Ya know it'd be one thing to say 'we're nerfing pets but to make up for it we're fixing their idiotic behavior (not following commands, getting lost, being drawn to every single warp core breach, etc.' but this is really over the top.
Well played Cryptic. We suspected you goobers did not have the player's best interests at heart, but dayum !!!
Well, there goes my suggestion to make the Mobius console scale more like NPCs and less like players.
While a slight nerf might have been in order, a full nerf down to scaling off the player seems to make these worthless in a world where NPCs scale at high magnitudes since the same reasons for making NPCs tough (lack of AI, for example) apply almost equally to player pets.
I think what would make the most sense for my money would be to have player pets (including Fleet Support and Mobius decoys, along with the listed items) derive 50% of their scaling from NPCs of their level and 50% of scaling from the player.
This would reflect their status as "half AI/half player controlled" ships.
STEP 1 GET EVERYONE MONEY FOR BUG SHIPS
STEP 2 PROFIT
STEP 3 INCREASING LVL CAP TO 60
STEP 4 GET EVERYONE MONEY FOR INTEL SHIPS
STEP 5 PROFIT
STEP 6 NERF IT ALL STARTING WITH CARRIERS
STEP 7 MAKE ALL THE MONEY YOU CAN BE FOR YOU LOSE RIGHTS TO STAR TREK AND GAME GOES BELLY UP:mad::mad::mad:
So what? you are not a mindless NPC that needs extra hull to compensate of its lack of intelligence and lack of DPS.
With that setup you can Scatter volley 3 a mob, with EPW, Tact Team, APO, DEM and juts about most pre-DR NPCs are dead in 1 volley. You would be able to kill most 80k+ hulled hanger pets in 1 pass.
Is this the official way to communicate from now on? Some random thread in a subforum, not even sticky? Where are the community managers and the mods... somebody... anybody?
Just don't. Please. The amount of "Yay, look at our new content... you're not looking at it hard enough... why aren't your worshiping it? THAT'S IT, WE'RE GONNA NERF THE EVERLOVIN' (expletive of choice) OUT OF YOUR EXISTING STUFF SINCE YOU'RE NOT BOWING DOWN TO THE NEW STUFF!" is getting ridiculous.
As it is, the only pets that even work for me are fleet Elite Weavers. Scorpions? Peregrines? Swarmers? Hah. They explode when looked at for more than two seconds. JHAS frigates *might* work, but I can't/won't shell out that much just for some new pets.
You've already screwed my gear, my progression rate, my alts, my rep... leave me my carrier pets. Please?
Last night was the first night I tried out my Recluses since the expansion. I was pleasantly surprised to see they seemed to have a fighting chance right out of the box, but apparently that just meant they must have been overpowered.
FIX SOMETHING THAT NEEDS FIXED... LIKE THE UI ISSUES OR GRAPHICS LAG I DON'T KNOW SOME ON THAT LIST OF STUFF YOU IGNORE MAYBE LEVELING XP...FIX STUFF THAT NEEDS FIXED CARRIERS DON'T NEED NERF OR THE PETS... TALK TO MORE MORONS WHO DON'T KNOW HOW FLY THERE SHIPS CLEARLY YOU DONT PLAY THE GAME!!!:mad::mad::mad:
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] DELTA RISING FIXS THERE NEVER COMING WHY I'M I WASTING MY TIME ASKING FOR THEM ???
For whatever reason, the devs decided that NPCs needed bonus stat handicaps to make up for AI.
If that's the case, I think NPC pets perhaps should have more hull than the ship. Not as much more as we have on live but perhaps more nevertheless.
Compare an NPC Galaxy's health to a playable Galaxy. You'll see the NPC enemy has probably 5x the health. So having a player summoned NPC match the player ignores the reasoning for giving the enemy more health: ie. to make up for weak AI.
If a player flying a Galaxy could summon a Galaxy, I'd argue that the summoned NPC, being half AI, should have perhaps 3x the HP of the player ship. (2.5x being 50% from NPC value. 0.5x being 50% of the player value. Total 3x.)
Now, carrier pets would have lower bonuses than summoning a full ship copy but I see nothing innately wrong with them having more hull (say, 1.5x or 1.2x) than the ship summoning them, in a world where their NPC counterparts might have 3x the hull of your ship.
So my saucer sep.and hanger pets were to powerful. I must have been using them wrong because they seem to blow up all the time. Really stupid move here. Not surprised by anything lord geko and his merry men do to ruin this game anymore. It just means my exit will come sooner. My wallet is closed forever from these guys. Next it will be T5U ships were using wrong data and have to be nerfed. Don't be surprised if new and better pets show up in the c store.
Nope, not c-store expect a new R & D scool at level 20 you can unlock the ability to craft Epic level pets for 250,000 dilithium
PS.. Epic level pets will have same stats pets currently have +1 Beam array :P
Yeah, I'm going to agree that pet health needs to be nerfed and correctly scaled off of the player.
That said, I still stand by my opinion that pet movement speed should be buffed to compensate.
I'm not even asking for comprehensive pet A.I. to avoid Hazards, and imminent Hazards (Warp Plasma, Theta Radiation, Gravity Wells, Aceton Assimilators/Drones, Undine Rifts, Warp Core Breaches, etc.), although that would be nice and improve survivability without needing overly buffed health in a typical mission.
Despite the toxicity of the thread, I can easily glean that the main issue isn't with nerfing pet health, but that survivability is so dependant on pet health as a result of inadequate pet A.I. and pet controls, when pets should realistically rely more on agility and speed to avoid death -- and the brains to use that agility and speed to make up for their fragility.
Yeah, I'm going to agree that pet health needs to be nerfed and correctly scaled off of the player.
That said, I still stand by my opinion that pet movement speed should be buffed to compensate.
I'm not even asking for comprehensive pet A.I. to avoid Hazards (Warp Plasma, Theta Radiation, Gravity Wells, Aceton Assimilators/Drones, Undine Rifts, Warp Core Breaches, etc.), although that would be nice and improve survivability without needing overly buffed health in a typical mission.
Despite the toxicity of the thread, I can easily glean that the main issue isn't with nerfing pet health, but that survivability is so dependant on pet health as a result of inadequate pet A.I. and pet controls, when pets should realistically rely more on agility and speed to avoid death.
I think if you're looking at speed as a compensation then speed rather than HP should be the handicap awarded NPC enemies as well rather than their currently bloated HP pools.
The same essential AI handicap bonus for pets should be the same essential AI handicap for NPCs. Pets get less of it, fine, because they are not wholly AI.
But whatever AI handicap bonus enemies receive should be the same one pets receive, just less of it for pets.
I think if you're looking at speed as a compensation then speed rather than HP should be the handicap awarded NPC enemies as well rather than their currently bloated HP pools.
The same essential AI handicap bonus for pets should be the same essential AI handicap for NPCs. Pets get less of it, fine, because they are not wholly AI.
But whatever AI handicap bonus enemies receive should be the same one pets receive, just less of it for pets.
I thing the linear damage increase should be changed to be similiar to damage resistance curve. This is the main problem. Damage boost can go sky high. It should equalize all professions, Pets should be just the beggining of nerfing insane dps rush (where only tac captains can achieve enormous amounts of damage, leaving other classes obsolete).
I think if you're looking at speed as a compensation then speed rather than HP should be the handicap awarded NPC enemies as well rather than their currently bloated HP pools.
The same essential AI handicap bonus for pets should be the same essential AI handicap for NPCs. Pets get less of it, fine, because they are not wholly AI.
But whatever AI handicap bonus enemies receive should be the same one pets receive, just less of it for pets.
I Disagree. The NPC is an enemy. Pets are gear. we can launch more pets. When the npc is dead it is dead. Pets are not meant to draw aggro and tank. They are meant to supplement our builds. Do they die from scatter volley and Faw yes but not all npcs use it.
Pets can change their behavior based on commands we give them. NPC cannot.
We can heal pets even though we do not. Npc don't have that option.
A couple of ya'll are actually commenting about the best way to handle the hanger pet nerfing follow through?
Messing with the hanger pets in anyway right now is no where near justifiably a priority, especially when there are game breaking bugs that are both new and have been around for years even some since launch!
And a couple of you wanna actually talk about the best way to follow through with the hanger pet nerf? A nerfing that is in no way near needed.
NPCs can heal each-other or their pets.
They just do not.
Same deal.
We have very little control over our pets. For all our "commands", the NPC AI gets to handle all that better.
The difference is that right now, pets were being useful, and they're not supposed to be, because they aren't a FAW or CSV boat using OSS.
They were eating a minute amount of incoming fire, which was giving carriers a modicum of survivability, when they aren't a FAW or CSV boat using OSS.
The result is that some people were having a small part of their gear be useful, and having fun, when the game is supposed to no longer be about anything but maximizing DPS to meet the new time-gates, to take the focus away from all-DPS-and-nothing-else.
Yeah, I'm going to agree that pet health needs to be nerfed and correctly scaled off of the player.
That said, I still stand by my opinion that pet movement speed should be buffed to compensate.
I'm not even asking for comprehensive pet A.I. to avoid Hazards, and imminent Hazards (Warp Plasma, Theta Radiation, Gravity Wells, Aceton Assimilators/Drones, Undine Rifts, Warp Core Breaches, etc.), although that would be nice and improve survivability without needing overly buffed health in a typical mission.
Despite the toxicity of the thread, I can easily glean that the main issue isn't with nerfing pet health, but that survivability is so dependant on pet health as a result of inadequate pet A.I. and pet controls, when pets should realistically rely more on agility and speed to avoid death -- and the brains to use that agility and speed to make up for their fragility.
Yeah, if carrier commands were more responsive and pet AI was much better, I wouldn't have a deal over this. But nerfing pets who are still stuck with poor responsiveness to commands and poor AI in an environment surrounded by NPC HP and resist sponges just is leaving a poor taste in my mouth.
I find it sorta amusing that people hate any nerf whatsoever, on principle, even before the DR issues...
Anyway, regarding the pets, interesting - obviously they were never gonna be full powerhouses (no matter how good people want them to be), so perhaps this might make them little additions, like they should be.
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
I am a Carrier Pilot, I launch wings of Frigates or Fighters or Support Vessels.
THEY 100% ABSOLUTELY must be doing more damage than my ship - I am a CARRIER!
Carrier pets suck simple! AI sucks, HP sucks and DPS sucks, they are plain last in the DPS race of STO.
DR comes along, and for the first time in FOREVER, it feels like the pets are actually capable of something other than constant warp core breaches.
AND YOU WANNA NERF THEM!
ARRRGGGGG THIS GAME MAKES ME SO ANGRY :mad:
Just dont!
Considering carriers have almost the same DPS abilities than a non carrier ship, I don't understand why they should have pets that deal more damage than them. Carrier have the same amount of weaapons, the same amount of power level, and console than a non carrier equivalent. Some of them can even have DHC. And several of them are escort carrier, IE escort with hangar bay.
In STO, pets are an added DPS to an otherwise regular ship.
I wish the carrier would rely mostly on pets, with "pets" boff abilities replacing the usual boff abilities, for example a pets fire at will instead of the regular fire at will.
But that's not true.
I heard about this in Fleet chat, and was hoping it wasn't true...
I was saying that my Elite Yellowstones, Delta flyers, Oblisic pop like crazy as it is, they don't need to be weaker.
Their controls are so laggy and buggy, most of the time they don't return to my bay anyway, or 1 or 2 will get locked outside and not dock at all.
They end up blowing up on every larger enemy NPC anyway, even when I tell them to intercept, or defend, eating up my crew as I make new ones.
When and IF they do dock, sometimes they heal over time, sometimes they don't.
They can barley survive most PvEs as it is, FFA is about the only one where they can gain veterancy.
They don't stay with you during story missions that require you to warp to a different region while still IN the mission, same goes for the Gorn PvE where you warp to the 2nd half of the mission.
They don't follow you well if you go full impulse, they don't use their special abilities very much either.
They are so broken as it is, and no fix insight, and now you're going to nerf them... christ...
It was great after that one patch where my hanger pets were being effected by my Tac. consoles, it really made them shine.
If an enemy ship can have 750+ HP my hanger "pets" can have an inflated hull too.
God damn shame I just got a ZEN Heavy Escort Carrier, what a waste...
Comments
Well played Cryptic. We suspected you goobers did not have the player's best interests at heart, but dayum !!!
While a slight nerf might have been in order, a full nerf down to scaling off the player seems to make these worthless in a world where NPCs scale at high magnitudes since the same reasons for making NPCs tough (lack of AI, for example) apply almost equally to player pets.
I think what would make the most sense for my money would be to have player pets (including Fleet Support and Mobius decoys, along with the listed items) derive 50% of their scaling from NPCs of their level and 50% of scaling from the player.
This would reflect their status as "half AI/half player controlled" ships.
Look at this http://i.imgur.com/EWK9fzS.png
My Pet has more hull then I do.
STEP 2 PROFIT
STEP 3 INCREASING LVL CAP TO 60
STEP 4 GET EVERYONE MONEY FOR INTEL SHIPS
STEP 5 PROFIT
STEP 6 NERF IT ALL STARTING WITH CARRIERS
STEP 7 MAKE ALL THE MONEY YOU CAN BE FOR YOU LOSE RIGHTS TO STAR TREK AND GAME GOES BELLY UP:mad::mad::mad:
STEP 8 PROFIT PROFIT PROFIT PROFIT PROFIT PROFIT PROFIT PROFIT PROFIT!
STEP 9 GAME OVER!
DELTA RISING FIXS THERE NEVER COMING WHY I'M I WASTING MY TIME ASKING FOR THEM ???
So what? you are not a mindless NPC that needs extra hull to compensate of its lack of intelligence and lack of DPS.
With that setup you can Scatter volley 3 a mob, with EPW, Tact Team, APO, DEM and juts about most pre-DR NPCs are dead in 1 volley. You would be able to kill most 80k+ hulled hanger pets in 1 pass.
Other than the Drone ship, most pets are fine! And some NEED BUFFS!
Look at ALL bird of prey pets ! broken! needs wider cannon arcs! rapidfire is broke too.
Look at Elite Swarmers.... broken! need hull buff! dies instantly
Look at Ultra Widows.... broken! need damage buff! so weak
...need I go on? :mad::mad::mad::mad:
Click to Join armadafleet.org/
As it is, the only pets that even work for me are fleet Elite Weavers. Scorpions? Peregrines? Swarmers? Hah. They explode when looked at for more than two seconds. JHAS frigates *might* work, but I can't/won't shell out that much just for some new pets.
You've already screwed my gear, my progression rate, my alts, my rep... leave me my carrier pets. Please?
Last night was the first night I tried out my Recluses since the expansion. I was pleasantly surprised to see they seemed to have a fighting chance right out of the box, but apparently that just meant they must have been overpowered.
DELTA RISING FIXS THERE NEVER COMING WHY I'M I WASTING MY TIME ASKING FOR THEM ???
Thank you for posting that.
And so does every NPC version of your ship.
For whatever reason, the devs decided that NPCs needed bonus stat handicaps to make up for AI.
If that's the case, I think NPC pets perhaps should have more hull than the ship. Not as much more as we have on live but perhaps more nevertheless.
Compare an NPC Galaxy's health to a playable Galaxy. You'll see the NPC enemy has probably 5x the health. So having a player summoned NPC match the player ignores the reasoning for giving the enemy more health: ie. to make up for weak AI.
If a player flying a Galaxy could summon a Galaxy, I'd argue that the summoned NPC, being half AI, should have perhaps 3x the HP of the player ship. (2.5x being 50% from NPC value. 0.5x being 50% of the player value. Total 3x.)
Now, carrier pets would have lower bonuses than summoning a full ship copy but I see nothing innately wrong with them having more hull (say, 1.5x or 1.2x) than the ship summoning them, in a world where their NPC counterparts might have 3x the hull of your ship.
Communication is appreciated, even if some of the news is not.
Anyways here I was almost thinking of opening up my wallet for a T6.
It has been closed for a while as your metrics/data will tell you.
This is due to the recent changes including the pap-grade system/XP fiasco/and over the top nerf batting.
I will have to state until I get my fun feeling back my wallet is going to stay shut like a clam.
Whats more of a shame for STO is that the money I use to spend here is now in a space sim developers pocket.
So far to the tune of $750.( And that is no bull. )
Here's hoping we get our fun feeling back soon.
As I am sure I am not the only one feeling this way.
But I guess your metrics/date has told you that already.
Nope, not c-store expect a new R & D scool at level 20 you can unlock the ability to craft Epic level pets for 250,000 dilithium
PS.. Epic level pets will have same stats pets currently have +1 Beam array :P
Yeah, I'm going to agree that pet health needs to be nerfed and correctly scaled off of the player.
That said, I still stand by my opinion that pet movement speed should be buffed to compensate.
I'm not even asking for comprehensive pet A.I. to avoid Hazards, and imminent Hazards (Warp Plasma, Theta Radiation, Gravity Wells, Aceton Assimilators/Drones, Undine Rifts, Warp Core Breaches, etc.), although that would be nice and improve survivability without needing overly buffed health in a typical mission.
Despite the toxicity of the thread, I can easily glean that the main issue isn't with nerfing pet health, but that survivability is so dependant on pet health as a result of inadequate pet A.I. and pet controls, when pets should realistically rely more on agility and speed to avoid death -- and the brains to use that agility and speed to make up for their fragility.
I think if you're looking at speed as a compensation then speed rather than HP should be the handicap awarded NPC enemies as well rather than their currently bloated HP pools.
The same essential AI handicap bonus for pets should be the same essential AI handicap for NPCs. Pets get less of it, fine, because they are not wholly AI.
But whatever AI handicap bonus enemies receive should be the same one pets receive, just less of it for pets.
I think that is also fair.
I Disagree. The NPC is an enemy. Pets are gear. we can launch more pets. When the npc is dead it is dead. Pets are not meant to draw aggro and tank. They are meant to supplement our builds. Do they die from scatter volley and Faw yes but not all npcs use it.
Pets can change their behavior based on commands we give them. NPC cannot.
We can heal pets even though we do not. Npc don't have that option.
Comparing pets to npcs is not entirely fair.
Pet AI is horrid, sits on warp core explosions... so lets nerf the them
Pet are slow making any target switch ineffective make them do bad dps.... so let nerf them
Pets die almost instantly to AOE... so let nerf them.
Pets only good use is in static fight and opening volleys... so lets nerf them
/sigh
Messing with the hanger pets in anyway right now is no where near justifiably a priority, especially when there are game breaking bugs that are both new and have been around for years even some since launch!
And a couple of you wanna actually talk about the best way to follow through with the hanger pet nerf? A nerfing that is in no way near needed.
They just do not.
Same deal.
We have very little control over our pets. For all our "commands", the NPC AI gets to handle all that better.
The difference is that right now, pets were being useful, and they're not supposed to be, because they aren't a FAW or CSV boat using OSS.
They were eating a minute amount of incoming fire, which was giving carriers a modicum of survivability, when they aren't a FAW or CSV boat using OSS.
The result is that some people were having a small part of their gear be useful, and having fun, when the game is supposed to no longer be about anything but maximizing DPS to meet the new time-gates, to take the focus away from all-DPS-and-nothing-else.
That seems to be the case. <<chuckles>>
Mayhaps they need to look at the npc scaling, rather than, pc pets.
Sarah Knightly - Co-leader; Frontier Explorers - U.S.S. Witchblade
Rias Gremory - Leader; Frontier Marauders - I.K.S. B'ullwinkle
Don't do a lazy as **** blanket Nerf to all of them.
Yeah, if carrier commands were more responsive and pet AI was much better, I wouldn't have a deal over this. But nerfing pets who are still stuck with poor responsiveness to commands and poor AI in an environment surrounded by NPC HP and resist sponges just is leaving a poor taste in my mouth.
smells like **** .... tastes like **** ..... must be **** ! :mad:
like SERIOUSLY!
I am a Carrier Pilot, I launch wings of Frigates or Fighters or Support Vessels.
THEY 100% ABSOLUTELY must be doing more damage than my ship - I am a CARRIER!
Carrier pets suck simple! AI sucks, HP sucks and DPS sucks, they are plain last in the DPS race of STO.
DR comes along, and for the first time in FOREVER, it feels like the pets are actually capable of something other than constant warp core breaches.
AND YOU WANNA NERF THEM!
ARRRGGGGG THIS GAME MAKES ME SO ANGRY :mad:
Just dont!
Anyway, regarding the pets, interesting - obviously they were never gonna be full powerhouses (no matter how good people want them to be), so perhaps this might make them little additions, like they should be.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
In STO, pets are an added DPS to an otherwise regular ship.
I wish the carrier would rely mostly on pets, with "pets" boff abilities replacing the usual boff abilities, for example a pets fire at will instead of the regular fire at will.
But that's not true.
I was saying that my Elite Yellowstones, Delta flyers, Oblisic pop like crazy as it is, they don't need to be weaker.
Their controls are so laggy and buggy, most of the time they don't return to my bay anyway, or 1 or 2 will get locked outside and not dock at all.
They end up blowing up on every larger enemy NPC anyway, even when I tell them to intercept, or defend, eating up my crew as I make new ones.
When and IF they do dock, sometimes they heal over time, sometimes they don't.
They can barley survive most PvEs as it is, FFA is about the only one where they can gain veterancy.
They don't stay with you during story missions that require you to warp to a different region while still IN the mission, same goes for the Gorn PvE where you warp to the 2nd half of the mission.
They don't follow you well if you go full impulse, they don't use their special abilities very much either.
They are so broken as it is, and no fix insight, and now you're going to nerf them... christ...
It was great after that one patch where my hanger pets were being effected by my Tac. consoles, it really made them shine.
If an enemy ship can have 750+ HP my hanger "pets" can have an inflated hull too.
God damn shame I just got a ZEN Heavy Escort Carrier, what a waste...