We can't blame moderators for the rules they are forced to uphold....
That isn't entirely true, by agreeing to become a moderator they did make an informed decision to uphold those rules, and they could quit at any time so to be quite honest you can blame them from that perspective, as they aren't forced to enforce those rules, they choose to.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
In mandarin it is called "hexie" and means "harmony." In the People's Republic the Internet is censored, what they call "harmonizing."
Make no mistake, this is not a forum for criticizing the game or the developers, this is a forum for discussing why we enjoy it, for learning to appreciate the developers vision, etc.
Your sig made me giggle. Are you one of his FTP alts?
It's simple. Don't rage, don't insult people, neither developers, moderators, nor players, don't name and shame... Basically read the forum rules.
You can report bugs, you can report problems, you can complain you don't like something. You can also say what you like, why you like it, what you would like to have. But don't violate the forum rules, and it's unwise/discouraged to open up threads that, from experience, always end up with forum rules violations (see the FCT thread for that.).
Anyone that sees rampant closure of critical thread seems to have a special perception filter that blends out most threads on this forum.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
They do not care what we think, here is a quote of the link you supplied:
They clearly have NOT listened (they have never even bothered to listen to feedback from tribble - people using their own time to help clean the devs bugs up) and it is clear from the above post, that the developers do not see the players as the people who should decide how the game runs (you know... the people who pay their wages and keep the servers running...), they simply see the idea of creating a game that the players want, as some kind of foreign novel idea.
Kickstarter funding has shown that the biggest and best games are made when people are involved in the game making process, making a game for the people who pay for it, rather than to stroke the dev's own ego about what 'they' think would be best.
Its clear that what the devs want and what the players want are polar opposites (particularly of late). And they would do well to remember, that it is the players who pay for the game - no players - no game - no job.
I think you are missing a few important facts:
Cryptic has a contract with CBS. There are things they can do, and things they can't do. The players, not being privy to that contract, will ask for things that cannot be provided, and then grouse when they don't get it. Barking at Cryptic is useless--as is barking at CBS.
Pure democracy = anarchy. Creating the game that the players want (because, face it, what players really want is 80,000 dilithium a day for free, a T-6 Connie, with a clown and a pony, and candy as the main course for every meal) is not--and has never been--a good idea. Of course, the statement itself assumes that there's a concensus of opinion at all. I suspect the aggregate of expressed desires is as muddy as the intellects of the majority of folks who post here. (I can count the number of people on the forums whom I actually respect intellectually on the fingers of one tentacle.) Someone has to be the Dad--and the designers at Cryptic are filling that role. Don't like it? Go play somewhere else. Playing the game is not a right--so stop acting like it is. "The players should determine how the game is played" is only slightly off to one side of "the workers control the means of production." Neither statement is true, nor useful.
Thinking you know more about something than the people who do it for a living (when you don't do it for a living) is the merry road to Hell. Who's stroking an ego here?
Kickstarter funding has shown that the biggest and best games are made when people are involved in the game making process.... Numbers, or it didn't happen. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof (thanks, Carl). I'm not saying you don't have proof--but that's a pretty brave statement, and you didn't follow up with examples.
No, not every player gets on the forums, but a lot do.
Actually, that's a big misconception in MMOs. Usually, the forum population is less than 10%, often less than 5% of the playerbase. So, there is no 'speaking for the majority' on the forums.
Did it ever occur to any of you that perhaps the reason they say it's been the best expansion ever for them is that it has been for them, from other sources of feedback, including financial? Just because you and your circle of friends hate it doesn't mean it's that way for everyone else.
I have issues with it as well, maybe not the same ones, but, I'm not going to come on here and rant for hours about it, when I could instead be playing STO. If I was so unhappy that I couldn't stand to log in to STO, I certainly wouldn't spend my time here. I'd be playing something else.
No, this forum has become an echo chamber of the same people ranting about the same things day after day, not understanding that they are NOT the majority, and they are NOT necessarily speaking for anyone past themselves and their friends.
There are other reasons to log into the forum than the game--I would not be so quick to dismiss the real friendships made among some here, or the creative work communities like the Foundry and fanfic authors. So whatever my discontents with the game, *it is the people* that keeps me logging back in, not because I get my jollies off of complaining. I am sure there are many others who feel the same. I WANT to see things get better, not continue to get worse, so the communities I have become a part of through STO are not threatened any further.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
the developer axiom is 'ignore what they say and watch what they do'
if you want to submit feedback you know they will take on board, stop buying zen and stop logging in.
Now on to the problem here, how do you expect Customers and Free to play members of this game to discuss whats wrong here? We post problems we see, we try and talk about it, of course there will be some that have major issues, some minor, but I have seen a lot of threads closed, locked, subjected to Moderation when the community has been discussing serious problems.
I have been here since launch, I am what by very definition you call a "whale" I spend hundreds on this game every month, I enjoy it, I have always been happy to do so because its been a fun experience. I pay for my fleets website, our voice comms, and I have always stated that we should look past any faults and just have fun.
The further we have gotten past DR's launch though the harder it has become to do this. I ask questions on the forums, I talk, I have never EVER posted a doom message or anything even close to it, yet more and more it feels as if we as a community playing this game have been met with more and more of what we are not allowed to discuss http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1162461
So how do you want it Cryptic, how do you Moderaters wish us to discuss it, are we supposed to talk about nothing but happy thoughts? Are we not to discuss when we feel something is very, VERY, wrong with a system we as gamers are supposed to enjoy? Before anyone comes out swinging to the defense understand I am including people that have a problem with the current end game of things, not anyone that only see's rainbows and sunshine here at PWE.
So please let us know, be straight and tell us just how we are supposed to communicate the problems we see without threads being locked, erased, moved, or buried so no one ever has to see them.
I think you will find many members that use these forums to be adult, even if some are not, and will get with whatever it is that you expect of us, just tell us how you want it and we will get to it, because MOST of us are here to play and enjoy the game, and many don't see that working under the current conditions set forth by the powers that be.
Stone_Loki
SSO Founder and Fleet Leader
One of the few left from launch
From a mod standpoint? Simple.
Don't post things that are part of the F.C.T
Don't post things that violate the forum rules.
We're golden at that point. It's not like we want to go around closing threads like we have some sort of quota to meet. If no mod's were necessary I'd be a happy duck. But that's not how reality is so here we are.
Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care. Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker. Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
Actually, that's a big misconception in MMOs. Usually, the forum population is less than 10%, often less than 5% of the playerbase. So, there is no 'speaking for the majority' on the forums.
Did it ever occur to any of you that perhaps the reason they say it's been the best expansion ever for them is that it has been for them, from other sources of feedback, including financial? Just because you and your circle of friends hate it doesn't mean it's that way for everyone else.
I have issues with it as well, maybe not the same ones, but, I'm not going to come on here and rant for hours about it, when I could instead be playing STO. If I was so unhappy that I couldn't stand to log in to STO, I certainly wouldn't spend my time here. I'd be playing something else.
No, this forum has become an echo chamber of the same people ranting about the same things day after day, not understanding that they are NOT the majority, and they are NOT necessarily speaking for anyone past themselves and their friends.
And I hear 57.89% of all internet statistics are invented.
Did it occur to you that any highway robber could claim the same?
Take your own advice and play instead of cheerleading on the forums.
So where is your "silent" majority? It is certainly not in ques, in pve, pvp and Delta Quadrant is rather empty. Do enlighten me, since you obviously know better than us dirty complainers.
Can't risk the Chinese overlords learning that the players aren't as happy as Cryptic are telling them
For starters, these kinds of comments = bad
You have to understand that making statements like this IS NOT OK
Keep statements like this out of your response, and you are much more likely to get a response. Setting up a precedent like this and making people think this is ok will not lead to a better game or a better community. It leads to anger, insults, and frustration on both ends.
You have to understand that making statements like this IS NOT OK
Keep statements like this out of your response, and you are much more likely to get a response. Setting up a precedent like this and making people think this is ok will not lead to a better game or a better community. It leads to anger, insults, and frustration on both ends.
It is not funny and it is not justifiable.
~CaptainSmirk
Well actually, this is the first response I have seen in a while, directly to a baseless insult, so I'm not sure that
Keep statements like this out of your response, and you are much more likely to get a response.
is an effective strategy for dev-community interaction anymore; I'm close to thinking one does not exist.
First let me thank Askray and Smirk for giving a response, which neither of them had to do here at all.
Most of us understand not to go about posting about over lords or any racial comments that are not needed. Most of us are adults and understand that this sort of behavior isn't ok in the least.
Many of us that do post on the forums simply want clarification, and when we can't get that its difficult not to wonder why on earth we can't. People feel strongly about a lot of this, we have spent a great deal of time, and some of us have spent a great deal of money on this game. That being said I don't expect anything to be done my way, I'm a customer and I really want, as well as a lot of others, is to enjoy the product we continue to support and play.
If you tried to do everything everyone wanted it would never work because no one wants the exact same thing. What many of us do want though is enjoyment, enjoying the game we love so much, and that has everything to do with trekking amongst the stars with our friends.
I will not walk away from that, I won't throw it away because that's all that matters to me in this game is enjoying it with friends, fleet mates, and new people we meet that are wanting the same thing.
A few threads I posted in recently were locked, disappeared, or moved, and I understand more that this has to do with a few bad eggs, rather than the basket.
Thank you both for responding, and for showing the community that it isn't all about making any group or groups silent, and that you are indeed listening.
For those saying that they don't listen... you seem to be under the impression that 'listening' = 'will be doing'
Well, reality check, 'listening' is not a guarantee that they will do something. It just means they're read the idea, will think about it (even discuss it seriously among the dev crew), then decide one way or the other. Not doing it doesn't mean they didn't consider it
And considering the dev response in this very thread (thank you guys, btw), there's very little credibility in saying that they don't read the forums period, or that they don't listen. Plus, saying such things as that gets no one anywhere.
And as stated, mods are not devs (or even paid), and just work with the rule guidelines as they see fit
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
That isn't entirely true, by agreeing to become a moderator they did make an informed decision to uphold those rules, and they could quit at any time so to be quite honest you can blame them from that perspective, as they aren't forced to enforce those rules, they choose to.
That statement is true that mods made a choice to work hard and become a part of our community required to uphold and enforce the rules, as it is also true for all members of this forum who agreed to abide by the TOS when joining, as well as the forms of moderation currently in use. Which does include the power to grant to those mods the ability to close threads, hand out warnings, infractions and bans.
Trying to "blame" each other however is not a worthwhile pursuit and should be avoided. We are not hear to blame anyone or tear each other down, despite what some see as "normal" behavior here.
What is best is to try to see both sides of the story and try to realize that we want players to be able to come to our forums to talk about all aspects of STO without fear of retaliation.
In order to do so, we need your help to make sure things do not become too adversarial for anyone. Be good to each other, and that is the best way to show that you enjoy Star Trek.
What is best is to try to see both sides of the story and try to realize that we want players to be able to come to our forums to talk about all aspects of STO without fear of retaliation.
In order to do so, we need your help to make sure things do not become too adversarial for anyone. Be good to each other, and that is the best way to show that you enjoy Star Trek.
Perhaps Cryptic could follow that advice. Ocassionally.
Space the final frontier. These are the voyages of [your name here] on a five year mission to gain one level after the delta rising xp nerf.
You have to understand that making statements like this IS NOT OK
Keep statements like this out of your response, and you are much more likely to get a response. Setting up a precedent like this and making people think this is ok will not lead to a better game or a better community. It leads to anger, insults, and frustration on both ends.
It is not funny and it is not justifiable.
~CaptainSmirk
I got a bit far sometimes but I know where the line is (most of the time anyways).
I will give you this to contemplate or rather for anyone who cares/has pride in their work Now there are those that will complain no matter what you do and then there are those that complain when the developer seems out of line. Now what is happening is these people have gotten to the point where they do not know how to talk to the company or get the message across that the last few season 7 thru DR have kind of left them unsatisfied(I lost a lot of friends especially due to Season 7 and then the mail thing made them not show up since then).
So what is happening is with communication silence, inadequate information as in content hitting the game before it ever hits the website, and then extreme grinds that we would find in games made to be played by those who like that sort of thing which usually isn't us. So I will outline the rage in some simple to understand universal terms.
1. Player logs in and wants to have fun.
1a. Must do doffing/dilithium, rep, crafting, other currency, and skill point grinds before getting to the fun part.
2. After usually a good chunk of time the player wants to go have fun and do some missions in the que. Well player says i'm no novice and do not want the chump change reward on normal. So they go on advanced and elite and because someone didn't bring a dps ship to the dps race they all fail. Then player goes from insulting a certain dev, to the whole cryptic company, to pwe, to oh lets insult their country now too.
3. The doomsayers and the excited usual happy customers views and statements are just colliding into a big giant fail ball of doom. Infractions are thrown out but then they take it viral anywhere they can post which it doesn't make it really look bad on them because its the truth plus no one knows player jim bob johnson but they do know of pwe and cryptic and when you get thousands of people saying they don't like something than it is true they are so out of touch with their community that their loyal players like me for example I average about maybe 2 minutes a day on STO compared to the hours I used to spend because the game is just boring and broken right now. As well I am accustomed to the fact that the game will be broken from November to February but I can agree with just about everyone that it is not acceptable at this point.
4. The last thing I will mention that is at the core of the trouble with company versus players is that marketing tactics and such are always geared to finding the next player base. Each and every year it is basically like everyones stuff gets rolled back and some players will stick around and re-gear themselves back to what they had the year prior to that. Then the real problem is most decisions are made and implemented where its obvious the changes were made not valuing the loyal customer/player. It is kind of like any company really in the end you are paying way more money in training new employees when keeping the trained and loyal employees happy. I understand though that PWE is a business but no matter what is told to them about how much we like what is being done... they will see when they do their quarterly and annual profits and see that its not making nearly what it used to be making.
That isn't entirely true, by agreeing to become a moderator they did make an informed decision to uphold those rules, and they could quit at any time so to be quite honest you can blame them from that perspective, as they aren't forced to enforce those rules, they choose to.
Now you're just being silly.
Besides, the forum rules, enforced by mods, should never be subject to dispute or 'blame' to begin with, as you chose to abide by said rules when you signed up here.
Although we are actually not allowed to discuss (specific) moderation, overall I'm fine with the way they do it.
To try and answer your question, the best way you can help to post feedback and continue to work with your fleetmates to keep things moving forward for the betterment of STO, I recommend the following.
Your OP is well written and not inflammatory at all, IMO. Keep writing like that. It is a clear and concise question and shows that you want to work with staff, mods and devs alike, to work to better STO for all.
Bravo and my thanks for wanting to do so.
Best thing any member of our forum can do is learn the TOS and the layout of these forums to help keep reports and discussion in the right locations, and with the right intentions. To build up, not to tear down.
Bug Reports go to the Gameplay Bug Reports section, not General Discussion, etc. If you post in the wrong area, your message may get lost in a sea of other posts.
In-game issues affecting your account are best handled with tickets and the Support page. As well as issues that are only happening in-game, such as chat violations (make sure these are reported via in-game ticket with date & time so our CS team can view chat logs). Be patient and descriptive when submitting these tickets as they are handled by a staff other then who handles the forums.
Try your best to focus your discussion and not attack. Especially not the staff members trying to help, or a staff member who has nothing to do with the issue at hand. For instance the last week has seen a lot of discontent over bugs directed at TacoFangs who works in Environment Design. That is not going to lead to a fix, and will only result in potentially alienating a friendly and caring dev who enjoys interacting with the players.
Keep things civil. Don't hurl insults or slurs. At staff or other Forum users. Don't blame a culture or group for something that has no basis in such an accusation. Don't attack in order to be heard.
Remember that every situation is as different as every game out there. What worked in WoW doesn't work in SWTOR.
Also remember that the various staff members who work on STO do love Star Trek, myself included, and many of us played STO before we worked here. This forum is a prime example of the many varied and nuanced views and versions of what it means to be a Star Trek fan. Not all of us love it for the same reason, or look at the history of the franchise in exactly the same way.
Variety is the spice of life, and that is what makes Star Trek so appealing. It is literally a representation of a Universe full of IDIC (Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations) and STO pools all of these franchise branches into one cohesive pace for us all to get together to enjoy them, together.
It is fine to not like something, in-game or out. It is fine to state that. Where we have to draw a line is when that difference in taste or of opinion is turned into a weapon to attack those who like something someone else dislikes.
We value player feedback and we want to hear from our players, all of them. We simply ask you to help us work together, not condemn each other for wanting different things, or our teammates for doing their jobs to the best of their abilities.
As we approach the holiday season, let's work to make things better for all of us here in the STO Forums, and in-game.
You have to understand that making statements like this IS NOT OK
Keep statements like this out of your response, and you are much more likely to get a response. Setting up a precedent like this and making people think this is ok will not lead to a better game or a better community. It leads to anger, insults, and frustration on both ends.
It is not funny and it is not justifiable.
~CaptainSmirk
especially as the company's nationality does not matter, since the model followed, is the economic Western model. Indian companies or african companies follow also the same models.
we are also responsible for the current game status, because we as customers still buy stuff.
I'll say this to PWECaptainSmirk (not the best name for customer service).
Until DR I hadn't made a forum post in so long I had to recreate my forum account just to post. I spent a tonne of money in the last year onj STO and this last XP nerf was the final straw. I've bought zen to buy dil to upgrade ships, bought dil to use the new upgrade system, bought keys and ships, wastched ships and upgrades become obsolete within a couple of months of buying them.
The arrogance and ignorance of Cryptic/PWE in the last two months has pushed me to the brink. Bugs that were so bad and so amateur they could not have been missed in testing, and yes I'm a professional programmer. Game crippling bugs part of "the most successful release evah!", players being blamed for playing the game and called exploiters, punitive action taken against those people that spilled over onto people who weren't involved. Denials, denials, denials followed by vague admissions people were right(but not in so many words).
I just can't get my head around it. Does your company HATE your customers? Do you think we are stupid? Because I can assure you we as a general rule are not. How much do you think the user base will take of Cryptic blaming it's customers and treating them like idiots before you don't have customers?
Space the final frontier. These are the voyages of [your name here] on a five year mission to gain one level after the delta rising xp nerf.
Thanks again Smirk for giving us info that is useful and can indeed help everyone keep on track while also showing everyone that you all indeed are listening and here to help.
I think that is the biggest issue many of us has had recently is a feeling that all this was being shouted on deft ears which it is clearly not. Many people may walk away, many will stay, not because we can't but because we don't walk away from the friends and people that are like family to us in this game.
That to me is what this game, and the community in it, is all about. Not endless grinds, not who has the best gear or builds, not a mad quest to see who can do a STF faster than anyone else, but the friends and comrades we all make here. To know that you all are looking at all this, and indeed listening I feel brings us all some much needed hope that you see that as well.
IDIC is the very principle our fleet is founded on, no one left behind is another, and to see that quote you made does indeed raise my spirit and give me some hope that this is what this game will continue to stand for.
Call me a softy or whatever, but that's exactly what I was wanting to know, and you all have answered.
Thank you Askray and Smirk for taking the time, people can comment that its your job but you never had to address this, yet you took some time and did so again thank you.
I'll say this to PWECaptainSmirk (not the best name for customer service).
Until DR I hadn't made a forum post in so long I had to recreate my forum account just to post. I spent a tonne of money in the last year onj STO and this last XP nerf was the final straw. I've bought zen to buy dil to upgrade ships, bought dil to use the new upgrade system, bought keys and ships, wastched ships and upgrades become obsolete within a couple of months of buying them.
The arrogance and ignorance of Cryptic/PWE in the last two months has pushed me to the brink. Bugs that were so bad and so amateur they could not have been missed in testing, and yes I'm a professional programmer. Game crippling bugs part of "the most successful release evah!", players being blamed for playing the game and called exploiters, punitive action taken against those people that spilled over onto people who weren't involved. Denials, denials, denials followed by vague admissions people were right(but not in so many words).
I just can't get my head around it. Does your company HATE your customers? Do you think we are stupid? Because I can assure you we as a general rule are not. How much do you think the user base will take of Cryptic blaming it's customers and treating them like idiots before you don't have customers?
I hope you realize statements like what I bolded is what Smirk was pointing out that doesn't work. If the devs truly hated us, do you think we would see any of them replying to us like Tacofangs does? I don't think we would.
I think I can put Smirk's message in a way that we can understand. The devs are willing to work with us if we can show them we can be civil and help them identify areas of the game we believe need to be fixed, without anger. Remember that there's only so much that they can get done within the time they have during the day.
I just got my next post out on my Delta Rising review...I really hope that the devs will take a look at the whole review (yes, I know I am writing a novelette), because I think it can add to constructive discussion and a comprehensive perspective.
Sorry to post here as well but since we are on the subject of how to make constructive contributions I wanted to let you know about what I am hoping is my best effort in that regard.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Trying to "blame" each other however is not a worthwhile pursuit and should be avoided. We are not hear to blame anyone or tear each other down, despite what some see as "normal" behavior here.
What is best is to try to see both sides of the story and try to realize that we want players to be able to come to our forums to talk about all aspects of STO without fear of retaliation.
Dang, Cryptic can use some of the same advice. The problem lies where Cryptic doesn't listen. There are mounds of information in the forums about the 'most successful launch' that aren't being tended to by anyone of the company you work for. No communication at all except complaining about others 'blaming each other'. Seriously? The next patch coming up has almost nothing to do with your customers not logging in. You express to us to come and talk on the forums but yet, nothing is getting done. We might as well be talking to a brick wall, it's just as effective. Good luck with your customer base. Cryptic is losing a lot of it.
Dang, Cryptic can use some of the same advice. The problem lies where Cryptic doesn't listen. There are mounds of information in the forums about the 'most successful launch' that aren't being tended to by anyone of the company you work for. No communication at all except complaining about others 'blaming each other'. Seriously? The next patch coming up has almost nothing to do with your customers not logging in. You express to us to come and talk on the forums but yet, nothing is getting done. We might as well be talking to a brick wall, it's just as effective. Good luck with your customer base. Cryptic is losing a lot of it.
I believe part of the problem may that, well, people equate listening with 'being worked on/will be done/etc' The problem with that is, listening is just that; not a guarantee that it will be done, or done the way it was thought to be, and so forth.
So when players blame the devs for not listening, they are doing so inaccurately and making fools of themselves, at least some of the time. The devs do read the forums, they do listen and consider feedback - but people seem to believe that because they did consider it, it's being done, than are angry at them that they turned around and did the opposite... when they never turned on the decision in the first place; just decided
So not all of the problem is with Cryptic; part of it is definitely this forum, and how they can't express their frustrations/concerns reasonably, at least imo
I'll say this to PWECaptainSmirk (not the best name for customer service).
Until DR I hadn't made a forum post in so long I had to recreate my forum account just to post. I spent a tonne of money in the last year onj STO and this last XP nerf was the final straw. I've bought zen to buy dil to upgrade ships, bought dil to use the new upgrade system, bought keys and ships, wastched ships and upgrades become obsolete within a couple of months of buying them.
The arrogance and ignorance of Cryptic/PWE in the last two months has pushed me to the brink. Bugs that were so bad and so amateur they could not have been missed in testing, and yes I'm a professional programmer. Game crippling bugs part of "the most successful release evah!", players being blamed for playing the game and called exploiters, punitive action taken against those people that spilled over onto people who weren't involved. Denials, denials, denials followed by vague admissions people were right(but not in so many words).
I just can't get my head around it. Does your company HATE your customers? Do you think we are stupid? Because I can assure you we as a general rule are not. How much do you think the user base will take of Cryptic blaming it's customers and treating them like idiots before you don't have customers?
As vegeta50024 said, things like this are not the way to handle the situation (even if you think they're true - excessive honesty can be disastrous that way, to quote Picard). The talks must be reasonable, the arguments civil, and the reasoning clear and concise without insults/threats/accusations/hyperbole/etc etc anywhere down the line. Otherwise we get nowhere real fast, and only strain what is already here, no matter how it may look already
And as far as 'most successful release ever', that's the PR's job, to put a positive spin on things no matter what the reality; I've seen far bigger companies do the same that it's commonplace. Plus, playing the game and exploiting are different things between different people - to us, it may be playing to some, but it could be considered an exploit from their perspective (we have to consider that). Plus it's been well established by now that STO's bug hunting is priority-based, and fix-what-we-can-right-now, rather than obvious-first - and the release dates fixed no matter what (likely from higher up).
^Above paragraph is simply the reality of it all - and imo, there's no good reason to let our feelings get in the way
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
I hope you realize statements like what I bolded is what Smirk was pointing out that doesn't work. If the devs truly hated us, do you think we would see any of them replying to us like Tacofangs does? I don't think we would.
I think I can put Smirk's message in a way that we can understand. The devs are willing to work with us if we can show them we can be civil and help them identify areas of the game we believe need to be fixed, without anger. Remember that there's only so much that they can get done within the time they have during the day.
Interesting. Cryptic/pwe can blame the players, accuse people of cheating, put out a release with documented game breaking bugs BUT they will work with us if we can be civil?
Civility works both ways, you can't release vaguely worded letters accusing your players of cheating, and anyone who says they weren't of being a liar, and demand you be treated with respect and even deference.
You don't release software with documented game ruining bugs reported by players and ignored, and take four weeks to even try to fix them; and then tell players you are ready to work with them if they can identify problem areas without anger. All in the name of civility, old chap.
You don't demand communication when you give none. When people complain about it you set a timer to prevent people from posting more than once every 300 seconds. Communication also means HONESTY. Don't blow smoke like "DR is the most successful and trouble-free launch ever" , "players were using exploits" and a hundred other pieces of misinformation, or what many others would call lies, I can site since the DR release.
Yes, civility is a two way street. Some people could be nicer posting. Cryptic is first and foremost among those.
Space the final frontier. These are the voyages of [your name here] on a five year mission to gain one level after the delta rising xp nerf.
Comments
That isn't entirely true, by agreeing to become a moderator they did make an informed decision to uphold those rules, and they could quit at any time so to be quite honest you can blame them from that perspective, as they aren't forced to enforce those rules, they choose to.
Your sig made me giggle. Are you one of his FTP alts?
You can report bugs, you can report problems, you can complain you don't like something. You can also say what you like, why you like it, what you would like to have. But don't violate the forum rules, and it's unwise/discouraged to open up threads that, from experience, always end up with forum rules violations (see the FCT thread for that.).
Anyone that sees rampant closure of critical thread seems to have a special perception filter that blends out most threads on this forum.
I think you are missing a few important facts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlvS_Uk5yJM
....sorry mate, couldn't pass on the opportunity.
Actually, that's a big misconception in MMOs. Usually, the forum population is less than 10%, often less than 5% of the playerbase. So, there is no 'speaking for the majority' on the forums.
Did it ever occur to any of you that perhaps the reason they say it's been the best expansion ever for them is that it has been for them, from other sources of feedback, including financial? Just because you and your circle of friends hate it doesn't mean it's that way for everyone else.
I have issues with it as well, maybe not the same ones, but, I'm not going to come on here and rant for hours about it, when I could instead be playing STO. If I was so unhappy that I couldn't stand to log in to STO, I certainly wouldn't spend my time here. I'd be playing something else.
No, this forum has become an echo chamber of the same people ranting about the same things day after day, not understanding that they are NOT the majority, and they are NOT necessarily speaking for anyone past themselves and their friends.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
if you want to submit feedback you know they will take on board, stop buying zen and stop logging in.
free jkname
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Don't post things that are part of the F.C.T
Don't post things that violate the forum rules.
We're golden at that point. It's not like we want to go around closing threads like we have some sort of quota to meet. If no mod's were necessary I'd be a happy duck. But that's not how reality is so here we are.
Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
And I hear 57.89% of all internet statistics are invented.
Did it occur to you that any highway robber could claim the same?
Take your own advice and play instead of cheerleading on the forums.
So where is your "silent" majority? It is certainly not in ques, in pve, pvp and Delta Quadrant is rather empty. Do enlighten me, since you obviously know better than us dirty complainers.
For starters, these kinds of comments = bad
You have to understand that making statements like this IS NOT OK
Keep statements like this out of your response, and you are much more likely to get a response. Setting up a precedent like this and making people think this is ok will not lead to a better game or a better community. It leads to anger, insults, and frustration on both ends.
It is not funny and it is not justifiable.
~CaptainSmirk
Very nicely put.
Well actually, this is the first response I have seen in a while, directly to a baseless insult, so I'm not sure that is an effective strategy for dev-community interaction anymore; I'm close to thinking one does not exist.
Most of us understand not to go about posting about over lords or any racial comments that are not needed. Most of us are adults and understand that this sort of behavior isn't ok in the least.
Many of us that do post on the forums simply want clarification, and when we can't get that its difficult not to wonder why on earth we can't. People feel strongly about a lot of this, we have spent a great deal of time, and some of us have spent a great deal of money on this game. That being said I don't expect anything to be done my way, I'm a customer and I really want, as well as a lot of others, is to enjoy the product we continue to support and play.
If you tried to do everything everyone wanted it would never work because no one wants the exact same thing. What many of us do want though is enjoyment, enjoying the game we love so much, and that has everything to do with trekking amongst the stars with our friends.
I will not walk away from that, I won't throw it away because that's all that matters to me in this game is enjoying it with friends, fleet mates, and new people we meet that are wanting the same thing.
A few threads I posted in recently were locked, disappeared, or moved, and I understand more that this has to do with a few bad eggs, rather than the basket.
Thank you both for responding, and for showing the community that it isn't all about making any group or groups silent, and that you are indeed listening.
Stone_Loki
Well, reality check, 'listening' is not a guarantee that they will do something. It just means they're read the idea, will think about it (even discuss it seriously among the dev crew), then decide one way or the other. Not doing it doesn't mean they didn't consider it
And considering the dev response in this very thread (thank you guys, btw), there's very little credibility in saying that they don't read the forums period, or that they don't listen. Plus, saying such things as that gets no one anywhere.
And as stated, mods are not devs (or even paid), and just work with the rule guidelines as they see fit
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
That statement is true that mods made a choice to work hard and become a part of our community required to uphold and enforce the rules, as it is also true for all members of this forum who agreed to abide by the TOS when joining, as well as the forms of moderation currently in use. Which does include the power to grant to those mods the ability to close threads, hand out warnings, infractions and bans.
Trying to "blame" each other however is not a worthwhile pursuit and should be avoided. We are not hear to blame anyone or tear each other down, despite what some see as "normal" behavior here.
What is best is to try to see both sides of the story and try to realize that we want players to be able to come to our forums to talk about all aspects of STO without fear of retaliation.
In order to do so, we need your help to make sure things do not become too adversarial for anyone. Be good to each other, and that is the best way to show that you enjoy Star Trek.
Perhaps Cryptic could follow that advice. Ocassionally.
I got a bit far sometimes but I know where the line is (most of the time anyways).
I will give you this to contemplate or rather for anyone who cares/has pride in their work
So what is happening is with communication silence, inadequate information as in content hitting the game before it ever hits the website, and then extreme grinds that we would find in games made to be played by those who like that sort of thing which usually isn't us. So I will outline the rage in some simple to understand universal terms.
1. Player logs in and wants to have fun.
1a. Must do doffing/dilithium, rep, crafting, other currency, and skill point grinds before getting to the fun part.
2. After usually a good chunk of time the player wants to go have fun and do some missions in the que. Well player says i'm no novice and do not want the chump change reward on normal. So they go on advanced and elite and because someone didn't bring a dps ship to the dps race they all fail. Then player goes from insulting a certain dev, to the whole cryptic company, to pwe, to oh lets insult their country now too.
3. The doomsayers and the excited usual happy customers views and statements are just colliding into a big giant fail ball of doom. Infractions are thrown out but then they take it viral anywhere they can post which it doesn't make it really look bad on them because its the truth plus no one knows player jim bob johnson but they do know of pwe and cryptic and when you get thousands of people saying they don't like something than it is true they are so out of touch with their community that their loyal players like me for example I average about maybe 2 minutes a day on STO compared to the hours I used to spend because the game is just boring and broken right now. As well I am accustomed to the fact that the game will be broken from November to February but I can agree with just about everyone that it is not acceptable at this point.
4. The last thing I will mention that is at the core of the trouble with company versus players is that marketing tactics and such are always geared to finding the next player base. Each and every year it is basically like everyones stuff gets rolled back and some players will stick around and re-gear themselves back to what they had the year prior to that. Then the real problem is most decisions are made and implemented where its obvious the changes were made not valuing the loyal customer/player. It is kind of like any company really in the end you are paying way more money in training new employees when keeping the trained and loyal employees happy. I understand though that PWE is a business but no matter what is told to them about how much we like what is being done... they will see when they do their quarterly and annual profits and see that its not making nearly what it used to be making.
Now you're just being silly.
Besides, the forum rules, enforced by mods, should never be subject to dispute or 'blame' to begin with, as you chose to abide by said rules when you signed up here.
Although we are actually not allowed to discuss (specific) moderation, overall I'm fine with the way they do it.
To try and answer your question, the best way you can help to post feedback and continue to work with your fleetmates to keep things moving forward for the betterment of STO, I recommend the following.
Your OP is well written and not inflammatory at all, IMO. Keep writing like that. It is a clear and concise question and shows that you want to work with staff, mods and devs alike, to work to better STO for all.
Bravo and my thanks for wanting to do so.
Best thing any member of our forum can do is learn the TOS and the layout of these forums to help keep reports and discussion in the right locations, and with the right intentions. To build up, not to tear down.
Bug Reports go to the Gameplay Bug Reports section, not General Discussion, etc. If you post in the wrong area, your message may get lost in a sea of other posts.
In-game issues affecting your account are best handled with tickets and the Support page. As well as issues that are only happening in-game, such as chat violations (make sure these are reported via in-game ticket with date & time so our CS team can view chat logs). Be patient and descriptive when submitting these tickets as they are handled by a staff other then who handles the forums.
Try your best to focus your discussion and not attack. Especially not the staff members trying to help, or a staff member who has nothing to do with the issue at hand. For instance the last week has seen a lot of discontent over bugs directed at TacoFangs who works in Environment Design. That is not going to lead to a fix, and will only result in potentially alienating a friendly and caring dev who enjoys interacting with the players.
Keep things civil. Don't hurl insults or slurs. At staff or other Forum users. Don't blame a culture or group for something that has no basis in such an accusation. Don't attack in order to be heard.
Remember that every situation is as different as every game out there. What worked in WoW doesn't work in SWTOR.
Also remember that the various staff members who work on STO do love Star Trek, myself included, and many of us played STO before we worked here. This forum is a prime example of the many varied and nuanced views and versions of what it means to be a Star Trek fan. Not all of us love it for the same reason, or look at the history of the franchise in exactly the same way.
Variety is the spice of life, and that is what makes Star Trek so appealing. It is literally a representation of a Universe full of IDIC (Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations) and STO pools all of these franchise branches into one cohesive pace for us all to get together to enjoy them, together.
It is fine to not like something, in-game or out. It is fine to state that. Where we have to draw a line is when that difference in taste or of opinion is turned into a weapon to attack those who like something someone else dislikes.
We value player feedback and we want to hear from our players, all of them. We simply ask you to help us work together, not condemn each other for wanting different things, or our teammates for doing their jobs to the best of their abilities.
As we approach the holiday season, let's work to make things better for all of us here in the STO Forums, and in-game.
Thanks everyone,
~CaptainSmirk
especially as the company's nationality does not matter, since the model followed, is the economic Western model. Indian companies or african companies follow also the same models.
we are also responsible for the current game status, because we as customers still buy stuff.
Until DR I hadn't made a forum post in so long I had to recreate my forum account just to post. I spent a tonne of money in the last year onj STO and this last XP nerf was the final straw. I've bought zen to buy dil to upgrade ships, bought dil to use the new upgrade system, bought keys and ships, wastched ships and upgrades become obsolete within a couple of months of buying them.
The arrogance and ignorance of Cryptic/PWE in the last two months has pushed me to the brink. Bugs that were so bad and so amateur they could not have been missed in testing, and yes I'm a professional programmer. Game crippling bugs part of "the most successful release evah!", players being blamed for playing the game and called exploiters, punitive action taken against those people that spilled over onto people who weren't involved. Denials, denials, denials followed by vague admissions people were right(but not in so many words).
I just can't get my head around it. Does your company HATE your customers? Do you think we are stupid? Because I can assure you we as a general rule are not. How much do you think the user base will take of Cryptic blaming it's customers and treating them like idiots before you don't have customers?
I think that is the biggest issue many of us has had recently is a feeling that all this was being shouted on deft ears which it is clearly not. Many people may walk away, many will stay, not because we can't but because we don't walk away from the friends and people that are like family to us in this game.
That to me is what this game, and the community in it, is all about. Not endless grinds, not who has the best gear or builds, not a mad quest to see who can do a STF faster than anyone else, but the friends and comrades we all make here. To know that you all are looking at all this, and indeed listening I feel brings us all some much needed hope that you see that as well.
IDIC is the very principle our fleet is founded on, no one left behind is another, and to see that quote you made does indeed raise my spirit and give me some hope that this is what this game will continue to stand for.
Call me a softy or whatever, but that's exactly what I was wanting to know, and you all have answered.
Thank you Askray and Smirk for taking the time, people can comment that its your job but you never had to address this, yet you took some time and did so again thank you.
Stone_loki
I hope you realize statements like what I bolded is what Smirk was pointing out that doesn't work. If the devs truly hated us, do you think we would see any of them replying to us like Tacofangs does? I don't think we would.
I think I can put Smirk's message in a way that we can understand. The devs are willing to work with us if we can show them we can be civil and help them identify areas of the game we believe need to be fixed, without anger. Remember that there's only so much that they can get done within the time they have during the day.
Sorry to post here as well but since we are on the subject of how to make constructive contributions I wanted to let you know about what I am hoping is my best effort in that regard.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Dang, Cryptic can use some of the same advice. The problem lies where Cryptic doesn't listen. There are mounds of information in the forums about the 'most successful launch' that aren't being tended to by anyone of the company you work for. No communication at all except complaining about others 'blaming each other'. Seriously? The next patch coming up has almost nothing to do with your customers not logging in. You express to us to come and talk on the forums but yet, nothing is getting done. We might as well be talking to a brick wall, it's just as effective. Good luck with your customer base. Cryptic is losing a lot of it.
So when players blame the devs for not listening, they are doing so inaccurately and making fools of themselves, at least some of the time. The devs do read the forums, they do listen and consider feedback - but people seem to believe that because they did consider it, it's being done, than are angry at them that they turned around and did the opposite... when they never turned on the decision in the first place; just decided
So not all of the problem is with Cryptic; part of it is definitely this forum, and how they can't express their frustrations/concerns reasonably, at least imo As vegeta50024 said, things like this are not the way to handle the situation (even if you think they're true - excessive honesty can be disastrous that way, to quote Picard). The talks must be reasonable, the arguments civil, and the reasoning clear and concise without insults/threats/accusations/hyperbole/etc etc anywhere down the line. Otherwise we get nowhere real fast, and only strain what is already here, no matter how it may look already
And as far as 'most successful release ever', that's the PR's job, to put a positive spin on things no matter what the reality; I've seen far bigger companies do the same that it's commonplace. Plus, playing the game and exploiting are different things between different people - to us, it may be playing to some, but it could be considered an exploit from their perspective (we have to consider that). Plus it's been well established by now that STO's bug hunting is priority-based, and fix-what-we-can-right-now, rather than obvious-first - and the release dates fixed no matter what (likely from higher up).
^Above paragraph is simply the reality of it all - and imo, there's no good reason to let our feelings get in the way
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Interesting. Cryptic/pwe can blame the players, accuse people of cheating, put out a release with documented game breaking bugs BUT they will work with us if we can be civil?
Civility works both ways, you can't release vaguely worded letters accusing your players of cheating, and anyone who says they weren't of being a liar, and demand you be treated with respect and even deference.
You don't release software with documented game ruining bugs reported by players and ignored, and take four weeks to even try to fix them; and then tell players you are ready to work with them if they can identify problem areas without anger. All in the name of civility, old chap.
You don't demand communication when you give none. When people complain about it you set a timer to prevent people from posting more than once every 300 seconds. Communication also means HONESTY. Don't blow smoke like "DR is the most successful and trouble-free launch ever" , "players were using exploits" and a hundred other pieces of misinformation, or what many others would call lies, I can site since the DR release.
Yes, civility is a two way street. Some people could be nicer posting. Cryptic is first and foremost among those.