i think it does go to show just how much of their business is invested in the lockboxes,
i mean we alll know it is a big earner, i maybe wasn't quite aware of the sheer scale of
it though.
The lock box gambling thing is big...it's a trip how many of the games out there are running them. Not just Cryptic/PWE games, but all sorts of companies out there have jumped on the gambling bandwagon.
This will sound stupid so don't bother pointing out the obvious here lol. But, I just made a new character and bought a mirror T'varo off the exchange for like 300k EC. Seeing how I would rather, at level 50, put that character in the fleet tvaro, I can see now why people want MU ships upgraded. Something that has been pointed out is that the MU ships come out of a lockbox and were opened with a purchased key. So, from that logic, shouldn't MU ships at least be upgradeable considering that they COULD require the same investment to obtain?
I've never before been in the position of linking off the thread I'm infor support.
Specifically refer to Gorgonzolla.
Again, as I and many others have been pointing out all weekend none of those posts have any stats listed comparing T5U-11, T5U-10, and T6 at LEVEL 60. The only comparison is T5 standard against T6 at level 50. Very specific answer and pointing at a very specific point in the leveling process. Still nothing is mentioned about the increases per level. No solid numbers.
But because of the discounts they introduced...you only have to do it once on additional toons once you've got the discount. It's just /epicfacepalm.
Besides, that 200k FC that do not have a path...that could be 200k Dil that you got from selling Zen on the D:Z Exchange...and none of the Mirror ships could exist without Zen to buy the Keys.
I'm not quite willing to go with epic but it is a bit of a mess (seems like they didn't plan for it to begin with and are now trying to make the most of the situation given a small starting list of T5-U cost exceptions [ie. lock box ships]. You try to get the snakes to clean out the lizards and soon you have Risian Guerrilla's pulling peoples' heads off. :P)
Also, Zen isn't the currency of concern here. C-store and Fleet ships also cost zen. Its the lobi exception that's the biggy (and we have that because most lobi ships are direct counterparts to lock box ships which were probably the first group Cryptic had in mind to provide a free T5-U.)
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Again, as I and many others have been pointing out all weekend none of those posts have any stats listed comparing T5U-11, T5U-10, and T6 at LEVEL 60. The only comparison is T5 standard against T6 at level 50. Very specific answer and pointing at a very specific point in the leveling process.
There will be no stats for level 60. It will vary from player to player based on how you skill up in the mastery tree.
I wasn't talking about the DSDs...is what I was saying. The DSDs are currently 600 Lobi ships...I have no problem with them having a free upgrade. I have a problem with the Winter/Summer ships being free.
So long threats about running DR in a t5-oh wait; that means I'd be a tact in an escort, a squishy escort. Oh joy... I bet my fleet assault cruiser would do better.
I've read it, several times. The info you claim is not there, nor has it ever been as NO ONE can point to it
did you actually read the posts that we had written, at no time were we citing specific
values other than referring to those posts that were linked, we were both stating that
other than basics there was nothing else to go on and people were exagerating or just
plain pulling details out of the air. all we know is that whatever occurs it will be scaled
as you level. oh, and that the T5.5 will remain at least the same value ahead of T5, as
the orginal gain still stands as well as the new gain they get from the upgrade. and that
lockbox ship wil generally have better hull and shield than the stadard T6.
Again, as I and many others have been pointing out all weekend none of those posts have any stats listed comparing T5U-11, T5U-10, and T6 at LEVEL 60. The only comparison is T5 standard against T6 at level 50. Very specific answer and pointing at a very specific point in the leveling process. Still nothing is mentioned about the increases per level. No solid numbers.
One benefit of T5-U
-Bonus scaling HP
Same as T6. T5-U11 then has the +10% fleet health bonus. T5-U10 and T6 don't. Ergo, T5-U11 > T5-U10 and T6 at whatever level you wish to compare it (scaling isn't a differential factor here, they all do it.)
Of course there is the outside chance that cryptic will arbitrarily cut how much T5-U scales up compared to T6, but nothing they've said would so far indicate that.
Here by the way is your comparison of T5 and T6 at 50 (original T6 ship blog)
Each time your captain gains a level beyond 50 (up to level 60) the starships hit points will increase. These ships are intended to grow with the captain. This feature allows Tier 6 starships to be available at level 50 without making them have more hit points than Tier 5 ships do at that level.
Example: At level 50 your Tier 6 starship might have 35,000 hit points, while at level 60 it will have 40,000.
IE. they're comparable except for the specialist boff stations on the T6 and whatever unique abilities the T5 ship has (ex. rear dual cannon.) If you (or the devs) are going to discuss T6 as an upgrade you consider the situation at 60, not 50.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
I'm not quite willing to go with epic but it is a bit of a mess (seems like they didn't plan for it to begin with and are now trying to make the most of the situation given a small starting list of T5-U cost exceptions [ie. lock box ships]. You try to get the snakes to clean out the lizards and soon you have Risian Guerrilla's pulling peoples' heads off. :P)
Also, Zen isn't the currency of concern here. C-store and Fleet ships also cost zen. Its the lobi exception that's the biggy (and we have that because most lobi ships are direct counterparts to lock box ships which were probably the first group Cryptic had in mind to provide a free T5-U.)
Lock Box
Lobi
Fleet
10 console C-Store
Event
They're counterparts, they're all what should have been T6 when the Fleet system was introduced, imho. They're all +1 console, +hull, +shield mod ships compared to the Standard T5 9 console ships.
The thing is, while one might use Lobi to speed up getting the Event ship - it's not required. It's a convenience charge. The Lock Box, Lobi, Fleet, and 10 console C-Store ships all actually require that a Zen transaction took place.
The Lock Box require Master Keys which require Zen.
The Lobi require Master Keys which require Zen.
The Fleet require Fleet Ship Modules which require Zen.
The 10 console C-Store obviously require Zen...heh.
Master Keys and FSMs, even if bought on the Exchange...do not exist until somebody purchases them with Zen.
That's why I go with the /facepalm for the Winter/Summer ships being free. That's why I go with the /epicfacepalm when you consider the discounts on the Event ships available...cause it makes it that much worse.
And yeah, I feel all the hatred burning across the internet at me for suggesting folks have to pay a T5-U upgrade for their free ships.
Again, as I and many others have been pointing out all weekend none of those posts have any stats listed comparing T5U-11, T5U-10, and T6 at LEVEL 60. The only comparison is T5 standard against T6 at level 50. Very specific answer and pointing at a very specific point in the leveling process. Still nothing is mentioned about the increases per level. No solid numbers.
Q updated the OP of this thread to reflect some posts from the devs...did you read the second paragraph of gorngonzolla's first reply?
And yeah, I feel all the hatred burning across the internet at me for suggesting folks have to pay a T5-U upgrade for their free ships.
Well nothing is free in this game. You simply perform one action to get another reward. In the case of event ships you did a very specific grind to get a very specific item to get a very specific reward (or you spent lobi). For Fleet ships, you did a variety of things to earn EC, Dilithium, or a combination of both with whatever supplemental money (via zen) you wished to pay to avoid having to do more things to get the necessary modules.
In any case what you're spending on any particular item is time [or money]. Event ships are just a simpler form of that equation...which gets ****ed up a bit when you consider that account wide discount multiplying out a reward based on how many characters you have (if you choose to look at each event ship as a single product.) However in itself that's a very nice utility to those with multiple characters (less punishment for ship access based on alt number) that I think outweighs any complications here of getting an additional service because of the incidental lobi tie-in (its stupid in a quite litteral sense but its not directly harmful except to one's sense of self-respect.)
I would definitely agree that a more consistent policy would be nice, but respecting the gross difference between the [on average] effort for a Lock box and C-store/Fleet ship is more significant than letting a complication slip through on a technicality (epic facepalms can still result in a net good.)
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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Interesting that ships like the Marauder and D'kyr are getting T5u upgrades before fleet upgrades, and won't be getting T5u fleet versions either. Rather silly, IMO. So even after paying out zen to upgrade them, there still won't be a way to make them as good. So you are basically paying for the privilege of treading water.
Some other thoughts:
This whole system really seems designed to hurt fleets. One of the main benefits of joining fleets is access to Fleet ships. If these T6 are really equal (or better) to the T5u ships, then there isn't really much reason to join a fleet for the ships, unless you like canon ships, because you can get something as good or better at the C-store easily. Unless they introduce T6 fleet ships, which would just prove everyone who says these new ships are supposed to replace the old completely right.
The T5u, T5u Fleet, and T6 system is too complicated. There should never have been a differentiation between T5u and T6 anyways. They should have just patched in the ability to level ships up into the existing T5 ships There was no need to add these new tiers except to squeeze a few more drops out of folks by dropping a paywall in front of this new ship-leveling content.
I'll eat my combadge if these supposed alternative methods of getting starship traits are not going to come out of a lockbox.
Either the abilities of these new boffs are gimmicks don't affect balance, (in which case there won't be much reason to pick them up) or they will be useful and make old boffs/T5u ships less useful. IMO all T5u/T5u Fleet, and T6 ships should have these, otherwise the reason for their existence is questionable, they probably shouldn't have the full 'normal' boff capacity as well as the new boff abilities IMO, because it sounds like they are trying to replace them by putting them a tier above the old ones, unless there is a tradeoff for these new capabilities.
Now that I've had a few days to contemplate on it, these are my basic thoughts:
1. The cheaper for upgrades the better, a lot of people have a lot of ships across a lot of alts, while of course the hope is for us to move into T6 ships, there also has to be an acknowledgement that with a new ship class coming out, and only 10 ships, that means not ever class type is going to be represented at T6 at launch.
2. If T5U ships are even perceived as being inferior to T6, then many people will forgo upgrades.
3. If most players move into T6 with such a limited selection and forgo T5U, it will really reduce a lot of the visual ship variety we currently have in game, which I think would be a shame.
This will sound stupid so don't bother pointing out the obvious here lol. But, I just made a new character and bought a mirror T'varo off the exchange for like 300k EC. Seeing how I would rather, at level 50, put that character in the fleet tvaro, I can see now why people want MU ships upgraded. Something that has been pointed out is that the MU ships come out of a lockbox and were opened with a purchased key. So, from that logic, shouldn't MU ships at least be upgradeable considering that they COULD require the same investment to obtain?
Um... look at what you just said. 300k is pocket change, the big prize ships? They go for several times that. 300M is more reasonable for the big prize.
Oh and the reason Mirror T'varos are cheap is that they're inferior junk compared to their Z-store counterpart. I DID buy one... for the costume unlock only. I painted my good T'Varo to look like a mirror T'Varo.
However, while Mirror T'Varos are low end for a mirror ship, high end isn't much compared to something like a Narcine.
Interesting that ships like the Marauder and D'kyr are getting T5u upgrades before fleet upgrades, and won't be getting T5u fleet versions either. Rather silly, IMO. So even after paying out zen to upgrade them, there still won't be a way to make them as good. So you are basically paying for the privilege of treading water.
Some other thoughts:
This whole system really seems designed to hurt fleets. One of the main benefits of joining fleets is access to Fleet ships. If these T6 are really equal (or better) to the T5u ships, then there isn't really much reason to join a fleet for the ships, unless you like canon ships, because you can get something as good or better at the C-store easily. Unless they introduce T6 fleet ships, which would just prove everyone who says these new ships are supposed to replace the old completely right.
Well... Fleet T5-U are still better than regular T5-U. So, people DO still have a reason to get fleet stuff, and like someone else said earlier.... Fleet T6 is inevitable.
The dev. responses DO NOT in ANYWAY answer the big question that is coming over ALL our minds why the heck should we fork out significant real world money for something barely any more effective than what we have now, not only that why should we give money to a group that actively alienates the players and their generosity that they have displayed for FOUR years.
The way I see it is cryptic said "we do not wish to devalue the ships that were bought over the last four years" but oh by the way what your bought over the last four years we want more money to make them effective again if not its going to be slow and hard and we'll keep going that way till you give up and give us money!
Cryptic have been alienating us long term players constantly and deliberately since the start of free to play for instance all vet rewards are now lifetime sub perks, since when does a lifetime membership mean you've slugged more than 1000 days into the game?
It doesn't it only means you've shoved money down cryptics neck, and with that behaviour and then wilfully alienating those that have paid their bills for the last four years
My question to Geko is this:
If you had a child and they were misbehaving would you reward them for their bad behaviour with ice cream?
No so why should we the player base reward cryptic with Very Hard earned money when it continually and Wilfully alienats their players?
CVN-65 U.S.S. Enterprise - A ship so badass it survived John McCain.
I'm confused now, is there a difference between the ships we got for levelling up from before the game went F2P to the ships we bought in the c-store or not?
As in, we can only upgrade c-store ships that were actually bought on the c-store, and the old ones bit the dust?
Will gold members get a free ship upon level up as they used to at lvl 50 and/or lvl 60?
I can´t imagim¡ne a worse way to do the upgrade to T5U that paying zen... I can only think this a complete money grab. I,m completely disapointed in the fact that almost all my ships are ships that i bought with zen and now i have to pay even more zen to "update" them. If thats the way you will do things, i will just abandon the game, wich i payed when this was not free to play, and all that golden months after that. Shame on you, there are better ways to monetise your game...
Look it could be worse they could of not given us a upgrade path n made us fork out 3K+ zen for the new ships.
If they was all about money grabing thats what they would of done. That would of lostt them players.
As far as i see it it could of been alot worse then it is right now if the upgrade only costs 500 zen then it is the same as upgrading some c-store ships. Players did not complain this much when fleet ship upgrades came out. Most of them u could only get after a massive grind.
They need to make money after mths of hard work on ex2 what other way is the game going to pay for it self. This game is adout ships its why most people play ships pay for this game its very simple.
I just read the post by cryptic about the starship 5-upgrades/ tier 6 ships. now from what I've read is that at "level 50" you can upgrade your tier 5 ships to tier 5 upgraded. what is the reasoning to let them be gotten at level 50? you unlocked the tier 5 ships at level 50. While yes you have been playing the ships for a long time. you still haven't leveled your tier 5 ships up from 50 to 60. if you start a new character, or you get someone new start playing the game, it will go immediately from t5 to t5 upgraded same level, without even flying the tier 5 ship?
"Let me retoss these numbers out. Especially since monetary values are, by definition, a method to express the amount of "work", or "grind / investment", into something.
"By that definition, I had to "grind/invest" 8 to 10 times more on a Lobi Recluse Carrier than you did for a T5 or T5.5 C-store ship.
And yet, you believe that your "bare minimum" grind/investment deserves to be rewarded identically to my "above and beyond" grind/investment?
And while the values aren't out, we both can be relatively certain that T6 levels of power will cost more than T5 levels - whether it's the direct T5 to T6 jump, or via the T5U process."
Actually this is another David vs Goliath argument here and yes I do think IT IS valid. Maybe I don't have the cash like YOU DO. But I did pay into the game as well. See it's this way,
YOU SPENT, $1.250 on Lock Box Keys, and Lobi Store. Wow, you really invested into this game and nothing else better to spend toward. See this creats the "binge spending" vs "budget spending". Again I don't waste time with Lobi and Lock Boxes and that makes me cheap? Actually I like to know the debt you are running yourself into with that much spent on the game itself.
Onward now shall we?
First off, ditch the deflection. I spent $200 on the Lobi Store Recluse. Fact checking helps ditch the "troll" effect. Also, I said 10 times, not 500, should have reinforced the price level.
Second off, thanks for ignoring the whole bit about "bare minimum" vs. "Massive" investment. I am trying my best to garner some sympathy for you - but deflection and ignorance of the thrust of a post does not help garner sympathy. Are you going to reply to the imbalances in investments?
"Way I figure it, my Recluse is the "lifer equivalent" in ships - you know, massive up front investment for assurances I'll receive things throughout the life of the game, while your ship is the "gold subscriber" version - you paid then for the advantage then - but that doesn't cover you after the minimal investment has been made..."
Well that's your path you set, folks like myself rather put the time to just get a ship, get a fleet from the discount of the C Store version and build from that. Again this is about spend more and satisfying egos. Verses someone that wants to buy, watch what they spend, and enjoy the game for fun. BRILLIANT! Hey you love STO? You love Perfectworld? Work for Perfectworld, or go to the Stock Broker to see what their shares are worth and invest that nest egg of yours to help them rise in Wall Street.
And if you hate them so much, why haven't you already practiced what you preach and exited stage right or whatever you've been insisting that I do? <trolling off>
"And remember, after all the multi-day grindy events, someone's got it stuck in their craw that they can get/keep their numbers up, however artificially, over stretches of time with these dragged out events - a direct counter-attempt to "fix" the problem of lagging daily logins... Said PR person might elect to make more grindy-events to "fix" the login problem - maybe tie said "free PR reward upgrade" to one of those events?
"
Well if you don't like the lag, although you like the game, you don't like the login issue. The door is that way
> for another thread because this one is about "Tier V Starship Upgrades." Not the bugs in STO. Next!
1. This comment is after the line that says, essentially, this is not part of "our" discussion. Prefaced by "and for the other guy that called me out".
2. Perhaps PWE will rethink their "no free upgrade" path, however, since there's supposedly some big issue in corporate-land about lagging PC logins, a multi day grindy event would, semi-obviously, drive logins - "want your free upgrade? Grind for it, but by daily logins, not acquiring piles of Dil... (be careful what you wish for type thought)
Final note: This "response" has not addressed the primary question. To repeat, what makes your "bare minimum $20 or $25 to get a T5 or T5.5 starship" a level of investment that qualifies you for an upgrade to a more expensive power level.
I, semi in a rage (yes, now I mad bro), defended, logically, why I believe at least my Lobi ship deserves an upgrade. Note that I ain't defending my $50 pack Vestas, I'm only defending my Recluse (and by extension my Orb Weaver).
You have not "defended" anything. You have, very strongly, advised me that, as I mentioned (in a part of my post that you so carefully cherry picked out) you suffer from "special snowflake syndrome" and believe that said syndrome is what qualifies you for said upgrade and "special treatment". Here's your chance - random spiel = Troll, thought out response that includes and actually answers my final note, thought out discussion that can lead to constructive feedback... (IMO, of course. If not, please advise how your rant is "constructive" with possibly hard numbers or a logical chain of facts that addresses the monetary imbalances between tiers and what it takes to get ships)
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Most all businesses work very, very hard to find customers and keep them as repeat business. It's silly to think Cryptic or PWE does not care about veteran customers. There are a great many people here who have been with the game since BETA.
i think you misunderstand what i posted, at no point did i say that cryptic didnt care, in
fact the direction of my post was that vets have a far higher expectation of the game
than newer or casual players, and while cryptic obviously want to cater to both, there
is a point when the cost to meet those expectations moves outside of what is viable
from a business perspective. this entire thread is pretty much all vets, some of us
understand the need for this system to be implemented, as the expansion needs to
return a profit and well thats how all mmo's work. however there are a vocal majority
in this thread who want free upgrades for all, or upgrades to ful T6, and are busy calling
doom because crystal ball, 8 ball, reasons has told them that T6 makes life obsolete.
I wonder, even if T5-FU ships are equal in power to T6 (just different), what happens if T6 ships get fleet versions, let alone upgrades ? Is it even possible that some T6 ships are compatible with other ship skins ? Some of them look a little like older ships it seems.
43 days in counting to the final out come of all of this.
When are the 5 forward and 5 aft weapons ships coming out? All I see is either 5 forward with 3 aft weapons or 4 forward with 3 aft weapons and some T5 with 4 forward and 4 aft weapons.
Tac BOF should be able to use Tac BOF - Commander 1, 2, 3, 4 + Tac BOF Lt. Commander 1, 2, 3 slots. Instead of 1,2 + 1 BOF options. Some ships do have 1,2,3 + 1,2 there is hope there.
So many console devices I have but yet can't use them all or use the ones that really do perform what they're suppose to add to the ship, hull/shields, weapons etc.
Tac Consoles: 5
Eng Console: 5
Sci Consoles 5
This these always seem to be an issue. Warp 10, Slipstream Warp 20. Some add-on components claims to push it beyond the norm specs.
Warp
Slipstream
Turn-Rate
Speed
I can understand there are limits but Tier 6 ship should have some extra features so everyone would want to get one. Otherwise bringing out old ship designs with limited BOF and consoles slots.
When you introduce a new ship should also in a graphical form show exactly what your buying show the ship weapons, engines, shields, devices and consoles that are available. Sure you use text but visual works best like you show the ship show what makes that ship stand out.
Also one more thing Shield Slot, why can't we have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 slots for Shields? The former online game I was on they would push Weapons Slots beyond 5 and go up as high as 6 to 8 slots. Show full diagram views of these ships along with a video showing the ship in action.
I have a problem with the Winter/Summer ships being free.
so, first people whine that ship upgrades aren't free and they have to pay for them, then people whine because they don't have to pay for upgrading their ships.
it's no wonder cryptic doesn't actually listen to anyone, when the arguments are as irrational as the one i quoted above.
Now clowns, that's another story. They scare the crap out of me.
We fight them too. Entire armies spilling out of Volkswagens.
We do our best to fight them off, but they keep sending them in.
Um... look at what you just said. 300k is pocket change, the big prize ships? They go for several times that. 300M is more reasonable for the big prize.
Oh and the reason Mirror T'varos are cheap is that they're inferior junk compared to their Z-store counterpart. I DID buy one... for the costume unlock only. I painted my good T'Varo to look like a mirror T'Varo.
However, while Mirror T'Varos are low end for a mirror ship, high end isn't much compared to something like a Narcine.
Well... Fleet T5-U are still better than regular T5-U. So, people DO still have a reason to get fleet stuff, and like someone else said earlier.... Fleet T6 is inevitable.
Thank you for not reading the first sentence just so you can argue. I hope you feel good about that
Rage! Missed a weekend since it was actually a holiday, and look at this, almost 300 pages of rage. Will Cryptic learn a thing? So did anyone ask them why there are no Boff layout upgrades in the T5u ships? Its totally their call to shaft us......
It's just "Dr Doom" Roubini
Refugee from those other games!
Comments
The lock box gambling thing is big...it's a trip how many of the games out there are running them. Not just Cryptic/PWE games, but all sorts of companies out there have jumped on the gambling bandwagon.
Again, as I and many others have been pointing out all weekend none of those posts have any stats listed comparing T5U-11, T5U-10, and T6 at LEVEL 60. The only comparison is T5 standard against T6 at level 50. Very specific answer and pointing at a very specific point in the leveling process. Still nothing is mentioned about the increases per level. No solid numbers.
I'm not quite willing to go with epic but it is a bit of a mess (seems like they didn't plan for it to begin with and are now trying to make the most of the situation given a small starting list of T5-U cost exceptions [ie. lock box ships]. You try to get the snakes to clean out the lizards and soon you have Risian Guerrilla's pulling peoples' heads off. :P)
Also, Zen isn't the currency of concern here. C-store and Fleet ships also cost zen. Its the lobi exception that's the biggy (and we have that because most lobi ships are direct counterparts to lock box ships which were probably the first group Cryptic had in mind to provide a free T5-U.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
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There will be no stats for level 60. It will vary from player to player based on how you skill up in the mastery tree.
So long threats about running DR in a t5-oh wait; that means I'd be a tact in an escort, a squishy escort. Oh joy... I bet my fleet assault cruiser would do better.
did you actually read the posts that we had written, at no time were we citing specific
values other than referring to those posts that were linked, we were both stating that
other than basics there was nothing else to go on and people were exagerating or just
plain pulling details out of the air. all we know is that whatever occurs it will be scaled
as you level. oh, and that the T5.5 will remain at least the same value ahead of T5, as
the orginal gain still stands as well as the new gain they get from the upgrade. and that
lockbox ship wil generally have better hull and shield than the stadard T6.
One benefit of T5-U
Same as T6. T5-U11 then has the +10% fleet health bonus. T5-U10 and T6 don't. Ergo, T5-U11 > T5-U10 and T6 at whatever level you wish to compare it (scaling isn't a differential factor here, they all do it.)
Of course there is the outside chance that cryptic will arbitrarily cut how much T5-U scales up compared to T6, but nothing they've said would so far indicate that.
Here by the way is your comparison of T5 and T6 at 50 (original T6 ship blog)
IE. they're comparable except for the specialist boff stations on the T6 and whatever unique abilities the T5 ship has (ex. rear dual cannon.) If you (or the devs) are going to discuss T6 as an upgrade you consider the situation at 60, not 50.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Lock Box
Lobi
Fleet
10 console C-Store
Event
They're counterparts, they're all what should have been T6 when the Fleet system was introduced, imho. They're all +1 console, +hull, +shield mod ships compared to the Standard T5 9 console ships.
The thing is, while one might use Lobi to speed up getting the Event ship - it's not required. It's a convenience charge. The Lock Box, Lobi, Fleet, and 10 console C-Store ships all actually require that a Zen transaction took place.
The Lock Box require Master Keys which require Zen.
The Lobi require Master Keys which require Zen.
The Fleet require Fleet Ship Modules which require Zen.
The 10 console C-Store obviously require Zen...heh.
Master Keys and FSMs, even if bought on the Exchange...do not exist until somebody purchases them with Zen.
That's why I go with the /facepalm for the Winter/Summer ships being free. That's why I go with the /epicfacepalm when you consider the discounts on the Event ships available...cause it makes it that much worse.
And yeah, I feel all the hatred burning across the internet at me for suggesting folks have to pay a T5-U upgrade for their free ships.
Q updated the OP of this thread to reflect some posts from the devs...did you read the second paragraph of gorngonzolla's first reply?
Well nothing is free in this game. You simply perform one action to get another reward. In the case of event ships you did a very specific grind to get a very specific item to get a very specific reward (or you spent lobi). For Fleet ships, you did a variety of things to earn EC, Dilithium, or a combination of both with whatever supplemental money (via zen) you wished to pay to avoid having to do more things to get the necessary modules.
In any case what you're spending on any particular item is time [or money]. Event ships are just a simpler form of that equation...which gets ****ed up a bit when you consider that account wide discount multiplying out a reward based on how many characters you have (if you choose to look at each event ship as a single product.) However in itself that's a very nice utility to those with multiple characters (less punishment for ship access based on alt number) that I think outweighs any complications here of getting an additional service because of the incidental lobi tie-in (its stupid in a quite litteral sense but its not directly harmful except to one's sense of self-respect.)
I would definitely agree that a more consistent policy would be nice, but respecting the gross difference between the [on average] effort for a Lock box and C-store/Fleet ship is more significant than letting a complication slip through on a technicality (epic facepalms can still result in a net good.)
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Some other thoughts:
This whole system really seems designed to hurt fleets. One of the main benefits of joining fleets is access to Fleet ships. If these T6 are really equal (or better) to the T5u ships, then there isn't really much reason to join a fleet for the ships, unless you like canon ships, because you can get something as good or better at the C-store easily. Unless they introduce T6 fleet ships, which would just prove everyone who says these new ships are supposed to replace the old completely right.
The T5u, T5u Fleet, and T6 system is too complicated. There should never have been a differentiation between T5u and T6 anyways. They should have just patched in the ability to level ships up into the existing T5 ships There was no need to add these new tiers except to squeeze a few more drops out of folks by dropping a paywall in front of this new ship-leveling content.
I'll eat my combadge if these supposed alternative methods of getting starship traits are not going to come out of a lockbox.
Either the abilities of these new boffs are gimmicks don't affect balance, (in which case there won't be much reason to pick them up) or they will be useful and make old boffs/T5u ships less useful. IMO all T5u/T5u Fleet, and T6 ships should have these, otherwise the reason for their existence is questionable, they probably shouldn't have the full 'normal' boff capacity as well as the new boff abilities IMO, because it sounds like they are trying to replace them by putting them a tier above the old ones, unless there is a tradeoff for these new capabilities.
1. The cheaper for upgrades the better, a lot of people have a lot of ships across a lot of alts, while of course the hope is for us to move into T6 ships, there also has to be an acknowledgement that with a new ship class coming out, and only 10 ships, that means not ever class type is going to be represented at T6 at launch.
2. If T5U ships are even perceived as being inferior to T6, then many people will forgo upgrades.
3. If most players move into T6 with such a limited selection and forgo T5U, it will really reduce a lot of the visual ship variety we currently have in game, which I think would be a shame.
Oh and the reason Mirror T'varos are cheap is that they're inferior junk compared to their Z-store counterpart. I DID buy one... for the costume unlock only. I painted my good T'Varo to look like a mirror T'Varo.
However, while Mirror T'Varos are low end for a mirror ship, high end isn't much compared to something like a Narcine. Well... Fleet T5-U are still better than regular T5-U. So, people DO still have a reason to get fleet stuff, and like someone else said earlier.... Fleet T6 is inevitable.
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The way I see it is cryptic said "we do not wish to devalue the ships that were bought over the last four years" but oh by the way what your bought over the last four years we want more money to make them effective again if not its going to be slow and hard and we'll keep going that way till you give up and give us money!
Cryptic have been alienating us long term players constantly and deliberately since the start of free to play for instance all vet rewards are now lifetime sub perks, since when does a lifetime membership mean you've slugged more than 1000 days into the game?
It doesn't it only means you've shoved money down cryptics neck, and with that behaviour and then wilfully alienating those that have paid their bills for the last four years
My question to Geko is this:
If you had a child and they were misbehaving would you reward them for their bad behaviour with ice cream?
No so why should we the player base reward cryptic with Very Hard earned money when it continually and Wilfully alienats their players?
As in, we can only upgrade c-store ships that were actually bought on the c-store, and the old ones bit the dust?
Will gold members get a free ship upon level up as they used to at lvl 50 and/or lvl 60?
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
If they was all about money grabing thats what they would of done. That would of lostt them players.
As far as i see it it could of been alot worse then it is right now if the upgrade only costs 500 zen then it is the same as upgrading some c-store ships. Players did not complain this much when fleet ship upgrades came out. Most of them u could only get after a massive grind.
They need to make money after mths of hard work on ex2 what other way is the game going to pay for it self. This game is adout ships its why most people play ships pay for this game its very simple.
Never denied you spent money. See below for what I'm really wondering...
First off, ditch the deflection. I spent $200 on the Lobi Store Recluse. Fact checking helps ditch the "troll" effect. Also, I said 10 times, not 500, should have reinforced the price level.
Second off, thanks for ignoring the whole bit about "bare minimum" vs. "Massive" investment. I am trying my best to garner some sympathy for you - but deflection and ignorance of the thrust of a post does not help garner sympathy. Are you going to reply to the imbalances in investments?
And if you hate them so much, why haven't you already practiced what you preach and exited stage right or whatever you've been insisting that I do? <trolling off>
1. This comment is after the line that says, essentially, this is not part of "our" discussion. Prefaced by "and for the other guy that called me out".
2. Perhaps PWE will rethink their "no free upgrade" path, however, since there's supposedly some big issue in corporate-land about lagging PC logins, a multi day grindy event would, semi-obviously, drive logins - "want your free upgrade? Grind for it, but by daily logins, not acquiring piles of Dil... (be careful what you wish for type thought)
Final note: This "response" has not addressed the primary question. To repeat, what makes your "bare minimum $20 or $25 to get a T5 or T5.5 starship" a level of investment that qualifies you for an upgrade to a more expensive power level.
I, semi in a rage (yes, now I mad bro), defended, logically, why I believe at least my Lobi ship deserves an upgrade. Note that I ain't defending my $50 pack Vestas, I'm only defending my Recluse (and by extension my Orb Weaver).
You have not "defended" anything. You have, very strongly, advised me that, as I mentioned (in a part of my post that you so carefully cherry picked out) you suffer from "special snowflake syndrome" and believe that said syndrome is what qualifies you for said upgrade and "special treatment". Here's your chance - random spiel = Troll, thought out response that includes and actually answers my final note, thought out discussion that can lead to constructive feedback... (IMO, of course. If not, please advise how your rant is "constructive" with possibly hard numbers or a logical chain of facts that addresses the monetary imbalances between tiers and what it takes to get ships)
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
i think you misunderstand what i posted, at no point did i say that cryptic didnt care, in
fact the direction of my post was that vets have a far higher expectation of the game
than newer or casual players, and while cryptic obviously want to cater to both, there
is a point when the cost to meet those expectations moves outside of what is viable
from a business perspective. this entire thread is pretty much all vets, some of us
understand the need for this system to be implemented, as the expansion needs to
return a profit and well thats how all mmo's work. however there are a vocal majority
in this thread who want free upgrades for all, or upgrades to ful T6, and are busy calling
doom because crystal ball, 8 ball, reasons has told them that T6 makes life obsolete.
....like i said high expectations!!
When are the 5 forward and 5 aft weapons ships coming out? All I see is either 5 forward with 3 aft weapons or 4 forward with 3 aft weapons and some T5 with 4 forward and 4 aft weapons.
Tac BOF should be able to use Tac BOF - Commander 1, 2, 3, 4 + Tac BOF Lt. Commander 1, 2, 3 slots. Instead of 1,2 + 1 BOF options. Some ships do have 1,2,3 + 1,2 there is hope there.
So many console devices I have but yet can't use them all or use the ones that really do perform what they're suppose to add to the ship, hull/shields, weapons etc.
Tac Consoles: 5
Eng Console: 5
Sci Consoles 5
This these always seem to be an issue. Warp 10, Slipstream Warp 20. Some add-on components claims to push it beyond the norm specs.
Warp
Slipstream
Turn-Rate
Speed
I can understand there are limits but Tier 6 ship should have some extra features so everyone would want to get one. Otherwise bringing out old ship designs with limited BOF and consoles slots.
When you introduce a new ship should also in a graphical form show exactly what your buying show the ship weapons, engines, shields, devices and consoles that are available. Sure you use text but visual works best like you show the ship show what makes that ship stand out.
Also one more thing Shield Slot, why can't we have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 slots for Shields? The former online game I was on they would push Weapons Slots beyond 5 and go up as high as 6 to 8 slots. Show full diagram views of these ships along with a video showing the ship in action.
Some suggestions thanks for listening..
Time will only tell!
*wallet closed*
We have
T5 ships
T5 fleet ships +10% stats
T5U ships "which may be better than T6 ships"
T6 ships $$ Money grab
T6 fleet ships? Ya, they are coming, with the 10% stats bonus, they'll obsolete everything and cost you even more.
When you think cryptic is TRIBBLE, you aren't seeing the whole picture until you see how they plan to TRIBBLE you twice.
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Nothing to do anymore.
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it's no wonder cryptic doesn't actually listen to anyone, when the arguments are as irrational as the one i quoted above.
We fight them too. Entire armies spilling out of Volkswagens.
We do our best to fight them off, but they keep sending them in.
Thank you for not reading the first sentence just so you can argue. I hope you feel good about that
It's just "Dr Doom" Roubini
Refugee from those other games!