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  • cidstormcidstorm Member Posts: 1,220 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Yeah, I've had to hold off on posting a couple dozen ("See, told ya that Cryptic hates torps!") replies in various threads...cause why run the torp when you don't have to worry about the drain and can chug-chug-chug the DHCs...meh.

    It's been hard for me not to do this too, you should make a thread.
  • zeratkzeratk Member Posts: 409
    edited July 2014
    *facepalm*
    This is Crypticverse... :mad:
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    so when are we going to see another one of your theorycrafted builds for maximum potential BO usage?

    or did you make one already in another thread and i missed it?

    Nope, lol...haven't done one of theoretical what if? builds. Only thing I did was at the bottom of this post trying to explain the 25% reduction angle...while kind of passively mumbling about what the change to drain will mean. (It means Cryptic hates Torpedoes!)

    I never did get confirmation from anybody on whether or not Sub stacked with the Improved Ambush for KDF Raiders. Cause if it did...

    Rombush
    Ambush +15%
    Subterfuge +10%

    BoPbush
    Improved Ambush +25%
    Subterfuge +10%

    Then work in some flanking action on say a Fleet HoH'SuS with 4x Tac Consoles...

    Fit in the EIC for 135 Weapon Power and the +20% final damage that gives...

    Consider a crafted Disruptor DBB...cause you can craft a [CrtD]x2[Pen] version.

    The stuff below was done without SROs, so if you worked an SRO or two in...maybe having the Naus Captain, 2x SRO, 1x Sub, and a Naus.

    And meh, I just don't have the love of math that I once did...I've been clickin' 'n scrollin' so much in the game, I've been spending more time getting [System] You have been marked as away from the keyboard (idle for too long). messages while watching Netflix on the other monitor...meh.


    Are you just running a DBB for a BO every 30s, every 15s while running 2x BO, running CD reduction on the BO? No other weapons...no Clickies...no Sci Abilities that do damage?

    Cause otherwise, why are you going to give up your Locators for Exploiters? Only the BO's going to be at 100% crit...you'd lose all sorts of damage by giving up the Locators depending on the build.

    Current BO Formula

    Base = Mk 0/TRIBBLE Damage

    BaseMagnitude = Base * (1 + WeaponPowerBoost) * (1 + BO#Boost)

    Damage = BaseMagnitude * (1 + SumAllStrengthBoost) * (1 + SumAllBonusBoost)


    New BO Formula

    Base = Mk 0/TRIBBLE Damage * 0.75

    BaseMagnitude = Base * (1 + WeaponPowerBoost) * (1 + BO#Boost)

    Damage = BaseMagnitude * (1 + SumAllStrengthBoost) * (1 + SumAllBonusBoost)


    But let's take a look at switching 4x Locators for Exploiters, and just the DBB - ignoring everything else...keeping it simple with 100% to-hit but no Accuracy Overflow:

    Current

    Base = 130

    Weapon Power = 125; 1.5 boost
    BO# = BO3; 7.46 boost

    BaseMagnitude = 130 * 2.5 * 8.46 = 2749.5

    Strength Boosts
    9 Starship Weapon Training = 0.495
    9 Starship Energy Weapons = 0.495
    TT1 (Full Crew) = 0.09
    4x Locators = 1.276
    2pc Silent = 0.076
    VR = 0.075
    Mk XII = 1.2
    Total = 3.707

    Bonus Boosts
    9 Starship Energy Weapon Specialization = 0.25
    2pc Ordnance = 0.075
    Base CrtD = 0.5
    [CrtD]x3 = 0.6
    EPtW1 = 0.1
    Rombush = 0.25
    2pc Strikeforce = 0.025
    APO3 = 0.248
    APA3 = 0.496
    APA3 CrtD = 0.496
    TacFleet2 = 0.3
    Assimilated Module = 0.092
    Tachyokinetic = 0.076
    Bioneural Infusion = 0.152
    Total = 3.66

    Damage = 2749.5 * 4.707 * 4.66 = 60309.23769

    Let's switch out those Locators for Exploiters and run it through the new formula:

    New

    Base = 130 * 0.75 = 97.5

    Weapon Power = 125; 1.5 boost
    BO# = BO3; 7.46 boost

    BaseMagnitude = 97.5 * 2.5 * 8.46 = 2062.125

    Strength Boosts
    9 Starship Weapon Training = 0.495
    9 Starship Energy Weapons = 0.495
    TT1 (Full Crew) = 0.09
    4x Exploiters = 1.276
    2pc Silent = 0.076
    VR = 0.075
    Mk XII = 1.2
    Total = 3.707

    Bonus Boosts
    9 Starship Energy Weapon Specialization = 0.25
    2pc Ordnance = 0.075
    Base CrtD = 0.5
    [CrtD]x3 = 0.6
    EPtW1 = 0.1
    Rombush = 0.25
    2pc Strikeforce = 0.025
    APO3 = 0.248
    APA3 = 0.496
    APA3 CrtD = 0.496
    TacFleet2 = 0.3
    Assimilated Module = 0.092
    Tachyokinetic = 0.076
    Bioneural Infusion = 0.152
    4x Exploiters = 0.32
    Total = 3.98

    Damage = 2062.125 * 4.707 * 4.98 = 48337.9834275

    So that's 60309.2 vs. 48338 damage for the BO3...

    While also having given up the 6.4% CrtH for everything else that's not going to have the 100% CrtH.

    It would have been 45232 instead of 48338 if you hadn't given up the Locators for the Exploiters...but yeah, it's going to drop from 60309.2 to 45232 with the change.

    What's the Current without a Crit though?

    Damage = 2749.5 * 4.707 * 2.744 = 35512.563996

    And tada, that's where you're going to get your average gain...cause you'll be looking at your number of Crits with anywhere between ~20-30% CrtH with Crits doing 60309.2 and non-Crits doing 35512.6 damage to each of the BOs (all Crits) doing 45232 damage.

    Even though it doesn't work this way, it's a chance not a guarantee...but if you had 30% CrtH and did 100 BOs...the average "would be" 42951.6...so that 45232 would be a gain in average damage. 20% "would be" 40471.9 - so that 45232 would be a gain in average damage, etc, etc, etc...

    So perhaps that's why they did the No Drain as well...cause of the hit that the BO is actually taking in max damage.

    Still have a feeling - it would need testing - that in the end though, folks are still probably going to come out ahead in the damage they're doing in a short period. That -50 Weapon Power is -100% damage for other Energy Weapon attacks, messes with Cores, etc. Sure, folks could counter it...Hell, folks were doing 2-3x BOs before that change. But still feel some testing needed to be done for how it would all play out in that regard...
  • dsarisdsaris Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Not sure what insane dev thought this was a good idea in the first place... but it should be getting a nerf in a few weeks once they realize what they've done. In the mean time, enjoy those regular 6 digit crits... we might even see 7 digit ones now.
  • brandonflbrandonfl Member Posts: 892
    edited July 2014
    dsaris wrote: »
    Not sure what insane dev thought this was a good idea in the first place... but it should be getting a nerf in a few weeks once they realize what they've done. In the mean time, enjoy those regular 6 digit crits... we might even see 7 digit ones now.

    I'm not even slightly worried about PUGs using this. Coordinated teams however, well, 18 stacks of SA, 3 Scans, a nuke, maybe some APB... yeah, 7 digits seems more than possible.
    LOLSTO
  • astro2244astro2244 Member Posts: 623 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    They're taking their business model that aims at casual players too far by introducing a spacebar/ win button. As a Vaper, I dont agree with this patch - now I'll be able to one hit everything (including seasoned vets with decent builds), making the game boring.


    Cryptic, challenge me. Make me think.



    Don't you ever use that language again! How dare you make a post on these forums that makes complete sense, Go to your room you whippersnapper! And stay off cryptics lawn!

    :D
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    [/SIGPIC]
  • glassguitarglassguitar Member Posts: 427 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Have you ever watched Star Trek?

    This is a Star Trek Battle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9Kk2GINcW4

    Or this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSqCJ-UGYns

    Star Trek battles are like big WWII navy battles, now they are like a cowboys figth, the first that shots kills.

    Probably less than 50 total shots fired in the Yesterday's clip, including a one shot from the Enterprise against the BoP. Your first link in fact completely supports the point I am making. Both clips together total about 7-8 minutes of actual fighting, again making my exact point.
  • cerritourugcerritourug Member Posts: 1,376 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Probably less than 50 total shots fired in the Yesterday's clip, including a one shot from the Enterprise against the BoP. Your first link in fact completely supports the point I am making. Both clips together total about 7-8 minutes of actual fighting, again making my exact point.


    One shot from the E? The E was focusing fire in the K`vort and we saw at least 2 or 3 hits on camara and who knows how many off camara (yea, when the camara is on the bridge the ship keeps atacking). And after a 5 minutes battle and who knows how many shots, of 3 vs 1 it only end with one ship destroy

    The other one only ended beacose they detected the BOP and fire like 6 torpedos on a un protected ship (no shields).

    Now, how that support your argument about that Star Trek is all about oneshoting? In both battles we see like you saids, 50 shots? 60? all of them hits and only with only 2 ships destroy.. know, that is like 30 hits for ship.. how that is the oneshoting that you claim that is usual in a Star Trek battle?
    __________________________________________________

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  • darramouss1darramouss1 Member Posts: 1,811 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Probably less than 50 total shots fired in the Yesterday's clip, including a one shot from the Enterprise against the BoP. Your first link in fact completely supports the point I am making. Both clips together total about 7-8 minutes of actual fighting, again making my exact point.

    Note the speed that the ships move at too. None of this warp speed around the cruisers TRIBBLE we see in this game.
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  • darramouss1darramouss1 Member Posts: 1,811 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Observation from today's PvP: People in ships with few hitpoints complain. Others don't.

    I disagree. Those who are not vapers are complaining. Others don't.
  • astro2244astro2244 Member Posts: 623 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    bwemo wrote: »
    Well, Years ago, we saw the advent of the Hilbert Guide.

    Some time passed, and we saw the addition of the Jorf Guide.

    I present to you, in glorious flowchart form, the Lorrie Guide.


    http://i.imgur.com/vGUjOYi.jpg


    :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

    I lol'd so hard I almost passed out.
    [SIGPIC]583px-Romulan_Star_Empire_logo%2C_2379.svg.png
    [/SIGPIC]
  • ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Most of my hits arent one-shotting but they are setting up for fast kill pretty reliably. At a minimum, BO3 is punching holes in shields with no weapon drain, means why not use it all the time maybe you get lucky and get a kill with the CRF, at worst you get a taste on hull. Dont need to balance damage across ISO or Protonic or anything, dont need to bother with THY timing, just BO3+CRF, and there you go. You can even hit BO3 again in just a few seconds if you held it, no penalty. Worst case, the other guy on your team with it can chain his BO3 right after yours, pretty much a guaranteed kill with 2 guys spamming it. Spam > skill, because it works better.

    Two guys running it can clear the board pretty easily.

    I guess, in a way, its like when maps were full of faw spam, everybody hated faw, when the problem was the number of them. This is shaping up the same way, it is magnitudes more effective when 3 guys are using it than when 1 guy is using it.
  • chemist6lpchemist6lp Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Observation from today's PvP: People in ships with few hitpoints complain. Others don't.


    Right. So, just because we don't fly vapers, we should stick to cruisers.
    Science for the win. / Czechoslovak Fleet 1st Division
  • tfomegatfomega Member Posts: 812 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    hahahahahahaha

    feds are dropping like flies in ker'rat.

    WTG cryptic!!!! your lack of respect for real life physics has surely paid off this time. Better save your favorite faction!

    I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
    MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
  • magniacapramagniacapra Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Please stop repeating this (albeit hilarious-sounding "ah ha devs are so dumb") soundbite. It's flat out not true.

    Something something, dunning-kruger something something.
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Most of my hits arent one-shotting but they are setting up for fast kill pretty reliably. At a minimum, BO3 is punching holes in shields with no weapon drain, means why not use it all the time maybe you get lucky and get a kill with the CRF, at worst you get a taste on hull. Dont need to balance damage across ISO or Protonic or anything, dont need to bother with THY timing, just BO3+CRF, and there you go. You can even hit BO3 again in just a few seconds if you held it, no penalty. Worst case, the other guy on your team with it can chain his BO3 right after yours, pretty much a guaranteed kill with 2 guys spamming it. Spam > skill, because it works better.

    Two guys running it can clear the board pretty easily.

    I guess, in a way, its like when maps were full of faw spam, everybody hated faw, when the problem was the number of them. This is shaping up the same way, it is magnitudes more effective when 3 guys are using it than when 1 guy is using it.

    Yep, the combination of the no drain and folks being able to work together...is kind of where the questioning statement of "I don't think this is going to change the meta like you think it will..." kind of came from.

    Sure, it's going to reduce the number of perceived one-shot kills...but it's going to increase massively the number of 1-3s kills that take place.
  • wast33wast33 Member Posts: 1,855 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    +all this long term changes they planned make me think: i do want to play a game that evolves and grows, not a different game every single (mid-)season :mad:
  • macroniusmacronius Member Posts: 2,526
    edited July 2014
    No. That's not true. Of course I could make the [Over] mod not drain power. Was it convenient to make planned changes to Beam Overload in order to alleviate the [Over] issue? Yes. But game balance changes to "meta" and "non-meta" powers have been planned for months now, and we're finally getting to start making them.

    Please stop repeating this (albeit hilarious-sounding "ah ha devs are so dumb") soundbite. It's flat out not true.

    You know the quote from Forrest Gump comes to mind.

    "Stupid is as stupid does"

    1. Eliminate drain and 100% crit ... with ridiculous stacking of severity from gear => 200K damage
    2. Put it on Tribble for less than 1 day of testing
    3. No warning and no discussion ... no engagement with the community

    Try again!
    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

    - Judge Aaron Satie
  • glassguitarglassguitar Member Posts: 427 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    One shot from the E? The E was focusing fire in the K`vort and we saw at least 2 or 3 hits on camara and who knows how many off camara (yea, when the camara is on the bridge the ship keeps atacking). And after a 5 minutes battle and who knows how many shots, of 3 vs 1 it only end with one ship destroy

    The other one only ended beacose they detected the BOP and fire like 6 torpedos on a un protected ship (no shields).

    Now, how that support your argument about that Star Trek is all about oneshoting? In both battles we see like you saids, 50 shots? 60? all of them hits and only with only 2 ships destroy.. know, that is like 30 hits for ship.. how that is the oneshoting that you claim that is usual in a Star Trek battle?

    50 shots is like one pass from CRF .... the game we play is happening at a much faster pace than anything ever seen in Star Trek.
  • darramouss1darramouss1 Member Posts: 1,811 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Ever notice how the WORST things the devs do in this game have the least amount of Tribble presence?

    I WONDER WHY!!!!!
  • chemist6lpchemist6lp Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    And to think I enjoyed my sci Vesta most of all my ships. Now it's just obsolete, because it can barely survive even one hit from BO3.

    Thanks a lot, "devs".

    PS: "Tweaking" stuff on Tribble doesn't mean that you have to be tweaked out while doing it.
    Science for the win. / Czechoslovak Fleet 1st Division
  • notrealednanotrealedna Member Posts: 1,028
    edited July 2014
    cannons have csv for AoE and crf for single target
    beams have Faw for AoE and BO for single target

    how BO works compared to Crf?

    beams online cuz having 45 degrees firing arc is too hard.

    btw the UI is still broken .Countdowns (noticed the pun) go up not down.
  • skurfskurf Member Posts: 1,071 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    No. That's not true. Of course I could make the [Over] mod not drain power. Was it convenient to make planned changes to Beam Overload in order to alleviate the [Over] issue? Yes. But game balance changes to "meta" and "non-meta" powers have been planned for months now, and we're finally getting to start making them.

    Please stop repeating this (albeit hilarious-sounding "ah ha devs are so dumb") soundbite. It's flat out not true.

    Convenient aka lazy. If you don't want people to think the devs are incompetent maybe you shouldn't always take the easiest way out. Instead, spend a little extra time to fix the root cause of an issue instead of "fixing" it with a band-aid that ends up causing more problems than it actually fixes.

    With this "fix" Cryptic has effectively made all CritH dual beam banks useless. It has made CritH Spire consoles useless for vapers and much less desirable overall. It has made the Marion drain doff useless in beam overload builds. It has made regular escorts using beam overload exponentially more powerful now since their cannon rapid fire will be hitting at a much higher weapons power level. And now, you no longer have to choose between CritH and CritD because guess what- CritH is now 100% useless! CritD all day every day and dual beam banks from here to eterenity. In one flail swoop you have made a very large portion of this game's equipment, traits, boffs and doffs now completely useless. Congrats on your self-destruction.

    Seriously, how can you make beam overload not drain weapons power? The always crit-hit thing is pretty friggin stupid and goes against the foundation mechanics of the entire game, but having BO not drain weapons power is the single dumbest thing that y'all have ever done in this game. If you want to stop being called dumb then stop making dumb decisions just because it's a little bit more "convenient."
  • macroniusmacronius Member Posts: 2,526
    edited July 2014
    skurf wrote: »
    Seriously, how can you make beam overload not drain weapons power? The always crit-hit thing is pretty friggin stupid and goes against the foundation mechanics of the entire game, but having BO not drain weapons power is the single dumbest thing that y'all have ever done in this game. If you want to stop being called dumb then stop making dumb decisions just because it's a little bit more "convenient."

    Exactly! How can a weapon on overload not use up energy ... at all? I mean not only is the concept totally stupid and non sensical but it completely destroys balance. This here is proof that either 1) the devs are incompetent or 2) this is a transparent attempt to lure people into gambling for crafting.
    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

    - Judge Aaron Satie
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited July 2014
    Lol, they could lower the damage from a BO3 by 50%, and we still would probably be at the mercy of a BO from someone like Mini.

    Giving BO a 100% chance to land a critical hit seems like a really bad approach to "fixing" the ability.

    Bring sanity back into the game, have it consume weapons power at least.
  • dius1981dius1981 Member Posts: 500
    edited July 2014
    macronius wrote: »
    Exactly! How can a weapon on overload not use up energy ... at all? I mean not only is the concept totally stupid and non sensical but it completely destroys balance. This here is proof that either 1) the devs are incompetent or 2) this is a transparent attempt to lure people into gambling for crafting.

    Your argument is WAY to logical for these forums...
    I'm actually surprised they haven't banned you yet for your STO heresy. :eek:

    D,
    OMEGA ARMADA & House of Beautiful Orions
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Please keep the QQ to a minimum.
    >>>PUNISH THE FEDs<<<
    >>>Positive Feedback from a PvE HERO<<<
  • jexsamxjexsamx Member Posts: 2,803 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    No. That's not true. Of course I could make the [Over] mod not drain power. Was it convenient to make planned changes to Beam Overload in order to alleviate the [Over] issue? Yes. But game balance changes to "meta" and "non-meta" powers have been planned for months now, and we're finally getting to start making them.

    Please stop repeating this (albeit hilarious-sounding "ah ha devs are so dumb") soundbite. It's flat out not true.

    Y'know... I often jump to Cryptic's defense in situations where the players direct abuse and insults at them. Usually it's because the players in question are either objectively idiots, or they've failed to consider the matter at hand from a perspective other than their own. In either case, it leads to a lot of unnecessary vitriol, and that makes me sad, because you devs are people too, and I can't imagine being told you suck by a number of the people you're trying to make a good product for is fun for you.

    But guys. In this case, after thinking about it... I think the players have you dead to rights. At the absolute least I'm willing to believe these changes were planned beforehand, but the timing of this change rolling out coupled with the laughably short Tribble test period and issues with the [Over] mod that this conveniently addresses leaves me with no other reasonable conclusion that this was rushed as a quick and dirty fix to a problem someone either can't or didn't want to deal with. There's just no way you could have taken any usable feedback with only one day of testing.

    It might help me understand your position better if you told us what your long-term alterations to the meta and non-meta were. There's a pretty obvious problem as it stands with NuBO, but if you've got other changes in the pipeline that alleviate the issue, it might make this slapdash and poorly thought out change easier to swallow. :\
  • spacebaronlinespacebaronline Member Posts: 1,103 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    jexsamx wrote: »
    Y'know... I often jump to Cryptic's defense in situations where the players direct abuse and insults at them. Usually it's because the players in question are either objectively idiots, or they've failed to consider the matter at hand from a perspective other than their own. In either case, it leads to a lot of unnecessary vitriol, and that makes me sad, because you devs are people too, and I can't imagine being told you suck by a number of the people you're trying to make a good product for is fun for you.

    But guys. In this case, after thinking about it... I think the players have you dead to rights. At the absolute least I'm willing to believe these changes were planned beforehand, but the timing of this change rolling out coupled with the laughably short Tribble test period and issues with the [Over] mod that this conveniently addresses leaves me with no other reasonable conclusion that this was rushed as a quick and dirty fix to a problem someone either can't or didn't want to deal with. There's just no way you could have taken any usable feedback with only one day of testing.

    It might help me understand your position better if you told us what your long-term alterations to the meta and non-meta were. There's a pretty obvious problem as it stands with NuBO, but if you've got other changes in the pipeline that alleviate the issue, it might make this slapdash and poorly thought out change easier to swallow. :\

    The next phase is to remove power drain from FAW:eek:

    I mean it's a energy weapon Boff ability to right? It's only fair!! Why should BO get a free pass and not FAW??
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