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Tier 5 Starship Upgrades

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  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,980 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    First flaw with that argument is that the base purchase cost was applied to the upgrade for discounting purposes, while here there is no such discount for most ships (only lockbox/lobi get sub-T6 upgrade for free, the majority of T5 ships have to pay for sub-T6 upgrade). Second is that there is no upgrade path from your existing ship to T6 period, not even for JHAS or anything will ever get to Fleet T6. So the comparison to season 6 upgrades is not really applicable at all.

    1. The discount of fleet ships was only applied to c-store ships then. Many ships were excluded, even from having any kind of fleet variant (see. KDF Siege Destroyer). Now, all C-store, Fleet, and Specialty ships are included in T5-U. That's every ship that had a fleet version PLUS all of those fleet versions, all those c-store ships left out last time, AND every lock box, lobi, veteran, and seasonal event ship.

    2. The full price of a fleet ship was 4 modules (or $20 be that money or translated money from time spent.) The discount was 1 (ie. $5). Cryptic has stated that the price of T5-U will be somewhere between $5 and $10 (probably on the lower) which is analgous to the discounted price of a fleet ship (plus perhaps a little more for the ship mastery levels). The discount applied this time is of course 0 and I've already stated how that's reasonable (I suggest you go back and review that post.)

    3. T6 only accounts for specialist boff powers and the starship trait. Its going to be a cold day in hell if it turns out that Cryptic has balanaced the new content in such a way that those will somehow be more important than the customary stat increase of T5-U/T-6 which is ENTIRELY ANALGOUS to what we've seen before. For one, you don't even unlock ship traits until Mastery level 5 (so even for T6 ships you can't reasonably expect them to be availalbe for all/most players when they jump into DR).
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  • qziqzaqziqza Member Posts: 1,044 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    First flaw with that argument is that the base purchase cost was applied to the upgrade for discounting purposes, while here there is no such discount for most ships (only lockbox/lobi get sub-T6 upgrade for free, the majority of T5 ships have to pay for sub-T6 upgrade). Second is that there is no upgrade path from your existing ship to T6 period, not even for JHAS or anything will ever get to Fleet T6. So the comparison to season 6 upgrades is not really applicable at all--at least there you could pay a small fee to get upgrade to the best result (mostly) but here you have to pay full sticker plus-plus to get less than best.

    this is the problem, everything everyone is saying about the relative differences between
    T5U and T6 is purely speculative, until actual stats are released we have no idea exactly
    what the values are going to be, how those values will compare to each other and just
    exactly what that means relative to gameplay.
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  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,980 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    qziqza wrote: »
    this is the problem, everything everyone is saying about the relative differences between
    T5U and T6 is purely speculative, until actual stats are released we have no idea exactly
    what the values are going to be, how those values will compare to each other and just
    exactly that means relative to gameplay.

    Here's one confirmed difference: T6 is an upgrade from T5, meaning that you get the customary boost to hull, shields, and consoles that goes with any tier. So, (sticking with consoles since it best illustrates the point) a standard T6 ship is going to bring you up to 10. T5-U fleet ships on the other hand will have 11 and an additional boost to hull and shield points (because its applying a second tier upgrade from T5, fleet first then this new level.)

    Though we don't know how being down one extra ability will play out in DR we can sure as hell bet it won't invalidate the use of older vessels (and when Fleet T6 rolls around the question is strictly going to be down to the starship mastery trait and specialist boff powers. Stat wise T5-U and T6 are going to be on conceptually equal footing.)
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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  • qziqzaqziqza Member Posts: 1,044 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    ghobepong wrote: »
    Argument flawed on the basis that YOU assume that every person should save Dylithium, create 8 characters just for the fun of counting their Dylithium, and then trade it in at the exchange for zen. OH WAIT THERE'S MORE! Let's also look at the fact that perhaps being cheap and not someone with the money to even continue TRIBBLE shooting for Lobi and Lock Box Starships, is the only TRUE way to be a STO gamer. BRILLIANT! Flawed, Illogical, and seperating the rich from the poor argument. Wow who's really cheap here again. Everyone must or should follow your model? I THINK NOT!

    so basically what you are saying is that you dont want to spend money or time in the
    game to generate currency. but you do want to have your ships upgraded for for free
    so you can play the new expansion they have spent months putting together and not
    feel left behing in your T5/5.5 ship(s) or am i missing something?
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  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,980 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    ghobepong wrote: »
    Argument flawed on the basis that YOU assume that every person should save Dylithium, create 8 characters just for the fun of counting their Dylithium, and then trade it in at the exchange for zen. OH WAIT THERE'S MORE! Let's also look at the fact that perhaps being cheap and not someone with the money to even continue TRIBBLE shooting for Lobi and Lock Box Starships, is the only TRUE way to be a STO gamer. BRILLIANT! Flawed, Illogical, and seperating the rich from the poor argument. Wow who's really cheap here again. Everyone must or should follow your model? I THINK NOT!

    You first tried to justify yourself by saying you had bills to pay and a family to feed (so spending anything on a new tier upgrade was out of the question) but saving and budgeting are somehow NOT something to expect from this online currency?

    Here's a bit of advice for arguing on the internet. See those feet of yours? Don't shoot them.
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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  • ghobepongghobepong Member Posts: 136 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    1. The discount of fleet ships was only applied to c-store ships then. Many ships were excluded, even from having any kind of fleet variant (see. KDF Siege Destroyer). Now, all C-store, Fleet, and Specialty ships are included in T5-U. That's every ship that had a fleet version PLUS all of those fleet versions, all those c-store ships left out last time, AND every lock box, lobi, veteran, and seasonal event ship.

    2. The full price of a fleet ship was 4 modules (or $20 be that money or translated money from time spent.) The discount was 1 (ie. $5). Cryptic has stated that the price of T5-U will be somewhere between $5 and $10 (probably on the lower) which is analgous to the discounted price of a fleet ship (plus perhaps a little more for the ship mastery levels). The discount applied this time is of course 0 and I've already stated how that's reasonable (I suggest you go back and review that post.)

    3. T6 only accounts for specialist boff powers and the starship trait. Its going to be a cold day in hell if it turns out that Cryptic has balanaced the new content in such a way that those will somehow be more important than the customary stat increase of T5-U/T-6 which is ENTIRELY ANALGOUS to what we've seen before. For one, you don't even unlock ship traits until Mastery level 5 (so even for T6 ships you can't reasonably expect them to be availalbe for all/most players when they jump into DR).




    1: That was then, and THIS is NOW! Watch Out, HERE WE GO! The showed as followed:


    A: Most Lobi and Lock Box Ships would be grandfathered into DR to T5-U. Yet a great if almost all of C-Store and Fleet Ships WOULD NOT be GRANDFATHERED and be charged the covienant $5 to $10 fee for the T5-U upgrade. Yeah, I smell desperation for Perfectworld on that one. Their fault not the gamers, and THUS shouldn't be penalized on THE GAMERS!

    B: Lets also look at that even promotional ships such as the Breen ships from the Winterwonderland were included in that grandfathered free upgrade? Grandfathered? For Promotional Ships? FAIL! Now that is outrageous on the part that was the "Sweat Equity" you argued about. Flawed!


    Now onto the next section shall we?


    2: The price on Fleet Modules was what again? $5 no higher no less? Thank you Duncanidaho I thought earlier you argued that the person working for a fleet ship was more grind or exchange next to nothing in comparison of monetization contributed toward getting a fleet ship. But wait what did you just quote?


    "The full price of a fleet ship was 4 modules (or $20 be that money or translated money from time spent.) The discount was 1 (ie. $5). Cryptic has stated that the price of T5-U will be somewhere between $5 and $10 (probably on the lower) which is analgous to the discounted price of a fleet ship (plus perhaps a little more for the ship mastery levels). The discount applied this time is of course 0 and I've already stated how that's reasonable (I suggest you go back and review that post.)"


    More fuel to the argument and the fire that even Silver Members contribute to this game as much as the Gold and Lifetime Members that Perfectworld makes money, so stacking full value to upgrade to the T5-U of Starships be C Store, or even Fleet contradicts everything you stated. Flawed!

    Now onto the final finale, the climax of this evenings performance.



    3: Now about that last quote?


    "3. T6 only accounts for specialist boff powers and the starship trait. Its going to be a cold day in hell if it turns out that Cryptic has balanaced the new content in such a way that those will somehow be more important than the customary stat increase of T5-U/T-6 which is ENTIRELY ANALGOUS to what we've seen before. For one, you don't even unlock ship traits until Mastery level 5 (so even for T6 ships you can't reasonably expect them to be availalbe for all/most players when they jump into DR).[/QUOTE]"


    First off, Tier 6 Starship threads next door down. But enough jest aside on that one. Yes, I can see them charging zen for Tier 6 Starships. THAT is how Perfectworld CAN make the money. I have no issues with Tier 6 for sale. But STO offered options and alternatives, and again HERE and NOW that only alternative is like a person said, a "flat full value sticker" to upgrade even a Fleet Ship?

    Well as Harry Truman once said, "The Buck Stops Here." That is what you are seeing on the forum, that is what yes even US underdogs, or even lower ranked forum people you see are talking about. AGAIN our opinion is just as valid as the next persons as well. And why we speaking on the forums about it?




    "Please note that everything detailed here is subject to change due to feedback.
    We also encourage you to hop onto our test server Tribble to experience this system first hand when it becomes available."



    Phil “Gorngonzolla” Zeleski
    Systems Lead
    Star Trek Online



    By Phil "Gorngonzolla" Zeleski I don't think he could have said it any better. "Please note that everything detailed here is subject to change due to feedback."


    Well, you can't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs first. And well we're the feedback!
  • qziqzaqziqza Member Posts: 1,044 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Here's one confirmed difference: T6 is an upgrade from T5, meaning that you get the customary boost to hull, shields, and consoles that goes with any tier. So, (sticking with consoles since it best illustrates the point) a standard T6 ship is going to bring you up to 10. T5-U fleet ships on the other hand will have 11 and an additional boost to hull and shield points (because its applying a second tier upgrade from T5, fleet first then this new level.)

    Though we don't know how being down one extra ability will play out in DR we can sure as hell bet it won't invalidate the use of older vessels (and when Fleet T6 rolls around the question is strictly going to be down to the starship mastery trait and specialist boff powers. Stat wise T5-U and T6 are going to be on conceptually equal footing.)

    yeah i get all that, some times i look at the little we do know and i think the T5U-11 looks
    it could be nicer than the T6, then i go back to chasing my tail as that depends on the boff
    and ability set up on the T6.. hence the need for more datas :)
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  • lystentlystent Member Posts: 1,019
    edited September 2014
    ghobepong wrote: »
    By Phil "Gorngonzolla" Zeleski I don't think he could have said it any better. "Please note that everything detailed here is subject to change due to feedback."
    I would like to see that.
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,980 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    ghobepong wrote: »
    A: Most Lobi and Lock Box Ships would be grandfathered into DR to T5-U. Yet a great if almost all of C-Store and Fleet Ships WOULD NOT be GRANDFATHERED and be charged the covienant $5 to $10 fee for the T5-U upgrade.

    You're quite simply not paying attention. Did you look at the cost difference? No. Did you even try to consider what that means with that "sweat equity" system you have going there? No. Are you even trying to apply that to the $5 to $10 fee to the idea of "sweat" as an in-game currency? No, you're just being beligerent to avoid having to admit anything of reason presented for you.

    If you want a discussion I'm here. If you want to rant I'm sure there's the streetcorner outside.
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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  • ghobepongghobepong Member Posts: 136 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    You first tried to justify yourself by saying you had bills to pay and a family to feed (so spending anything on a new tier upgrade was out of the question) but saving and budgeting are somehow NOT something to expect from this online currency?

    Here's a bit of advice for arguing on the internet. See those feet of yours? Don't shoot them.


    Ah, again the Justify argument and yet insulting.......... Moderator please.
  • ghobepongghobepong Member Posts: 136 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    You're quite simply not paying attention. Did you look at the cost difference? No. Did you even try to consider what that means with that "sweat equity" system you have going there? No. Are you even trying to apply that to the $5 to $10 fee to the idea of "sweat" as an in-game currency? No, you're just being beligerent to avoid having to admit anything of reason presented for you.

    If you want a discussion I'm here. If you want to rant I'm sure there's the streetcorner outside.


    Actually I did pay attention, note, quoted, recapped, and even debunked. Honestly with the insults and sterotyping? You mad bro?
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,980 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    qziqza wrote: »
    yeah i get all that, some times i look at the little we do know and i think the T5U-11 looks
    a might be nicer than the T6, then i go back to chasing my tail as that depends on the boff
    and ability set up on the T6.. hence the need for more datas :)

    I think once you get down to it its going to depend on the ship. Say you have a T6 fleet escort and a T5-U Fleet Tempest. That escort might be able to do some nifty things with those two extra powers, but how is that going to compare against Nadeon bombs amplified with 5 Mk XIV phaser fleet consoles? Is there going to be another T6 fleet science ship with the versatility of the Vesta line or something as nice as its Aux Phasers. Is cryptic going to dare a T6 fleet contemporary to the Scimitar?

    There's a lot of gaming to be had here and I think that alone is going to obscure the question of "which is better, T5-U or T6." Preference, playstyle, and equipment are going to account for a lot in that.
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  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,980 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    ghobepong wrote: »
    Actually I did pay attention, note, quoted, recapped, and even debunked. Honestly with the insults and sterotyping? You mad bro?

    Debunking does not mean contradiction. You've simply been ignoring what's posted and continuing on the same line of argumentation (I could quote but that would be quite the wall). That's not a discussion, that's a rant. Again, you can stay or go outside. Until you've made some obvious attempt at the former there's nothing productive that can be found in feeding you.

    Feel free to stay mad, but if you want to talk to other people about it you have to do more than shout.
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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  • ghobepongghobepong Member Posts: 136 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    qziqza wrote: »
    so basically what you are saying is that you dont want to spend money or time in the
    game to generate currency. but you do want to have your ships upgraded for for free
    so you can play the new expansion they have spent months putting together and not
    feel left behing in your T5/5.5 ship(s) or am i missing something?


    Oh sure, lets throw "Mo Money, Mo Money, Mo Money" into something we already contributed to? And Fleet is not as equivilent to Lobi and Lock Box. Am I missing something here or are you?
  • qziqzaqziqza Member Posts: 1,044 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    ghobepong wrote: »
    Ah, again the Justify argument and yet insulting.......... Moderator please.

    oh please, calling offense over something as slim as this just isnt cricket, its more
    akin to trying to find a way out of a discussion that you arnt fully prepared to reply
    too. if you feel your opinion has value then please stay the course. think of it like
    chess, no need to reply instantly, let the comment simmer and make a move when
    you are ready.. this is an interesting discussion you guys have going on.
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  • qziqzaqziqza Member Posts: 1,044 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    ghobepong wrote: »
    Oh sure, lets throw "Mo Money, Mo Money, Mo Money" into something we already contributed to? And Fleet is not as equivilent to Lobi and Lock Box. Am I missing something here or are you?

    see i see the upgrage as something new, the current ship is still as is when i got it, and
    can still do what it was meant to do, that hasn't changed. this expansion is something
    new, the way i see it i'll be paying say $5 to gear up my favourite ship so it can undertake
    a 10 level journey into Delta Quadrant, on top of which my experience with new systems
    and my crew will improve capability of my ship. will it be a full new T6 ship, ofc not but
    it will be close enough for my needs.

    sorry missed that last bit, if you upgrade fleet you will get the +1 console, i guess they still want
    to maintain lobi/lockbox that inch in front, how they are going to do that im not sure, possibly
    with a slightly less increase in the stat gains???
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  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,980 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    ghobepong wrote: »
    Oh sure, lets throw "Mo Money, Mo Money, Mo Money" into something we already contributed to? And Fleet is not as equivilent to Lobi and Lock Box. Am I missing something here or are you?

    Nope, you are. Fleet consoles. What are they? Upgrades on items that were previously held to be "the top." If you wanted to stay there you had to pay the dilithium and FC cost. Otherwise you would have to settle for falling back from the peak of the performance curve. The same choice if availalbe to you now. You could upgrade or you could keep to using a T5.5 ship and do just as well as, say a standard T6 ship (in terms of base stats). That's the choice people make now with standard T5 (being just a notch away from the top) and that by no means is a bar to performing well in any PVE.
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  • ghobepongghobepong Member Posts: 136 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Debunking does not mean contradiction. You've simply been ignoring what's posted and continuing on the same line of argumentation (I could quote but that would be quite the wall). That's not a discussion, that's a rant. Again, you can stay or go outside. Until you've made some obvious attempt at the former there's nothing productive that can be found in feeding you.

    Feel free to stay mad, but if you want to talk to other people about it you have to do more than shout.



    Actually first off mad? More like LMFAO at you trying to make an argument to justify the means. And continuing the same line of argument? Actually, I see someone doing the same thing and thinking they own the thread. Again Moderator please....................this is a forum. This is where people come to discuss "their" opinions about "Tier 5 Upgrades". Well that's what all of us are doing. And again well all you seem to want to do is argue "absolution" and "label" like others that folks are whining, ranting, and carrying on about nothing. Now answer me this riddle,


    How can something, be nothing? Unless it is not spoken first?


    Very much the same line, how can a question be a stupid one unless it hasn't been asked?


    Folks are asking questions to Perfectworld, folks are posting their opinions on this thread regarding "Tier V Starship Upgrades". Which is very much the topic of this thread. So lets see here, over 2k in post, that many against the fee for the Tier V Upgrades out that over now 2k in post. Lets factor folks like you into this equation.


    Well if that's shouting to you, well that's one heck of an angry mob I like to see you try to quill and preach that abosolution of yours about.
  • ghobepongghobepong Member Posts: 136 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    qziqza wrote: »
    oh please, calling offense over something as slim as this just isnt cricket, its more
    akin to trying to find a way out of a discussion that you arnt fully prepared to reply
    too. if you feel your opinion has value then please stay the course. think of it like
    chess, no need to reply instantly, let the comment simmer and make a move when
    you are ready.. this is an interesting discussion you guys have going on.



    Funny you should mention that because I love a good chess match to even a discussion like this.
  • qziqzaqziqza Member Posts: 1,044 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    ghobepong wrote: »
    Actually first off mad? More like LMFAO at you trying to make an argument to justify the means. And continuing the same line of argument? Actually, I see someone doing the same thing and thinking they own the thread. Again Moderator please....................this is a forum. This is where people come to discuss "their" opinions about "Tier 5 Upgrades". Well that's what all of us are doing. And again well all you seem to want to do is argue "absolution" and "label" like others that folks are whining, ranting, and carrying on about nothing. Now answer me this riddle,


    How can something, be nothing? Unless it is not spoken first?


    Very much the same line, how can a question be a stupid one unless it hasn't been asked?


    Folks are asking questions to Perfectworld, folks are posting their opinions on this thread regarding "Tier V Starship Upgrades". Which is very much the topic of this thread. So lets see here, over 2k in post, that many against the fee for the Tier V Upgrades out that over now 2k in post. Lets factor folks like you into this equation.


    Well if that's shouting to you, well that's one heck of an angry mob I like to see you try to quill and preach that abosolution of yours about.

    yeah but if you check over the 2k+ posts there are only really about 50 of us involved in it,
    well that was the case just after we hit the 2k mark.
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  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,980 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    ghobepong wrote: »
    Actually first off mad? More like LMFAO at you trying to make an argument to justify the means. And continuing the same line of argument? Actually, I see someone doing the same thing and thinking they own the thread. Again Moderator please....................this is a forum. This is where people come to discuss "their" opinions about "Tier 5 Upgrades". Well that's what all of us are doing. And again well all you seem to want to do is argue "absolution" and "label" like others that folks are whining, ranting, and carrying on about nothing. Now answer me this riddle,

    Let me be a little more direct.

    When you replied back to me after the 1. 2. 3. itemized post your responses had little to do with the actual content of what I wrote (where the hell did gold/silver status come from?) nor did they try to address the holes I've been pointing out in your arguments for quite some time (see. cost difference between lock box and c-store ships, this has never been anywhere on your radar from the look of things.) You simply doubled down on the attitude and tried to substitute it for a more reasonable discussion (as whatever reason you applied at first didn't give you the results you hoped it would.)

    Ergo, me to you: no, just stop. In order to try to address something as astonishingly messy as that I would have needed an even longer post and there has been absolutely NO indiciation that you would do anything more than try to contradict it (see. the Monty Python argument sketch).

    Its not worth my time or yours for that matter.
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  • ghobepongghobepong Member Posts: 136 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Nope, you are. Fleet consoles. What are they? Upgrades on items that were previously held to be "the top." If you wanted to stay there you had to pay the dilithium and FC cost. Otherwise you would have to settle for falling back from the peak of the performance curve. The same choice if availalbe to you now. You could upgrade or you could keep to using a T5.5 ship and do just as well as, say a standard T6 ship (in terms of base stats). That's the choice people make now with standard T5 (being just a notch away from the top) and that by no means is a bar to performing well in any PVE.


    Actually yes it is a choice. But the argument here is money. And money has already been put into the game. Oh please continue about how Fleet Modules are the Upgrade to a Fleet Ship. But wait that means, I already upgraded this ship to a fleet ship. No, actually I bought a fleet module toward the purchase of a fleet ship. See the C Store Ship doesn't actually become a Fleet Ship Duncanidaho it allows YOU to purchase a fleet ship. Following the Fleet Projects that were done to earn Fleet Credits. So lets see here.


    Fifteen or Twenty to Twenty Five Dollars Toward a C Store Ship.


    Then there is also now the either Exchange Purchase for a Fleet Module or Zen toward Fleet Module. Give or take also the fact of Fleet Projects and Dylithium. Yup, it's money spent. Period! No different to the Lock Box Keys bought off exchange to open Lock Box for a Starship or Lobi to purchase one.


    Again it all a mirror to one another. Just how you look at it. Which yes, if I worked and payed for a Fleet Ship? It should get the same treatment as Lobi, Lock Box, and Promotional Even Starships.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Has anybody seen anything different to the following (from Twitter, Facebook, a podcast, etc)...?

    First comparing T5 (9), T5 (10), T5-U (10), & T5-U (11) to T6...
    Then comparing T6, T5-U (11), T5-U (10), & T5 (10) to T5 (9)...

    T5-U (11 console) vs. T6

    -1 BOFF ability (unknown rank)
    -hybrid seat(s) (not listed as additional, just hybrid)
    -ability to unlock Starship Trait from Starship Mastery Level 5
    +1 console
    +hull
    +shield mod

    T5-U (10 console) vs. T6

    -1 BOFF ability (unknown rank)
    -hybrid seat(s) (not listed as additional, just hybrid)
    -ability to unlock Starship Trait from Starship Mastery Level 5

    T5 (10 console) vs. T6

    -1 BOFF ability (unknown rank)
    -hybrid seat(s) (not listed as additional, just hybrid)
    -ability to unlock Starship Trait from Starship Mastery Level 5
    -scaling HP 50-60 (have to compare vs. +hull)
    -Starship Mastery
    +hull (have to compare vs. the lack of scaling HP)
    +shield mod

    T5 (9 console) vs. T6

    -1 BOFF ability (unknown rank)
    -hybrid seat(s) (not listed as additional, just hybrid)
    -ability to unlock Starship Trait from Starship Mastery Level 5
    -scaling HP 50-60
    -Starship Mastery
    -1 console


    T6 vs. T5 (9 console)

    +1 BOFF ability (unknown rank)
    +hybrid seat(s) (not listed as additional, just hybrid)
    +ability to unlock Starship Trait from Starship Mastery Level 5
    +scaling HP 50-60
    +Starship Mastery
    +1 console

    T5-U (11 console) vs. T5 (9 console)

    +scaling HP 50-60
    +Starship Mastery
    +2 consoles
    +hull
    +shield mod

    T5-U (10 console) vs. T5 (9 console)

    +scaling HP 50-60
    +Starship Mastery
    +1 console

    T5 (10 console) vs. T5 (9 console)

    +1 console
    +hull
    +shield mod
  • ghobepongghobepong Member Posts: 136 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Let me be a little more direct.

    When you replied back to me after the 1. 2. 3. itemized post your responses had little to do with the actual content of what I wrote (where the hell did gold/silver status come from?) nor did they try to address the holes I've been pointing out in your arguments for quite some time (see. cost difference between lock box and c-store ships, this has never been anywhere on your radar from the look of things.) You simply doubled down on the attitude and tried to substitute it for a more reasonable discussion (as whatever reason you applied at first didn't give you the results you hoped it would.)

    Ergo, me to you: no, just stop. In order to try to address something as astonishingly messy as that I would have needed an even longer post and there has been absolutely NO indiciation that you would do anything more than try to contradict it (see. the Monty Python argument sketch).

    Its not worth my time or yours for that matter.


    Actually if you wanted to stop, and the worth is not your time the door is that way.
    > Let the folks post their opinions here and just accept that there are two sides to a street as well as two sides to every action and opposite reaction as well. Again carrying on.
  • ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    1. The discount of fleet ships was only applied to c-store ships then. Many ships were excluded, even from having any kind of fleet variant (see. KDF Siege Destroyer). Now, all C-store, Fleet, and Specialty ships are included in T5-U. That's every ship that had a fleet version PLUS all of those fleet versions, all those c-store ships left out last time, AND every lock box, lobi, veteran, and seasonal event ship.
    Versus now... where the same T5 ships that were not eligible for T5 fleet DISCOUNT are flat out ineligible for T5-U altogether--all the mirror, dil, and 200k FC ships are DISALLOWED FROM BUYING ANY UPGRADE PERIOD, nevermind discount, flat-out DISALLOWED. Meanwhile, ALL of the T5 ships are prohibited from upgrading to T6. Some T5 ships get the end-of-life sub-T6 upgrade, but MOST of the T5 ships have to pay to even get that, and no discount.

    This is much more stringent than the old T5 Fleet upgrade requirements.
  • ghobepongghobepong Member Posts: 136 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Versus now... where most T5 also have to pay to get even the end-of-life sub-T6 upgrade. Many of the same T5 that were not eligible for T5 fleet DISCOUNT are flat out ineligible for T5-U altogether--all the mirror, dil, and 200k FC ships are DISALLOWED FROM BUYING ANY UPGRADE PERIOD, nevermind discount, flat-out DISALLOWED. And ALL T5 ships are excluded are prohibited from upgrading to T6.

    This is much more stringent than the old T5 Fleet upgrade requirements.



    Ursusmorologus I love the way you put that and think as well.................
  • dareaudareau Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    ghobepong wrote: »
    My argument is if I payed already for the C Store ship and the fleet which I did before DR is even coming out. Then yes the grandfathering for Fleet and C Store should hold equal in getting a free upgrade because I did contribute the money for the zen and used the zen toward the ship. EITHER WAY, money was exchanged, used for zen, and purchased from the C Store. And that is the argument AGAIN right there. MONEY EXCHANGED! And me arguing over instead of celebrating for the cost of an upgrade. GET REAL! Again I payed, I played, I contributed out of pocket and that SHOULD be valued as the next person buying Lock Box Keys off the exchange or paying zen for it just for a change. The only Lock Box ships I own? Is the Mirror Universe Patrol and Advanced Escort. And may I remind you that was only when they were selling for either 15k or 20k on the Exchange. So even in one moment you are fathoming in that mind I have 40 mill in EC? WRONG, thanks for the assumption, nice of you to jump to conclusions, and the argued compliment. But all you are doing is talking hot air on topic labeling me as such a person to have all that EC and goods. BRILLIANT!


    So what's the point made? It's not just the grind or the climb Duncanidaho, BUT the FACT that people like me contributed to this game out of pocket yes to the C Store and later again to the C Store for the Fleet Ships, and you just want to undermine those folks like me as being the "majority" of "arrogant" people whining and fussing without a justifiable means.


    Well to quote Batman: "It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me!" And it's people like me you want to label and sterotype as the majority, well then let the majority speak out, and justify themselves. Love it or hate it, these folks are speaking a valid point. And SO AM I!

    Enough of this. You want to play the "invested work" card, here goes:

    Let me retoss these numbers out. Especially since monetary values are, by definition, a method to express the amount of "work", or "grind / investment", into something.

    C-store ship, $20 - $25. Lobi ship, $200. Lockbox ship, $1,250.

    By that definition, I had to "grind/invest" 8 to 10 times more on a Lobi Recluse Carrier than you did for a T5 or T5.5 C-store ship.

    And yet, you believe that your "bare minimum" grind/investment deserves to be rewarded identically to my "above and beyond" grind/investment?

    And while the values aren't out, we both can be relatively certain that T6 levels of power will cost more than T5 levels - whether it's the direct T5 to T6 jump, or via the T5U process.

    And again, you believe that your "bare minimum to reach T5 or T5.5" somehow qualifies you to get to T5U or T6? You should be thankful that Cryptic's even offering to let you pay the difference between your "already ground bare minimum" and the "new bare minimum", instead of starting over from scratch.

    Way I figure it, my Recluse is the "lifer equivalent" in ships - you know, massive up front investment for assurances I'll receive things throughout the life of the game, while your ship is the "gold subscriber" version - you paid then for the advantage then - but that doesn't cover you after the minimal investment has been made...

    So, tell me why, outside of potential special snowflake syndrome, you still deserve a free upgrade in light of the fact that I've severely out-ground/invested you?


    And on the other guy who called me out, and eventually led to the "PR manuever" call. Excellent thought - hopefully whoever's in charge might see the PR value in said decision. However, I do need to call into question what you've done since the "bad calls" of S6's upgrade process - participation, however reluctant, would be seen as "tacit approval" of the implemented plan, and then the PR person might say that said "approval" does not need a reward... :(

    And remember, after all the multi-day grindy events, someone's got it stuck in their craw that they can get/keep their numbers up, however artificially, over stretches of time with these dragged out events - a direct counter-attempt to "fix" the problem of lagging daily logins... Said PR person might elect to make more grindy-events to "fix" the login problem - maybe tie said "free PR reward upgrade" to one of those events?
    Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...

    To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
  • qziqzaqziqza Member Posts: 1,044 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    ghobepong wrote: »
    Funny you should mention that because I love a good chess match to even a discussion like this.

    i do like my chess :)

    there are many bloated posts in this thread and much of the same thing being regurgitated
    over and over, there are valid points on both sides, but many of them are burried under the
    dross so its kinda hard to pick them out (im sure ASKRAY has got more sense of it than I) i
    do think the thread has gotten to a stage where its value is maybe diminishing as it seems
    pretty much all that can be said or expressed has been many times and in many ways. i'm
    thinking that a high post count isnt what devs look for in terms of feedback, its far more
    likely they try for a general consensus and consider the constructive content that represents
    all sides concerned. are we reaching a point where this needs to be sieved for a good spread
    of data and passed on before things start to get stale and tempers flare anew??
    tYld1gu.gif?1
    TOS style icons used with the kind permission of irvinis.deviantart.com ©2013-2015
  • lystentlystent Member Posts: 1,019
    edited September 2014
    ghobepong wrote: »
    Funny you should mention that because I love a good chess match to even a discussion like this.

    *Looks at watch*...*Raises finger*...*Constrains self*
  • qziqzaqziqza Member Posts: 1,044 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    ghobepong wrote: »
    Actually yes it is a choice. But the argument here is money. And money has already been put into the game. Oh please continue about how Fleet Modules are the Upgrade to a Fleet Ship. But wait that means, I already upgraded this ship to a fleet ship. No, actually I bought a fleet module toward the purchase of a fleet ship. See the C Store Ship doesn't actually become a Fleet Ship Duncanidaho it allows YOU to purchase a fleet ship. .

    i know they have it pegged as an upgrade, but i do believe it is a new ship you recieve, i'll
    see if i can chase down the post on that..

    From the T5 Blog...

    Completing this purchase will then immediately upgrade your ship and transfer any items on the
    T5 ship to the new upgraded ship.
    tYld1gu.gif?1
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