Spock is a half-Vulcan who grew up on Vulcan, even if he did spend some time on Earth at the academy he may not have learned of the Eugenics War.
If Starfleet academy is like most military schools...history would be a big subject. I never went to the Naval Academy but in my first 7 years in the Navy I had to know the dates and significance of every major naval battle from WW2 all the way back to the Revolutionary War.
and Spock is a science officer and would have had to know about major discoveries and their history. I believe tampering with the genetic make up of beings is illegal and both Kirk and Spock would know why and how that law came into place.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
As I said though, the name has become synonymous with the man, he just needs to say "I'm Khan" and they know instantly who he is talking about (obviously you would question whether it was true or not, but he'd know who he was talking about).
I really don't want to resort to making the comparison to the WWII German leader who Khan has been compared to in the show out of respect for internet etiquette, but that is exactly what we are looking at. If it was that man declaring who he was, you'd know instantly who it was, you wouldn't believe him, but you'd know who he was claiming to be, mainly because nobody would dare associate themselves with the name in the time afterwards. That's the situation in the Star Trek universe. Everyone knows who "Khan" is, because there is only one man anyone would even think of when that name is uttered.
Doesn't really matter, I've now lost the argument for making the comparison, but hopefully my point has gotten across.
When I imagine Kahn saying that he was surgically modified, I imagine the reason being because he is not Ricardo. If a tall muscular Asian or African said "I'm Hler ", your first reaction would be somewhere between your parents named you poorly, to what did I just hear? To is this guy for real? To this guy needs a large dose of anti-psychotics.
Sorry but if you are complaining about Kirk breaking rules...then really you have no leg to stand on...Kirk was known as a rule breaker...it's just in the JJ verse he gets called out for it.
Tos Kirk broke the rules occasionally, JJ Kirk is a bull in a China shop.
Tos Kirk broke the rules occasionally, JJ Kirk is a bull in a China shop.
And TOS!Kirk had the benefit of growing up in a stable household, with his mother's daily guidance and the example of his father whenever George came home on leave.
JJ!Kirk grew up with his mother off-planet most of the time, in the care of an abusive father, and with no strong ethical guidance in his youth. Considering how reckless TOS!Kirk was, it's a wonder JJ!Kirk wasn't in jail in his very first scene.
Then JJ!Kirk managed to wangle an appointment to Starfleet Academy without any of the usual prep work, on the say-so of Capt. Pike. Then he got jumped six grades in rank because he did something right once (while repeatedly breaking the rules en route to that point). Is it any wonder he starts off the second film thinking he can do no wrong?
And I have to give a tiny amount of credit to the script there - he was called to account, even if the totality of his punishment was to be demoted to Commander and first officer of the Enterprise (rather than drummed out of the service and sentenced to rehabilitation, as he deserved at that point). He did have to rethink his whole "shoot first and have someone else ask questions later" attitude; it's my (forlorn) hope that in the next movie, the character will have been permitted to grow up at least a little.
There are a lot of weaknesses in the character portrayal - every one of which lies at the feet of Orci and Kurtzman. (Which is why my hope is forlorn; word is that Robert Orci will actually be helming the next movie, as well as writing it. At least he and Alex Kurtzman broke up - maybe it'll only be half as bad as I fear.)
When I imagine Kahn saying that he was surgically modified, I imagine the reason being because he is not Ricardo. If a tall muscular Asian or African said "I'm Hler ", your first reaction would be somewhere between your parents named you poorly, to what did I just hear? To is this guy for real? To this guy needs a large dose of anti-psychotics.
And TOS!Kirk had the benefit of growing up in a stable household, with his mother's daily guidance and the example of his father whenever George came home on leave.
JJ!Kirk grew up with his mother off-planet most of the time, in the care of an abusive father, and with no strong ethical guidance in his youth. Considering how reckless TOS!Kirk was, it's a wonder JJ!Kirk wasn't in jail in his very first scene.
Then JJ!Kirk managed to wangle an appointment to Starfleet Academy without any of the usual prep work, on the say-so of Capt. Pike. Then he got jumped six grades in rank because he did something right once (while repeatedly breaking the rules en route to that point). Is it any wonder he starts off the second film thinking he can do no wrong?
And I have to give a tiny amount of credit to the script there - he was called to account, even if the totality of his punishment was to be demoted to Commander and first officer of the Enterprise (rather than drummed out of the service and sentenced to rehabilitation, as he deserved at that point). He did have to rethink his whole "shoot first and have someone else ask questions later" attitude; it's my (forlorn) hope that in the next movie, the character will have been permitted to grow up at least a little.
There are a lot of weaknesses in the character portrayal - every one of which lies at the feet of Orci and Kurtzman. (Which is why my hope is forlorn; word is that Robert Orci will actually be helming the next movie, as well as writing it. At least he and Alex Kurtzman broke up - maybe it'll only be half as bad as I fear.)
a lot of that seems to follow the Prime universe with a JJ Abrams twist. Prime Kirk is said to be the youngest captain when he received command of Enterprise...which means he promoted early of had a friend in the admiralty.
Sure JJ Kirk probably should have been kicked out of the service but he did save Earth in the last movie...and that probably went into the decision to keep him as a commander under Pike...so he could keep him in line....which is similar to how Kirk and crew assaulted Star fleet officers, sabotaged Excelsior (a high crime), stole a ship, destroyed the ship, went to a quarantined planet and aggravated the Klingons and almost spark a Klingon/Fed war...but all gets swept under the rug since Kirk saved the planet and he got a brand new ship with a new paint job.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Khan Noonien Singh was the least offensive of the augmented tyrants While he did seize power and curtail his subjects freedoms he never committed internal massacres or wars of aggression. He never committed any atrocities that would burn his name into the annals of history. Even Memory Alpha describes him as the best of tyrants.
It's far more likely he would be recognized by his full name or last name rather than simply his first name, because Khan is a common last name in Central and South Asia.
as I mentioned before...watch that scene again...Kirk doesn't recognize Khan.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Khan Noonien Singh was the least offensive of the augmented tyrants While he did seize power and curtail his subjects freedoms he never committed internal massacres or wars of aggression. He never committed any atrocities that would burn his name into the annals of history. Even Memory Alpha describes him as the best of tyrants.
It's far more likely he would be recognized by his full name or last name rather than simply his first name, because Khan is a common last name in Central and South Asia.
As Spock rightly pointed out in "Space Seed" while Kirk et al. were busy fawning all over the guy, saying somebody was the "best of tyrants" is a little like saying somebody is the "worst of the best". It doesn't make him a good guy, it just makes him a little less bad. Benito Mussolini generally avoided massive purges and even tried to restrain Hitler early on, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a dickhead. His name may be less remembered than Hitler or Stalin, but it's still remembered.
I'll also point out that Khan's name is remembered when none of the other tyrants are.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
As Spock rightly pointed out in "Space Seed" while Kirk et al. were busy fawning all over the guy, saying somebody was the "best of tyrants" is a little like saying somebody is the "worst of the best". It doesn't make him a good guy, it just makes him a little less bad. Benito Mussolini generally avoided massive purges and even tried to restrain Hitler early on, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a dickhead. His name may be less remembered than Hitler or Stalin, but it's still remembered.
agreed...being the best of the tyrants...that's like getting kicked in the balls 5 times and saying the fourth time didnt hurt as much.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
And if you read the person I was quoting and responding to, his argument is that people would automatically recognize him by mere mention of his first name.
I was offering valid reasons why he wouldn't automatically be recognized by mention of his first name, especially after a couple hundred years.
However, later they give his full name, the significance of which should've been recognized without Alt!Spock having to invoke Prime!Spock.
Also, why hasn't this thread been kicked down to Ten Forward yet?
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I may not make the connection to Kim, Pol, Vladimir, Chiang, Mao, or Ho but I sure as hell recognize the names Kim Jong-Il, Pol Pot, Vladimir Lenin, Chiang Kai-shek, Mao Zedong, and Ho Chi Minh.
STO is prime universe, after the hobus event but not taking place where the new movies are as Paramount owns those not CBS and STO is licensed by CBS.
/Closed
Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care. Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker. Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
Comments
If Starfleet academy is like most military schools...history would be a big subject. I never went to the Naval Academy but in my first 7 years in the Navy I had to know the dates and significance of every major naval battle from WW2 all the way back to the Revolutionary War.
and Spock is a science officer and would have had to know about major discoveries and their history. I believe tampering with the genetic make up of beings is illegal and both Kirk and Spock would know why and how that law came into place.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
When I imagine Kahn saying that he was surgically modified, I imagine the reason being because he is not Ricardo. If a tall muscular Asian or African said "I'm Hler ", your first reaction would be somewhere between your parents named you poorly, to what did I just hear? To is this guy for real? To this guy needs a large dose of anti-psychotics.
More apt to be something like this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Tos Kirk broke the rules occasionally, JJ Kirk is a bull in a China shop.
JJ!Kirk grew up with his mother off-planet most of the time, in the care of an abusive father, and with no strong ethical guidance in his youth. Considering how reckless TOS!Kirk was, it's a wonder JJ!Kirk wasn't in jail in his very first scene.
Then JJ!Kirk managed to wangle an appointment to Starfleet Academy without any of the usual prep work, on the say-so of Capt. Pike. Then he got jumped six grades in rank because he did something right once (while repeatedly breaking the rules en route to that point). Is it any wonder he starts off the second film thinking he can do no wrong?
And I have to give a tiny amount of credit to the script there - he was called to account, even if the totality of his punishment was to be demoted to Commander and first officer of the Enterprise (rather than drummed out of the service and sentenced to rehabilitation, as he deserved at that point). He did have to rethink his whole "shoot first and have someone else ask questions later" attitude; it's my (forlorn) hope that in the next movie, the character will have been permitted to grow up at least a little.
There are a lot of weaknesses in the character portrayal - every one of which lies at the feet of Orci and Kurtzman. (Which is why my hope is forlorn; word is that Robert Orci will actually be helming the next movie, as well as writing it. At least he and Alex Kurtzman broke up - maybe it'll only be half as bad as I fear.)
I don't doubt it, you'd definitely know who he was talking about though, although you would probably be calling in some men in white coats as well.
a lot of that seems to follow the Prime universe with a JJ Abrams twist. Prime Kirk is said to be the youngest captain when he received command of Enterprise...which means he promoted early of had a friend in the admiralty.
Sure JJ Kirk probably should have been kicked out of the service but he did save Earth in the last movie...and that probably went into the decision to keep him as a commander under Pike...so he could keep him in line....which is similar to how Kirk and crew assaulted Star fleet officers, sabotaged Excelsior (a high crime), stole a ship, destroyed the ship, went to a quarantined planet and aggravated the Klingons and almost spark a Klingon/Fed war...but all gets swept under the rug since Kirk saved the planet and he got a brand new ship with a new paint job.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
as I mentioned before...watch that scene again...Kirk doesn't recognize Khan.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
As Spock rightly pointed out in "Space Seed" while Kirk et al. were busy fawning all over the guy, saying somebody was the "best of tyrants" is a little like saying somebody is the "worst of the best". It doesn't make him a good guy, it just makes him a little less bad. Benito Mussolini generally avoided massive purges and even tried to restrain Hitler early on, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a dickhead. His name may be less remembered than Hitler or Stalin, but it's still remembered.
I'll also point out that Khan's name is remembered when none of the other tyrants are.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
agreed...being the best of the tyrants...that's like getting kicked in the balls 5 times and saying the fourth time didnt hurt as much.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Okay, I'll give you that one. Khan is actually a reasonably common name in central Asia (blame the Mongols).
However, later they give his full name, the significance of which should've been recognized without Alt!Spock having to invoke Prime!Spock.
Also, why hasn't this thread been kicked down to Ten Forward yet?
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Excellently said
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B22Uy7SBe4&feature=youtube_gdata_player
It has always been, from the start, that STO falls within what we could call the prime universe whereas the reboots are in an alternate universe.
In STP Spock is gone, presumed dead after the Hobus disaster.
STO is prime universe, after the hobus event but not taking place where the new movies are as Paramount owns those not CBS and STO is licensed by CBS.
/Closed
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