The imperial star destroyer and super star destroyer both have a glaring weakness, take out the shield generators on the top of the ship and take out the bridge.
That how the rebels took down the executor, one crazy A-Wing pilot rammed the bridge and sent the executor crashing into the death star, all trek ships have to do take down the generators and beam a torp onto the bridge, bye bye star destroyer
If you examine it more closely, that took a lot of lucky breaks on the Rebels' part.
Notice the fighters were firing at the generators from practically point-blank range, meaning that they had to get inside the ship's point-defense envelope first. Also, needing to fire from point-blank range at all is indicative of some pretty heavy ECM. (The novelization of ANH states that that DS1's ECM was so powerful it actually distorted space.)
The A-Wing was attacking another ship entirely and ran into the Executor when it was basically out of the pilot's control (watch the preceding shot closely: the A-Wing had been hit by defensive fire). Given the size of space the odds against that are frankly astronomical.
ST ships are designed so that you can reestablish control of the ship from elsewhere aboard, such as Main Engineering. It's a sound engineering practice and likely usable by SW ships as well. But considering that the Empire's going to be more concerned about preventing sabotage than the very-large-number-to-one odds that the ship is going to be pointed at a small planet when control from the bridge is lost, this isn't going to be meant to be easy to do.
Try evidence that doesn't require a sequence of freak accidents.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
ST:TOS torpedoes had warp sustaining engines, in TNG they could either achieve warp by themselves or be fired at warp from stationary positions, plus in voyager we've seen warp capable torpedoes, smaller than photon torpedoes.
In SW they can't hit fighters a low c, don't expect them to hit torpedoes at high c.
SW uses different sizes of guns for different purposes and, per the ANH mission briefing, the Death Star was expecting an attack by capital ships, so they used anti-capital guns that couldn't turn fast enough to target an X-Wing most of the time. And yet they still brought one down.
Navigational capabilities of photon torpedoes are unknown.
Argumentum ad ignorantium. Based on observed canon evidence, with the exception of that modified emission-seeking torpedo in STVI, torpedoes have never shown any guidance at all, relying on aiming the ship instead.
Both shields can't stop all energy directed at them, but in ST that seem to have less effect than in SW where ships are capable of blowing large pieces of eachother through shields.
I can count dozens of times in ST where ships took severe damage through their shields from enemy gunfire, too.
ST shields are bubble shields capable of stopping matter and energy, they work in grids, meaning if port grid fails it will not compromise aft grid and vice versa, energy to shields can be redistributed from one grid to another, shields frequencies can be remodulated allowing a better defense against a single foe.
SW shields are sectional, too. Forward and aft shields are mentioned in ANH and TESB, and the shield officer on the Executor didn't say they've lost all deflector shields, just the ones on the bridge.
As for accuracy in SW cruisers seem to miss many shots against eachother, in the opening scene in the first film we see how they mist most shots against a big corvette (150m length).
Have you been watching that moron Idazmi7 or something? They missed some shots before the target moved out of the frame. Most of the ones we actually saw the effects of hit their target.
In ST they have slipstream (at least starfleet) and transwarp (voth and Borg), slipstream goes at 300 LY/h and transwarp beaming (is the Spock from our reality who tells Scotty about transwarp beaming, which means that at one point before 2387 transwarp beaming exists in the cannon universe) can go pretty much anywhere instantly.
You're moving the goalposts. The subject is the Federation as of VOY versus Palptine's Empire, not all of ST versus all of SW.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
To me the biggest weakness in SW tech is that they have a form of shield tech that, in ships at least, tend to be patchy. IE you can knock out shields entirely on one side of the ship and leave them totally untouched on the other. Federation ships can transfer shield power.
Your fallacy is No True Scotsman. You're saying that because Star Wars doesn't bother to explain anything because it's irrelevant to the plot, it's not sci-fi.
For your information, better than 90% of Star Trek's "explanations" are complete BS that throws random buzzwords together in an utterly counterfactual manner in order to fill up airtime.
If Star Trek can be counted as sci-fi, then Star Wars is also sci-fi. Star Wars has the Force, Star Trek has Q. How are the two really any different?
It's universally known that Star Wars is not sci fi. It's fantasy in a space setting. George Lucas (or whoever came up with the numbers for SW tech) literally made everything up on the spot. There's no basis in reality whatsoever. Lightsabers? The death star which is a logistical impossibility? The Force?
Star Trek's technobabble is often based on real life theories. Even holodecks are based on the idea of matter-energy conversion.
These arguments about which ships will in a fight cannot be resolved because it's all fake with made up numbers. SW vs ST comes down to "SW wins because so-and-so who wrote some book about SW tech says their lasers do 1 million damage."
It's much more interesting to debate knights vs samurai.
One word why Star Trek wins hands down. Transporters.
Even the current game makes use of Torpedo: Transport Warhead.
You teleport a live torpedo into the Command decks of the enemy ship.
Even as ineffective as it is in-game, in reality it would be a severely crippling blow, like teleporting normal rifle rounds inside of the tank, and even further, inside of the tank crew that's driving it.
Star Wars has no technology comparable to a Transporter. They cannot simply beam the warhead off, nor even attempt to defuse or contain a Photon Torpedo, much less a Quantum Torpedo. A single warhead beamed into the bridge and/or power plant of a Star Destroyer, regardless of the size of the craft, would be utterly devastating.
Even if there was a Death Star, you could pull the same trick and just beam a live warhead into it's core without having to bother with a trench run in a Peregrine.
When Star Trek "takes the kid gloves off" as it were, with their technology, they suddenly become terrifying with the kind of power that a one or two-off shows when you think about how regularly they could throw it around if not restricted by the plot.
In "The emissary" (TBG) a class 8 probe (the baseline used for photon torpedoes) was launched from an starbase at warp speed, so either they can achieve warp or at least starbases can accelerate a probe at warp 9.
SW uses different sizes of guns for different purposes and, per the ANH mission briefing, the Death Star was expecting an attack by capital ships, so they used anti-capital guns that couldn't turn fast enough to target an X-Wing most of the time. And yet they still brought one down.
But Star destroyers do have anti-fighter defenses, and yet we see them miss most of their shots, while phaser can be used both against fighters and capital ships.
Argumentum ad ignorantium. Based on observed canon evidence, with the exception of that modified emission-seeking torpedo in STVI, torpedoes have never shown any guidance at all, relying on aiming the ship instead.
That's not how that fallacy works, It would be correct if I had stated that since we don't know how the navigation systems of photon torpedoes work they can do whatever I say they do, I just merely stated that since we don't know how they work you cannot compare them to SW proton torpedoes, since there is no baseline for comparison.
They do have a guidance system, in the episode Half a life the guidance system is removed from one photon torpedo.
I can count dozens of times in ST where ships took severe damage through their shields from enemy gunfire, too.
Other than situations where shields are completely ineffective or shields are down I can't recall any kind of damage as severe as that seen in SW.
SW shields are sectional, too. Forward and aft shields are mentioned in ANH and TESB, and the shield officer on the Executor didn't say they've lost all deflector shields, just the ones on the bridge.
Ok, that was a translation mistake, after seen the original version it says bridge deflector shields, in my country they just say we've lost shields. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RW_hGOFukMQ
Have you been watching that moron Idazmi7 or something? They missed some shots before the target moved out of the frame. Most of the ones we actually saw the effects of hit their target.
I don't know who that guy is, I'm watching the movies right now, the empire can't hit stuff at point blank.
You're moving the goalposts. The subject is the Federation as of VOY versus Palptine's Empire, not all of ST versus all of SW.
Why the federation of VOY? I always assumed it was the STO universe vs empire, hell if it's only fed vs empire then empire wins 100% even if it's the 2409 fed, I always though it was our galaxy against theirs.
I think it should be most of SW vs most of star trek. That's what I thought when the OP said "ALL OUT BATTLE." I thought that means everything counts.
I'm gonna be discussing STO (since it's the game we are playing) vs empire.
Those star destroyers have no chance against a MKXIV AP[CrtD]x3 scimitar beam boat, the scimitar will just BFAWIII the TRIBBLE out of the star destroyer.
My opinion is that in a space battle Trek would win in the end even if its firepower is weaker than Wars due to the fact Trek has shields vs. the hull in Wars.
In ground combat Wars would win with its Jedi/Sith abilities with only seem to be a line of site/area effect which is why it wouldn't be as effective in space combat.
Q = your argument is invalid, the emperor was NEVER omnipotent and had limits was killed, Q is omnipotent and would raz to death all sith lords and jedi who threatened his beloved humans. THE END.
laser at a gigatrigawatt? no shields* and oh yea Lucas tech never made sense, star wars is a DRAMA that is all, a hopeless vision of a bygone era long ago.
Trek MAKES SOME SENSE and is a hopeful vision of a future yet to pass
Victory for drama queens - star wars always
for those with brains, it is has and always will be trek.
No, he did the other version of SW vs ST. Y'know, the one with all the Disney Princesses and Godzilla being attacked by aliens on July 4th.
hmm, as long as Godzilla stomps Bambi, I'm down for a ticket.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,047Community Moderator
edited December 2014
Looking at this from an objective point of view, we're talking two different fighting styles. Star Wars ships are large, and designed for broadside tactics. Pull up alongside the enemy and open fire while taking it in return. Star Trek ships are smaller and more maneuverable. Basically knife fight the enemy.
I think a good comparison would be Old style sailing warships fighting compared to modern Submarine warfare. One one side you've got size as a defense, but you end up sacrificing maneuverability. On the other you've got some powerful weapons, but smaller ships.
If we break down Star Wars "Lasers" into their working components, I think most of them would turn out to be some form of plasma based weapon if the large scale capital ship turbolasers are similar to hand held blasters.
In all fairness, matching Star Wars against Star Trek isn't going to work out as well due to the technology variable and the fact both sides fight differently. I mean... the Defiant is basically a gunship that fights like a starfighter. A better comparison would be to pit Star Wars against something that uses similar tactics, such as Halo or Wing Commander. And before someone says Halo would get ROFLstomped because of projectile weapons... Tactics can overcome Technological advantage. Also... UNSC Marines have better accuracy than Imperial Stormtroopers.
Okay, gonna work this out based on the following perimiters:
- Since we honestly have no idea how their technologies would hold up, I'm making them equal.
- The era will be the Galactic Civil War era for Star Wars, and the The Next Generation era for Star Trek
- Only officially-produced on-screen material will be used. No Expanded Universe for Star Wars OR Star Trek
- We are pretending the galaxies and time eras are placed next together, a wormhole simply would not work out due to DS9's self-replicating mines
- I'm a fan of both
Star Wars will have a massive war machine that the Federation cannot possibly hope to resist. The Empire commands so many assests its sheer might would totally destroy the Federation. They would be able to hold out for a short while. Especially on ground Star Wars would dominate, using their heavy ground vehicles such as AT-AT's to wipe out planetary ground defenses.
The Federation receives backup from the Klingons and Romulans, who feel equally threatened by the massive Star Wars invasion. The Cardassians and Breen will join the Alliance as well, while the Tholians start a separate war effort. This alliance is still not enough to prevent an invasion of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. Star Wars would however not get a foot hold in the Gamma Quadrant due to the Dominion's equal military prowess and cloning technology, while the Delta Quadrant would be a big fight where the Borg, and separate from them the other species, will be able to keep invaders out for the time being.
When the Death Star starts blowing stuff up, the Federation becomes desperate, but the Klingons absolutely snap. A couple of B'rels travel towards Star Wars territory under cloak, and start blowing up the atmosphere of planets (we know they can do that, and even if the conditions on that one planet were specific, we know that they can modify torpedoes to render planets uninhabitable). The Romulans debate, and join the KLingons in this. Although the Federation condemns this course of action, they are powerless to see numerous Star Wars planets being rendered useless.
The Empire will be forced to withdraw massive recourses from the front lines in order to be able to defend their own worlds from the destructive Klingon/Romulan strike force, giving the remaining Star Trek forces a chance to rally and reclaim their own Galaxy. Ships start getting smashed into each other by Sith and Jedi. The main combatants on the Star Trek side are the Dominion and the Borg, both capable of sustained long-term warfare while taking extreme casualties.
The Breen make it to Coruscant and inflict major damage on that planet and its defenses. Even though the Breen take serious hits, they manage to take out the Emperor's Palace, as well as other governmental and military structures throughout that planet. The Jem'Hadar join them there and succesfully wipe out large amounts of the civilian population.
Palpatine snaps and start a personal campaign to reclaim his own galaxy. With the Force, he can crash any Star Trek ship into another. The Klingon-Romulan strike force will by now have been hunted down and destroyed, stabilizing the front. The First Death Star will probably already be destroyed, with a second under construction.
The Romulans launch their first Scimitar, send it to the location where the Death star is being build, and Thalaron its crew to pieces.
Q thinks he has shown his son enough of how irradic immortals can be, snaps his fingers and restores both galaxies back into their normal timeline.
Cloaking technology is a real problem in Star Wars. Nothing in the movies. A few minor mentions in the novels after Return of the Jedi including in Heir to the Empire, then in SWTOR, the game is infested with Cloaking Devices even though SWTOR takes place thousands of years before the movies.
Personally, my problem with Star Wars removing the Expanded Universe is there will likely be no Mara Jade or Grand Admiral Thrawn.
Cloaking technology is a real problem in Star Wars. Nothing in the movies. A few minor mentions in the novels after Return of the Jedi including in Heir to the Empire, then in SWTOR, the game is infested with Cloaking Devices even though SWTOR takes place thousands of years before the movies.
Personally, my problem with Star Wars removing the Expanded Universe is there will likely be no Mara Jade or Grand Admiral Thrawn.
One mention in the movies - in TESB, when the Falcon buzzes the Star Destroyer and disappears: "Impossible! No ship that small has a cloaking device!"
Incidentally, that's another mark against the sensors in SW - can you imagine someone landing a freighter on an inaccessible part of the hull of the Enterprise, and Picard having no idea it's even there?
One mention in the movies - in TESB, when the Falcon buzzes the Star Destroyer and disappears: "Impossible! No ship that small has a cloaking device!"
Incidentally, that's another mark against the sensors in SW - can you imagine someone landing a freighter on an inaccessible part of the hull of the Enterprise, and Picard having no idea it's even there?
Considering that the Enterprise is a third the size of an ISD and landing a freighter on it would probably cover up a few viewports? Not really.
Although honestly I don't find that scene too believable either. My only suggestion is that it's such refuge in audacity that the Imperial techs who designed the thing never thought of it. The sensors are going to be looking for things away from the ship most of the time.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Comments
If you examine it more closely, that took a lot of lucky breaks on the Rebels' part.
Try evidence that doesn't require a sequence of freak accidents.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
SW uses different sizes of guns for different purposes and, per the ANH mission briefing, the Death Star was expecting an attack by capital ships, so they used anti-capital guns that couldn't turn fast enough to target an X-Wing most of the time. And yet they still brought one down.
Argumentum ad ignorantium. Based on observed canon evidence, with the exception of that modified emission-seeking torpedo in STVI, torpedoes have never shown any guidance at all, relying on aiming the ship instead.
I can count dozens of times in ST where ships took severe damage through their shields from enemy gunfire, too.
SW shields are sectional, too. Forward and aft shields are mentioned in ANH and TESB, and the shield officer on the Executor didn't say they've lost all deflector shields, just the ones on the bridge.
Have you been watching that moron Idazmi7 or something? They missed some shots before the target moved out of the frame. Most of the ones we actually saw the effects of hit their target.
"Sacrifice of Angels" disagrees with you, as does any time a BOP or the Defiant fired at anything.
You're moving the goalposts. The subject is the Federation as of VOY versus Palptine's Empire, not all of ST versus all of SW.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
My character Tsin'xing
It's universally known that Star Wars is not sci fi. It's fantasy in a space setting. George Lucas (or whoever came up with the numbers for SW tech) literally made everything up on the spot. There's no basis in reality whatsoever. Lightsabers? The death star which is a logistical impossibility? The Force?
Star Trek's technobabble is often based on real life theories. Even holodecks are based on the idea of matter-energy conversion.
These arguments about which ships will in a fight cannot be resolved because it's all fake with made up numbers. SW vs ST comes down to "SW wins because so-and-so who wrote some book about SW tech says their lasers do 1 million damage."
It's much more interesting to debate knights vs samurai.
Well I don't know, I thought the Clone troopers versus Jem'Hadar and the Klingons versus Spartans debates were fascinating.
Even the current game makes use of Torpedo: Transport Warhead.
You teleport a live torpedo into the Command decks of the enemy ship.
Even as ineffective as it is in-game, in reality it would be a severely crippling blow, like teleporting normal rifle rounds inside of the tank, and even further, inside of the tank crew that's driving it.
Star Wars has no technology comparable to a Transporter. They cannot simply beam the warhead off, nor even attempt to defuse or contain a Photon Torpedo, much less a Quantum Torpedo. A single warhead beamed into the bridge and/or power plant of a Star Destroyer, regardless of the size of the craft, would be utterly devastating.
Even if there was a Death Star, you could pull the same trick and just beam a live warhead into it's core without having to bother with a trench run in a Peregrine.
When Star Trek "takes the kid gloves off" as it were, with their technology, they suddenly become terrifying with the kind of power that a one or two-off shows when you think about how regularly they could throw it around if not restricted by the plot.
In "The emissary" (TBG) a class 8 probe (the baseline used for photon torpedoes) was launched from an starbase at warp speed, so either they can achieve warp or at least starbases can accelerate a probe at warp 9.
But Star destroyers do have anti-fighter defenses, and yet we see them miss most of their shots, while phaser can be used both against fighters and capital ships.
That's not how that fallacy works, It would be correct if I had stated that since we don't know how the navigation systems of photon torpedoes work they can do whatever I say they do, I just merely stated that since we don't know how they work you cannot compare them to SW proton torpedoes, since there is no baseline for comparison.
They do have a guidance system, in the episode Half a life the guidance system is removed from one photon torpedo.
Other than situations where shields are completely ineffective or shields are down I can't recall any kind of damage as severe as that seen in SW.
Ok, that was a translation mistake, after seen the original version it says bridge deflector shields, in my country they just say we've lost shields. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RW_hGOFukMQ
I don't know who that guy is, I'm watching the movies right now, the empire can't hit stuff at point blank.
Why the federation of VOY? I always assumed it was the STO universe vs empire, hell if it's only fed vs empire then empire wins 100% even if it's the 2409 fed, I always though it was our galaxy against theirs.
I'm gonna be discussing STO (since it's the game we are playing) vs empire.
Those star destroyers have no chance against a MKXIV AP[CrtD]x3 scimitar beam boat, the scimitar will just BFAWIII the TRIBBLE out of the star destroyer.
In ground combat Wars would win with its Jedi/Sith abilities with only seem to be a line of site/area effect which is why it wouldn't be as effective in space combat.
They don't really do that anymore.
system Lord Baal is dead
Reapers were the best ever to bad that ME3 destroy that.
Star Wars have better technology so they will win.
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
My thoughts exactly. :rolleyes:
But all of the Empire's (and the New Republic's) might would be worse than useless against...
Lion-O and the Thundercats! :P
Robert Orci must be writing your version.
laser at a gigatrigawatt? no shields* and oh yea Lucas tech never made sense, star wars is a DRAMA that is all, a hopeless vision of a bygone era long ago.
Trek MAKES SOME SENSE and is a hopeful vision of a future yet to pass
Victory for drama queens - star wars always
for those with brains, it is has and always will be trek.
hmm, as long as Godzilla stomps Bambi, I'm down for a ticket.
I think a good comparison would be Old style sailing warships fighting compared to modern Submarine warfare. One one side you've got size as a defense, but you end up sacrificing maneuverability. On the other you've got some powerful weapons, but smaller ships.
If we break down Star Wars "Lasers" into their working components, I think most of them would turn out to be some form of plasma based weapon if the large scale capital ship turbolasers are similar to hand held blasters.
In all fairness, matching Star Wars against Star Trek isn't going to work out as well due to the technology variable and the fact both sides fight differently. I mean... the Defiant is basically a gunship that fights like a starfighter. A better comparison would be to pit Star Wars against something that uses similar tactics, such as Halo or Wing Commander. And before someone says Halo would get ROFLstomped because of projectile weapons... Tactics can overcome Technological advantage. Also... UNSC Marines have better accuracy than Imperial Stormtroopers.
Okay, gonna work this out based on the following perimiters:
- Since we honestly have no idea how their technologies would hold up, I'm making them equal.
- The era will be the Galactic Civil War era for Star Wars, and the The Next Generation era for Star Trek
- Only officially-produced on-screen material will be used. No Expanded Universe for Star Wars OR Star Trek
- We are pretending the galaxies and time eras are placed next together, a wormhole simply would not work out due to DS9's self-replicating mines
- I'm a fan of both
Star Wars will have a massive war machine that the Federation cannot possibly hope to resist. The Empire commands so many assests its sheer might would totally destroy the Federation. They would be able to hold out for a short while. Especially on ground Star Wars would dominate, using their heavy ground vehicles such as AT-AT's to wipe out planetary ground defenses.
The Federation receives backup from the Klingons and Romulans, who feel equally threatened by the massive Star Wars invasion. The Cardassians and Breen will join the Alliance as well, while the Tholians start a separate war effort. This alliance is still not enough to prevent an invasion of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. Star Wars would however not get a foot hold in the Gamma Quadrant due to the Dominion's equal military prowess and cloning technology, while the Delta Quadrant would be a big fight where the Borg, and separate from them the other species, will be able to keep invaders out for the time being.
When the Death Star starts blowing stuff up, the Federation becomes desperate, but the Klingons absolutely snap. A couple of B'rels travel towards Star Wars territory under cloak, and start blowing up the atmosphere of planets (we know they can do that, and even if the conditions on that one planet were specific, we know that they can modify torpedoes to render planets uninhabitable). The Romulans debate, and join the KLingons in this. Although the Federation condemns this course of action, they are powerless to see numerous Star Wars planets being rendered useless.
The Empire will be forced to withdraw massive recourses from the front lines in order to be able to defend their own worlds from the destructive Klingon/Romulan strike force, giving the remaining Star Trek forces a chance to rally and reclaim their own Galaxy. Ships start getting smashed into each other by Sith and Jedi. The main combatants on the Star Trek side are the Dominion and the Borg, both capable of sustained long-term warfare while taking extreme casualties.
The Breen make it to Coruscant and inflict major damage on that planet and its defenses. Even though the Breen take serious hits, they manage to take out the Emperor's Palace, as well as other governmental and military structures throughout that planet. The Jem'Hadar join them there and succesfully wipe out large amounts of the civilian population.
Palpatine snaps and start a personal campaign to reclaim his own galaxy. With the Force, he can crash any Star Trek ship into another. The Klingon-Romulan strike force will by now have been hunted down and destroyed, stabilizing the front. The First Death Star will probably already be destroyed, with a second under construction.
The Romulans launch their first Scimitar, send it to the location where the Death star is being build, and Thalaron its crew to pieces.
Q thinks he has shown his son enough of how irradic immortals can be, snaps his fingers and restores both galaxies back into their normal timeline.
Join the Deltas today!
Personally, my problem with Star Wars removing the Expanded Universe is there will likely be no Mara Jade or Grand Admiral Thrawn.
Incidentally, that's another mark against the sensors in SW - can you imagine someone landing a freighter on an inaccessible part of the hull of the Enterprise, and Picard having no idea it's even there?
Considering that the Enterprise is a third the size of an ISD and landing a freighter on it would probably cover up a few viewports? Not really.
Although honestly I don't find that scene too believable either. My only suggestion is that it's such refuge in audacity that the Imperial techs who designed the thing never thought of it. The sensors are going to be looking for things away from the ship most of the time.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Because Firefly aims to misbehave.
-Leonard Nimoy, RIP