rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,117Community Moderator
edited January 2015
atlantra, I also happen to like B5. I also like Stargate, Wing Commander, and I'm one of those nuts that likes BOTH Star Trek and Star Wars.
The main thing is that both sides have advantages, but the issue is we're getting the polarized fans who find any advantage as the winning key such as Force Users or the Genesis device.
I still think it would have been better to compare Star Wars to a franchise that uses similar tactics like Wing Commander or Halo. We've got two very different fighting styles here.
You're right, starsword, we don't decide what SW canon is. Lucasfilm does. And the last pronouncement on the topic before the sale of Lucasfilm and Lucasarts to Disney, was that "canon" was what we saw in the movies and the Clone Wars TV series. The EU was tossed. So sadly, midichlorians are canon, but thank the Maker the Sun-Crusher isn't. (Or the Star Forge, for that matter.)
Yeah, the "Legends" continuity (pretty much everything published before 2014) is no longer canon. However, there's been new EU material written since that is considered canon. And at the same level as the movies, no less.
Yes. TOS episode: Journey to Babel. The Enterprise is at impulse and the Orion ship attacks by making multiple passes at "Warp 10" (pre-TNG scale) with good effectiveness.
TOS "Journey to Babel" is also cited as an example of warp strafing. The Enterprise is attacked by an unidentified vessel with modified warp engines, giving it greater speed than the Enterprise by a couple of warp factors. It repeatedly approaches the Enterprise at Warp 8 and rakes the ship with phaser fire, but the Enterprise is unable to effectively return fire against the fast-moving attacker. Kirk is eventually forced to trick the enemy ship into approaching at sublight speed in order to deal with it.
The fact that the enemy approaches at sublight speed when the Enterprise is "stopped" indicates that a warp strafe would not be plausible against a "stationary" target.
Secondly, even if we had to come out of warp to fire (which we don't) we could fire and jump back to warp a lot faster then it would take those lumbering SW behemoths to react.
Also, regarding the disparate scales of Fed ships vs SW capital ships, you seem to be thinking bigger must be harder to disable/cripple/destroy. As I said before, just a few well-placed quantum torpedoes and say goodbye to your engines. Plus you've seen many instances of the pinpoint accuracy of Fed weapons to take out specific systems such as weapons. So now your big impressive SW capital ship is defenseless and drifting through space. Go ahead, launch your little TIE fighters. LOL.
P.S. Laughing at your link. Just because some guy made a Wiki doesn't make it true.
Sorry, you need an actual counterargument.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Actually, I don't need a GD thing. /samuelljackson
That Wiki is just one guy's opinion. I have my own opinion. Mine is based on what I've seen from both franchises. If you want to read something into a plot that wasn't there, be my guest. :rolleyes:
Bottom line is this is all conjecture, and all based on a fictional set of technologies with ill-defined limits and capabilities.
Just don't throw in any Galaxy-class cruisers, and we'll be alright. They are prone to warp core breaches!
The type of warfare as waged in Star Trek are but little skirmishes compared to the galaxy wide wars waged in Star Wars. While the ultra-cataclysmic (in Star Trek terms) Dominion War brought the major powers of the Alpha & Beta Quadrants (one little corner of the galaxy) to their knees, the Clone Wars and all sorts of wars waged in Star Wars were being done across the entirety of a Galaxy.
Think about that.
The sheer military power, on top of fast space travel to span a galaxy?
You can debate what you want about torpedoes this, phasers this, turbolasers that.
The real killer with Star Wars vs Star Trek is the sheer scale of fighting done as well as the extremely fast space travel. The Galactic Empire or Galactic Republic could take its massive military forces to any level of concentration and pick WHERE and WHEN they attack. The major powers of Star Trek cannot deal with that level of travel as done by the military of Star Wars, nor can they even comprehend the massive forces that are built up to fight wars across the expanse of a galaxy.
at the speed of light, it would take around four years to reach Alpha Centauri.
at the speed of light.
"WARP" is a geometric multiplier of the speed of light.
are you sure about your Starwars ships being faster? It could be that the SWG is just a bit...smaller than the Milky Way, like maybe the size of a decent stellar cluster. IN which case, SW ships are likely slower than Starfleet ships.
By a lot.
Take a look again at the scale of war and over how much space the militaries of Star Trek fight. Take a look again how long it takes for them to move from one little system to another.
Take a look again on that the Galactic Republic and Galactic Empire DID encompass the expanse of a Galaxy, utilizing military forces to secure and fight across that massive expanse of space.
You can play with terminology all you want. But when you look at the true scale of fighting, whether in terms of size of forces or the immensity of space wars take place, Star Wars has shown that the major players fight on a Galactic Level.
Star Trek? It's like watching a couple little kids fight in a remote schoolyard. All this while the militaries of Star Wars fight across the entire region, throwing forces willy nilly across anywhere they can in quick time.
No region in the galaxy was safe from massive military attack in Star Wars. Could the same be said in Star Trek?
No. Hellllll nooooo...
The major political and military powers of Star Trek are proud of controlling their little city blocks, and fighting with the kids in the next neighborhood. The major military and political powers of Star Trek fight on a scale far, far larger and expansive.
Better yet, let's do this:
Have the vaunted Federation, Klingon Empire, Romulans, Dominion, Borg, have shown the capability to fight and wage war on the galactic level?
No.
Have the Galactic Republic, Galactic Empire shown the capability to fight and wage war on the galactic level? They sure have. Matter of fact, it's old hat and not unique to even them. The CIS, Rebel Alliance have, and I'm just sticking to movie canon here.
People, you're forgetting about the 7 borg transwarp hubs! Imagine a fleet of Jem'Hadar battleships/dreadnoughts comming out of transwarp near any important imperial installation. The imps would get fried before they even knew what happened.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Meanwhile, the Imperial Fleet or Republic Navy / Grand Army of the Republic, assemble massive forces and use hyperdrives to pick and choose where they strike. They are not restricted to "Transwarp Hubs" or other nonsense.
The militaries of Star Wars treat long ranged attacks across the galaxy like you would today by grabbing a couple of the guys, grab some gear, and go driving cross country.
Not so in Star Trek. They're despairing about going from one quadrant to another without growing old by the time they arrive there.
With people using Q as a crutch, I've been doing some thinking. Would Q really do anything about it? This is the guy who toys around with the human race because they're interesting. Someone who could easily stop the borg or the dominion war but doesn't. Would he really stop the war, or would he toy with both factions as a few others have said before me. Strip Jedi's of their powers, give sith vibes to fed folk or Klingons and let them run wild on the Federation. Even the odds, play favorites, swap stats around and throw ships all over the universe. Take captains and put them in his own little games.
Q is all powerful, but it doesn't mean he will do much to help, if at all. In the end, no one wins. Because Q. Only Q.
The whole issue with a Star Trek vs Star Wars debate is that one is science fiction and the other is just fiction. It's like putting Tiamat versus a Ticonderoga Cruiser.
Despite some inconsistencies Star Trek has a scientific basis while Star Wars takes the "think of a number and add a trillion zeros to it" approach.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
both universes have board games with weapons damage and range of weapons
star trek...range 240,000 km with phasers
star wars under 10,000 km
damage about equal
no contest
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Comments
The main thing is that both sides have advantages, but the issue is we're getting the polarized fans who find any advantage as the winning key such as Force Users or the Genesis device.
I still think it would have been better to compare Star Wars to a franchise that uses similar tactics like Wing Commander or Halo. We've got two very different fighting styles here.
Try again.
You didn't read the counterargument in the link, did you? Here, I'll even save you the trouble of scrolling down the page. Hell, I'll even quote it for you.
Evidence?
Evidence?
Sorry, you need an actual counterargument.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
That Wiki is just one guy's opinion. I have my own opinion. Mine is based on what I've seen from both franchises. If you want to read something into a plot that wasn't there, be my guest. :rolleyes:
Bottom line is this is all conjecture, and all based on a fictional set of technologies with ill-defined limits and capabilities.
Just don't throw in any Galaxy-class cruisers, and we'll be alright. They are prone to warp core breaches!
Think about that.
The sheer military power, on top of fast space travel to span a galaxy?
You can debate what you want about torpedoes this, phasers this, turbolasers that.
The real killer with Star Wars vs Star Trek is the sheer scale of fighting done as well as the extremely fast space travel. The Galactic Empire or Galactic Republic could take its massive military forces to any level of concentration and pick WHERE and WHEN they attack. The major powers of Star Trek cannot deal with that level of travel as done by the military of Star Wars, nor can they even comprehend the massive forces that are built up to fight wars across the expanse of a galaxy.
Take a look again at the scale of war and over how much space the militaries of Star Trek fight. Take a look again how long it takes for them to move from one little system to another.
Take a look again on that the Galactic Republic and Galactic Empire DID encompass the expanse of a Galaxy, utilizing military forces to secure and fight across that massive expanse of space.
You can play with terminology all you want. But when you look at the true scale of fighting, whether in terms of size of forces or the immensity of space wars take place, Star Wars has shown that the major players fight on a Galactic Level.
Star Trek? It's like watching a couple little kids fight in a remote schoolyard. All this while the militaries of Star Wars fight across the entire region, throwing forces willy nilly across anywhere they can in quick time.
No region in the galaxy was safe from massive military attack in Star Wars. Could the same be said in Star Trek?
No. Hellllll nooooo...
The major political and military powers of Star Trek are proud of controlling their little city blocks, and fighting with the kids in the next neighborhood. The major military and political powers of Star Trek fight on a scale far, far larger and expansive.
Better yet, let's do this:
Have the vaunted Federation, Klingon Empire, Romulans, Dominion, Borg, have shown the capability to fight and wage war on the galactic level?
No.
Have the Galactic Republic, Galactic Empire shown the capability to fight and wage war on the galactic level? They sure have. Matter of fact, it's old hat and not unique to even them. The CIS, Rebel Alliance have, and I'm just sticking to movie canon here.
two, they're all gone
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Destroyed by who? Our favorite madwoman! Though I do of course understand why. The Transwarp Hubs are kaput.
Meanwhile, the Imperial Fleet or Republic Navy / Grand Army of the Republic, assemble massive forces and use hyperdrives to pick and choose where they strike. They are not restricted to "Transwarp Hubs" or other nonsense.
The militaries of Star Wars treat long ranged attacks across the galaxy like you would today by grabbing a couple of the guys, grab some gear, and go driving cross country.
Not so in Star Trek. They're despairing about going from one quadrant to another without growing old by the time they arrive there.
My character Tsin'xing
Q is all powerful, but it doesn't mean he will do much to help, if at all. In the end, no one wins. Because Q. Only Q.
Despite some inconsistencies Star Trek has a scientific basis while Star Wars takes the "think of a number and add a trillion zeros to it" approach.
both universes have board games with weapons damage and range of weapons
star trek...range 240,000 km with phasers
star wars under 10,000 km
damage about equal
no contest
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse