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Abramverse not the same universe as STO

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  • berginsbergins Member Posts: 3,453 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    dpsloss88 wrote: »
    I would love a series staring the evil Kirk or Mirror Spock.
    Oh! I'd watch that!

    Oh: PLOT TWIST!!!

    Spock is Sylar!
    "Logic is a little tweeting bird chirping in a meadow. Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell BAD." - Spock
  • rancidmojorancidmojo Member Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    Not really.

    The people in the Federation had businesses. Picard had a winery. It was not free wine. Sisko had a restaurant. It was not free food.

    This topic comes up a lot and there are numerous examples on Memory Alpha where the Federation was still using currency and business.

    Back in open beta (I had a different account then) and for months afterwards this came up a lot. I'm just going to come out and say...the no money thing is a dumb idea. I couldn't care less if it was Gene's idea it was a bad one, both in storytelling and because it makes little to no sense.

    Of course someone will say "Well, the people in the 24th century work to better themselves". Yeah, right. I guess the waiters at Sisko's restaurant are working there for no money because it makes them better, huh? I'm not the biggest fan of the Abrams stuff but if he retcons that out of trek I'll be happy.

    Its only a sliver of silliness more than the humans no longer eat meat thing from the 1st season of TNG. Which again has been contradicted on TV.
  • ashrod63ashrod63 Member Posts: 384 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    rancidmojo wrote: »
    Back in open beta (I had a different account then) and for months afterwards this came up a lot. I'm just going to come out and say...the no money thing is a dumb idea. I couldn't care less if it was Gene's idea it was a bad one, both in storytelling and because it makes little to no sense.

    Of course someone will say "Well, the people in the 24th century work to better themselves". Yeah, right. I guess the waiters at Sisko's restaurant are working there for no money because it makes them better, huh? I'm not the biggest fan of the Abrams stuff but if he retcons that out of trek I'll be happy.

    Its only a sliver of silliness more than the humans no longer eat meat thing from the 1st season of TNG. Which again has been contradicted on TV.

    That's because you are a 21st century human who is still stuck in your backwards capitalist ways so it obviously wouldn't make sense to you (at least that's how you are viewed by the people of the 24th century).
  • rancidmojorancidmojo Member Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    ashrod63 wrote: »
    That's because you are a 21st century human who is still stuck in your backwards capitalist ways so it obviously wouldn't make sense to you (at least that's how you are viewed by the people of the 24th century).

    But I'm not viewed that way because those people do not exist. They'll never exist, at least not in the next 400 years.

    As I said, it was a dumb idea to even say the no money thing on TV. It was even dumber to state it and then to contradict it. I guess Sisko's waiters are very enlightened then because I wouldn't wait tables for no pay.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    rancidmojo wrote: »
    But I'm not viewed that way because those people do not exist. They'll never exist, at least not in the next 400 years.

    As I said, it was a dumb idea to even say the no money thing on TV. It was even dumber to state it and then to contradict it. I guess Sisko's waiters are very enlightened then because I wouldn't wait tables for no pay.
    Well, Gene Roddenberry seemed to believe that humans would undergo some real change as they explore the stars, after having experienced really bad times. In his fictional 24th century, a person with your mindset might simply not exist. AT least not in the Federation.

    But ignoring that - what if you relaly don't need to worry about money and income, but don't want to be bored. And like to meet people. Maybe you'd start working in a restaurant.
    Or maybe not you. But someone on Earth wants to, and Papa Sisko is looking for someone.


    I suppose a more "realistic" view on the Federation can be found in Ian M. Banks "The Culture" novels. Humans there are still pretty much like you know them, but they genuinely don't need money, because they live in a post-scarcity society.
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  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 3,008 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    rancidmojo wrote: »
    But I'm not viewed that way because those people do not exist. They'll never exist, at least not in the next 400 years.

    As I said, it was a dumb idea to even say the no money thing on TV. It was even dumber to state it and then to contradict it. I guess Sisko's waiters are very enlightened then because I wouldn't wait tables for no pay.

    I got to agree with this. If there is no money...and you could literally do anything you want...flying around the galaxy, exploring new worlds...meeting aliens...why would you be a waiter?
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  • ashrod63ashrod63 Member Posts: 384 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    rancidmojo wrote: »
    But I'm not viewed that way because those people do not exist. They'll never exist, at least not in the next 400 years.

    As I said, it was a dumb idea to even say the no money thing on TV. It was even dumber to state it and then to contradict it. I guess Sisko's waiters are very enlightened then because I wouldn't wait tables for no pay.

    That's up to them, they do it because they enjoy it. Clearly the younger Sisko didn't enjoy being a waiter and cleared off at the first opportunity.

    At the end of the day, if you had replicators and could literally get absolutely anything you wanted for free, what would you need money for?
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,460 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    ashrod63 wrote: »
    That's up to them, they do it because they enjoy it. Clearly the younger Sisko didn't enjoy being a waiter and cleared off at the first opportunity.

    At the end of the day, if you had replicators and could literally get absolutely anything you wanted for free, what would you need money for?
    Some things apparently can't be replicated. Others derive their value precisely because they're the original. You'd need something to exchange for those.

    (A while back there was an art forger who specialized in creating expert copies of Vermeer paintings. He got so good at it that he was able to create original paintings in Vermeer's style, which sold for massive amounts of money as "newly discovered" Vermeers. When he was finally caught, of course, he was beggared by the punitive damages, as well as jailed. Art historians have said that if he had only signed his own name to those works, rather than claiming them as Vermeers, he could have made a tidy living - not the huge sums he got from forgery, but enough to live quite comfortably, and without losing it all in the end. Once it was discovered these were forgeries - replicas, in essence - they plunged from being invaluable to being valueless, because they weren't "originals". Even though you couldn't tell the difference unless you were an expert with many decades experience.)
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  • bernatkbernatk Member Posts: 1,089 Bug Hunter
    edited September 2014
    dpsloss88 wrote: »
    I see people claiming Abramverse is part of Star Trek, well not prime universe Star Trek. Spock and Kirk even state this directly to the camera in the middle of Star Trek (2009) "Abram Trek". CBS (OR SOMEONE ELSE, whatever, its irrelevant) may own both Abramverse and Star Trek but they are not the same.

    JJ Trek is canon. JJ Trek is an alternate timeline. Prime timeline's last action was Nemesis. Shatner is the real Kirk. He's the Prime timeline's Kirk. The End.
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  • orangeitisorangeitis Member Posts: 5,222 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    bernatk wrote: »
    JJ Trek is canon. JJ Trek is an alternate timeline. Prime timeline's last action was Nemesis. Shatner is the real Kirk. He's the Prime timeline's Kirk. The End.
    Define "real".
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  • bernatkbernatk Member Posts: 1,089 Bug Hunter
    edited September 2014
    orangeitis wrote: »
    Define "real".
    bernatk wrote: »
    He's the Prime timeline's Kirk.

    /tencharsss
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  • ashrod63ashrod63 Member Posts: 384 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    bernatk wrote: »
    JJ Trek is canon. JJ Trek is an alternate timeline. Prime timeline's last action was Nemesis. Shatner is the real Kirk. He's the Prime timeline's Kirk. The End.

    No, the Prime timeline's last action was the mind meld flashback we see in the movie of the Jellyfish falling into the singularity.
  • orangeitisorangeitis Member Posts: 5,222 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    bernatk wrote: »
    /tencharsss
    Okay, so he's the Prime Timeline's Kirk. So what?
  • bernatkbernatk Member Posts: 1,089 Bug Hunter
    edited September 2014
    ashrod63 wrote: »
    No, the Prime timeline's last action was the mind meld flashback we see in the movie of the Jellyfish falling into the singularity.

    Ok that's a slippery slope. TBH anything that happens in the IDW comics and the 3 movies I wouldn't consider Prime timeline. Ever. (Unless they use old footage from TV series or movies.)
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  • rancidmojorancidmojo Member Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    ashrod63 wrote: »
    That's up to them, they do it because they enjoy it. Clearly the younger Sisko didn't enjoy being a waiter and cleared off at the first opportunity.

    At the end of the day, if you had replicators and could literally get absolutely anything you wanted for free, what would you need money for?

    I'm fifty years old, retired from military service. I've met a lot of people from all over the world. No one I've ever met that has worked as a waiter or waitress (which includes my wife) has ever said they enjoyed it. But hey, maybe the elder Sisko actually met a handful of people that did, which is just as unbelievable as giant space amoebas.

    But then you run into another irksome issue...

    People can get anything they want for free. Why bother even going to Sisko's for a meal? I can have that meal in a holodeck, while indulging my fantasies! FOR FREE.

    I guess I couldn't go to Sisko's because the waiters and staff wuouldn't be there either. Why would they want to scuttle trays of food all night for other people to eat when they too can have whatever they want for free?

    Besides, they're breaking the "humans don't eat meat anymore" rule. Sisko sure wasn't cleaning those clams because he liked it so much. He even said if he didn't have to clean another on it would be too soon. Not to mention the giant steak Bashir ordered once.

    ....and the only way to reconcile that is "people in the 24th century, blah blah blah...." which doesn't reconcile anything. Its just a way to say the entire concept wasn't thought out very well. Because if it was they probably wouldn't have put it in. Its probably one of the reason's Gene got kicked upstairs during the first few seasons of TNG.

    They just weren't good ideas, and unnecessary to practically everything in any story. From a writing standpoint they're more of a detriment to creating or fleshing out characters and stories than not.
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    bernatk wrote: »
    Ok that's a slippery slope. TBH anything that happens in the IDW comics and the 3 movies I wouldn't consider Prime timeline. Ever. (Unless they use old footage from TV series or movies.)
    So you are saying that is not the Prime Universe old Spock in those episodes? :)
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • eldarion79eldarion79 Member Posts: 1,679 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I have always find it humorous that people cannot reconcile that there is an alternate universe despite it being a common theme in Star Trek. However, they can accept space amoebas, space whales, giant space hands, a drunk virus, space hippies, flying gooey pancakes, and an android with a TRIBBLE.
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    rancidmojo wrote: »
    I'm fifty years old, retired from military service. I've met a lot of people from all over the world. No one I've ever met that has worked as a waiter or waitress (which includes my wife) has ever said they enjoyed it. But hey, maybe the elder Sisko actually met a handful of people that did, which is just as unbelievable as giant space amoebas.

    But then you run into another irksome issue...

    People can get anything they want for free. Why bother even going to Sisko's for a meal? I can have that meal in a holodeck, while indulging my fantasies! FOR FREE.

    I guess I couldn't go to Sisko's because the waiters and staff wuouldn't be there either. Why would they want to scuttle trays of food all night for other people to eat when they too can have whatever they want for free?

    Besides, they're breaking the "humans don't eat meat anymore" rule. Sisko sure wasn't cleaning those clams because he liked it so much. He even said if he didn't have to clean another on it would be too soon. Not to mention the giant steak Bashir ordered once.

    ....and the only way to reconcile that is "people in the 24th century, blah blah blah...." which doesn't reconcile anything. Its just a way to say the entire concept wasn't thought out very well. Because if it was they probably wouldn't have put it in. Its probably one of the reason's Gene got kicked upstairs during the first few seasons of TNG.

    They just weren't good ideas, and unnecessary to practically everything in any story. From a writing standpoint they're more of a detriment to creating or fleshing out characters and stories than not.

    Holodecks aren't free.

    I assume what you get for free is project housing with power and water, access to doctors, a basic replicator with nutritious food programmed in, and all the education you care for.

    If you want land, go to a colony. If you want more, work for it. If not, sit at home and watch TV or stage plays or write books or whatever you care to do.

    Holodecks/suites are rationed in Starfleet and clearly paid for outside of service. You could work long enough to buy one, I guess. Maybe some people do that. Maybe some people sign up for Starfleet just to get Holodeck time.

    Necessities are free. Not EVERYTHING is free.

    And like I say, they clearly have to have made a distinction between currency and money. Money is a borderline swear word. Credits are fine for them because there is no debt, only opportunity cost.

    Worst case, you run out of credits, you go back to your government flat and you pass your 140 years of life doing something... or nothing if you choose but you'll probably get a visit from a doctor if you choose that who will pester you into counseling.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,460 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Fortunately for us all, bernatk, you are not in fact the appointed Keeper of the Canon.

    The last things that we saw happen in the canon Prime timeline were the destruction of Romulus, and the loss of Ambassador Spock and his experimental craft in the massive singularity he created.

    Yes, this happened in an evil "JJTrek" movie. According to the Keepers of the Canon, who happen to be the people who own the material, it's still Prime canon.

    The other events of the movies are canon as well - just from a different quantum universe. (The TNG episode "Parallels" established that multiuniverse theory is correct in Trek - Worf kept sliding between different quantum universes, each with its own little twist on history.)

    I'm sorry this bothers you so much. I'm certainly glad I don't have the delusion that I control canon - otherwise I'd still be throwing hissyfits over the way TNG threw out everything John M. Ford wrote about the Klingons.
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  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 3,008 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    eldarion79 wrote: »
    I have always find it humorous that people cannot reconcile that there is an alternate universe despite it being a common theme in Star Trek. However, they can accept space amoebas, space whales, giant space hands, a drunk virus, space hippies, flying gooey pancakes, and an android with a TRIBBLE.

    Star Trek fans are notoriously stubborn...it took one and a half seasons before they considered TNG as real Trek
    Your pain runs deep.
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  • ashrod63ashrod63 Member Posts: 384 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    eldarion79 wrote: »
    I have always find it humorous that people cannot reconcile that there is an alternate universe despite it being a common theme in Star Trek. However, they can accept space amoebas, space whales, giant space hands, a drunk virus, space hippies, flying gooey pancakes, and an android with a TRIBBLE.


    An android is a humanoid machine based around the male anatomy... it makes perfect sense to give him certain organs, even if they don't work. Now, said android getting drunk, that's another matter.
  • jorantomalakjorantomalak Member Posts: 7,133 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    why not the abramsverse in STO after all the only thing cryptic and PWE care about is the bottom dollar.

    i dont like JJTrek but since the only thing im seeing coming from cryptic is money grabs after money grabs they might aswell jump the shark and put Abramsverse in STO.

    i suppose im just frustrated hoping and waiting for something good only to get dissappointed again
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    jonsills wrote: »
    Fortunately for us all, bernatk, you are not in fact the appointed Keeper of the Canon.

    The last things that we saw happen in the canon Prime timeline were the destruction of Romulus, and the loss of Ambassador Spock and his experimental craft in the massive singularity he created.

    Yes, this happened in an evil "JJTrek" movie. According to the Keepers of the Canon, who happen to be the people who own the material, it's still Prime canon.

    The other events of the movies are canon as well - just from a different quantum universe. (The TNG episode "Parallels" established that multiuniverse theory is correct in Trek - Worf kept sliding between different quantum universes, each with its own little twist on history.)

    I'm sorry this bothers you so much. I'm certainly glad I don't have the delusion that I control canon - otherwise I'd still be throwing hissyfits over the way TNG threw out everything John M. Ford wrote about the Klingons.

    As a sidebar, I'd like to revisit one of the worlds from Parallels in 2410. The Mirror Universe shouldn't get all the fun.

    The "Borg won" reality is a bit cliche and the comics did a great job of that one years ago.

    There's clearly one where the Cardassians were oppressed by the Bajorans, Picard was dead, and Worf and Troi had children. There's a series of things you could infer from that but with Picard dead, Shinzon wouldn't be created. No Shinzon -- a different political landscape for the Romulans which might have stopped Hakeev and saved Romulus.

    There's a whole host of things you could play with from there. Nero's child would be alive and 22 years old. Worf and Troi's kids are running around in their late 30s. The Cardassians are Federation members prior to the Bajoran wormhole being discovered so you have a different landscape for the Dominion War if there's even a war at all. (If there is, maybe the Bajorans were the Dominion's allies.)

    I think you might have the basis for something that is very different from the Mirror Universe.

    Imagine for a second that Captain Riker does unleash the Hugh virus and wipes out the Collective, as I think he'd be far more likely to do that than Picard. No Borg. No Dominion. No wormhole. Sisko resigns from Starfleet because Picard isn't there to talk him into staying -- and this also leads to an enhancement of the Romulan threat. No Cardassian threat and therefore no Maquis which means no Voyager and therefore no Undine.

    The Galaxy-style design continues to expand and evolve. Even bigger ships. More curved. More families aboard. Meanwhile, the Romulan Empire expands.

    You have some kind of joint alliance of a very powerful but not-too-agile Federation and Klingon Empire against a very powerful Romulus that is still intact.

    In some ways maybe evolving to be the other side of the Mirror Universe reflected from us. A Starfleet so wrapped up in progress that it is losing its humanity. Not necessarily good so much as dangerously benign and clinical. Not evil like the Mirror Universe is in a cackling sense but prepared to justify anything and everything with science.
  • ashrod63ashrod63 Member Posts: 384 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    why not the abramsverse in STO after all the only thing cryptic and PWE care about is the bottom dollar.

    i dont like JJTrek but since the only thing im seeing coming from cryptic is money grabs after money grabs they might aswell jump the shark and put Abramsverse in STO.

    i suppose im just frustrated hoping and waiting for something good only to get dissappointed again

    I think it would be a perfect opportunity for a future storyline, they don't need to make it explicit, just say it is an alternate timeline that is out of sync with the prime reality (obviously mentioning that Vulcan was destroyed at some point for the link). Gives them the opportunity to go back to the mid-24th century and see where JJ-Trek ends up affecting TNG, DS9 and Voyager (as the movies will no doubt stick to messing around with TOS).

    Of course they should spend the whole time TRIBBLE things up, just to "wind up the fans" (as ultimately it will please us to know that JJ-Trek is that bad).
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    ashrod63 wrote: »
    I think it would be a perfect opportunity for a future storyline, they don't need to make it explicit, just say it is an alternate timeline that is out of sync with the prime reality (obviously mentioning that Vulcan was destroyed at some point for the link). Gives them the opportunity to go back to the mid-24th century and see where JJ-Trek ends up affecting TNG, DS9 and Voyager (as the movies will no doubt stick to messing around with TOS).

    Of course they should spend the whole time TRIBBLE things up, just to "wind up the fans" (as ultimately it will please us to know that JJ-Trek is that bad).

    The J.J.-verse comics are doing this now.

    Q visited Prime Universe Picard to tell him that Spock was alive and then has proceeded to mess with New Kirk and crew by shunting them forward to a J.J.-verse 24th century where Sisko is a criminal and the J.J.-verse Dominion has won.
  • ashrod63ashrod63 Member Posts: 384 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    The J.J.-verse comics are doing this now.

    Q visited Prime Universe Picard to tell him that Spock was alive and then has proceeded to mess with New Kirk and crew by shunting them forward to a J.J.-verse 24th century where Sisko is a criminal and the J.J.-verse Dominion has won.

    Perfect place to start the story then. ;)
  • rancidmojorancidmojo Member Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Holodecks aren't free.

    I support that. I was only commenting on another poster's message concerning "free".
    I assume what you get for free is project housing with power and water, access to doctors, a basic replicator with nutritious food programmed in, and all the education you care for.

    If you want land, go to a colony. If you want more, work for it. If not, sit at home and watch TV or stage plays or write books or whatever you care to do.

    Holodecks/suites are rationed in Starfleet and clearly paid for outside of service. You could work long enough to buy one, I guess. Maybe some people do that. Maybe some people sign up for Starfleet just to get Holodeck time.

    Necessities are free. Not EVERYTHING is free.

    And like I say, they clearly have to have made a distinction between currency and money. Money is a borderline swear word. Credits are fine for them because there is no debt, only opportunity cost.

    Worst case, you run out of credits, you go back to your government flat and you pass your 140 years of life doing something... or nothing if you choose but you'll probably get a visit from a doctor if you choose that who will pester you into counseling.

    That's not a bad way to put things. My problem was the idea that no one works for money and all of the lofty stuff they say about it. They way you describe it people work for currency, which without going into the dictionary description of the words, is money. Maybe the word money has become a bit of a foul word, and that's okay. People still work for it.

    Or at least they should. They never explain how it works on the shows, which only makes it sound more ridiculous there. I think its because they put less thought into it than you did in one simple post.

    I won't even go into how the heck any government is supposed to function without some kind of currency. Again, they would have been better off not even mentioning it since they've contradicted it enough. If JJ kills the idea in new trek he might make me a fan of it.
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,980 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    why not the abramsverse in STO after all the only thing cryptic and PWE care about is the bottom dollar.

    And paramount didn't? If Star Trek didn't become a massive syndicated success do you think they would have bothered bringing it back? If they weren't trying to go after the market Star Wars created do you think we would have ever had a movie? No, because this series wasn't made out of charity just as this game isn't. Its an economic enterprise.
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  • moonshadowdarkmoonshadowdark Member Posts: 1,899 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Of course the Abramsverse is not STO. We're the Prime Universe. That's the Abramsverse. It's why we call it the Abramsverse. It's a different universe!
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