There is no point to save Romulus as it would create an alternate time line where it would exist. In STO time line it would be destroyed still.
Now why did you have to give me a time travel idea?
Using the borg temporal displacement devices and some of the known Iconian gate technology. Go to the past and set up the gates linked to the devices. Set them up so they absorb some of the energy of the hobus blast as it reaches them and sends Romulus, and I guess remus too, to the present!. History will still show Romulus destroyed, but now it and all that was lost with her could be restored! :eek:
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Now why did you have to give me a time travel idea?
Using the borg temporal displacement devices and some of the known Iconian gate technology. Go to the past and set up the gates linked to the devices. Set them up so they absorb some of the energy of the hobus blast as it reaches them and sends Romulus, and I guess remus too, to the present!. History will still show Romulus destroyed, but now it and all that was lost with her could be restored! :eek:
Shift the planet(s) into the future? What about the star? It is an interesting idea, but I'm not sure how effectively it can be accomplished.
Now why did you have to give me a time travel idea?
Using the borg temporal displacement devices and some of the known Iconian gate technology. Go to the past and set up the gates linked to the devices. Set them up so they absorb some of the energy of the hobus blast as it reaches them and sends Romulus, and I guess remus too, to the present!. History will still show Romulus destroyed, but now it and all that was lost with her could be restored! :eek:
"Shift the planet to a parallel pocket universe frozen in a single moment in time"
*Powers up tardis*
But all kidding aside Guardian of freakin forever! time to pay a visit there.
If the Federation can justify multiple time travel trips to save Earth, IMO justifying a trip back to save Romulus and Remus shouldn't be a problem. The fact that stuff like this never gets done for places like Romulus (or Vulcan, in NuTrek) is a bit of a plot hole, IMO-particularly considering that the Romulans have access to full-fledged Timeships. We would be back to 'bad guy' RSE Romulans though, which Cryptic is dead-set against, so that'll probably never happen, for that reason alone.
'Romulan Maquis' is an interesting concept though, I like it.
Love the idea of Romulus being restored! Love the idea of the Romulan being a full faction, or even able to not have to choose an alliance. All great ideas, if only Cryptic would listen. You know, like Cryptic said they would before STO launched...something to the effect of the game's direction taking the course of what player's wanted on the forums....right.:(
I couldn't care less about losing Fed & KDF assets. I'm playing a Romulan and want to be acknowledged as a Romulan in dialogue (same goes for Remans). They should add extra script to current Fed/ KDF missions that give you an alternative choice in direction with those missions. They could then develop extra alternative scenes to those current missions purely to suit Romulan interests. Hate playing a mission that is for the benefit of the Federation.
If I want Fed or KDF assets then I can always play a character from those factions, of which I already have.
I like the idea of having the choice of joining neither Fed or KDF. Why don't they make a green v green option whereby you can join the Tal Shiar and fight the Republic or visa versa. This option would occur only if you reject the Fed or KDF. It would then become available to choose when you encounter the Tal Shiar - "Join us or be destroyed" - "to be or not to be!' And if you choose this alternative option you cannot access Fed or KDF missions.
Oh for crying out loud. To everyone in this thread who wants to join the Tal'Shiar who blew the **** out of your own gorram homeworld if you will recall, Cryptic has explicitly said half a dozen times or more that they are not making evil factions.
Get used to it. :mad:
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Oh for crying out loud. To everyone in this thread who wants to join the Tal'Shiar who blew the **** out of your own gorram homeworld if you will recall, Cryptic has explicitly said half a dozen times or more that they are not making evil factions.
Get used to it. :mad:
If someone needs to 'get used to' anything, it might be you. Cryptic might have made their stance on this issue clear, but that doesn't mean that their stance is automatically above criticism.
Besides, there is some indication that these complaints have gotten us somewhere-The Tal Shiar uniforms (as incomplete as they may be), the IRW prefix, and the somewhat more scheming behavior the Republic has been taking in the more recent episodes.
So if it has gotten us that much, there's a precedent for getting more content in that direction, even if a full-fledged Star Empire faction is a beyond distant possibility.
My Romulan is Fed-Aligned and was quite happy with the way things were before D'Tan got too big for his britches. With the Republic being so small and weak that they can't even fend off the elachi they depend on Starfleet and KDF for their very existence. Unwise to bite the hand that feeds and protects you.
Would she/I like a fully independent Republic? Yes but the population and ships would have to come from somewhere given the Romulans are too weak to stand alone. That means more Imperial defectors, not less. Certainly not to have ship captains clinging to the rotting corpse of a dead empire by creating/joining a faction for it. As for the Tal Shiar they are the disease that destroyed it in the first place. They're slaves to the Iconians and thus joining the Tal Shiar is joining the Iconians, which isn't beneficial to Romulans.
As my Romulan accepts, the star empire is dead. The Republic is the strongest Romulan faction left. Best to stop clinging to a rotting, plague infested corpse and work to make the Republc able to stand independently.
But There are plenty who do. And discounting the opinions of pro-RSE players in such a manner is neither useful nor particularly accurate. pro-RSE players exist, and their voices have been heard to some small extent. It doesn't makes sense to expect us to shut up.
And in my experience most pro-RSE players aren't too fond of Cryptic's narrative that has them selling the Romulans out to the Iconians and Elachii, FYI. Most want an RSE more in line with the TNG-DS9 era Romulans-they don't want the clown parody STO Tal Shiar or the goody-two shoes Rebel Alliance that is the Republic. D'tan showing the barest hint of underhanded tactics is throwing a much-needed bone to those players.
I will thrown in support once again for what should have been done, independent faction as part of the Star Empire. Cheers for Team Green in some hopefully future Star Trek mmo.
My Romulan is Fed-Aligned and was quite happy with the way things were before D'Tan got too big for his britches. With the Republic being so small and weak that they can't even fend off the elachi they depend on Starfleet and KDF for their very existence. Unwise to bite the hand that feeds and protects you.
Agreed. A country that needs foreign military assistance just to keep large numbers of enemy ground forces off their capital planet has no business at all engaging in foreign adventurism like the DJC bullsh*t. D'Tan's overextending his people's resources and it's high time somebody reminded him that that the Rihannsu aren't a superpower anymore and that they need the Feds and Klinks a lot more than vice versa.
But all that requires Cryptic to actually think things through, and we know how well they do that.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Besides, there is some indication that these complaints have gotten us somewhere-The Tal Shiar uniforms (as incomplete as they may be), the IRW prefix, and the somewhat more scheming behavior the Republic has been taking in the more recent episodes.
All of these were present from Legacy of Romulus' launch, these aren't new things based on the complaints of the pro-TNG Romulan folks. Everything, including D'tan and company's scheming, was present in LoR at launch, the scheming just went from subtle and clever to blatant and open because folks were to stupid to not see it unless it was done in their face with a health "har har har, look at my mustache twirling scheming".
All of these were present from Legacy of Romulus' launch, these aren't new things based on the complaints of the pro-TNG Romulan folks. Everything, including D'tan and company's scheming, was present in LoR at launch, the scheming just went from subtle and clever to blatant and open because folks were to stupid to not see it unless it was done in their face with a health "har har har, look at my mustache twirling scheming".
Said items reek of 'slapped together at the last minute'. Combined with the vocal complaints when LoR was coming out when it turned out that the new Romulan faction wasn't going to be the Star Empire after all. It's pretty plausible to consider that these last minute changes were added to appease those players, with the changes in D'Tan's attitude added later to further placate such players.
'Subtle' is never a word I would use to describe the Republic or the Romulan story. Seriously, there's an entire arc with Tovan's girlfriend dedicated to beating players over the head over how the Republic is "Good and pure and honest and so is D'Tan and it is nothing like that Nasty Tal Shiar"
The Republic storyline is the exact opposite of 'subtle'. It's a straight up 'white hat, black hat' affair.
Their handling of D'Tan in the new episodes is about as subtle as Star Trek Online gets, by comparison-if arguably indicative of questionable wisdom on D'Tan's part.
Said items reek of 'slapped together at the last minute'. Combined with the vocal complaints when LoR was coming out when it turned out that the new Romulan faction wasn't going to be the Star Empire after all. It's pretty plausible to consider that these last minute changes were added to appease those players, with the changes in D'Tan's attitude added later to further placate such players.
'Subtle' is never a word I would use to describe the Republic or the Romulan story. Seriously, there's an entire arc with Tovan's girlfriend dedicated to beating players over the head over how the Republic is "Good and pure and honest and so is D'Tan and it is nothing like that Nasty Tal Shiar"
The Republic storyline is the exact opposite of 'subtle'. It's a straight up 'white hat, black hat' affair.
Their handling of D'Tan in the new episodes is about as subtle as Star Trek Online gets, by comparison-if arguably indicative of questionable wisdom on D'Tan's part.
A failure to see and understand the political manipulation that D'tan and the Republic pulled off is not a failure on Cryptic's part, but is a failure on your part. Either you are blinded by your prejudice of D'tan and the Republic as "hippies", or you lack an understanding of the subtleties of international politics and history. From a political standpoint, D'tan not only not only got two warring empires to bankroll his efforts, he also managed to get them to recognize his state as the only legitimate successor state to the RSE. Politically, that's a big deal, for as far as the Federation and Klingons are concerned, the Republic represents all Romulan interests.
Further, to ensure neither side backs out, he pitted them against one another and further put Romulan forces throughout their space via the exchange (alliance) system so that if either one DID betray the Republic, the pre-deployed assets could exact a bloody cost. It also ensured that it was hard for either Empire to make moves against the Republic, as there were Republic ships involved in many of their efforts around the galaxy.
So the Republic has a knife to the back of the Klingons and Federation to ensure they act in good faith, they are recognized as the only legitimate Romulan state, and the Klingons and Federation bankroll their efforts to become the sole successor state left standing.
Does this put the Republic in the Federation and Klingon's debt? Yes, to a certain extent. A debt partially mitigated by allowing them access to the Dysons Spheres and the technology sharing arrangements. However, it means the Federation and Klingons are treating with the Romulans as an equal, rather than as a third rate power.
Now, you'll say NONE of this is stated by any NPC, that the ideas here are just conjecture or me "making excuses". However, that is REAL subtlety. When something is done with subtlety it is not laid out or explained, the situation is presented and conclusions are drawn. The fact you need your so-called subtlety and manipulations explained to you does not mean its not subtle it merely means you are not observant.
You may also claim that D'tan claims things that seem to be the exact opposite of these ideas. Well, of course he would, as he is playing to an audience that expects a good guy to say those kind of things. He is a politician. You'll also claim that he reveals nothing like that in the unguarded moments when its just other Romulans. That also makes sense, as Romulans are noted backstabbers and traitors, and the Tal Shiar clearly has operatives in the Republic, many of whom would love to catch him saying something unguarded to use to break up his alliances with the Klingons and Federation... so of course he's going to maintain that front.
Further, he does believe the ways of the old Star Empire were failing and is trying to create a new normal for Romulan politics, one based on less treachery and backstabbing, as those caused to many problems. One without fear for the normal Romulan citizen, as they clearly lived not in happiness but in constant fear.
So yes, the Republic is a "good guy" faction. Being subtle and manipulative does not make one a villain, nor is acting in the open and up front make one a good guy. However, much of their alliance with both the Klingons and Federation are premised on a very old form of diplomacy to ensure trustworthiness between parties: the "hostage exchange". Its a classic form of diplomacy used by many civilizations on Earth, and can often be very formal with declarations and specific individuals (see, for instance within Japan' feudal culture) or can be effectively unstated as a formal exchange but the base concept underlay all political interactions (see: The Cold War).
Uh....yeah...I did notice that stuff....It's really hard not to. I don't buy that it's evidence of the Romulan Republic's subtlety. IMO you are projecting onto the gaping plot holes caused by Cryptic's hatchet job. Cryptic didn't didn't want to put forth the resources to do a full Romulan faction, so they did a half faction and tacked on the alliance system to compensate for the lesser degree of content. There is no good or Intelligent reason for the KDF and Federation to trip over each other in the rush to bend over backwards for the Republic and give them all of their toys, it makes no sense to send soldiers and weapons to two sides to serve in the military of tow said faction who are currently at war with one another. There was a whole thread discussing how monumentally stupid and counterproductive sending Romulans to fight for both sides of the conflict, because logically it would be completely disastrous and only result in reinforcing the stereotypes of Romulans as being cowardly and/or treacherous when they get in a situation where they get the choice of either withdrawing from battle or fighting other Romulans.
It's not hard to make the Republic look good when everyone around them has to act like fools in order for the whole relationship to work. That isn't subtlety, those are gaping plot holes you could fly a runabout through.
And again, these motivations you seem to believe are completely contradicted by the narrative of the story and the actions of D'Tan himself, at least until these last few episodes. It would be something if the Admiral who sacrificed himself to save the Klingons from the bomb showed up later in another episode, alive and well, or if your investigation of the Republic's activities revealed that he had been using your home planet to store arms or something, but that simply isn't the case. There simply isn't anything in the narrative that supports that theory.
TL;DR - There is nothing to indicate that your 'Head canon' is 'canon' in regards to STO, even if it was it wouldn't be subtle, because it doesn't take a lot of subtlety to take advantage of someone who's practically asking the Romulans to take all their stuff.
A failure to see and understand the political manipulation that D'tan and the Republic pulled off is not a failure on Cryptic's part, but is a failure on your part. Either you are blinded by your prejudice of D'tan and the Republic as "hippies", or you lack an understanding of the subtleties of international politics and history. From a political standpoint, D'tan not only not only got two warring empires to bankroll his efforts, he also managed to get them to recognize his state as the only legitimate successor state to the RSE. Politically, that's a big deal, for as far as the Federation and Klingons are concerned, the Republic represents all Romulan interests.
Further, to ensure neither side backs out, he pitted them against one another and further put Romulan forces throughout their space via the exchange (alliance) system so that if either one DID betray the Republic, the pre-deployed assets could exact a bloody cost. It also ensured that it was hard for either Empire to make moves against the Republic, as there were Republic ships involved in many of their efforts around the galaxy.
So the Republic has a knife to the back of the Klingons and Federation to ensure they act in good faith, they are recognized as the only legitimate Romulan state, and the Klingons and Federation bankroll their efforts to become the sole successor state left standing.
Does this put the Republic in the Federation and Klingon's debt? Yes, to a certain extent. A debt partially mitigated by allowing them access to the Dysons Spheres and the technology sharing arrangements. However, it means the Federation and Klingons are treating with the Romulans as an equal, rather than as a third rate power.
Now, you'll say NONE of this is stated by any NPC, that the ideas here are just conjecture or me "making excuses". However, that is REAL subtlety. When something is done with subtlety it is not laid out or explained, the situation is presented and conclusions are drawn. The fact you need your so-called subtlety and manipulations explained to you does not mean its not subtle it merely means you are not observant.
You may also claim that D'tan claims things that seem to be the exact opposite of these ideas. Well, of course he would, as he is playing to an audience that expects a good guy to say those kind of things. He is a politician. You'll also claim that he reveals nothing like that in the unguarded moments when its just other Romulans. That also makes sense, as Romulans are noted backstabbers and traitors, and the Tal Shiar clearly has operatives in the Republic, many of whom would love to catch him saying something unguarded to use to break up his alliances with the Klingons and Federation... so of course he's going to maintain that front.
Further, he does believe the ways of the old Star Empire were failing and is trying to create a new normal for Romulan politics, one based on less treachery and backstabbing, as those caused to many problems. One without fear for the normal Romulan citizen, as they clearly lived not in happiness but in constant fear.
So yes, the Republic is a "good guy" faction. Being subtle and manipulative does not make one a villain, nor is acting in the open and up front make one a good guy. However, much of their alliance with both the Klingons and Federation are premised on a very old form of diplomacy to ensure trustworthiness between parties: the "hostage exchange". Its a classic form of diplomacy used by many civilizations on Earth, and can often be very formal with declarations and specific individuals (see, for instance within Japan' feudal culture) or can be effectively unstated as a formal exchange but the base concept underlay all political interactions (see: The Cold War).
With all due respect I can't help laughing. the Republic has a knife to the Federation and Klingon Empires backs?...... The same Republic that occupies only a small part of Tau Dewa space maybe several planets being very generous, the same Republic that couldn't even defend New Romulus from the Elachi without the Federation and Klingon Empire? and the Same Republic that has a tiny tiny part of New Romulus settled? Someone has been drinking cryptics khellid necter too long.
Yet I sense a touch irony here you mention "a knife to their backs" wait wait stop the presses!!!!
So what do we call that? I'll let your post answer it for me (see original post in orange). *Gasp* "the old ways!":eek: So this "Hostage exchange" type diplomacy you mention of pitting two factions against each other, is really nothing different then the tactics that the Romulan Star Empire used before.
Lastly to say that the Republic represents all Romulan interests is the same as saying the Federation represents all Human interests or the Klingon Empire all Klingon interests. Personal opinion and nothing more.
It's not hard to make the Republic look good when everyone around them has to act like fools in order for the whole relationship to work. That isn't subtlety, those are gaping plot holes you could fly a BORG CUBE through.
With all due respect I can't help laughing. the Republic has a knife to the Federation and Klingon Empires backs?...... The same Republic that occupies only a small part of Tau Dewa space maybe several planets being very generous, the same Republic that couldn't even defend New Romulus from the Elachi without the Federation and Klingon Empire? and the Same Republic that has a tiny tiny part of New Romulus settled? Someone has been drinking cryptics khellid necter too long.
Yet I sense a touch irony here you mention "a knife to their backs" wait wait stop the presses!!!!
So what do we call that? I'll let your post answer it for me (see original post in orange). *Gasp* "the old ways!":eek: So this "Hostage exchange" type diplomacy you mention of pitting two factions against each other, is really nothing different then the tactics that the Romulan Star Empire used before.
Lastly to say that the Republic represents all Romulan interests is the same as saying the Federation represents all Human interests or the Klingon Empire all Klingon interests. Personal opinion and nothing more.
The comcept is that with Romulans on Federation and KDF ships, they will either get advanced notice of hostilities. Mol'rihan will get advanced notice if they suddenly start going silent. Or and this is the knife. If they keep those captains in the dark, able to engage in retribution. Personally I see a fourth option.
Let's make the kdf the aggressors. They purge the romulan captains and assault mol'rihan. The romulan captains in th federation were outside their grasp. Now their enemy will have a group of blood sworn captains and they have little compunction to not hand the federation romulan battle cloaks.
The knife in this case is the "You kill me and you will die." scenario. Whether it is a bluff or not is debatable.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Alright, lets run a few variants of a scenario and consider what the ramifications would logically be-A Klingon raiding fleet is attacking a Federation convoy-a Romulan ship is part of both fleets:
1) High command is aware and tells both Romulan captains to stay out of the fleet: Klingons are angry because Romulans are cowardly and won't back them up-and possibly further angered by the Fed Rom possibly giving away the element of surprise and flying away from the convoy. Feds are angry that their Rom for letting them get ambushed, and not supporting them in said ambush. Romulans are viewed as unreliable and trecharous (since they have no problem attacking their 'allies' when opposite-aligned Romulans are not present)
2) High Command tells one of the captains to stand down. One of the sides (KDF or Federation) is furious for basically backstabbing them ('allied' Romulan refuses to fight, but 'enemy' Romulan attacks) Treaty arrangement ends pretty much immediately.
3) High command tells nobody, Romulans attack each other. Counterproductive in the extreme to Romulan interests. Further weakens the Republic, which is already overextended and can barely protect its own interests. Romulans question D'Tan's sanity and a new leader is quickly put in his place.
4) High Command tells nobody, Romulans *don't* attack each other. As bad as it is when your allies desert you right before your time of need, it's still pretty awful when they (for example) -refuse to shoot at the Mogai on your tail.
Also on this subject, we know further problematic aspects of this 'alliance that need mentioning:
1) There are Republic officers serving on Starfleet and KDF ships.
2) There are KDF and Starfleet officers serving on Repulbic ships.
3) Republic ships *Do* engage ships of the faction they are not aligned with, with intent to destroy or capture.
4) Romulans aligned with the KDF may involve themselves in slavery and piracy against civilians as well.
5) The only episode that addresses any of these obvious problems shows that High Command's communication skills are not reliable in preventing KDF and Fed Romulans from getting into conflict.
Pretty much everything about the 'alliance' seems designed to sabotage the stability of the alliance. It would be one thing if Romulans were only authorized to work with the Federation and KDF against Republic enemies like the Tal Shiar or Elachii, but that's just not how it works, and things like the Officer exchange program complicates things even more.
Alright, lets run a few variants of a scenario and consider what the ramifications would logically be-A Klingon raiding fleet is attacking a Federation convoy-a Romulan ship is part of both fleets:
1) High command is aware and tells both Romulan captains to stay out of the fleet: Klingons are angry because Romulans are cowardly and won't back them up-and possibly further angered by the Fed Rom possibly giving away the element of surprise and flying away from the convoy. Feds are angry that their Rom for letting them get ambushed, and not supporting them in said ambush. Romulans are viewed as unreliable and trecharous (since they have no problem attacking their 'allies' when opposite-aligned Romulans are not present)
2) High Command tells one of the captains to stand down. One of the sides (KDF or Federation) is furious for basically backstabbing them ('allied' Romulan refuses to fight, but 'enemy' Romulan attacks) Treaty arrangement ends pretty much immediately.
3) High command tells nobody, Romulans attack each other. Counterproductive in the extreme to Romulan interests. Further weakens the Republic, which is already overextended and can barely protect its own interests. Romulans question D'Tan's sanity and a new leader is quickly put in his place.
4) High Command tells nobody, Romulans *don't* attack each other. As bad as it is when your allies desert you right before your time of need, it's still pretty awful when they (for example) -refuse to shoot at the Mogai on your tail.
Also on this subject, we know further problematic aspects of this 'alliance that need mentioning:
1) There are Republic officers serving on Starfleet and KDF ships.
2) There are KDF and Starfleet officers serving on Repulbic ships.
3) Republic ships *Do* engage ships of the faction they are not aligned with, with intent to destroy or capture.
4) Romulans aligned with the KDF may involve themselves in slavery and piracy against civilians as well.
5) The only episode that addresses any of these obvious problems shows that High Command's communication skills are not reliable in preventing KDF and Fed Romulans from getting into conflict.
Pretty much everything about the 'alliance' seems designed to sabotage the stability of the alliance. It would be one thing if Romulans were only authorized to work with the Federation and KDF against Republic enemies like the Tal Shiar or Elachii, but that's just not how it works, and things like the Officer exchange program complicates things even more.
Okay the obvious answer to these points is. . . . Uhm. . . Anybody?
Okay, yes. Good points.
Only counterpoint. As Riker did when he was an exchange officer.
"I will fight and die for this ship and crew. But I will not betray my oaths!"
"If you had given me the information, I would have killed you where you stand."
Kdf Romulan fires on Fed convoy. Fed Rom defends convoy to his last breath. Both live and die by their oaths. D'tan reminds the Federation that the high command does not inform him of fleet movements and neither does the federation. Both parties are at war and the Republic let no secrets out. Makes the Romulans look honourable to the Klingons, and modestly trust worthy to the federation.
Now change the squadron makeups so this cannot occur again or there will be a lot of diplomatic fur flying.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Okay the obvious answer to these points is. . . . Uhm. . . Anybody?
Okay, yes. Good points.
Only counterpoint. As Riker did when he was an exchange officer.
"I will fight and die for this ship and crew. But I will not betray my oaths!"
"If you had given me the information, I would have killed you where you stand."
Kdf Romulan fires on Fed convoy. Fed Rom defends convoy to his last breath. Both live and die by their oaths. D'tan reminds the Federation that the high command does not inform him of fleet movements and neither does the federation. Both parties are at war and the Republic let no secrets out. Makes the Romulans look honourable to the Klingons, and modestly trust worthy to the federation.
Now change the squadron makeups so this cannot occur again or there will be a lot of diplomatic fur flying.
Unfortunately, as I see it, that solution doesn't really help with issues 1, 2 and 4. We'd still have Romulans blowing up, and being blown up by both the KDF and Starfleet. To say nothing of the issues that will inevitably arise due to Romulans serving on the Bridge crews and away teams of both Starfleet and the KDF. Again, my opinion is that the whole alliance thing logically would fail within the first month of its adoption. (to say nothing of the slim probability of it being adopted in the first place).
It's a great example of how the whole alliance system screws with the Republic narrative(despite the contortions Cryptic already forced the Romulans into in order to have the square romulan peg fit into the round hole of the Republic), and why we'd be better off if we had an independent faction status, as unlikely as that seems in the near future. The restrictions imposed narratively and tonally by the Republic's 'alliance' have just been terribly unnatural and plot-hole filled so far-I consider it to be quite the burden for the Republic.
Unfortunately, as I see it, that solution doesn't really help with issues 1, 2 and 4. We'd still have Romulans blowing up, and being blown up by both the KDF and Starfleet. To say nothing of the issues that will inevitably arise due to Romulans serving on the Bridge crews and away teams of both Starfleet and the KDF. Again, my opinion is that the whole alliance thing logically would fail within the first month of its adoption. (to say nothing of the slim probability of it being adopted in the first place).
It's a great example of how the whole alliance system screws with the Republic narrative(despite the contortions Cryptic already forced the Romulans into in order to have the square romulan peg fit into the round hole of the Republic), and why we'd be better off if we had an independent faction status, as unlikely as that seems in the near future. The restrictions imposed narratively and tonally by the Republic's 'alliance' have just been terribly unnatural and plot-hole filled so far-I consider it to be quite the burden for the Republic.
1 & 2 is an officer exchange program to learn from your allies. Just like the Riker on a BoP I mentioned.
4. Okay this is bad writing. But what they did was hand you the doff system of the faction you went to and not created a proper one for the Romulans to show their ideals instead.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
If the Federation can justify multiple time travel trips to save Earth, IMO justifying a trip back to save Romulus and Remus shouldn't be a problem. The fact that stuff like this never gets done for places like Romulus (or Vulcan, in NuTrek) is a bit of a plot hole, IMO-particularly considering that the Romulans have access to full-fledged Timeships. We would be back to 'bad guy' RSE Romulans though, which Cryptic is dead-set against, so that'll probably never happen, for that reason alone.
'Romulan Maquis' is an interesting concept though, I like it.
To be fair, I do not think that Cryptic is opposed to the idea. If the dev team could have written a story about an elite group of Romulan operatives who sneaked into the Guardian with a small cloaked ship, gone back in time, and stopped the baddies who attacked Hobus; I think they would have.
I think that since Abrams (sp?) has been given carte blanche with the ST universe, CBS is the IP holder who gets to say, yes you can have Romulus back or no you can't. I think STO would have greatly benefited from a time mission that could have restored Romulus at that point in time for players and it would have smoothed out many problems. Of course these are my own opinions.
No one is playing KDF anymore, so lets just let KDF become Romulan Star Empire. We will take in the handful of Klingons and Nausicans lost out in the galaxy.
Based on what data? Do you have access to Cryptic's player base? Can you provide a link to the document listing the ratio of Fed/KDF/Rom characters active in the game please?
so lets just let KDF become Romulan Star Empire. We will take in the handful of Klingons and Nausicans lost out in the galaxy.
Nooo spank you!
I'm happy being a Romulan thanks, and I do not need to have all those Klingons running around the command center ... They let their Targs TRIBBLE anywhere ya know ...
Comments
There is no point to save Romulus as it would create an alternate time line where it would exist. In STO time line it would be destroyed still.
[Combat (Self)] You lose 6549 (7572) Cold from the torment of the underworld.
In-game handle @Janetza
Now why did you have to give me a time travel idea?
Using the borg temporal displacement devices and some of the known Iconian gate technology. Go to the past and set up the gates linked to the devices. Set them up so they absorb some of the energy of the hobus blast as it reaches them and sends Romulus, and I guess remus too, to the present!. History will still show Romulus destroyed, but now it and all that was lost with her could be restored! :eek:
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Shift the planet(s) into the future? What about the star? It is an interesting idea, but I'm not sure how effectively it can be accomplished.
"Shift the planet to a parallel pocket universe frozen in a single moment in time"
*Powers up tardis*
But all kidding aside Guardian of freakin forever! time to pay a visit there.
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'Romulan Maquis' is an interesting concept though, I like it.
If I want Fed or KDF assets then I can always play a character from those factions, of which I already have.
I like the idea of having the choice of joining neither Fed or KDF. Why don't they make a green v green option whereby you can join the Tal Shiar and fight the Republic or visa versa. This option would occur only if you reject the Fed or KDF. It would then become available to choose when you encounter the Tal Shiar - "Join us or be destroyed" - "to be or not to be!' And if you choose this alternative option you cannot access Fed or KDF missions.
Get used to it. :mad:
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Besides, there is some indication that these complaints have gotten us somewhere-The Tal Shiar uniforms (as incomplete as they may be), the IRW prefix, and the somewhat more scheming behavior the Republic has been taking in the more recent episodes.
So if it has gotten us that much, there's a precedent for getting more content in that direction, even if a full-fledged Star Empire faction is a beyond distant possibility.
My Romulan is Fed-Aligned and was quite happy with the way things were before D'Tan got too big for his britches. With the Republic being so small and weak that they can't even fend off the elachi they depend on Starfleet and KDF for their very existence. Unwise to bite the hand that feeds and protects you.
Would she/I like a fully independent Republic? Yes but the population and ships would have to come from somewhere given the Romulans are too weak to stand alone. That means more Imperial defectors, not less. Certainly not to have ship captains clinging to the rotting corpse of a dead empire by creating/joining a faction for it. As for the Tal Shiar they are the disease that destroyed it in the first place. They're slaves to the Iconians and thus joining the Tal Shiar is joining the Iconians, which isn't beneficial to Romulans.
As my Romulan accepts, the star empire is dead. The Republic is the strongest Romulan faction left. Best to stop clinging to a rotting, plague infested corpse and work to make the Republc able to stand independently.
Of course not.
But There are plenty who do. And discounting the opinions of pro-RSE players in such a manner is neither useful nor particularly accurate. pro-RSE players exist, and their voices have been heard to some small extent. It doesn't makes sense to expect us to shut up.
And in my experience most pro-RSE players aren't too fond of Cryptic's narrative that has them selling the Romulans out to the Iconians and Elachii, FYI. Most want an RSE more in line with the TNG-DS9 era Romulans-they don't want the clown parody STO Tal Shiar or the goody-two shoes Rebel Alliance that is the Republic. D'tan showing the barest hint of underhanded tactics is throwing a much-needed bone to those players.
Does my Rommie care? *shrug*
Agreed. A country that needs foreign military assistance just to keep large numbers of enemy ground forces off their capital planet has no business at all engaging in foreign adventurism like the DJC bullsh*t. D'Tan's overextending his people's resources and it's high time somebody reminded him that that the Rihannsu aren't a superpower anymore and that they need the Feds and Klinks a lot more than vice versa.
But all that requires Cryptic to actually think things through, and we know how well they do that.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
All of these were present from Legacy of Romulus' launch, these aren't new things based on the complaints of the pro-TNG Romulan folks. Everything, including D'tan and company's scheming, was present in LoR at launch, the scheming just went from subtle and clever to blatant and open because folks were to stupid to not see it unless it was done in their face with a health "har har har, look at my mustache twirling scheming".
'Subtle' is never a word I would use to describe the Republic or the Romulan story. Seriously, there's an entire arc with Tovan's girlfriend dedicated to beating players over the head over how the Republic is "Good and pure and honest and so is D'Tan and it is nothing like that Nasty Tal Shiar"
The Republic storyline is the exact opposite of 'subtle'. It's a straight up 'white hat, black hat' affair.
Their handling of D'Tan in the new episodes is about as subtle as Star Trek Online gets, by comparison-if arguably indicative of questionable wisdom on D'Tan's part.
http://www.bassfishing.co.za/resources/ror.jpg
A failure to see and understand the political manipulation that D'tan and the Republic pulled off is not a failure on Cryptic's part, but is a failure on your part. Either you are blinded by your prejudice of D'tan and the Republic as "hippies", or you lack an understanding of the subtleties of international politics and history. From a political standpoint, D'tan not only not only got two warring empires to bankroll his efforts, he also managed to get them to recognize his state as the only legitimate successor state to the RSE. Politically, that's a big deal, for as far as the Federation and Klingons are concerned, the Republic represents all Romulan interests.
Further, to ensure neither side backs out, he pitted them against one another and further put Romulan forces throughout their space via the exchange (alliance) system so that if either one DID betray the Republic, the pre-deployed assets could exact a bloody cost. It also ensured that it was hard for either Empire to make moves against the Republic, as there were Republic ships involved in many of their efforts around the galaxy.
So the Republic has a knife to the back of the Klingons and Federation to ensure they act in good faith, they are recognized as the only legitimate Romulan state, and the Klingons and Federation bankroll their efforts to become the sole successor state left standing.
Does this put the Republic in the Federation and Klingon's debt? Yes, to a certain extent. A debt partially mitigated by allowing them access to the Dysons Spheres and the technology sharing arrangements. However, it means the Federation and Klingons are treating with the Romulans as an equal, rather than as a third rate power.
Now, you'll say NONE of this is stated by any NPC, that the ideas here are just conjecture or me "making excuses". However, that is REAL subtlety. When something is done with subtlety it is not laid out or explained, the situation is presented and conclusions are drawn. The fact you need your so-called subtlety and manipulations explained to you does not mean its not subtle it merely means you are not observant.
You may also claim that D'tan claims things that seem to be the exact opposite of these ideas. Well, of course he would, as he is playing to an audience that expects a good guy to say those kind of things. He is a politician. You'll also claim that he reveals nothing like that in the unguarded moments when its just other Romulans. That also makes sense, as Romulans are noted backstabbers and traitors, and the Tal Shiar clearly has operatives in the Republic, many of whom would love to catch him saying something unguarded to use to break up his alliances with the Klingons and Federation... so of course he's going to maintain that front.
Further, he does believe the ways of the old Star Empire were failing and is trying to create a new normal for Romulan politics, one based on less treachery and backstabbing, as those caused to many problems. One without fear for the normal Romulan citizen, as they clearly lived not in happiness but in constant fear.
So yes, the Republic is a "good guy" faction. Being subtle and manipulative does not make one a villain, nor is acting in the open and up front make one a good guy. However, much of their alliance with both the Klingons and Federation are premised on a very old form of diplomacy to ensure trustworthiness between parties: the "hostage exchange". Its a classic form of diplomacy used by many civilizations on Earth, and can often be very formal with declarations and specific individuals (see, for instance within Japan' feudal culture) or can be effectively unstated as a formal exchange but the base concept underlay all political interactions (see: The Cold War).
Uh....yeah...I did notice that stuff....It's really hard not to. I don't buy that it's evidence of the Romulan Republic's subtlety. IMO you are projecting onto the gaping plot holes caused by Cryptic's hatchet job. Cryptic didn't didn't want to put forth the resources to do a full Romulan faction, so they did a half faction and tacked on the alliance system to compensate for the lesser degree of content. There is no good or Intelligent reason for the KDF and Federation to trip over each other in the rush to bend over backwards for the Republic and give them all of their toys, it makes no sense to send soldiers and weapons to two sides to serve in the military of tow said faction who are currently at war with one another. There was a whole thread discussing how monumentally stupid and counterproductive sending Romulans to fight for both sides of the conflict, because logically it would be completely disastrous and only result in reinforcing the stereotypes of Romulans as being cowardly and/or treacherous when they get in a situation where they get the choice of either withdrawing from battle or fighting other Romulans.
It's not hard to make the Republic look good when everyone around them has to act like fools in order for the whole relationship to work. That isn't subtlety, those are gaping plot holes you could fly a runabout through.
And again, these motivations you seem to believe are completely contradicted by the narrative of the story and the actions of D'Tan himself, at least until these last few episodes. It would be something if the Admiral who sacrificed himself to save the Klingons from the bomb showed up later in another episode, alive and well, or if your investigation of the Republic's activities revealed that he had been using your home planet to store arms or something, but that simply isn't the case. There simply isn't anything in the narrative that supports that theory.
TL;DR - There is nothing to indicate that your 'Head canon' is 'canon' in regards to STO, even if it was it wouldn't be subtle, because it doesn't take a lot of subtlety to take advantage of someone who's practically asking the Romulans to take all their stuff.
With all due respect I can't help laughing. the Republic has a knife to the Federation and Klingon Empires backs?...... The same Republic that occupies only a small part of Tau Dewa space maybe several planets being very generous, the same Republic that couldn't even defend New Romulus from the Elachi without the Federation and Klingon Empire? and the Same Republic that has a tiny tiny part of New Romulus settled? Someone has been drinking cryptics khellid necter too long.
Yet I sense a touch irony here you mention "a knife to their backs" wait wait stop the presses!!!!
So what do we call that? I'll let your post answer it for me (see original post in orange). *Gasp* "the old ways!":eek: So this "Hostage exchange" type diplomacy you mention of pitting two factions against each other, is really nothing different then the tactics that the Romulan Star Empire used before.
Lastly to say that the Republic represents all Romulan interests is the same as saying the Federation represents all Human interests or the Klingon Empire all Klingon interests. Personal opinion and nothing more.
[/SIGPIC]
fixed it for ya
The comcept is that with Romulans on Federation and KDF ships, they will either get advanced notice of hostilities. Mol'rihan will get advanced notice if they suddenly start going silent. Or and this is the knife. If they keep those captains in the dark, able to engage in retribution. Personally I see a fourth option.
Let's make the kdf the aggressors. They purge the romulan captains and assault mol'rihan. The romulan captains in th federation were outside their grasp. Now their enemy will have a group of blood sworn captains and they have little compunction to not hand the federation romulan battle cloaks.
The knife in this case is the "You kill me and you will die." scenario. Whether it is a bluff or not is debatable.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
1) High command is aware and tells both Romulan captains to stay out of the fleet: Klingons are angry because Romulans are cowardly and won't back them up-and possibly further angered by the Fed Rom possibly giving away the element of surprise and flying away from the convoy. Feds are angry that their Rom for letting them get ambushed, and not supporting them in said ambush. Romulans are viewed as unreliable and trecharous (since they have no problem attacking their 'allies' when opposite-aligned Romulans are not present)
2) High Command tells one of the captains to stand down. One of the sides (KDF or Federation) is furious for basically backstabbing them ('allied' Romulan refuses to fight, but 'enemy' Romulan attacks) Treaty arrangement ends pretty much immediately.
3) High command tells nobody, Romulans attack each other. Counterproductive in the extreme to Romulan interests. Further weakens the Republic, which is already overextended and can barely protect its own interests. Romulans question D'Tan's sanity and a new leader is quickly put in his place.
4) High Command tells nobody, Romulans *don't* attack each other. As bad as it is when your allies desert you right before your time of need, it's still pretty awful when they (for example) -refuse to shoot at the Mogai on your tail.
Also on this subject, we know further problematic aspects of this 'alliance that need mentioning:
1) There are Republic officers serving on Starfleet and KDF ships.
2) There are KDF and Starfleet officers serving on Repulbic ships.
3) Republic ships *Do* engage ships of the faction they are not aligned with, with intent to destroy or capture.
4) Romulans aligned with the KDF may involve themselves in slavery and piracy against civilians as well.
5) The only episode that addresses any of these obvious problems shows that High Command's communication skills are not reliable in preventing KDF and Fed Romulans from getting into conflict.
Pretty much everything about the 'alliance' seems designed to sabotage the stability of the alliance. It would be one thing if Romulans were only authorized to work with the Federation and KDF against Republic enemies like the Tal Shiar or Elachii, but that's just not how it works, and things like the Officer exchange program complicates things even more.
Okay the obvious answer to these points is. . . . Uhm. . . Anybody?
Okay, yes. Good points.
Only counterpoint. As Riker did when he was an exchange officer.
"I will fight and die for this ship and crew. But I will not betray my oaths!"
"If you had given me the information, I would have killed you where you stand."
Kdf Romulan fires on Fed convoy. Fed Rom defends convoy to his last breath. Both live and die by their oaths. D'tan reminds the Federation that the high command does not inform him of fleet movements and neither does the federation. Both parties are at war and the Republic let no secrets out. Makes the Romulans look honourable to the Klingons, and modestly trust worthy to the federation.
Now change the squadron makeups so this cannot occur again or there will be a lot of diplomatic fur flying.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
It's a great example of how the whole alliance system screws with the Republic narrative(despite the contortions Cryptic already forced the Romulans into in order to have the square romulan peg fit into the round hole of the Republic), and why we'd be better off if we had an independent faction status, as unlikely as that seems in the near future. The restrictions imposed narratively and tonally by the Republic's 'alliance' have just been terribly unnatural and plot-hole filled so far-I consider it to be quite the burden for the Republic.
1 & 2 is an officer exchange program to learn from your allies. Just like the Riker on a BoP I mentioned.
4. Okay this is bad writing. But what they did was hand you the doff system of the faction you went to and not created a proper one for the Romulans to show their ideals instead.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
To be fair, I do not think that Cryptic is opposed to the idea. If the dev team could have written a story about an elite group of Romulan operatives who sneaked into the Guardian with a small cloaked ship, gone back in time, and stopped the baddies who attacked Hobus; I think they would have.
I think that since Abrams (sp?) has been given carte blanche with the ST universe, CBS is the IP holder who gets to say, yes you can have Romulus back or no you can't. I think STO would have greatly benefited from a time mission that could have restored Romulus at that point in time for players and it would have smoothed out many problems. Of course these are my own opinions.
I'm happy being a Romulan thanks, and I do not need to have all those Klingons running around the command center ... They let their Targs TRIBBLE anywhere ya know ...