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The forums: The gutter of STO?

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  • gulberatgulberat Member Posts: 5,505 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    tacofangs wrote: »
    Not sure if you realize it or not, but I left my job at Borders to work for Cryptic. . . :P

    Poor thing!!!! The way they treated the employees as they got closer to the end was disgraceful and even I as a customer could see that.

    Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
    Proudly F2P.  Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
  • wilai29#4617 wilai29 Member Posts: 95 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    @tacofangs

    I know the sigs and comments aren't nice, but I know these things happen when people feel ignored.
    Usually this will get worse and worse because there is lack of communication between 2 parties.
    Unless there will be more communication between plays and cryptic there will be no improvement.
    It also doesn't help that cryptic is property of PWE, which in turn is notoriously known for their poor customer service and gamble like packs/boxes. But besides that, STO can improve a lot by just fixing the current and old bugs/problems.

    I know a lot of people wouldn't even mind if we had a complete season dedicated to improving existing problems in the game , there doesn't need to be new content for a season if the game is smooth and without problems . At least for a while.

    I work in a restaurant, managing it after being a head chef for 10 years and I can tell that communication is key. Very quick I realized that a happy customer is a paying customer.
    Btw I love STO but the current problems are disappointing
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,919 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Thanks Taco for posting and explaining your side and your perspective.

    There will always be people that don't want to listen or that won't change, but if it's any consolation at all you gave a few of us something to think about.

    Overall, I can't blame the Cryptic Team for not wanting to visit these forums. If I worked at Cryptic I would say as far away from this board as humanly possible.
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • qjuniorqjunior Member Posts: 2,023 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    I like my signature, even though I wanted a bigger one. To me it's not meant in an aggressive way, but it highlights the DR aftermath very well. Cryptic says everything is wonderful while the mob is marching on the castle.

    The truth as always is somewhere in-between, not everything about DR is terrible but some things seem heavy handed. I feel that Cryptic as a developer often goes from one extreme to another, balance is the key, be it with gameplay, difficulty or monetization.
  • hartzillahartzilla Member Posts: 1,177 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    iconians wrote: »
    I still find PUGs in certain queues.

    Whereas from what I've seen its largely a tiny fraction of them, whereas 3 months ago the majority of them were active.
    Yes, some queues are dead and I've offered constructive feedback on how to alter that. But I can't win them all.

    Unless it boils down to hardcore players accepting that this isn't a freaking Olympic sport and that casuals will never care about DPS numbers I don't think it will work.
    So you can buy things off of people who do bother with the system via the exchange.

    Yay shopping in the over priced EC store :rolleyes:

    Or I could buy better gear from the rep stores or the fleet store and know just what I'm actually buying

    And pretty much conceding its a waste of time (yeah saying then don't bother pretty much means wast-o-time).
    That's not mentioning I've been able to participate in the crafting system without lockbox-related items involved.

    In fact I recently sold a doff I got from "Request R&D Assistance" for around 12 million EC.

    Why odes everyone assume everyone is EC rich, good luck doing that these days.

    And again another person who assumes their luck with the RNG is some kind of a skill.
    So, clearly I'm benefitting from the crafting system even if I'm not directly involved in some capacities.

    Whereas I would actually like to use the system and not live off of people with more EC than sense.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,919 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    qjunior wrote: »
    I like my signature, even though I wanted a bigger one. To me it's not meant in an aggressive way, but it highlights the DR aftermath very well. Cryptic says everything is wonderful while the mob is marching on the castle.

    The truth as always is somewhere in-between, not everything about DR is terrible but some things seem heavy handed. I feel that Cryptic as a developer often goes from one extreme to another, balance is the key, be it with gameplay, difficulty or monetization.

    So, when someone from Cryptic sees your signature, do you feel it tells them what you do and don't like about DR?

    What Taco is saying is your signature doesn't do anything to tell anyone what you do or don't like it just shows general displeasure. It's impossible to address the problems of someone that won't tell you what is wrong.

    I did it myself, I had these sig banners for a long time, but in the end, Taco is right it's not helping anyone. It's just rubbing salt in an already festering wound.
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • thutmosis85thutmosis85 Member Posts: 2,358 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    iconians wrote: »
    No. Al Rivera possibly made a gaffe or a poor choice of words, and the players are railroading the entirety of Cryptic over it via signatures with that soundbite.

    No ??? I dunno, if someone in charge is making fun of Forum - Feedback, saying stuff like waiting for how many times "Hitler" shows up, it certainly feels like "The Dozens" :P
    iconians wrote: »
    Backfiring implies some kind of target was aimed at before firing. The Delta Rising signatures aren't firing specifically at any target. It's just hate for hate's sake.

    Imho it's kind of obvious it's firing at the one person who said it ... even Taco (kind of) acknowleded it :
    tacofangs wrote: »
    If that individual is someone I work with, someone I see on a daily basis, it's hard to not feel the hits, even when they aren't aimed directly at me.
    ___________________
    So, when someone from Cryptic sees your signature, do you feel it tells them what you do and don't like about DR?

    No ? Because your signature is not supposed to do that anyway ?
    Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
  • ccarmichael07ccarmichael07 Member Posts: 755 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    iconians wrote: »
    He's made it obvious on several occasions he's not obligated to post to the forums, and neither is any other developer. Trevor and Morrigan are the only ones who actually get paid to wade into this cesspool.



    If they don't accomplish anything productive, and only accomplish something destructive, is it worth staying the course?

    Or are you one of the people who think any sort of attention is good attention? No such thing as bad publicity? Because when it comes to Cryptic employees communicating more with us, I think taking steps to let that happen more often should outweigh any axe we have to grind with our own individual opinions regarding Delta Rising.



    And this has proven to be demonstratably false time and time again. Some people feel their feedback should be acted upon 100% of the time, and because it isn't, it gives them free reign to be disparaging and insulting to the point it hinders a good working relationship with Cryptic.

    This is a movie, not advice on how to improve communication to Cryptic regarding STO.



    Be more creative with your sigs instead of jumping on the hate bandwagon. If you want constructive signatures? The Galaxy Revamp signatures were way more helpful since it made Cryptic aware there are still players who are dissatisfied with the state the ship is in.

    Use signatures that show your individual problems with the game and how better to solve them. If you don't like the Galaxy, add in the bridge officer slotting and console slotting on the signature.. just as an example. That actually is helpful.



    I see nothing wrong with this.



    Or reading the threads, taking the feedback into account, and acting on what they feel is best. Maybe your feedback gets acted on, maybe it doesn't. We're giving feedback, not giving marching orders. We give suggestions, not demands.

    Nobody should ever expect their feedback to be acted on, but when it is, it's important to recognize that it is and be thankful and supportive of that.



    Don't pretend it didn't happen. But acknowledge it happened, learn from errors made (on both Cryptic and the forum warriors' sides), and make future decisions with mistakes learned in mind.

    Yeah, after 5 years, I'm afraid my ability to give Cryptic the benefit of the doubt has all but dried up.

    If they want to reverse course, start interacting with the players, take suggestions, requests and feedback seriously and make changes to improve the quality of the game, as well as the morale of the players, then the sigs will come down. It's a rather natural process really.

    But since I haven't seen any indication of that, nor do I expect it given Cryptic's track record since Closed Beta...well whatever will be, will be.

    Cryptic has a real credibility problem and it seems to be coming to a head. They simply don't know how to interact with the players anymore, and could stand a few lessons.

    The other forum I am following today is DCUO. They announced the next DLC, and in the forums the front page is lit up with Dev tags. It's all hands on deck, and the nice thing about it? They aren't afraid of giving bad news either. One thread in particular was about Bracer styles, and the art Dev came right in, gave the bad news, explained the situation.

    When was the last time anyone from Cryptic ever did that? When was the last time they weren't afraid to be straight forward with the players, tell it like it is, explain their position, and stand by it with conviction?

    That's true, honest, adult interaction with a playerbase. Something Cryptic is certainly lacking.


    "You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack.
    I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
  • raventomoeraventomoe Member Posts: 723 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    People...can we please stop tearing into each other about this? Everything we are saying is as much a result of us as anything a Dev said/didn't say.

    This whole environment is a two-way street in it's formation.

    I say it's time to bury the axes being ground, the pitchforks back in the haylofts, douse the numerous torches, and the phasers back in the armory. We all have gripes, not neccesarilly the same ones but we all have things in mind that might improve the game even if it is not implementable due to policies/contracts or game engine limits...

    I had to go for the last nearly 9 months because of health issues and moving to a new place and hardware limitations. I'm back and able to play again thanks to family.

    I also changed my sig but would LOVE banner for it instead with a logo.
    "The Multiverse, the ultimate frontier..."
    Thus begins...Lyrical Trek
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    the cost to go from mk12 season 9 gear to mk 14 is astronomical, and the improvement over mk12 is astronomical too. by comparison, playing DR with mk 12 gear would be like playing season 9 with mk 4-6 gear. the difficulty changes were balanced for a fully upgraded and specialized character, so someone with a done season 9 character will find 0 approachability to DR.
    Except its really not. I have all mk12 gear and I think the game is still mostly on the easy side. And yes, I pug Advanced/Elite.

    If mk14's really make that much of a difference, that just means the difficulty is still balanced the same way it used to be balanced. That is, maxing everything out makes the game so easy it's boring. In that case, I'm never upgrading anything.
  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    hartzilla wrote: »
    Unless it boils down to hardcore players accepting that this isn't a freaking Olympic sport and that casuals will never care about DPS numbers I don't think it will work.

    The queues have more issues than just that, Cryptic is aware of all if not most of them. Hopefully they will address it.
    Yay shopping in the over priced EC store :rolleyes:

    Players set the prices, not Cryptic. Things are only worth as much as people are willing to pay for them. This is a fairer system than an actual EC vendor.
    Or I could buy better gear from the rep stores or the fleet store and know just what I'm actually buying

    Nothing is stopping you from doing that. The system you are referring to is optional.
    And pretty much conceding its a waste of time (yeah saying then don't bother pretty much means wast-o-time).

    It's not a waste of time to those who benefit off of taking the time to use it. The less people who participate, the more valuable the gear from the players who do participate will become, thus leading to higher prices.
    Why odes everyone assume everyone is EC rich, good luck doing that these days.

    Being EC rich is easy if you put the time and effort into it. But no, there are no free rides when it comes to a player-based economy. You have to pitch in to reap the benefits.
    And again another person who assumes their luck with the RNG is some kind of a skill.

    No, but your original point is that R&D doffs are lockbox only. The R&D system requires no Zen or Lockbox keys to participate and being able to pick the fruits of your labors. If you do not like the R&D system, that's fine. I don't like some of the mechanics in it, either. But it is a marked improvement over what we did have.

    And we asked for a marked improvement.

    Just because it didn't resemble 100% of what we hoped doesn't mean that it isn't an improvement.
    Whereas I would actually like to use the system and not live off of people with more EC than sense.

    Then you can. Nothing is stopping you from doing the 20 hour research missions and getting high enough in a school to make something useful for yourself. It just takes time and effort. You mentioned the rep stores, R&D is just like that. You have to actually participate to get use out of it.

    I actually like the traits you get from hitting rank 15 in a school, but I enjoy making upgrade kits for myself and friends as well.
    ExtxpTp.jpg
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,919 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    No ? Because your signature is not supposed to do that anyway ?

    Then what purpose does it serve in your opinion?

    I'm not trying to call you out, I'm genuinely curious and trying to understand your side.
    raventomoe wrote: »
    People...can we please stop tearing into each other about this? Everything we are saying is as much a result of us as anything a Dev said/didn't say.

    This whole environment is a two-way street in it's formation.

    I say it's time to bury the axes being ground, the pitchforks back in the haylofts, douse the numerous torches, and the phasers back in the armory. We all have gripes, not neccesarilly the same ones but we all have things in mind that might improve the game even if it is not implementable due to policies/contracts or game engine limits...

    I had to go for the last nearly 9 months because of health issues and moving to a new place and hardware limitations. I'm back and able to play again thanks to family.

    I also changed my sig but would LOVE banner for it instead with a logo.

    I totally agree, it's about time to just let it go.

    On another note, hope your health is better and glad you got things sorted out. Welcome back!
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • erei1erei1 Member Posts: 4,081 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    tacofangs wrote: »
    I'm saying that, despite how effective you think those other methods are/are not, this method is only serving to burn yet another bridge.
    People often tout me as being "the only" one to communicate. The only one to wade into the maelstrom. I don't believe that to be the case, but IF that's the true, and IF the signatures are your "last option" and IF they are driving away your last hope. . . they aren't working either.



    :::thud:::thud:::thud:::
    "Hey Joe, why are you beating your face against the wall?"
    "Well, the sledgehammer wasn't working."
    I understand the whole signature is not helping. That's why I removed mine, it was fun, but like any jokes, it's better when it's short.
    Anyway, the main problem is we tried to be constructive. Not everyone mind you, many people just want to see the world burn.
    I clearly remember those dozen of pages long topic about the DR problems : the grind, the patrol disguised as "story", the lack of xp to reach 60, the lack of xp from endgame content for spec tree, the randomness of the ugrade/craft system,... Not everyone agree on everything, but those are many of the problems this community have.

    We made topics and posts, some people made numbers, statistic with dozen, hundreds of player's data. On Reddit, tribble and holodeck forum. Even before DR was on holodeck.

    What was the official answer ? Well, several PR post saying the game is awesome (IE we are a bunch of whiner not representative of the game state), Geko telling people their numbers was wrong, and how they failed (while it was proven later they were, in fact, right). And I can't remember if it was Geko or Smirk, but one of them said they didn't listen to our advice and opinion, since we were a minority. Also, I quite remember one of them saying we were "ungrateful whiners". I think it was Geko.

    It's hard to stay constructive when you are insulted in return. I mean, not by you, or many people from Cryptic, but a part of it. Unfortunately, they are the one pulling the strings or officially talking to us.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • vesterengvestereng Member Posts: 2,252 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    tacofangs wrote: »
    That was not me saying "we need better feedback."
    That was me saying "creating (or helping to create) a hostile environment through the use of a passive aggressive meme, RATHER THAN constructive feedback, is not helpful.


    And please, everyone who's saying "nothing ever comes of feedback" just stop. Yes, it may not be as often as you like, but there are a thousand times that feedback from players, from the forums, has had a direct impact on something we did in the game.




    This is patently false. My line about being able to develop the game without visiting the forums is not saying I don't care what you have to say. It's saying that my interaction with you here is entirely voluntary on my part. If I feel like I'm taking hits below the belt, or getting too much flak, I can just leave. Your feedback is important, and we DO care what you think.

    Beta, you say there wouldn't be as many problems if we "just listened" to you. If you say Apple, and someone else says Broccoli, what's the right answer? We can't do both, we have to pick one. No matter which we pick, we will be told that we didn't listen* to the other side.

    *Note: Listening does not equal action. We listened to both sides, and we picked a direction. Apple won. That doesn't mean Broccoli was ignored.

    Also note that, as I've mentioned before (and started a fire over), STO is a product. We make a product. You are the consumers. You can choose to consume said product, or not consume said product. You can offer feedback about said product, and we may or may not choose to utilize your feedback. You are not the only thing that decides how/what our product is.*

    [/COLOR]

    I think probably you mean well, and I think you are honest, in so far as the meme bothers you and it bothers your co-workers.

    The rest seems to come off as somewhat post-rationalization of stuff you have no say in.


    For example, you just said you haven't gotten any feedback about DR, that you have no idea what people are talking about? But then RIGHT after you say you don't need better feedback? Which one is it, do you even know?

    Another example is when you say "we can develop without the forums".
    When your testers have said on record that "without the forums we cannot do our jobs", in where they get more or less ALL their data, from players, from the forums.

    Remember when you said t6 is what the players asked for?
    When you damn well know people asked for better content - not just notepad editing of NPC health?
    A debate you directly responded to, saying well AI is too resource demanding, but oh well that didn't stop you from claiming we asked for t6 anyway did it?

    That is strictly PR to sell the dil weapon text upgrading system, nothing more so don't even try

    Then your pitch about apples and Broccoli, where you expect us to believe, the developers actually create updates based on what people asked for, all the while you "don't include the forums or players in general"....

    It's only a matter of who developers listen to?


    Nerfed doff upgrinder

    Nerfed all drops and nerfed STF (broke the top outfits for 18 months)

    Tour the galaxy nerfed

    Vendor trash nerfed (my personal favorite)

    Stolen reputation passives (claimed power creep then released new passives to grind for under specialization)

    Deleted exploration

    Killed console fabrication

    DR, nerfed dil

    DR, nerfed EC

    DR, nerfed marks

    DR, nerfed exp

    DR, grinding on an astronomical scale

    DR, millions of dil entry fee for text upgrades with no content

    (just off the top of my head)


    I rank DR as insanity on top of a super nerfed game. The history of the past 2 years have been to kill, nerf, reduce and remove.

    What we then said was, how about instead of nerfing vendor trash, the most pitiful thing I ever saw thank you, how about getting to work on adding content to the game?

    PVP, exploration or whatever else, that actually has been requested.

    Meaningful gameplay for all roles?

    It's pretty bold to sit there and say people asked for the same things they are upset about.

    You see anyone here asking to grind 800 patrol mission for specialization oh please can you make it 1200?

    Or yeah man, I just feel I max out my EC so fast you simply have to take time out and nerf vendor trash before the whole server goes under!!!11

    No you don't. It's a fantasy world you live in, where you tell yourself, "it's impossible to please everyone..."

    "... so I don't have to care about anyone".

    But I don't take that personally at all, I imagine that is a needed defense mechanism so you can live with yourself.


    I think the general consensus is, you have to earn money first but then it's assumed that you at least try to create good gameplay after that with the money given.

    "We've doubled our staff"... you know what I am saying

    Especially when your team comes out and claims respect for star trek etc. there is an implied responsibility, that you are neglecting when you just go for text upgrades milking whales, crafting, upgrading, DR, boff training revamp and I am guessing everything else in 2015?


    Content killing and top dil billing
  • thutmosis85thutmosis85 Member Posts: 2,358 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Then what purpose does it serve in your opinion?

    I'm not trying to call you out, I'm genuinely curious and trying to understand your side.

    Showing general discontent (+ maybe some smart people asking why & reading their Feedback, instead of just being insulted) ... that's how Sarcasm was intended since the ancient Greeks ...
    Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
  • mirrorterranmirrorterran Member Posts: 423 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    tacofangs wrote: »
    I think it's the medium that is betraying your intent. By making a sig, which is simply omnipresent in all of your posts, and lacking a direction at any given individual, the message comes across as being directed at everyone.

    The sigs are a shotgun, not a scalpel.

    The point being, it doesn't matter if you intend for it to be directed at a single individual. If that individual is someone I work with, someone I see on a daily basis, it's hard to not feel the hits, even when they aren't aimed directly at me.

    Admittedly, I don't know what the scalpel would be in this case. I just don't feel that the sigs are accomplishing what you might have intended.




    Sure, I get that, and I don't disagree. However, the signatures are the equivalent of standing outside of the Cryptic office holding signs that say "This sucks!"

    . . . uh. . . ok. . . WHAT sucks? Without expounding on the issue you are protesting, it comes across as protesting the everything.





    Precisely.




    I have, but your signature isn't simply stating what's wrong, it's implying that the devs are slave masters, and forcing you to do things. Your signature is imbued with emotion. It's dripping with hate, which makes it very easy to dismiss. Yes, it's clear you don't like the grind, nor the metrics, but that is hardly constructive.




    Precisely.




    I can develop the game just fine without visiting the forums.




    Sure, but if that's the case, didn't you just admit that the sig pic was essentially just noise? The sig did nothing to raise the issues you talk about in your posts, and does nothing to attract positive attention to said posts. . . so. . . how is that sig helping get your point across again?




    Funny, cuz that's essentially what BetaBorg just told me . . .

    I guess this is the part where we say "whooptie ****in doo...a dev replied to your posts"

    If you want to know why we are "picketing" it's because no one replies to our complaints...and guess what...that was the only thing that was the replied to. The original complaint that you are replying to...was NOT answered.

    As far as how you can develop the game without us...go ahead and see how that works out for you.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,919 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Showing general discontent (+ maybe some smart people asking why, instead if being insulted) ... that's how Sarcasm was intended since the ancient Greeks ...

    So you're showing general discontent to other posters? Because it's already been said that the Dev Team isn't taking any real feedback from it.

    You're conveying discontent to other players, people that can't address your issue. The only people that can do anything about your discontent aren't here because of things like this. You're succeeding at showing your discontent, what you're not doing is making any progress toward fixing it.

    Now if you're happy just showing your discontent and you're cool with it never changing then by all means. I had a Sig Banner as well for a long time, but honestly.. we have made our point. Now it just comes across as hateful. Not saying you're hateful, you're obviously not.. you took the time to reply and are obviously a civil and intelligent person. I'm just talking about how it comes across.

    When is enough enough? Haven't we driven the point home yet? Maybe it's time to move on?
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • aelfwin1aelfwin1 Member Posts: 2,896 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    iconians wrote: »
    But to say these signatures are simply made 'in good fun' is really just like "The Dozens". It's fun to the people who play it with one another, until one of them gets served... but if only one participant of "The Dozens" is playing, and the other is not... what does that make it?

    Oh, yes. That makes it a disparaging insult.

    Well as one who didn't get caught up in the DR Sig trend, I think we the players should apologize .

    For not having Tovan Khev to blame all our woes on this time .
    For getting stuck around level 53 and 56 in DR and having to go off to grind .
    For getting exited for an expansion that had 1/5th of the previous mission content of the previous expansion .
    For getting accused of cheating when we employed a 5 year old in game mechanic .
    For getting XP nerfed across the game to herd us like cattle to Argala .
    For thinking that the old Elite STF'S would be like the new Advanced ones .
    For nerfing Dil awards in STF'S to 240/480/720 .
    For the HP saga .
    For the non optional "optionals" .
    For the combo of the 3 things above that gave us our empty queues .
    For not having any other way to get top gear except through a grindy boring and insanely expensive crafting system .

    And the list goes on .

    Is this all Taco's fault ?
    Hell no .

    Are some Devs too squimish to look at the list above and understand that the Sig protest is exactly that -- a protest against what this game has been turned into by their fellow Devs hands ?

    The answer seems to be affirmative .

    And the dissonance is understandable as well .
    After all, the Devs have moved on from DR and are working on new things now ... , so from their standpoint we're still crying over the metaphorical Tovan Khev (yesterday's news) .

    From our POV ... , some of us are still stuck at Argala, others mourn their Alts and others still struggle to find their lost fun .

    And for those of us ... , the wound that DR created is still here, it still hurts and is still being "looked at" by the Devs with no change in sight .




    ... but hey, we're getting a new system for our Boffs so that makes everything swell ...
  • jtmarshjtmarsh Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    tacofangs wrote: »
    I'm saying that, despite how effective you think those other methods are/are not, this method is only serving to burn yet another bridge.
    People often tout me as being "the only" one to communicate. The only one to wade into the maelstrom. I don't believe that to be the case, but IF that's the true, and IF the signatures are your "last option" and IF they are driving away your last hope. . . they aren't working either.



    :::thud:::thud:::thud:::
    "Hey Joe, why are you beating your face against the wall?"
    "Well, the sledgehammer wasn't working."

    Taco the problem is its the same thing over and over again! If the haters hate this game so much why are they still here? Example... You go to this pizza place and the pizza is bad. Its a 5 year old pizza place and to you its just a bad pizza.. At the same time people still eat at the place! Some people love it!! But you hate it! But instead of walking away and saying "I am going down the road to PaPa Johns." You keep coming back to the pizza place. You complain everyday how bad it is! You complain to customers that like it. You say it sucks!! It needs to change!!! I DONT LIKE THE PIZZA!!! I DONT CARE THAT YOU LIKE IT!! I DONT LIKE IT!! CHANGE IT!! Owner says sir why don't you go to "everquest pizza" down the road.. You come here every day saying you hate it! You say "Because this place needs to change.."

    Taco I have been playing this game from the last week of beta to now almost daily. Its my only game beyond iPhone stuff. For years all I heard was...
    When are we going to get lvl 60!
    When are we going to get T6??
    NEW SHIPS!!
    New PVE!!

    You all gave us LVL 60 and people complain that they need to lvl up
    You gave us new gear and people yell WE HAVE TO GRIND NEW GEAR!!
    You gave us a chance to upgrade most of our gear.. THEY YELL GRIND!
    WE GET NEW SHIPS!!!! People say we want our old ships to be T6!! What?? I admit im not much a gamer anymore. But when I played a lot of games I would work my way up to new ships!! That's the point! New shineys! Leave your T5 like you left your T4 and so on.
    You all gave us some of the best new PVE since launch when you gave us Delta. That was a huge amount of missions! Great stories!! You brought us a bunch of Trek voice actors!! Its really awesome! Now I will say you should of been able to play the story and lvl to 60. That was a mistake you made. But its a great expansion!

    Not to mention these free events where you can earn ships!! Like the winter T6 this year. But no its not playing to some. Some call these great events grind. I call it fun!

    Raise the DILL cap!! Do people think you work for free?? PEOPLE THE GAME IS F2P! They let you convert dill to zen! You don't have to spend a cent to play this game and to get the goodies. The only way Cryptic is to make money is for you to spend money on zen. Cryptic for whatever reason turned this game to FtP and still giving you a chance to earn $$$ gear for free by dill. Now you want them to raise the dill cap?? How the hell are they going to make money! If you were my kids and you nagged about a thing I gave you then I would call you ungrateful and take it away. I am a 14 year business owner. If you were my customer and complained so much about everyone of my moves. Then id tell you to go somewhere else.

    Your job is much like Kobayashi Maru.. Its a no win. The more you give the more they will want.
  • thutmosis85thutmosis85 Member Posts: 2,358 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    So you're showing general discontent to other posters? Because it's already been said that the Dev Team isn't taking any real feedback from it.

    1. Taco just did ... he's obviously upset about it ... is it really "his" fault ... I don't think so ... will he talk about it with his colleagues ... maybe -> so that's a win ...
    2. Quote : (+ maybe some smart people asking why & reading their Feedback, instead of just being insulted)
    Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
  • captainsucrecaptainsucre Member Posts: 62 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    tacofangs wrote: »
    I'm saying that, despite how effective you think those other methods are/are not, this method is only serving to burn yet another bridge.
    People often tout me as being "the only" one to communicate. The only one to wade into the maelstrom. I don't believe that to be the case, but IF that's the true, and IF the signatures are your "last option" and IF they are driving away your last hope. . . they aren't working either.

    What are players supposed to do?

    "burn yet another bridge," are the players to blame? I know that this is may not be what you mean, but it's what I feel you're saying.

    "The only one to wade into the maelstrom." I don't believe that I see any other Cryptic employees posting other than in the bug report forum. There was a sudden "outpouring" of posts by Cryptic higher-ups about two months back. What happened to that? What happened to the discussion? Were changes made? You mentioned in a previous post that, "You want us to interact like adults? Great! Let's do that. Using our words. In a polite, respectful manner (on BOTH sides)," where is the other side?

    Are you only focusing on the signatures? The signatures aren't the problem. The signatures are merely a symptom of a much larger problem.
  • js26568js26568 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Nothing is going to change. This entire discussion is pointless.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Free Tibet!
  • aoax10aoax10 Member Posts: 271 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    vestereng wrote: »
    I think probably you mean well, and I think you are honest, in so far as the meme bothers you and it bothers your co-workers.

    The rest seems to come off as somewhat post-rationalization of stuff you have no say in.


    For example, you just said you haven't gotten any feedback about DR, that you have no idea what people are talking about? But then RIGHT after you say you don't need better feedback? Which one is it, do you even know?

    Another example is when you say "we can develop without the forums".
    When your testers have said on record that "without the forums we cannot do our jobs", in where they get more or less ALL their data, from players, from the forums.

    Remember when you said t6 is what the players asked for?
    When you damn well know people asked for better content - not just notepad editing of NPC health?
    A debate you directly responded to, saying well AI is too resource demanding, but oh well that didn't stop you from claiming we asked for t6 anyway did it?

    That is strictly PR to sell the dil weapon text upgrading system, nothing more so don't even try

    Then your pitch about apples and Broccoli, where you expect us to believe, the developers actually create updates based on what people asked for, all the while you "don't include the forums or players in general"....

    It's only a matter of who developers listen to?


    Nerfed doff upgrinder

    Nerfed all drops and nerfed STF (broke the top outfits for 18 months)

    Tour the galaxy nerfed

    Vendor trash nerfed (my personal favorite)

    Stolen reputation passives (claimed power creep then released new passives to grind for under specialization)

    Deleted exploration

    Killed console fabrication

    DR, nerfed dil

    DR, nerfed EC

    DR, nerfed marks

    DR, nerfed exp

    DR, grinding on an astronomical scale

    DR, millions of dil entry fee for text upgrades with no content

    (just off the top of my head)


    I rank DR as insanity on top of a super nerfed game. The history of the past 2 years have been to kill, nerf, reduce and remove.

    What we then said was, how about instead of nerfing vendor trash, the most pitiful thing I ever saw thank you, how about getting to work on adding content to the game?

    PVP, exploration or whatever else, that actually has been requested.

    Meaningful gameplay for all roles?

    It's pretty bold to sit there and say people asked for the same things they are upset about.

    You see anyone here asking to grind 800 patrol mission for specialization oh please can you make it 1200?

    Or yeah man, I just feel I max out my EC so fast you simply have to take time out and nerf vendor trash before the whole server goes under!!!11

    No you don't. It's a fantasy world you live in, where you tell yourself, "it's impossible to please everyone..."

    "... so I don't have to care about anyone".

    But I don't take that personally at all, I imagine that is a needed defense mechanism so you can live with yourself.


    I think the general consensus is, you have to earn money first but then it's assumed that you at least try to create good gameplay after that with the money given.

    "We've doubled our staff"... you know what I am saying

    Especially when your team comes out and claims respect for star trek etc. there is an implied responsibility, that you are neglecting when you just go for text upgrades milking whales, crafting, upgrading, DR, boff training revamp and I am guessing everything else in 2015?


    Content killing and top dil billing

    I bow down to thee.
  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    aelfwin1 wrote: »
    For not having Tovan Khev to blame all our woes on this time .
    For getting stuck around level 53 and 56 in DR and having to go off to grind .
    For getting exited for an expansion that had 1/5th of the previous mission content of the previous expansion .
    For getting accused of cheating when we employed a 5 year old in game mechanic .
    For getting XP nerfed across the game to herd us like cattle to Argala .
    For thinking that the old Elite STF'S would be like the new Advanced ones .
    For nerfing Dil awards in STF'S to 240/480/720 .
    For the HP saga .
    For the non optional "optionals" .
    For the combo of the 3 things above that gave us our empty queues .
    For not having any other way to get top gear except through a grindy boring and insanely expensive crafting system .

    This is feedback.
    And the list goes on .

    More player devotion to this list is more productive than the Delta Rising signatures. If players made their signature revolving around particular points of this list, it has a much better chance of getting favorable attention.
    Is this all Taco's fault ?
    Hell no .

    I don't think anybody is trying to make that point.
    Are some Devs too squimish to look at the list above and understand that the Sig protest is exactly that -- a protest against what this game has been turned into by their fellow Devs hands ?

    It's like the Occupy Wallstreet protest. It's easier to state what specific changes you want to see made rather than a general discontention. When you start pointing out what specific things you want to see changed, along with reasonable, constructive feedback, the odds of that change coming are signifigantly higher than just a general feeling of, "We want things changed but we don't know how."

    What the Delta Rising signatures are doing are just giving an overall negative feeling. A general sense of unhappiness. If people want changes made, the only way it's going to work is by doing the thing people have been reminding posters to do for years... constructive feedback.
    The answer seems to be affirmative .

    Or they just decide to develop the game without looking at the forums, which they are not obligated to participate in.

    We can either continue to reinforce that belief, but then we don't have room to talk when we ask for more developer communication.
    And the dissonance is understandable as well .
    After all, the Devs have moved on from DR and are working on new things now ... , so from their standpoint we're still crying over the metaphorical Tovan Khev (yesterday's news) .

    Really? Because I seem to recall the patch yesterday addressing issues that came with Delta Rising. Most notably the bugs with the loadouts and power trays.
    From our POV ... , some of us are still stuck at Argala, others mourn their Alts and others still struggle to find their lost fun .

    People are at Argala because they choose to burn themselves out and farm at Argala. I personally prefer hanging out in the Undine Battlezone, Kobali Battlezone, or Voth Battlezone, depending on which enemy group I feel like fighting.

    People paint themselves into a corner, then blame Cryptic for it.
    And for those of us ... , the wound that DR created is still here, it still hurts and is still being "looked at" by the Devs with no change in sight .

    Except the change that comes. Then people ignore that change ever happened.
    ... but hey, we're getting a new system for our Boffs so that makes everything swell ...

    No. It means Cryptic is giving us a quality of life improvement that many of us have been asking for. They aren't entirely complacent.
    ExtxpTp.jpg
  • daveynydaveyny Member Posts: 8,227 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    This is good...

    Folks letting off a bit of steam (even though the intended target isn't present) through (mostly) mutual respect and somewhat constructive criticism. ;)

    While TacoFang isn't really the one that most folks here would like to actually take to task, it's very gracious of him to stand in the others stead.

    One can hear through his posts that we are probably being heard, we just have to remember that He is just as much a cog in the motor of S.T.O. as we are. (he just spins a bit closer to the combustion chamber) and try to adjust our intent so as to not fray the ONE last tenuous thread we have to the Ears of the Powers-That-Be.

    Even he has little to no power to alter the future of this game, so let us not go overboard verbally assaulting him in our frustrations.

    I believe that this thread overall proves that the STO Forums are not truly the "gutter" of the game.
    We might often be teetering on the edge of the curb, but mostly we manage to keep from completely sliding into the backwater refuse of the Inernetz.

    :cool:
    STO Member since February 2009.
    I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
    Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
    upside-down-banana-smiley-emoticon.gif
  • fatman592fatman592 Member Posts: 1,207 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Now now, don't say anything critical to or about Taco. Otherwise the 'Q' account may spank you...
  • hartzillahartzilla Member Posts: 1,177 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    iconians wrote: »
    The queues have more issues than just that, Cryptic is aware of all if not most of them. Hopefully they will address it.

    hopefully they pay attention to the reality of their causal playerbase instead of buying into the hardcore players fantasies.
    Being EC rich is easy if you put the time and effort into it. But no, there are no free rides when it comes to a player-based economy. You have to pitch in to reap the benefits.

    I rather not waste my gaming time on something that got useless after level 50 outside of rep financing.
    Just because it didn't resemble 100% of what we hoped doesn't mean that it isn't an improvement.

    Oh joy the lesser evil argument. Except in this case the major complaint was the typical hardcore gamer argument of it being too easy which really comes off more as sounding like bruised egos becuase their super awesome gear that really wasn't that special can now be gotten by anyone.
    Then you can. Nothing is stopping you from doing the 20 hour research missions and getting high enough in a school to make something useful for yourself.

    Except the lack of the Doff, I can only get by playing the RNG game or wasting my time EC grinding just to make something that could probably be a piece of TRIBBLE since the RNG mechanic
  • gulberatgulberat Member Posts: 5,505 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    iconians wrote: »
    More player devotion to this list is more productive than the Delta Rising signatures. If players made their signature revolving around particular points of this list, it has a much better chance of getting favorable attention.

    See below. For my part, anyway, that's what I've been doing. It may not be as flashy but it's been there for quite a while.

    Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
    Proudly F2P.  Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
  • bridgernbridgern Member Posts: 711 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    For me the major problems are the lag of bug fixing, the introduction of new systems and needing dilithium for everything.

    Like many of us we like Star Trek that's why we are still here and we all hope that the game will improve. I for one I am here since Open Beta, the game has come a long way and it did improve but some things went into the wrong direction.

    Everything I say is from the view of me as a player.

    1.) Bug fixing seems to have no high priority.

    2.) Systems are released even when the Devs know that they are broken

    3.) Ships (stats, models) will only be updated and fixed when you can make money out of it

    4.) Balancing: That is one thing we are praying for years, factions need to be equal to each other but they are not and this needs to be adressed.

    5.) it was said very often that Devs are casual players, and that is fine but we also need some hardcore Devs that do PvP and PvE at expert level so you understand what we are talking about.

    6.) Dilithium: I know a currency is needed but everything in this game cost Dilithium, a game is supposed to make fun but my biggest concern is when I build a new ship how much Dilithium will cost me that and how long will it take me to get it.

    7.) ALTS: The game is very alt unfriendly, it was greate when we got the Reputation Sponsorship but that was nearly a year ago and since than every alt for itself. If a player has more alts to explore the game as a TAC a SCI and ENG he should get a benefit for it, and with the update how the Bridge Officer Training is going to work this is a step into the right direction but guess what we need Dilithium, go to point #6

    This game has huge potential but major issues needs to be addressed first.
    Bridger.png
  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    hartzilla wrote: »
    hopefully they pay attention to the reality of their causal playerbase instead of buying into the hardcore players fantasies.

    No disagreement there.
    I rather not waste my gaming time on something that got useless after level 50 outside of rep financing.

    So it's either useless or it isn't. Which is it?
    Oh joy the lesser evil argument. Except in this case the major complaint was the typical hardcore gamer argument of it being too easy which really comes off more as sounding like bruised egos becuase their super awesome gear that really wasn't that special can now be gotten by anyone.

    If they put the time into it, yes. But for people who choose not to participate, they can either ignore it or buy things from people who do craft.

    And yes, I am going with the lesser evil argument because I don't believe in settling for less. I believe in constant improvements across the board. I don't believe anything should be touched and then immediately left alone.

    I believe there is always room for improvement in all things STO. I just believe certain things should have higher priority than others. The crafting system and bridge officer training system are things I considered high priority.

    Going with a lesser evil doesn't mean you've picked evil and now you have to live with it. Lesser evil should realistically mean you've picked a place closer to build from in the direction you want to go.

    But too many people on the forums just give up entirely and decide to just throw whatever they can get their hands on at Cryptic.
    Except the lack of the Doff, I can only get by playing the RNG game or wasting my time EC grinding just to make something that could probably be a piece of TRIBBLE since the RNG mechanic

    That's how it works. You either do it that way or you buy what you want from the exchange from someone who does want to play the RNG game.
    ExtxpTp.jpg
This discussion has been closed.