In a universe dominated by the idea of "old knowledge is best knowledge", I could see a Jedi physician, some ten thousand years ago or so, noting the correlation between strength in the Force and infestation by midichlorians and deciding this meant that midichlorians caused the Force. And then he records it in a holochron, and forever after it's part of Jedi thinking. (Remember that this is a group so hidebound that when their librarian was asked about a system she was unfamiliar with, she declared that if it wasn't in the database then it didn't exist.)
After all, if midichlorians caused the Force, why not culture them in a lab, shoot Windu and Yoda up with a dose, and use their new super-Jedi power to blow right through the Dark Side veil?
You don't get to choose which part of canon to accept or not, unfortunately. Yes, the bacteria thing was horrible and completely unnecessary, but it was still in the movies. :P
Or maybe it was used to show religious fanaticism believing in crazy things. The movies just has one member of a religious order tell us what midichlorians are and they just leave it at that. So it just shows midichlorians as what the Jedi believe them to be not what they are. There is no secondary source in the movies to back up the idea that bacteria causes the Force.
In a universe dominated by the idea of "old knowledge is best knowledge", I could see a Jedi physician, some ten thousand years ago or so, noting the correlation between strength in the Force and infestation by midichlorians and deciding this meant that midichlorians caused the Force. And then he records it in a holochron, and forever after it's part of Jedi thinking. (Remember that this is a group so hidebound that when their librarian was asked about a system she was unfamiliar with, she declared that if it wasn't in the database then it didn't exist.)
After all, if midichlorians caused the Force, why not culture them in a lab, shoot Windu and Yoda up with a dose, and use their new super-Jedi power to blow right through the Dark Side veil?
Similarly, why didn't the Emperor simply use poor old Annie as a means to culture midi-chlorians and inject them into himself. With such limited "scientific" justification of most of the Star Wars universe, we are stuck with taking things as they were stated, meaning that the midi-chlorians were themselves a microbial collective species that pervaded and enabled all life in the Star Wars universe, in addition to enabling the use of the Force. Force-capable individuals had the combination of high midi-chlorian levels and the ability to "hear" them, meaning that adding more midi-chlorians might not necessarily increase power since you may or may not be capable of appealing to them for that power. Plus, would the individual's body be capable of supporting that many midi-chlorians, what adverse effects would over-leveling create, would you remain you if you infused your body with more of them, are the midi-chlorians that enable your own life compatible with midi-chlorians from other life forms, and so forth?
Trying to argue over extraneous implications of midi-chlorians is like trying to bring Gary Mitchell into the fray... let's stick to what's actually shown on-screen and might be plausible within the timeframes specified. :P
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
In a universe dominated by the idea of "old knowledge is best knowledge", I could see a Jedi physician, some ten thousand years ago or so, noting the correlation between strength in the Force and infestation by midichlorians and deciding this meant that midichlorians caused the Force. And then he records it in a holochron, and forever after it's part of Jedi thinking. (Remember that this is a group so hidebound that when their librarian was asked about a system she was unfamiliar with, she declared that if it wasn't in the database then it didn't exist.)
After all, if midichlorians caused the Force, why not culture them in a lab, shoot Windu and Yoda up with a dose, and use their new super-Jedi power to blow right through the Dark Side veil?
Also, there's that line from, I think it was Oni Wan, "Many of the things we hold as truths are only true when looked at froma certain point of view."
the economic edge goes to star trek:
a death star is 75 miles in diameter vs. dyson sphere 93,000,000 miles in diameter. That's like comparing a dime (0.75'') to a 14.678 mile long road. *note that the dyson sphere is hollow.
The biggest thing going for star wars is that they have a unified galaxy at their disposal. But since it's an all out battle, that would assume that all of trek would be on the same side.
Not sure if star wars could even reach the milky way whereas star trek had individuals and civilizations that could travel to other galaxies so I'm picturing a boxing match that in which one opponent has no arms.
Comparing a large scale battle trek has the upper hand. between planet killers, doomsday device, the continuum knocking out solar systems with supernova's without really trying, I'd say trek has more big guns.
A ground battle would be closer but trek has too many non corporeal species and species that are just too OP. For example the Zalkonians, Scalosians, and even the slapstick Brekkians and Ornarans would have major advantages over star wars units. Star wars has individuals that are important whereas trek has entire civilizations that would be major factors.
the economic edge goes to star trek:
a death star is 75 miles in diameter vs. dyson sphere 93,000,000 miles in diameter. That's like comparing a dime (0.75'') to a 14.678 mile long road. *note that the dyson sphere is hollow.
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
the economic edge goes to star trek:
a death star is 75 miles in diameter vs. dyson sphere 93,000,000 miles in diameter. That's like comparing a dime (0.75'') to a 14.678 mile long road. *note that the dyson sphere is hollow.
The biggest thing going for star wars is that they have a unified galaxy at their disposal. But since it's an all out battle, that would assume that all of trek would be on the same side.
Not sure if star wars could even reach the milky way whereas star trek had individuals and civilizations that could travel to other galaxies so I'm picturing a boxing match that in which one opponent has no arms.
Comparing a large scale battle trek has the upper hand. between planet killers, doomsday device, the continuum knocking out solar systems with supernova's without really trying, I'd say trek has more big guns.
A ground battle would be closer but trek has too many non corporeal species and species that are just too OP. For example the Zalkonians, Scalosians, and even the slapstick Brekkians and Ornarans would have major advantages over star wars units. Star wars has individuals that are important whereas trek has entire civilizations that would be major factors.
In a ground battle I think the major players involved would be clones and stormtroopers (possibly Rakata too) fighting against starfleet officers, Jem'Hadar, Klingons, and Voth.
In a ground battle I think the major players involved would be clones and stormtroopers (possibly Rakata too) fighting against starfleet officers, Jem'Hadar, Klingons, and Voth.
SW has the edge there, they have heavy vehicles, in ST we've only seen a buggy with a phaser cannon, but if we use STO material, well, ST wins, voth battlesuits, turrets, portable auto-targeting mortars, personal shields, heavy combat armors, flying combat drones, subspace mines, rifles with teleporting bullets, vastly superior infantry weapons, infantry teleporting to unshielded locations, personal cloaking devices, replicators allowing to create supplies and weapons on the fly, essentially making ST nearly immune to siege tactics.
Both sides have the ability to destroy entire solar systems. The Federation/Romulans/Dominion can make trilithium torpedoes and launch from multiple vesselss. The Empire has the Sun Crusher which can destroy and survive solar systems.
Both have the ability to devastate a planet. Kirk's Enterprise could obliterate a planet (see Mirror Mirror) and 20 Cardie/Romulan vessels damaged the Founder's original homeword. The Death Star could literally destroys planets.
Both has technological strengths and weaknesses. Both have highly skilled warriors/assassins/leaders/etc.
Star Wars has the Force and its numerous Force Wielders of varying powers.
Star Wars has other weapons of mass destruction like Centerpoint Station, Darksaber, the Eye of Palpatine, Galaxy Gun, Eclipse Class Star Destroyers.
Star Trek has numerous races that show "god-like" powers: the Q Continuum, the Douwd, the race from Arena, the race from Spectre of the Gun, Trelane, the Prophets, the Pah-Wraiths.
Star Trek has other weapons of mass destruction including the Doomsday Machine, Nomad, and V'Ger.
Therefore it all boils down to these two questions: does Obi-Wan have the high ground and is Kirk's shirt ripped? If Obi-Wan has the high ground, the only possible way for Star Trek to win is to have ripped shirt Kirk take him on. Likewise, SW will fall to Trek if Kirk's shirt is ripped and Obi-Wan does not have the high ground.
SW has the edge there, they have heavy vehicles, in ST we've only seen a buggy with a phaser cannon, but if we use STO material, well, ST wins, voth battlesuits, turrets, portable auto-targeting mortars, personal shields, heavy combat armors, flying combat drones, subspace mines, rifles with teleporting bullets, vastly superior infantry weapons, infantry teleporting to unshielded locations, personal cloaking devices, replicators allowing to create supplies and weapons on the fly, essentially making ST nearly immune to siege tactics.
If we're bringing the MMOs into the fray...
STO kicks the TRIBBLE out of SWTOR in Space, SWTOR kicks the TRIBBLE out of STO on the Ground. STO wins at first because... SWTOR has to get to the Ground, can be beamed off of the Ground, or can have the Ground beamed away from or on top of them. SWTOR has better storytelling, though, which means that some lone hero/villain will survive and bring about the fall of STO. However, STO will use the Automated Adrenal Hypo and Medical Vanguard to keep coming back to troll SWTOR after it thought it had won, since the kill didn't count.
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
Therefore it all boils down to these two questions: does Obi-Wan have the high ground and is Kirk's shirt ripped? If Obi-Wan has the high ground, the only possible way for Star Trek to win is to have ripped shirt Kirk take him on. Likewise, SW will fall to Trek if Kirk's shirt is ripped and Obi-Wan does not have the high ground.
Pure. Simple. Logic
^ smartest thing anyone's said on this thread thus far.
SW has the edge there, they have heavy vehicles, in ST we've only seen a buggy with a phaser cannon, but if we use STO material, well, ST wins, voth battlesuits, turrets, portable auto-targeting mortars, personal shields, heavy combat armors, flying combat drones, subspace mines, rifles with teleporting bullets, vastly superior infantry weapons, infantry teleporting to unshielded locations, personal cloaking devices, replicators allowing to create supplies and weapons on the fly, essentially making ST nearly immune to siege tactics.
The enterprise's crew alone could beat star wars at a ground battle in just under 60 min.
It would go something like this: Geordi in the holodeck in the last 10 min of the show "Computer, create an opponent who can outfight and outwit a clone army" (referencing TNG "ship in a bottle") "Now Replicate one billion holo emitters."
The point is that star trek's tech is superior and could adapt to a ground battle.
Star Wars. You have to consider the scale of the major powers as shown in the movies alone.
The size and scale of the GALACTIC Republic or GALACTIC Empire. The size, scale, scope of fighting dispatching fleets, armies to fight across a galaxy's worth of territory.
Not to mention the speed, distance of travel capable of any spacefaring vessel in Star Wars. Canon-wise, VOY landing out in the Delta Quadrant would have taken ages to get home to the Alpha Quadrant. In Star Wars, trading vessels, passenger vessels, all sorts of non-combat vessels were traveling across the galaxy like we hop on a car to go to the mall or to take a long distance drive. Then you had the military. Dispatching battle fleets to fight in far flung places and not arrive there years and years later.
I'm not even talking about this whole Jedi / Sith Force bull****. I'm just sticking to the conventional means of fighting as done in the movies.
Star Trek vs Star Wars never ends well for Star Trek, and I say that as a fan of both.
Reminds of another related thread... Warhammer 40k vs Star Trek. Star Trek doesn't fare well in that either :cool: Not nice when entering Warp is the same as going into a dimension filled with demons, possession and the like. Star Trek dealing with the Warp of WH40k is like people dealing with the events of Event Horizon. All the space faring powers of WH40k lose ships in the Warp, a.k.a. "Hell." Yet nobody bats an eye. And that's before you start dealing with all the unfriendly political and military powers in WH40k. The death of millions and the loss of a planet is nothing. Nothing but a drop of water in a large bucket.
Anyways, the issue at the core of Star Trek vs A bunch of the IPs out there is scale. Against the massive scale of things as done by something like Star Wars, Trek will be buried.
I don't think so. Q could get punched in the face and it hurt him (He got Sisko'd). The Force is not an entity at all.
Do you really think Q was actually hurt? He was just toying with Sisko, just to test him out. Remember when Sisko said "I'm not Picard" and Q responded with "Indeed not. You're much easier to provoke." Q is non-corporeal anyway. Any form he takes is one of his own choosing.
Oh, let's not forget All Good Things. He literally bounces Picard through time just for kicks.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
And let's not forget, if we're talking about the entire ST vs. SW universes, Daniels alone could erase the entire Empire from existence. And don't tell me "this is ST as of the end of VOY," because that means nothing to a time traveler.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
With the Force we see limited telekinesis and some telepathy.
Q is for all intents and purposes omnipotent. Q can teleport himself or anything else, wherever he wants in space and time. He could turn the Emperor into a golden retriever if he wanted.
The real question is: would Q actively "protect" the Federation, or decide he likes the Dark Side? Or would he do nothing at all and just spectate?
SW ships can't turn while in hyperdrive; they are essentially moving in straight lines. Furthermore, they are unable to scan ahead to avoid dangers and must rely upon pre-programmed navigation data. They simply could not get around in our galaxy which would be foreign territory for them.
ST could absolutely take advantage of those weaknesses. We would have no problem navigating in their galaxy with our superior sensors. Furthermore we could track their fleet movements and lay waste to their fleets the instant they came out of hyperspace.
Also, I think people are overestimating the effectiveness of the hyperdrive. It takes full minutes to calculate a hyperspace jump and is inoperable in high-G locations (not expressly mentioned in the films, but it is generally accepted in SW canon, which covers more than just the films). While the Empire would be able to choose where they attacked Starfleet, Starfleet can use Graviton bursts (as Kor did to save Martok's Squadron in an episode of DS9) to force the Empire out of hyperspace or to create areas where the Empire cannot use hyperdrive. Warfare involves strategic guile, not just speed. Also, once at sublight, Starfleet can prevent the Empire from withdrawing for at least a few minutes. Using ambush tactics, Starfleet can actually tip the initiative more in their favour.
The Kazon would move into the fight and their leader would plop his dirty butt right on the Emperor's throne before getting killed by dark honor guards/imperial guards while the Talaxians would give all imperial personnel food poisoning.
Comments
I could see that being a popular item.
FORCE STEROIDS! GET YOUS NOW!
Or maybe it was used to show religious fanaticism believing in crazy things. The movies just has one member of a religious order tell us what midichlorians are and they just leave it at that. So it just shows midichlorians as what the Jedi believe them to be not what they are. There is no secondary source in the movies to back up the idea that bacteria causes the Force.
Similarly, why didn't the Emperor simply use poor old Annie as a means to culture midi-chlorians and inject them into himself. With such limited "scientific" justification of most of the Star Wars universe, we are stuck with taking things as they were stated, meaning that the midi-chlorians were themselves a microbial collective species that pervaded and enabled all life in the Star Wars universe, in addition to enabling the use of the Force. Force-capable individuals had the combination of high midi-chlorian levels and the ability to "hear" them, meaning that adding more midi-chlorians might not necessarily increase power since you may or may not be capable of appealing to them for that power. Plus, would the individual's body be capable of supporting that many midi-chlorians, what adverse effects would over-leveling create, would you remain you if you infused your body with more of them, are the midi-chlorians that enable your own life compatible with midi-chlorians from other life forms, and so forth?
Trying to argue over extraneous implications of midi-chlorians is like trying to bring Gary Mitchell into the fray... let's stick to what's actually shown on-screen and might be plausible within the timeframes specified. :P
My character Tsin'xing
the economic edge goes to star trek:
a death star is 75 miles in diameter vs. dyson sphere 93,000,000 miles in diameter. That's like comparing a dime (0.75'') to a 14.678 mile long road. *note that the dyson sphere is hollow.
The biggest thing going for star wars is that they have a unified galaxy at their disposal. But since it's an all out battle, that would assume that all of trek would be on the same side.
Not sure if star wars could even reach the milky way whereas star trek had individuals and civilizations that could travel to other galaxies so I'm picturing a boxing match that in which one opponent has no arms.
Comparing a large scale battle trek has the upper hand. between planet killers, doomsday device, the continuum knocking out solar systems with supernova's without really trying, I'd say trek has more big guns.
A ground battle would be closer but trek has too many non corporeal species and species that are just too OP. For example the Zalkonians, Scalosians, and even the slapstick Brekkians and Ornarans would have major advantages over star wars units. Star wars has individuals that are important whereas trek has entire civilizations that would be major factors.
Thanks. That brought this song to mind...
In a ground battle I think the major players involved would be clones and stormtroopers (possibly Rakata too) fighting against starfleet officers, Jem'Hadar, Klingons, and Voth.
An actual more detailed post will be coming later, but I don't have time for that now.
SW has the edge there, they have heavy vehicles, in ST we've only seen a buggy with a phaser cannon, but if we use STO material, well, ST wins, voth battlesuits, turrets, portable auto-targeting mortars, personal shields, heavy combat armors, flying combat drones, subspace mines, rifles with teleporting bullets, vastly superior infantry weapons, infantry teleporting to unshielded locations, personal cloaking devices, replicators allowing to create supplies and weapons on the fly, essentially making ST nearly immune to siege tactics.
Both sides have the ability to destroy entire solar systems. The Federation/Romulans/Dominion can make trilithium torpedoes and launch from multiple vesselss. The Empire has the Sun Crusher which can destroy and survive solar systems.
Both have the ability to devastate a planet. Kirk's Enterprise could obliterate a planet (see Mirror Mirror) and 20 Cardie/Romulan vessels damaged the Founder's original homeword. The Death Star could literally destroys planets.
Both has technological strengths and weaknesses. Both have highly skilled warriors/assassins/leaders/etc.
Star Wars has the Force and its numerous Force Wielders of varying powers.
Star Wars has other weapons of mass destruction like Centerpoint Station, Darksaber, the Eye of Palpatine, Galaxy Gun, Eclipse Class Star Destroyers.
Star Trek has numerous races that show "god-like" powers: the Q Continuum, the Douwd, the race from Arena, the race from Spectre of the Gun, Trelane, the Prophets, the Pah-Wraiths.
Star Trek has other weapons of mass destruction including the Doomsday Machine, Nomad, and V'Ger.
Therefore it all boils down to these two questions: does Obi-Wan have the high ground and is Kirk's shirt ripped? If Obi-Wan has the high ground, the only possible way for Star Trek to win is to have ripped shirt Kirk take him on. Likewise, SW will fall to Trek if Kirk's shirt is ripped and Obi-Wan does not have the high ground.
Pure. Simple. Logic
If we're bringing the MMOs into the fray...
STO kicks the TRIBBLE out of SWTOR in Space, SWTOR kicks the TRIBBLE out of STO on the Ground. STO wins at first because... SWTOR has to get to the Ground, can be beamed off of the Ground, or can have the Ground beamed away from or on top of them. SWTOR has better storytelling, though, which means that some lone hero/villain will survive and bring about the fall of STO. However, STO will use the Automated Adrenal Hypo and Medical Vanguard to keep coming back to troll SWTOR after it thought it had won, since the kill didn't count.
:P
^ smartest thing anyone's said on this thread thus far.
The enterprise's crew alone could beat star wars at a ground battle in just under 60 min.
It would go something like this: Geordi in the holodeck in the last 10 min of the show "Computer, create an opponent who can outfight and outwit a clone army" (referencing TNG "ship in a bottle") "Now Replicate one billion holo emitters."
The point is that star trek's tech is superior and could adapt to a ground battle.
The size and scale of the GALACTIC Republic or GALACTIC Empire. The size, scale, scope of fighting dispatching fleets, armies to fight across a galaxy's worth of territory.
Not to mention the speed, distance of travel capable of any spacefaring vessel in Star Wars. Canon-wise, VOY landing out in the Delta Quadrant would have taken ages to get home to the Alpha Quadrant. In Star Wars, trading vessels, passenger vessels, all sorts of non-combat vessels were traveling across the galaxy like we hop on a car to go to the mall or to take a long distance drive. Then you had the military. Dispatching battle fleets to fight in far flung places and not arrive there years and years later.
I'm not even talking about this whole Jedi / Sith Force bull****. I'm just sticking to the conventional means of fighting as done in the movies.
Star Trek vs Star Wars never ends well for Star Trek, and I say that as a fan of both.
Reminds of another related thread... Warhammer 40k vs Star Trek. Star Trek doesn't fare well in that either :cool: Not nice when entering Warp is the same as going into a dimension filled with demons, possession and the like. Star Trek dealing with the Warp of WH40k is like people dealing with the events of Event Horizon. All the space faring powers of WH40k lose ships in the Warp, a.k.a. "Hell." Yet nobody bats an eye. And that's before you start dealing with all the unfriendly political and military powers in WH40k. The death of millions and the loss of a planet is nothing. Nothing but a drop of water in a large bucket.
Anyways, the issue at the core of Star Trek vs A bunch of the IPs out there is scale. Against the massive scale of things as done by something like Star Wars, Trek will be buried.
On the ground, Trek wins against the Empire but is slaughtered by the Republic.
However, this discounts Q. The moment Q tires of the Sith, Trek wins by Q-fault.
Not if "The Force" has anything to say about it
The Force is Star Wars' "Get out of Jail Card" or make-whatever-bull****-you-want to have an outcome you want factor.
But Q is God. Q can do exactly whatever Q pleases.
The Force balances things
Q is more powerful than the Force.
I don't think so. Q could get punched in the face and it hurt him (He got Sisko'd). The Force is not an entity at all.
1. Q is unknowable, and therefore we cannot know if he was actually harmed by that punch at all.
2. The Sisko is of Bajor. The Prophets alone have Force-trumping power. And they are only in the same ballpark as the Q.
Do you really think Q was actually hurt? He was just toying with Sisko, just to test him out. Remember when Sisko said "I'm not Picard" and Q responded with "Indeed not. You're much easier to provoke." Q is non-corporeal anyway. Any form he takes is one of his own choosing.
Oh, let's not forget All Good Things. He literally bounces Picard through time just for kicks.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
Q is for all intents and purposes omnipotent. Q can teleport himself or anything else, wherever he wants in space and time. He could turn the Emperor into a golden retriever if he wanted.
The real question is: would Q actively "protect" the Federation, or decide he likes the Dark Side? Or would he do nothing at all and just spectate?
SW ships can't turn while in hyperdrive; they are essentially moving in straight lines. Furthermore, they are unable to scan ahead to avoid dangers and must rely upon pre-programmed navigation data. They simply could not get around in our galaxy which would be foreign territory for them.
ST could absolutely take advantage of those weaknesses. We would have no problem navigating in their galaxy with our superior sensors. Furthermore we could track their fleet movements and lay waste to their fleets the instant they came out of hyperspace.
And Q off-sets the balance:cool:. Then the Jem'Hadar shroud and start jumping on and punching stormtroopers before they know what's going on.
Also, I think people are overestimating the effectiveness of the hyperdrive. It takes full minutes to calculate a hyperspace jump and is inoperable in high-G locations (not expressly mentioned in the films, but it is generally accepted in SW canon, which covers more than just the films). While the Empire would be able to choose where they attacked Starfleet, Starfleet can use Graviton bursts (as Kor did to save Martok's Squadron in an episode of DS9) to force the Empire out of hyperspace or to create areas where the Empire cannot use hyperdrive. Warfare involves strategic guile, not just speed. Also, once at sublight, Starfleet can prevent the Empire from withdrawing for at least a few minutes. Using ambush tactics, Starfleet can actually tip the initiative more in their favour.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood