There shouldn't be any Ensign Slots and we should be able to use all 4 slots available to our Commanders (Tac, Sci and Eng (or soon to be Captain Bridge Officers) Just seems so limited even with Tier 6.
If your using beams and your want your tac officer to use the two settings for beams and then you have torpedo's that has two settings. I don't want to end up with just being able to choose for one of each settings. Same with Engineer and Sci. Just seem odd to through in Ensign slot.
Other points of interest
With all these videos on Youtube showing what are the new mission prizes so I take it that Mark 12 Very Rare will be on Tier 6 Ship Weapons by default are they coming with less gear. That's another issue. That's why I had mentioned to show a visual of what they have installed. Of course you can change or ditch those gear.
And, I'll say that the PvP community has, yet again, been "misunderstood" in their activities...
To wit: T5U11 with "cheese" console (thinking SIC here, and all the other mostly lockbox consoles that PvP has "banned" due to being OP) vs a T6 without said console (can't "afford" to slot it due to 10 console limit) = "competitive with equal player skill in 1v1"... Which, technically, means that said T5U11 + cheese = Competitive...
With the fact that Cryptic "barely" recognizes the differences between tiers (aka, they do so only when it suits them, like the T5.5 "lockbox" grade being better than T5+1 C-store to drive lockbox sales - but when it comes time to state "PvP competitiveness" they say T5 = T5...) this leads to the statement "All of T5 will be competitive with T6 at all times" - and even then, they did not use the word "all" - giving them the wiggle room to slap all the conditions on... (is this where I'm supposed to facepalm?)
And yet, to meet the almighty "there's gonna be a reason to buy T6 instead of rolling only with T5U" - obvious power creep is obvious. No "power" console (aka PvP ordained as OP)? Not up to T6 par. Power console on CD? Better evade, you're not up to T6.
And before the "extra hull & shields help the situation" commentary - really, when the opposition's doing even 10k DPS, having a "combined" 10,000 bonus differential between the T5U11 and the T6 is "only" one second - at most 4 for one volley to start...
Because of cooldowns, I've factored that the "average" clicky-power console = ensign slot. The "average" OP console could equal LtCmdr slot by that logic. Therefore, is this Cryptic saying "T5Us better start slotting all the consoles we've build, OP or not", or is there going to be a cooldown reducer available on the T5Us (special console slot?) to make the "average" console closer in effect to the LtCmdr slot?
I can totally see what you're saying. I had been starting to come round to the idea that the extra console slot and hp would be about equal with the 13th boff power (provided said power was ensign or even leutenant level), and "bell's and whistles" of T6's.
It was stretching it when they announced the built in intel abilities and built in cloak. The final nail in the coffin of competitiveness was the discovery that the 13th boff power was a LT.Com. At that, my mind went to the same place yours did: that is, using the 11th console slot for something like Antimatter Spread to combat the hideous T6 menace.
But then came the killing blow to my dreams of keeping my beloved canon T5's competitive: Fleet versions of T6's have been confirmed as en-route, probably within a month or two of launch i should think. By extension, this means there is no more trade off whatosever.
Fleet T6's will have 11 consoles also (and probably at least comparable HP), while still having the extra LtCom power, ability to slot intelligence boffs, intel ship abilities, built in cloak and excellent mobility.
I wish we could keep our T5's competitive in the way you suggest, I really do. But sadly, Fleet T6's will be able to do the exact same thing only with a dozen other substantial advantages.
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basically that "fleet intel ship t6" thing scared me too. if t5u ~ t6, then t5u is defenetely not competitive anymore whatsoever with fleet-t6 intels.
BUT
aside from pvp ship hp/shields hp is totally wayne for suceeding in pvE. you can run over dps of a bad t5u/t6 player with a t4ship with ease. so. basically wayne.
so but just for the sake of argument of devalueing bought ships: maybe they will release t6 versions of cstoreships as fleetships once again within the shipyard starvbase system for modules.
they wont tell us that now, because basically they wouldnt sell any intel ship anymore ;-)
the only thing that really may bug us is, that we have to pay again and again and again for sth we already paid for. but since this game has to make money, its kind of ... logic. they needed to find a way to "resell" things cause stfans are kind of sticking to their favorites.
as long as the prices stay around one fleetmodule for t5u and another one later for t5u->fleet-t6 version of that ship, im okay with it. its nothing you cant get just by playing.
so basically ... its kind of "okay" its not the nicest turn, but they have to make money. staying at t5 forever would have turned out terrible as well, cause you know, besides from having 2 commanders ship layouts, everything else is already there. so it gets boring.
the pvp part is kind of a problem, but since 1on1 isnt the usual pvp case it "may" be less problematic. (could be compared with different ilvl pvp gear of wow, it kind of sucks if 1on1 happens between t17 pvp and a newbee but its not a standardcase...)
But then came the killing blow to my dreams of keeping my beloved canon T5's competitive: Fleet versions of T6's have been confirmed as en-route, probably within a month or two of launch i should think. By extension, this means there is no more trade off whatosever.
Fleet T6's will have 11 consoles also (and probably at least comparable HP), while still having the extra LtCom power, ability to slot intelligence boffs, intel ship abilities, built in cloak and excellent mobility.
As posted earlier, the only T6 that has extra lt.cmdr is the fed/klink cruiser. all other only get ensign slot.
Looks like all Lcdr slots to me, unless your only comparing these ships to the Fleet Patrol Refit in which case you gain an ensign, or the Fleet Norgh, in which case you gain an Ensign and a console...
Compare the ships to their T5 counterparts, and see that all of them gain a Lcdr boffskill by comparison...
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Ships aren't just gear, they're our avatars in space. People choose the ship they like the best and fly it.
We already have two sets of gear -- a kit and three pieces of equipment for our characters, and then a crapload of weapons and consoles for our ships. Upgrading that is all perfectly reasonable. Being forced out of our ships, less so.
Sorry but ships is gear. you can change it at will so long as you have the levels, zen and/or money. your avatar is the character you make at character creation.
if it isnt gear you'd still be in your t1 ship.
As for it being your avatar in space... your avatar changes depending on what ship you have slotted as being active.
Pretty gross. Even leaving aside T6-fleet (which everyone should have expected at some point), the large boff disparity (extra lt candor power compared to every non-carrier/DD/Tempest tier-5) and complete inaccessibility to the intelligence (and likely all future) subclass powers makes T5-U only nominally competitive.
You want to restrict subclasses to T6? Fine, I guess. But why the boff disparity? Hell, why any disparity AT ALL? Let T5 and T5-fleets be upgradeable to full T6 with all the bells and whistles, make it cost more than the T5-U upgrade is planned to cost, and BOOM! Problem solved. All the rage evaporates.
I'm hoping that we find out some information on the non-Intel T6 ships today.
I am really not all that worried about the Fleet T6 that will be coming down the line. More than likely, they will re-release Fleet T6 versions of some of our favorite hero ships. There's too much to be made for them not to.
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the only intel ships that get lt cmdr is the klink and fed cruiser, all others only get universal ensign.
intel escrot is the fleet patrol refit, gets additional engsin, loses univeral lt.cmdr
intel sci is voth palisade gets universal ensign, losing all other universals.
intel warbird is undine nicor, losing all higher universals for added engsin.
boff seats wont change with fleet upgrade.
Those ships are the exceptions not the standard. The baseline for T5 since launch has been 1 commander station, 1 lieutenant commander station, 2 lieutenant stations, 1 ensign station, and 9 consoles. The intel ships show the baseline for T6, all of them feature 1 commander station, 2 lieutenant commander stations, 1 lieutenant station, 1 ensign station, and 10 consoles. If you compare baseline to baseline the improvement from T5 to T6 is one extra lieutenant commander boff power and one extra console.
The extra boff power is a lieutenant commander power and that's what makes these T6 ships far above T5U 11 console ships, and especially T5U 10 console ships.
That extra lieutenant commander? That's a Gravity Well, or BO3, or FAW3, or High Yield, or Spread, or Aux to X, or Emergency Power to X, or Team X 3, or Attack Pattern X, or whatever. Is anyone even going to claim that better base stats and an 11th console that either further boosts those stats or is a clickable power with a long cool down is competitive with a second lieutenant commander level boff power?
Those ships you listed as examples? They're already considered some of the best Tier 5 ships in the game because of what that second lieutenant commander boff power does for them. How are upgrade ships supposed to be competitive against that?
I'm hoping that we find out some information on the non-Intel T6 ships today.
I am really not all that worried about the Fleet T6 that will be coming down the line. More than likely, they will re-release Fleet T6 versions of some of our favorite hero ships. There's too much to be made for them not to.
Quite possible as the steamrunner, odyssey, bortas and scimitar are all begging for their fleet versions to come out.
Sorry but ships is gear. you can change it at will so long as you have the levels, zen and/or money. your avatar is the character you make at character creation.
if it isnt gear you'd still be in your t1 ship.
As for it being your avatar in space... your avatar changes depending on what ship you have slotted as being active.
Nein.
Ships are your space class, they are not gear. CLASS decides what gear you can slot, and what skills you can use. What decides that in space? Your SHIP, NOT YOUR CAREER. In space what items you can slot (number of consoles, weapons, cannons or not, secondary deflector or no, etc.) depends on your ship, and the vast majority of the skills you can use? Those are you BOff abilities, and what decides those? The BOff seating of your ship.
So no, no your ship is not gear. Your ship is who you are in space. Hell, occasionally when the game bugs out it's who you are on ground maps too...
Pretty gross. Even leaving aside T6-fleet (which everyone should have expected at some point), the large boff disparity (extra lt candor power compared to every non-carrier/DD/Tempest tier-5) and complete inaccessibility to the intelligence (and likely all future) subclass powers makes T5-U only nominally competitive.
You want to restrict subclasses to T6? Fine, I guess. But why the boff disparity? Hell, why any disparity AT ALL? Let T5 and T5-fleets be upgradeable to full T6 with all the bells and whistles, make it cost more than the T5-U upgrade is planned to cost, and BOOM! Problem solved. All the rage evaporates.
Yeah, this may help. 4k Zen upgrade would be pricier than 0.5k , but if it was a full upgrade....
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
still really want to know if they can use the base materials and skins or are locked like the dyson ships ?
also really wish the intelligence ships were all set to commander universal/intelligence since they are supposed to be a versatile ship class, it would also solve some of the seating insanity or lack of tac console spots on some of them.
I mean really who really needs 7+ engineering officer ability's ??? I mean ideally for me its like 6 tac abilities, 3+ science and 2+ engineering....
The intelligence abilities might kinda help offset some of it but they should all have at least a lt. com uni if not commander uni spot.
The boff seating on the scryer better be a bug. As it stands, it has an additional lieutenant commander slot that no other ships have- for a total of 16 abilities. That's pretty unbalanced vs the other tier 6 ships and tier 5us as well, in my opinion.
Ships are your space class, they are not gear. CLASS decides what gear you can slot, and what skills you can use. What decides that in space? Your SHIP, NOT YOUR CAREER. In space what items you can slot (number of consoles, weapons, cannons or not, secondary deflector or no, etc.) depends on your ship, and the vast majority of the skills you can use? Those are you BOff abilities, and what decides those? The BOff seating of your ship.
So no, no your ship is not gear. Your ship is who you are in space. Hell, occasionally when the game bugs out it's who you are on ground maps too...
While I think you could argue the finer points of it, I think I lean more toward this side. Yes, the character is the main figure, but also yes, the ship is a big part of this game. While you can switch ships at will, most put in the time and effort to truly customize it. I don't mean just with ship materials (which cryptic seems to think is a valid alternative to parts-swapping options -- it isn't!), but in weapons, consoles, boffs, the style in which you fly, pets, etc.
The ships in this game are not just a pile of stats. They're stats until you unpack them, name them, and start working on them. After that, they're part of your character.
I'm either slightly confused or missing something obvious - T6 is meant to have 11 console slots, so why do the ship stats for all vessels only list 10 for each ship? Is one being left out to account for the on board console?
Because your starting premise is flawed.
Tier 6 is meant to have 10 console slots.
Tier 5 has 9.
This fact has been skewed by all of the Tier 5+ lockbox, Vice Admiral level C-Store, and fleet ships over the past few years but all base Tier 5 vessels are nine consoles.
It's the same through the BOFFs. Each tier your ship's BOFF slots got a promotion. At tier 4 you had one commander and three lieutenants. At tier five one of the lieutenants got promoted to Lieutenant Commander, and a new ensign came aboard. Now a Lieutenant has been promoted and the ensign decided to cross train so to speak.
Ships are your space class, they are not gear. CLASS decides what gear you can slot, and what skills you can use. What decides that in space? Your SHIP, NOT YOUR CAREER. In space what items you can slot (number of consoles, weapons, cannons or not, secondary deflector or no, etc.) depends on your ship, and the vast majority of the skills you can use? Those are you BOff abilities, and what decides those? The BOff seating of your ship.
So no, no your ship is not gear. Your ship is who you are in space. Hell, occasionally when the game bugs out it's who you are on ground maps too...
While I understand your point about the paramount importance of the ship in space combat I have to disagree based on this argument.
If the ship was purely your avatar and your space class you wouldn't be able to change it.
You physical ground avatar is Science, Tactical, or Engineer from cradle to the grave. Forever. You can't respec or anything.
You can change your ship anytime you're in sector space or on a social space map. What ship you use is FAR more variable than your character. It's a multiple level version definitely. Swapping your ship's set is the same as swapping your kit to a point. But so is changing what ship you're flying.
An engineer can fly any cruiser, science ship, or escort they like. But it's still the engineer.
So with respect it's much more gear than avatar.
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I'm also quite troubled by the announced intention to have fleet tier 6 ships. Sure, we all knew that was going to happen eventually, but we expected that to take awhile, and maybe we'd be getting something to compensate, just like the upgrade path for tier 5 is supposed to compensate for the tier 6 ships abilities.
If you release fleet versions of these ships, there better be ANOTHER upgrade for tier 5us, or they will be completely obsolete.
It's important to keep your promises. And it's important to not try to cram all your player base into the new ships. There's simply not enough of them, so it'd be boring. And some of us like our old ships.
Don't get me wrong. I'm okay with having to buy stuff. If you make tier 6 fleet versions of the existing ships and we have to pay full price for it, to me at least that would be acceptable. But there better be a tier 6 version of EVERY ship, then- in particular, lockbox and lobi ships.
The fleet ships will make your claim that jem-hadar ships would be upgraded to tier 6 capabilities, well, laughable. As it stands it is simply incorrect- the tier 6 ships include some capabilities that tier 5us will not. Whether or not it is COMPETITIVE is open for debate, whether or not it has the capabilities is not. I know a lot of people got those ships during the promotion- don't turn around and slap them in the face after what you promised but making tier 6 fleet ships that they won't be remotely competitive with.
You could at least throw us a bone. Some of us think the new ships are ugly. Why not let us use our existing ships as a skin? Then at least we'd be keeping SOME of what we wanted.
I'm hoping that we find out some information on the non-Intel T6 ships today.
I am really not all that worried about the Fleet T6 that will be coming down the line. More than likely, they will re-release Fleet T6 versions of some of our favorite hero ships. There's too much to be made for them not to.
I think that would really see a lot of longtime players walk away. Seems like people are already experiencing fatigue from the double dip, upgrade to fleet and now to fleet 5U. Having to pay full outright for the same ship fully again and then it's fleet version would set some people over the edge.
Hey has any one bothered to look at the hull strenght of these ships . Are you kinding me with these stats at level 50, some of them couldn't match the base hull strenght of my current ships if a add consoles to them, some still won't match up at level 60. These ship are suppose to be the newest highest level ships in the game. Giving us a bunch of bells and whistles, and a pretty paint job isn't going to cut it if you weaken our ship hull. Lets face it we are already fighting ship and other entities that have hull strenghts in the millions that take teams to beat. Don't give us new stuff that is weaker than what we already have. I other words don't give us a GMC Gremlin with Ford Mustang badging and a fancy paint job, and tell us it's a Porsche Cayenne. I don't think anyone here just fell off the turnip truck.
While I understand your point about the paramount importance of the ship in space combat I have to disagree based on this argument.
If the ship was purely your avatar and your space class you wouldn't be able to change it.
You physical ground avatar is Science, Tactical, or Engineer from cradle to the grave. Forever. You can't respec or anything.
You can change your ship anytime you're in sector space or on a social space map. What ship you use is FAR more variable than your character. It's a multiple level version definitely. Swapping your ship's set is the same as swapping your kit to a point. But so is changing what ship you're flying.
An engineer can fly any cruiser, science ship, or escort they like. But it's still the engineer.
So with respect it's much more gear than avatar.
Again, nein
If your Captain is your Class in space, if that's your character... does slotting a new phaser into his paper doll effect your damage in space? No it doesn't. All gear slotted into your captain does nothing. So where does slotting gear effect performance in space? Yeah that's right, into your ship's paper doll. Your ship effects your slottable gear, much like, say, being a Fighter as opposed to a mage will allow you to use Platemail.
What about skills? For the most part what decides what skills/spells you can choose? Captain Class? No, again it's ship. BOff slots decides what skills you can choose to slot. It makes up the vast bulk of what you can actually do in space, much like, say, choosing to be a Mage might allow you to choose a Fireball or Lightning Bolt to add to your repertoire.
What about Stats? Like hitpoints, speed, stuff like that? All ship. Your choice of Captain has no effect on it. You might suggest that Captain Skills can effect your space performance but, guess what? All SPACE skills are generic, making Captain Career irrelevant, again all that effects is ground performance. Doesn't that kind of remind you of, say, a Fighter getting more hitpoints than a Mage? Again, all Class stuff.
Being able to change ships is irrelevant. I can hit the character swap screen and go from a Federation Human Tactical Officer to a Klingon KDF Science Officer.... does that mean my Captain isn't my character, that my account is because that's the only thing that doesn't change? No, it just means I swapped characters. Same in space. How easy and the method of swapping is irrelevant. Hell, there are plenty of party-based RPGs where you can design surplus characters and swap among your roster at Inns and the like... so? Swapping characters is a facet of some RPGs, this just happens to be one of them when it comes to the Space game.
An Engineer can fly any ship, but that has zero effect on your gear, zero effect on what abilities you can choose to slot, zero effect on your stats (HP/hull, turn rate, shield modifier, Inertia, etc.). Basically every fundamental aspect of how your avatar, the representation in-game you control (which is unarguably your ship in space), interacts with the environment is based on ship not captain. All captain effects is a comparatively tiny number of abilities, literally nothing else.
In space, an Engineer in an Escort is closer to a Tactical Officer in an Escort than he is to an Engineer in a Cruiser.
So what does that mean? Your career becomes beyond secondary, and goes all the way to a tertiary concern in space. It doesn't have anything close to the fundamental impact that Class does, it does not define your character, nor their role merely doles out a few minor abilities making it closer to a "Specialization" system than a Class during the Space game.
I'm also quite troubled by the announced intention to have fleet tier 6 ships. Sure, we all knew that was going to happen eventually, but we expected that to take awhile, and maybe we'd be getting something to compensate, just like the upgrade path for tier 5 is supposed to compensate for the tier 6 ships abilities.
I think people are reading way too much into the mention of T6 Fleet ships. They are not coming soon after DR..they are coming after DR...I suspect that maybe six months to a year away or more.
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First, a BIG +1 to everything happyhappyj0yj0y has said on ships being closer to our character class in space than gear. I think this observation is correct.
Second, I still think T6-Fleet is a red herring. Yes, it's comparatively worse that T5-U will lose its only comparative advantage to T6 in the form of Hull/Shields/11th console once T6-Fleet is released. HOWEVER, T5-U still loses on BOFF options/flexibility (no opportunity for Intel powers, or whatever future sub-profession powers are introduced, as implied will happen) and number of BOFF powers (lacking that 3rd Lt. Cmdr. power is a HUGE disadvantage)
And again, while you could PROBABLY live without Intel powers (although lack of reliable Intel cleansing without IT, and the fact that few players willingly sacrifice access to Sci/Eng/Tac powers on ships with BOFF universal seatings affording such omissions, suggest this could be a bigger deal than appears), I don't see the logic in forcing players who are otherwise paying for T5-U to live without the extra BOFF power.
I'm curious about whether the Penetrating Scan and Expose Vulnerability debuffs have any counters (abilities that clear these effects). I didn't see it mentioned in the blog.
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I think people are reading way too much into the mention of T6 Fleet ships. They are not coming soon after DR..they are coming after DR...I suspect that maybe six months to a year away or more.
I'd be absolutely shocked if T6 Fleet aren't here before the end of the year. It just seems to be how things are going.
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One other thing, I'm not sure if anyone else has brought this up, I could have easily missed it buried in the 300+ posts so far but...
Has it occurred to anyone else that once we see the "normal" T6 ships, we'll really find out just how much difference there will be between T5-U and T6?
Right now, these Intelligence ships have lower hull and higher turn rate and some other stat differences that the "normal T6's may not have. Along with probably not having the Intelligence BOff seating. These T6 Intel ships are a new sub-species of a new breed of ships. We won't know exactly what the new ships might be capable of until we see the stats for the Guardian Cruiser, the MaHa Raptor and the Aelahl Warbird. These ships are what we should be comparing the T5-U's to, not directly to the Intel ships.
I'm still very leery about just how the T5 upgrades are going to be handled, but I am willing to wait until the information is released for everything before making up my mind. Not to say I haven't formed opinions with what has been released thus far, but I am willing to wait and see everything before I pass final judgement.
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Comments
There shouldn't be any Ensign Slots and we should be able to use all 4 slots available to our Commanders (Tac, Sci and Eng (or soon to be Captain Bridge Officers) Just seems so limited even with Tier 6.
If your using beams and your want your tac officer to use the two settings for beams and then you have torpedo's that has two settings. I don't want to end up with just being able to choose for one of each settings. Same with Engineer and Sci. Just seem odd to through in Ensign slot.
Other points of interest
With all these videos on Youtube showing what are the new mission prizes so I take it that Mark 12 Very Rare will be on Tier 6 Ship Weapons by default are they coming with less gear. That's another issue. That's why I had mentioned to show a visual of what they have installed. Of course you can change or ditch those gear.
Time will only tell!
I can totally see what you're saying. I had been starting to come round to the idea that the extra console slot and hp would be about equal with the 13th boff power (provided said power was ensign or even leutenant level), and "bell's and whistles" of T6's.
It was stretching it when they announced the built in intel abilities and built in cloak. The final nail in the coffin of competitiveness was the discovery that the 13th boff power was a LT.Com. At that, my mind went to the same place yours did: that is, using the 11th console slot for something like Antimatter Spread to combat the hideous T6 menace.
But then came the killing blow to my dreams of keeping my beloved canon T5's competitive: Fleet versions of T6's have been confirmed as en-route, probably within a month or two of launch i should think. By extension, this means there is no more trade off whatosever.
Fleet T6's will have 11 consoles also (and probably at least comparable HP), while still having the extra LtCom power, ability to slot intelligence boffs, intel ship abilities, built in cloak and excellent mobility.
I wish we could keep our T5's competitive in the way you suggest, I really do. But sadly, Fleet T6's will be able to do the exact same thing only with a dozen other substantial advantages.
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BUT
aside from pvp ship hp/shields hp is totally wayne for suceeding in pvE. you can run over dps of a bad t5u/t6 player with a t4ship with ease. so. basically wayne.
so but just for the sake of argument of devalueing bought ships: maybe they will release t6 versions of cstoreships as fleetships once again within the shipyard starvbase system for modules.
they wont tell us that now, because basically they wouldnt sell any intel ship anymore ;-)
the only thing that really may bug us is, that we have to pay again and again and again for sth we already paid for. but since this game has to make money, its kind of ... logic. they needed to find a way to "resell" things cause stfans are kind of sticking to their favorites.
as long as the prices stay around one fleetmodule for t5u and another one later for t5u->fleet-t6 version of that ship, im okay with it. its nothing you cant get just by playing.
so basically ... its kind of "okay" its not the nicest turn, but they have to make money. staying at t5 forever would have turned out terrible as well, cause you know, besides from having 2 commanders ship layouts, everything else is already there. so it gets boring.
the pvp part is kind of a problem, but since 1on1 isnt the usual pvp case it "may" be less problematic. (could be compared with different ilvl pvp gear of wow, it kind of sucks if 1on1 happens between t17 pvp and a newbee but its not a standardcase...)
As posted earlier, the only T6 that has extra lt.cmdr is the fed/klink cruiser. all other only get ensign slot.
Don't worry I'm sure Cryptic will be happy to sell you some T6 hangar ships in the future.
Which blog did you read?
Phantom: Cdr, Lcdr, Lcdr, LT, Ens
Eclipse: Cdr, Lcdr, Lcdr, LT, Ens
Scryer: Cdr, Lcdr, Lcdr, LT, Ens (+1 Lcdr that is a confirmed typo)
Qib: Cdr, Lcdr, Lcdr, LT, Ens
Faeht: Cdr, Lcdr, Lcdr, LT, Ens
Looks like all Lcdr slots to me, unless your only comparing these ships to the Fleet Patrol Refit in which case you gain an ensign, or the Fleet Norgh, in which case you gain an Ensign and a console...
Compare the ships to their T5 counterparts, and see that all of them gain a Lcdr boffskill by comparison...
Apparently some forum posters have diplomatic immunity nowadays, where can I get mine? [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Sorry but ships is gear. you can change it at will so long as you have the levels, zen and/or money. your avatar is the character you make at character creation.
if it isnt gear you'd still be in your t1 ship.
As for it being your avatar in space... your avatar changes depending on what ship you have slotted as being active.
You want to restrict subclasses to T6? Fine, I guess. But why the boff disparity? Hell, why any disparity AT ALL? Let T5 and T5-fleets be upgradeable to full T6 with all the bells and whistles, make it cost more than the T5-U upgrade is planned to cost, and BOOM! Problem solved. All the rage evaporates.
I am really not all that worried about the Fleet T6 that will be coming down the line. More than likely, they will re-release Fleet T6 versions of some of our favorite hero ships. There's too much to be made for them not to.
Those ships are the exceptions not the standard. The baseline for T5 since launch has been 1 commander station, 1 lieutenant commander station, 2 lieutenant stations, 1 ensign station, and 9 consoles. The intel ships show the baseline for T6, all of them feature 1 commander station, 2 lieutenant commander stations, 1 lieutenant station, 1 ensign station, and 10 consoles. If you compare baseline to baseline the improvement from T5 to T6 is one extra lieutenant commander boff power and one extra console.
The extra boff power is a lieutenant commander power and that's what makes these T6 ships far above T5U 11 console ships, and especially T5U 10 console ships.
That extra lieutenant commander? That's a Gravity Well, or BO3, or FAW3, or High Yield, or Spread, or Aux to X, or Emergency Power to X, or Team X 3, or Attack Pattern X, or whatever. Is anyone even going to claim that better base stats and an 11th console that either further boosts those stats or is a clickable power with a long cool down is competitive with a second lieutenant commander level boff power?
Those ships you listed as examples? They're already considered some of the best Tier 5 ships in the game because of what that second lieutenant commander boff power does for them. How are upgrade ships supposed to be competitive against that?
Quite possible as the steamrunner, odyssey, bortas and scimitar are all begging for their fleet versions to come out.
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Nein.
Ships are your space class, they are not gear. CLASS decides what gear you can slot, and what skills you can use. What decides that in space? Your SHIP, NOT YOUR CAREER. In space what items you can slot (number of consoles, weapons, cannons or not, secondary deflector or no, etc.) depends on your ship, and the vast majority of the skills you can use? Those are you BOff abilities, and what decides those? The BOff seating of your ship.
So no, no your ship is not gear. Your ship is who you are in space. Hell, occasionally when the game bugs out it's who you are on ground maps too...
Yeah, this may help. 4k Zen upgrade would be pricier than 0.5k , but if it was a full upgrade....
also really wish the intelligence ships were all set to commander universal/intelligence since they are supposed to be a versatile ship class, it would also solve some of the seating insanity or lack of tac console spots on some of them.
I mean really who really needs 7+ engineering officer ability's ??? I mean ideally for me its like 6 tac abilities, 3+ science and 2+ engineering....
The intelligence abilities might kinda help offset some of it but they should all have at least a lt. com uni if not commander uni spot.
While I think you could argue the finer points of it, I think I lean more toward this side. Yes, the character is the main figure, but also yes, the ship is a big part of this game. While you can switch ships at will, most put in the time and effort to truly customize it. I don't mean just with ship materials (which cryptic seems to think is a valid alternative to parts-swapping options -- it isn't!), but in weapons, consoles, boffs, the style in which you fly, pets, etc.
The ships in this game are not just a pile of stats. They're stats until you unpack them, name them, and start working on them. After that, they're part of your character.
... to an extent.
I like the Eclipse and the Romulan and Klingon vessels. The Phantom and Scryer though...ugly.
I'm curious about another standing issue for players in this game. Typhoon and Jupiter anyone?
Because your starting premise is flawed.
Tier 6 is meant to have 10 console slots.
Tier 5 has 9.
This fact has been skewed by all of the Tier 5+ lockbox, Vice Admiral level C-Store, and fleet ships over the past few years but all base Tier 5 vessels are nine consoles.
It's the same through the BOFFs. Each tier your ship's BOFF slots got a promotion. At tier 4 you had one commander and three lieutenants. At tier five one of the lieutenants got promoted to Lieutenant Commander, and a new ensign came aboard. Now a Lieutenant has been promoted and the ensign decided to cross train so to speak.
While I understand your point about the paramount importance of the ship in space combat I have to disagree based on this argument.
If the ship was purely your avatar and your space class you wouldn't be able to change it.
You physical ground avatar is Science, Tactical, or Engineer from cradle to the grave. Forever. You can't respec or anything.
You can change your ship anytime you're in sector space or on a social space map. What ship you use is FAR more variable than your character. It's a multiple level version definitely. Swapping your ship's set is the same as swapping your kit to a point. But so is changing what ship you're flying.
An engineer can fly any cruiser, science ship, or escort they like. But it's still the engineer.
So with respect it's much more gear than avatar.
If you release fleet versions of these ships, there better be ANOTHER upgrade for tier 5us, or they will be completely obsolete.
It's important to keep your promises. And it's important to not try to cram all your player base into the new ships. There's simply not enough of them, so it'd be boring. And some of us like our old ships.
Don't get me wrong. I'm okay with having to buy stuff. If you make tier 6 fleet versions of the existing ships and we have to pay full price for it, to me at least that would be acceptable. But there better be a tier 6 version of EVERY ship, then- in particular, lockbox and lobi ships.
The fleet ships will make your claim that jem-hadar ships would be upgraded to tier 6 capabilities, well, laughable. As it stands it is simply incorrect- the tier 6 ships include some capabilities that tier 5us will not. Whether or not it is COMPETITIVE is open for debate, whether or not it has the capabilities is not. I know a lot of people got those ships during the promotion- don't turn around and slap them in the face after what you promised but making tier 6 fleet ships that they won't be remotely competitive with.
You could at least throw us a bone. Some of us think the new ships are ugly. Why not let us use our existing ships as a skin? Then at least we'd be keeping SOME of what we wanted.
I think that would really see a lot of longtime players walk away. Seems like people are already experiencing fatigue from the double dip, upgrade to fleet and now to fleet 5U. Having to pay full outright for the same ship fully again and then it's fleet version would set some people over the edge.
Again, nein
If your Captain is your Class in space, if that's your character... does slotting a new phaser into his paper doll effect your damage in space? No it doesn't. All gear slotted into your captain does nothing. So where does slotting gear effect performance in space? Yeah that's right, into your ship's paper doll. Your ship effects your slottable gear, much like, say, being a Fighter as opposed to a mage will allow you to use Platemail.
What about skills? For the most part what decides what skills/spells you can choose? Captain Class? No, again it's ship. BOff slots decides what skills you can choose to slot. It makes up the vast bulk of what you can actually do in space, much like, say, choosing to be a Mage might allow you to choose a Fireball or Lightning Bolt to add to your repertoire.
What about Stats? Like hitpoints, speed, stuff like that? All ship. Your choice of Captain has no effect on it. You might suggest that Captain Skills can effect your space performance but, guess what? All SPACE skills are generic, making Captain Career irrelevant, again all that effects is ground performance. Doesn't that kind of remind you of, say, a Fighter getting more hitpoints than a Mage? Again, all Class stuff.
Being able to change ships is irrelevant. I can hit the character swap screen and go from a Federation Human Tactical Officer to a Klingon KDF Science Officer.... does that mean my Captain isn't my character, that my account is because that's the only thing that doesn't change? No, it just means I swapped characters. Same in space. How easy and the method of swapping is irrelevant. Hell, there are plenty of party-based RPGs where you can design surplus characters and swap among your roster at Inns and the like... so? Swapping characters is a facet of some RPGs, this just happens to be one of them when it comes to the Space game.
An Engineer can fly any ship, but that has zero effect on your gear, zero effect on what abilities you can choose to slot, zero effect on your stats (HP/hull, turn rate, shield modifier, Inertia, etc.). Basically every fundamental aspect of how your avatar, the representation in-game you control (which is unarguably your ship in space), interacts with the environment is based on ship not captain. All captain effects is a comparatively tiny number of abilities, literally nothing else.
In space, an Engineer in an Escort is closer to a Tactical Officer in an Escort than he is to an Engineer in a Cruiser.
So what does that mean? Your career becomes beyond secondary, and goes all the way to a tertiary concern in space. It doesn't have anything close to the fundamental impact that Class does, it does not define your character, nor their role merely doles out a few minor abilities making it closer to a "Specialization" system than a Class during the Space game.
I think people are reading way too much into the mention of T6 Fleet ships. They are not coming soon after DR..they are coming after DR...I suspect that maybe six months to a year away or more.
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Second, I still think T6-Fleet is a red herring. Yes, it's comparatively worse that T5-U will lose its only comparative advantage to T6 in the form of Hull/Shields/11th console once T6-Fleet is released. HOWEVER, T5-U still loses on BOFF options/flexibility (no opportunity for Intel powers, or whatever future sub-profession powers are introduced, as implied will happen) and number of BOFF powers (lacking that 3rd Lt. Cmdr. power is a HUGE disadvantage)
And again, while you could PROBABLY live without Intel powers (although lack of reliable Intel cleansing without IT, and the fact that few players willingly sacrifice access to Sci/Eng/Tac powers on ships with BOFF universal seatings affording such omissions, suggest this could be a bigger deal than appears), I don't see the logic in forcing players who are otherwise paying for T5-U to live without the extra BOFF power.
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I'd be absolutely shocked if T6 Fleet aren't here before the end of the year. It just seems to be how things are going.
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Has it occurred to anyone else that once we see the "normal" T6 ships, we'll really find out just how much difference there will be between T5-U and T6?
Right now, these Intelligence ships have lower hull and higher turn rate and some other stat differences that the "normal T6's may not have. Along with probably not having the Intelligence BOff seating. These T6 Intel ships are a new sub-species of a new breed of ships. We won't know exactly what the new ships might be capable of until we see the stats for the Guardian Cruiser, the MaHa Raptor and the Aelahl Warbird. These ships are what we should be comparing the T5-U's to, not directly to the Intel ships.
I'm still very leery about just how the T5 upgrades are going to be handled, but I am willing to wait until the information is released for everything before making up my mind. Not to say I haven't formed opinions with what has been released thus far, but I am willing to wait and see everything before I pass final judgement.
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