cases in very very offensive ways to the point that it was moderated away and the person lost their signature privileges.
Way to go, genius. Flaming the one Dev who comes here and posts regularly about things is a guaranteed way to make your point. Bravo. For forgetting that Tacofangs is one of the Good Guys around Cryptic.
Also for proving the OP's point in such a convincing manner.
Up to a point .
See I can praise myself from hell and back to being the most virtuous of all as I await the restoration (and or inclusion of) the old long Borg STF's , but guess what ... -- at some point it sank in that Cryptic not only won't do that , but they actively hate the very STF's that I cherish as the No.1 reason for me staying with this game .
This patience is a virtue ... , but it's not a replacement for virtue .... , or anything else .
In fact , if we take the Borg STF's as an example , my patience was awarded with further mutilation of said content in DR .
Surely you will be pointing to that as "patience paying off ..." .
You must point me toward the other side of that conversation sometime .
Because from where I'm standing , it sure looks like a monolog .
See the above answer .
For a bridge to burn , a bridge has to exist first .
Well that's one way to blame the victim for his troubles .
And make no mistake -- as over the top melodramatic as it sounds -- DR victimized us .
It's funny how you were not ranting against the Foundry folks when they were all up in arms believing that the "Clicky missions" were victimizing them .
Nor against the PVP folks and their age old claims of neglect .
Or the Klingon fans and their "Disenchanted" slogan .
But repeated (and creative) commentary and protest against DR refuses to go away and suddenly it's the players who are standing in the way of a glorious new era of ... what exactly ?
I hope you don't have some champagne on ice for D'Angelo's 10th forum post .
That's an interesting way of looking at things .
I myself come to read and interact with other players .
If I get to interact with a Dev or have an impact on the game , those are bonuses , but not the reason I'm here .
I'm not sure you know what conclusions have reached because I have yet to reach that many .
I do have some observations that I see affirmed from time to time (most of them not positive in nature) .
In regards to our point , I do not see us usher in a new era of Dev-player communication under our current management & parent company .
I also do not see Taco as the average communicative Dev .
I don't see him as a base line for other Devs nor as what other Devs could be if we only play nicer .
If anything , he is an anomaly -- and I'm neither saying that in a positive context or a negative one , except to say that if I look beyond the friendly attitude , my reaction to anomalies is a very human one .
I mistrust that which I do not understand .
And I don't pretend to understand Taco or his motivation .
That sounds noble ... -- it's just not a nobility that I can give into following the nerf-nerf-nerf-nerf program that has touched nearly every part of this game in the last two years .
If it's not a "us vs. them" -- then from their POV it's "we've been far too generous" , with a side dish of "we don't like our old content" and "systems are the best !" .
Either way , that is not the road to fostering amicable relations with long time customers .
Hmmm ... .
What I took away from those threads were his lack of understanding as to why ppl would want to go there .
I didn't understand him not understanding , nor am I sure he conveyed his lack of understanding in a ... understandable manner .
... is players jumping up and down stuff and trying to reach every hight , hole and point on a map a new and bewildering Dev experience ?
The game got a bunch of features and new missions in Delta Rising. And you call that victimizing the players?
Before Delta Rising, you could grind missions ten trilliion million times, you would still not get a single specialization point. You would never unlock a new mission. You could spend as much Dilithium as you wanted, you didn't get Mark XIV gear, a Tier 6 ship, new bridge officer abilities, or anything.
You're not a victim because a progress bar isn't moving fast enough for you. You may have a perfectly legitimate complaint, but you are not fracking victim.
The timing problem is on Taco's management, not on him. They are the ones who made insensitive, tone-deaf use of his work. I think they could have considered how their timing was going to look, or considered pairing it with a major bug fix or quality of life improvement for the players, but that doesn't stop the club from being solid design work and it also doesn't magically make Taco into a coder.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Not sure when the revamp was released but when I saw it for the first time: WOW! Huge improvement, not just to the visuals but the whole open design. Bravo!
I've been playing for 5 years, and while everything is not perfect there have been many improvements made over that time.
No the forums are not the gutter of STO. I would say they are the 'lifeblood' of STO - the 'ingame' community seems non existant, and the ONLY responses to complaints I see are to forum complaints (infrequent as they may be).
No, I do not think this forum should be seen as a 'gutter', the players are already trodden down enough as it is. Many posters here (such as gulberat, Nagus (wtf happend to Nagus???) give rise to great and important debate (game wise), which otherwise would not be addressed.
So no, the forums are not the gutter, although you may see the 'dross' (myself perhaps included).
Despite this, there are many (MANY) literate and relevant posts in the forums.
You didn't need to grind missions ten trilliion million times period back then.
No we just got to play it when it was added without grinding patrols or anything else to do it.
You didn't need to have Mark XIV just to do something and mark XII gear didn't require jumping through 50 hoops just to get it and it wasn't behind the RNG nickel and dime mechanic.
You could get by just with the free T5 one back then hell T6 is pretty much on par with a fleet ship.
Getting by just fine without them, thank you very much.
[/QUOTE]
All they did was add a bunch of RNG mechanics to sell more zen, slap a few measly story missions and patrols down, and called it an expansion.