patrickngo: I disagree. I mostly play Romulan in rememberence of the Romulans in STNG - so of course I rather sided with the KDF than with Star Fleet. I would prefer beeing left out by the makers a little bit, if I could play like a real Romulan (not that we have the choice).
chipg7: Well, to be honest, that it was I mean with Federation-biased-point of view in the films. Star Trek generelly is harmed and dregaded by a lack of many writers to accept a foreign society which did not share the political system and moral values of the Federation (you see that also if you look on the picture which many old films show of the Klingons - surely a picture which was corrected later). So of course they sided with the people who are against the ruling system - ignoring that in most societies the main part of people act different, and would never support enemies (instead beeing the first to call the security forces if they detected foreigners or people who work to overthrow the political system of the Empire). And the point of view of Federation infiltrators are of course influenced because they face either the Rotten Belly (the people who disagree with the Empire) or the Iron Fist (TS and armed forces) of the Empire.
For Romulan people, I think, the Star Empire was their own, build over centuries, something about they could be proud off. Their very core of their existence. Their family-members had fought in the wars, were in many cases killed by Klingons, Federation or other foes (and several of them surely were part of the security forces and even the TS). Of course there were SOME people who dream about another society, re-unification with Vulcan etc. But they are a minority, nothing more - a minority the Federation (and the filmmakers) were focussed or even obsessed onto. Most people simply want to make the day, want to prosper INSIDE the society and system - and are influenced by the traditions of the Romulan society, which clearly teaches distrust towards the Federation, the Klingons, looking down to the Remans and claiming an Empire for their own as their birthright. So the action of D'Tan would be very hurting for them, since he seems to sell all that out.
AND there is a little difficulty. D'Tan did not work on a peaceful living as far as I could say. He put Romulans on BOTH sides of a ongoing war and he did not much to end the Romulan civil war (when the TS contacked him he acted not very enthusiastic). If he want peace for the Romulan people, than he should act much much different, I think. More centering on ending the civil war, less sending his people abroad in battles they could not win.
markhawkman: "Death to..." sounds a little bit other than only the end of the organisation, so you hand to understand my point of view. And why not changing the leadership as an option?
kodachikuno and feiqa: I agree with your oints of view, mainly my problems, too.
I tend to agree in some points, for sure. Romulans left Vulcan many centuries ago because they felt that the total-logic approach was an affront to a positive way of life. So yes, I can certainly see that the Romulan people in general should feel affinity to the RSE, being a strong, lasting empire that they themselves built from nothing.
The way I see the development of popular Romulan thought from TNG to 2410 (and I don't think I alluded to this strongly enough in my previous post), is that there's a tendency to view that the RSE has taken unnecessary excesses. And one of those excesses is surely a Tal Shair 'intelligence' service that is willing to go above and beyond the cause of peace, by silencing all dissenters and abducting them. There is probably a great deal of yearning for the old stability of the original RSE, given the turmoil of the past decades. But I'd think that many Romulans are probably following D'Tan largely - if not solely - because he's presenting the strongest opposition to the Tal Shiar-dominated new RSE. He's providing a new state for the Romulan people, but without the fear.
I know for me, personally, that's the reason I'm sticking with the Republic in STO. I like what I'm seeing, in that there's an emerging, strong Romulan state that can live without some of the unpleasantness of the Tal Shiar.
I think the D'Tan we've been seeing most recently in the seasons is the one I hope to see continue to grow. Now that he played the open hand of friendship, he's turning the tables and forging a role for the Republic that, if not as strong as the RSE once was, at least remains formidable. I'll refer again to the Solanae conference - not only did he force his way in there as an independent state, but he also made sure that everyone was aware that the point-of-access was in Republic space, and he even went as far as covertly recording the sessions. I was also impressed that he started playing the sly political card right off the bat, in that he's constantly been watching the internal politics of the Federation and Klingon Empire.
I disagree here, see above for my reasoning behind the D'Tan hate
Small clarification. My point about him tossing Spock around is that he is showing naivety and not standing on his own feet. The strongest I felt for him was actually at Khitomer when Tovan was going off and he barked at Tovan and dismissed him and the player.
And as for the conference, I don't think the blatant cameras were shrewed except to cover the hidden trick. Monitor the communications of the other parties.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Well, but will a lot of Romulans not more thinking the way "some aspects have to be corrected", (the power of the Senate restored, those of the TS reduced, for example), but not throwing away the old empire-idea and ideology, changing their society so much as D'Tan seem to want? I think not only the stability of the old Empire will be missed, but also the power, the proudness to feel as part of a huge Empire which was one of the major powers in the Alpha and Beta Quadrant. Now the Romulans may come to the point of view that some of their new leaders sell out what is left, instead of trying to rebuild.
As I said before, I am a little bit sceptical that the STNG etc. shows a good picture of the societies which are hostile towards the Federation. We see them in the point of view and in the "adventures" from a tiny minority of Star Fleet officers - hardly enough to judge a society. With the same right you could claim that there may be enough material for several glorious stories about a Romulan Warbird/ a Cardassian battlecruiser/ a Dominion warship (or, shortly before the time of the original series, a story like the famous Battlecruiser Vengeance for the KDF), about a crew which acts inside their society and their values, facing unknown danger and superior foes, in endless battles and incidents in which perhaps more than once the cunning member of the Tal Shiar/ Obsidian Order (Or Klingon Intelligence) on board of the ship save the day. Is that beyond imagination? The Federation point of view is nearly every time one who sided with the enemies of the political system/values/ideology, the fleets and the security forces of the foes and rivals of the Federation. So it might be the picture is very much unbalanced. Both Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order exist according to some sources for centuries, or at least decades, and surely did a lot do stabilize the Empires they serve (of course by force and against other nations - as the Klingon Intelligence does also, I guess). To reduce them to two-dimensional villains who seem to do nothing more than bullying others seem a little bit easy.
And are you sure that a lot of the Romulans who DID follow D'Tan did not also do so because he is simple one of the few choices they have after Sela went missing? The rest of the Empire is in disorder, and before the people accept Klingon and Federation leadership, they choose D'Tan. That mean not that they must share his hostility towards the TS and (more or less) the old Empire (I mean, he seems not even to cry about the loss of the Empire, and he did nothing to try to rebuild it, or claim at least to do so). He more speaks about coming together with the Vulcans than with the old nobility (what is left) and other sources of tradition and stability - or at least that is my impression.
And the question is, DID he offer a Romulan State without fear? I think he do not. The KIND of fear may have changed, but not the fear as such. New Romulos is a fragile new home, on which fights with other forces occour still. The reason is, that the Republic is still weak (and you could argue if that is not one result of his "send our people to both the KDF and Star Fleet"). He did little do end the civil war, at least for now, what would not only end the needless hostilities between the (compared to the past) few Romulans who are left, but also giving the new Romulan State the ability to stand on its own feet - what the Republic did not could for now. For that he would clearly need the help of Imperial Remnants and even parts of the TS - their ships, men and worlds/ressources. Do you not believe that the majority of Romulans want to see at first all Romulans reunited, so that they could travel to the remaining worlds of the old Empire, on which many may have relatives? I guess many families have also members not only inside the worlds which remain under control of TS/ Imperial Remnants, but also members in their FORCES (as I said before, the TS as shown in STO is a HUGE organization which must have perhaps hundreds of thousands of men and women in their ranks - I mean, to manage at least a fleet which matters need so many people, and the stations, the groundforces etc...).
Such a reunification could lead to a real independent New Romulos, a new Empire which is of course for many years weaker than the old, but have the potential to grow.
It is true D'Tan shows at least SOME aspects of standing for his own in the last time, but for me he shows far too less worry about the weakness of the Republic (grabbing one sphere after the other while he could not even defend the own sector) and do nothing to end the civil war by reuniting with the forces who are left from the Empire. He seems simply not the man who sacrifies his idea of a new society (and perhaps coming together with Vulcans) for saving the Romulan people and their influence as such, even if that mean that he must give up some of his dreams. That is a point on which I see him as the wrong men at the wrong place. A idealist who follow foreign ideologies and ideas, but hurts the believes of many of the people he claim to stands for. Such a man could not and should not rule for long.
And since I have a point of view of Romulans more like those we have seen in the past (centred on tradition, personal honour in serving the state etc., proud of what they be) I am not very satisfied with the D'Tan-Romulans. He and his people are not the way Romulans were in the past - it is the same as if the whole Klingon Empire would be made out of Worf-Klingons (I guess at least several Klingon-players would not like that so much). Since I see my Romulan char in a more traditional way, he is very, VERY unhappy with D'Tan...
And here we have come to the point we've highlighted the biggest problem in STO... Cryptic's mentality of 'QUICK RUSH TO THE NEXT BIG BAD THING!' instead of wrapping up the plot(s) of the last few. The Romulan situation is the worst of it sure but, for example, the Elachi took a hit but then just disappear? It took them 4yrs to advance the plot of the Fed/KDF war and it was little more than 'well **** there are bigger fish to fry, lets be friends again.'
And here we have come to the point we've highlighted the biggest problem in STO... Cryptic's mentality of 'QUICK RUSH TO THE NEXT BIG BAD THING!' instead of wrapping up the plot(s) of the last few. The Romulan situation is the worst of it sure but, for example, the Elachi took a hit but then just disappear? It took them 4yrs to advance the plot of the Fed/KDF war and it was little more than 'well **** there are bigger fish to fry, lets be friends again.'
Here is a point I wish to argue with you in ernest. . . and can't. It really is a glaring weakness in the writing. We do not see the Elachi again except as a token force to get spanked by the new carrier. Then we get the Voth, but they are only sorta a bad guy. Then the Undine come full force and go back to the background. Shouldn't Delta rising be about going after the undine? just saying.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
markhawkman: Why? Is ist proofen that all of them are EVIL EVIL villains who torture a cute little animal every morning just to show ha BAD they are? Even between the few leading members you speak with there are some who are open for arguments (and since you clash with them, it is no wonder that they tend not to speak much with people who shoot at their men).
Nobody argue about the whole management of the Remans have to go, too, and the Reman leadership was involved in Shinzons criminal coup, and how they acted later, well, we know...
kodachikuno and feiqa: Good point, I would say. Perhaps it is a little bit like in some series - every one or two dozen need another big challange for the protagonists, so new antagonists are introduced and roasted every year... That might introduce new plots, but somehow the story becomes inconsistant
Not the best idea, I would say (and I agree it would be very, VERY pitty if the war KDF-Fed end).
markhawkman: Why? Is ist proofen that all of them are EVIL EVIL villains who torture a cute little animal every morning just to show ha BAD they are? Even between the few leading members you speak with there are some who are open for arguments (and since you clash with them, it is no wonder that they tend not to speak much with people who shoot at their men).
The only leading member we've actually interacted with is Hakeev, but we have no reason to believe he isn't representative as far as story role (if not personality; I find it hard to believe there's more than one buffoon like that in the whole organization). The Tal'Shiar have a vested interest in things staying the way they are, with them as the Empire's Waffen SS. There's no place for a Waffen SS expy in a democracy.
The underlings, however, are all over the map: straight villains like Khiana, indoctrinated unfortunates like Charva, and then there's the oddballs like Janek who are at the point of realizing that the Tal'Shiar really don't have the Romulans' best interests at heart, but can't see how to get out. The Republic needs to be actively reaching out to the ones like Janek whom they can plausibly turn.
Nobody argue about the whole management of the Remans have to go, too, and the Reman leadership was involved in Shinzons criminal coup, and how they acted later, well, we know...
That's because that was settled amicably years before Hobus. The Empire did a punitive blockade of Remus for several years, but then they freed the Remans and even gave them a new planet to settle on. Then they slid back into the old ways after Hobus because the racist dickhead wing of Romulan society couldn't let go.
kodachikuno and feiqa: Good point, I would say. Perhaps it is a little bit like in some series - every one or two dozen need another big challange for the protagonists, so new antagonists are introduced and roasted every year... That might introduce new plots, but somehow the story becomes inconsistant
Not the best idea, I would say (and I agree it would be very, VERY pitty if the war KDF-Fed end).
Very much agreed. Cryptic's got a growing pile of Aborted Arcs that it seems they're never going to actually finish.
Fodder for the Foundry, I say.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
My main thought about the Tal'Shiar is this: what sort of underlings would you expect someone like Hakeev to have? Hakeev is the kind of person to execute anyone he feels doesn't match his ideal of a perfect subordinate. Thus he has probably "weeded out" most of those who don't meet his standards.
The only leading member we've actually interacted with is Hakeev, but we have no reason to believe he isn't representative as far as story role (if not personality; I find it hard to believe there's more than one buffoon like that in the whole organization). The Tal'Shiar have a vested interest in things staying the way they are, with them as the Empire's Waffen SS. There's no place for a Waffen SS expy in a democracy.
The underlings, however, are all over the map: straight villains like Khiana, indoctrinated unfortunates like Charva, and then there's the oddballs like Janek who are at the point of realizing that the Tal'Shiar really don't have the Romulans' best interests at heart, but can't see how to get out. The Republic needs to be actively reaching out to the ones like Janek whom they can plausibly turn.
But it could be turned into a proper internal affairs division. And I wholeheartedly agree. Janek is the one I wish we could save. Her argument with Hakeev was telling. "THEY WERE CIVILIANS!". Get her as a Doff, Boff, or better yet a leadership role in the RR government bringing those like Charva back into the fold. They do have the betterment of Romulans at heart. They deserve better than isolated cells or cold graves.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
My main thought about the Tal'Shiar is this: what sort of underlings would you expect someone like Hakeev to have? Hakeev is the kind of person to execute anyone he feels doesn't match his ideal of a perfect subordinate. Thus he has probably "weeded out" most of those who don't meet his standards.
Explain Janek.
Also Hakeev's only a colonel, not a flag officer. He just leads one unit. There's other Tal'Shiar task groups around: the ones wandering around ch'Mol'Rihan aren't affiliated with Hakeev's group (because Hakeev's dead by then). Possibly they have more lax recruitment standards.
But it could be turned into a proper internal affairs division.
Please look up Waffen SS on Wikipedia. I'll wait.
There is no need or use for a paramilitary political compliance enforcement agency with a private army in a democracy. That entirely defeats the purpose of that system of government. And in every single canon Tal'Shiar intelligence operation, they were either ineffective or outright dupes. For Pete's sake, their chairman during the Dominion War was a double agent for Starfleet Intelligence! (EDIT: Or Section 31; I forget which and I can't be arsed to look it up right now.)
The Republic's internal security agencies will be homegrown and beholden to nobody but the Romulan government and people, and that's as it should be. People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.
And I wholeheartedly agree. Janek is the one I wish we could save. Her argument with Hakeev was telling. "THEY WERE CIVILIANS!". Get her as a Doff, Boff, or better yet a leadership role in the RR government bringing those like Charva back into the fold. They do have the betterment of Romulans at heart. They deserve better than isolated cells or cold graves.
Well, we tried to redeem Charva and it didn't work. She's too far gone. The light bulb's gotta want to change.*
Janek, though, it would've been nice to have her defect to the Republic after "Mine Enemy" and turn into a recurring character.
* Q: How many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb? A: One, but it takes at least six months and the light bulb's gotta want to change.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Well, I thought her case was obvious, but since you asked so nicely.
When Hakeev is talking to her, her threatens to kill her if she doesn't carry out his orders to the letter. Why? because she makes the mistake of displaying moral scruples. More specifically she objects to executing the prisoners. After she grudgingly agrees to do it, she says something to the prisoners like "I'll probably be joining you soon. If Hakeev gets his way, we all will."
Then later after the player beats her she mutters about how Hakeev will probably kill her for her failure.
starswordc: Janek was already mentioned. Another high ranking member of the TS try to contact D'Tan to find some sort of agreement. That shows they are not every time at the throat of any other people. Even when it comes to people who are their enemies and which they had reason to hate. They and the Republic are in active hostilities - but it seems they are more willingly to speak than some members of the Romulan Republic/Reman-alliance.
And it is a little bit simple to say: oh, we did bad bad things to the Remans, so they had the right to slaughter our leaders, to nearly destroy our Empire (Shinzon) or to use weapons to destroy a complete planet only to kill a few TS. I guess that were not the only crimes the Remans commited during their "fight for freedom". Second, I think it is naive to think the ordinary Romulan will accept a agreement with the Remans who did such things (and the Klingons and the Federation) but the policy of NOT to doing so with fellow Romulans. The own people are in most cases of more interest for ordinary people than teaming with long time enemies.
And I think it is wrong that some people always come with the Waffen-SS. The TS ist NOT the Waffen-SS, and the Star Empire not the Third Reich. Thay have nearly nothing in common - if someone would look deeper into the historical details. It may make it more easy to kill them if you say "Ah, I killing Nazies with pointed ears" but it is wrong. It is complicated if alien nations are "humanized" so much (indeed one of the big problems with Star Trek as general, the believe that some human values and ideologies should be general and followed by all species around the Galaxy - itself more than a little bit rascist point of view - and that those who do not follow this course are easily set as eaquel with some human dictatorships etc.). The TS has a long tradition of serving the Empire - over decades or even centuries (sources are not clear at this point). Of course also with repression and sneaky tactics (what comes from their nature as secret service). But they (ot at least most of them) have NOT a consistent ideology of slaughtering complete "races" just because they are members of a ethnical group, women and children alike, and the TS ist build out from a complete different ideology and background than the Waffen-SS. The TS was NOT build as a tool for a war for the domination of the whole Galaxy (what a galactic Waffen-SS would be). The Romulan Empire was a power within a balance of power. They strike against others and try to change the circumstances, but more often inside the existing system.
Perhaps some people want to see themselves as Inglorious TRIBBLE slaying TRIBBLE in the Space when they fight the TS. I say that is a perspective which is not correct.
And the canon is that the TS was feared and highly sucessful in the Alpha and Beta Quadrant over decades. They had misfortune sometimes (and that the perspective is centred so much on that is of course the result of the Federation-biased point of view of the series - you could hardyl show the Enterprise and its crew, beeing over and over again been beaten by the Tal Shiar or other enemies - they MUST be victorious). But how many actions the TS got through while nobody noticed them? To see them as incomtetent is simply wrong (or please show me the place in canon were it is stated "The TS was build out of incompetent sadists").
markhawkman: But do you believe Hakeev have had any member of the TS sorted out? The origanization is HUGE and given to her character as secret service it had many cells and branches. Hakeev is not the master of (TS) universe. They must controll a huge fleet and several planets etc. That mean they have a lot of staff, even of higher rank. To believe they are all little Hakeev-clones seems hard to believe.
feiqa
Yes, that would be a good idea. Someone like Janek and/or another high ranking member of the Imperial Remnants would be a rally-point inside the Republic and a possible bride towards other parts of the Romulan society (it would made sense from a internal perspective). But I am afraid such a thing would not happen...
There is no need or use for a paramilitary political compliance enforcement agency with a private army in a democracy. That entirely defeats the purpose of that system of government. And in every single canon Tal'Shiar intelligence operation, they were either ineffective or outright dupes. For Pete's sake, their chairman during the Dominion War was a double agent for Starfleet Intelligence! (EDIT: Or Section 31; I forget which and I can't be arsed to look it up right now.)
The Republic's internal security agencies will be homegrown and beholden to nobody but the Romulan government and people, and that's as it should be. People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.
I said an internal affairs division. A group handling justice within the ranks of the military and the police forces to weed out those that abuse their power. I hate to use the phrase, however, From a certain point of view all internal affairs groups are paramilitary political compliance enforcement agencies. Even those in democratic governments. It is just enforcing the will and ideals of that democracy.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
I said an internal affairs division. A group handling justice within the ranks of the military and the police forces to weed out those that abuse their power. I hate to use the phrase, however, From a certain point of view all internal affairs groups are paramilitary political compliance enforcement agencies. Even those in democratic governments. It is just enforcing the will and ideals of that democracy.
Oh, give me a break, you know damn well what I meant. There is a huge difference between arresting somebody for committing murder or selling secrets and spiriting somebody away and executing them after a show trial for disagreeing with the head of state. And that "from a certain point of view" line was stupid back when Obi-wan said it.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Oh, give me a break, you know damn well what I meant. There is a huge difference between arresting somebody for committing murder or selling secrets and spiriting somebody away and executing them after a show trial for disagreeing with the head of state. And that "from a certain point of view" line was stupid back when Obi-wan said it.
I know that in the instance I stated you twisted it to an impossibility. And I said I hated to use the phrase. But, NCIS is a paramilitary political enforcement group. It polices the navy and marines. Police internal affairs divisions police the police. My statement was if we brought the right people from the tal Shiar, Janek as an example, the group could be remade into something useful and good out of the sewage that Hakeev dragged it through. Not policing citizens, but the military and police of the Romulans.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
And I want to add that is difficult to judge a alien society after human points of view. With the same right you could judge (for example) ancient human civilizations and say "There is no need for priests who sacrifice animals or even humans, how savage were this people when they believed in this!" Or, if you want a Star Trek example "There is no need for a honouricentred, aggressive bunch of warriors" like the KDF (a force which has no problems with pillaging, raiding etc.).
The TS (and the organizations who come before) were over centuries part of a grown society and political system, which has developed in a very different way than the human, the Vulcan or some others. It is only logical that it is hard from a human point of view to see it as in-play many romulans do. The point of view of the series is anything but romulan, it is human centred - and by this not those of the majority of the Romulans.
Who knows if not many Romulan people have at least some acceptance towards the TS - "They may do rude things, sometimes abuse their power, but they protect us against internal conflict and external infiltration." And looking back at the past of the Romulans (an growing Empire at war with different factions, and with the potential of uprisings of both the Remans and other minor, conquered species - which domination by the Romulans the majority of the romulan population surely see as justified) this point of view is from that perspective correct. Even INSIDE dictatorships it is naive to think that the majority of the people did want nothing more than to overthrow the rule of the king/ religious leader/ ruling party. In many cases the opposite is the fact - and even more if it comes to contact with foreign forces and also internal uprising, even more from a group which is seen as "inferior" like the Remans. And the Romulan state has a tradition which is even much older than many human political systems (at least older than the Federation, while I do not know how old exactly), so its values is way of living is deeply in the mind of most Romulans - nothing strange, alies which is brought upon them from outside.
A lot of material from TNG and DS9 seems to indicate that Romulan culture is steeped heavily in tradition, obedience to the government, militarism, etc. It wouldn't be too unreasonable to expect a lot of Romulans to be more comfortable with the ways of the old Empire-Tal Shiar and all.
It's obvious that they stepped far over the already generous line in STO, but I suppose it could always be re-instituted, with the traitors removed and more checks put on the Tal Shiar's power. It would probably give the Republic more legitimacy in the eyes of the traditionalists.
An episode where the Tal Shiar General from the New Romulus missions surrenders or (openly) goes into negotiations with D'Tan would go a long way towards reuniting the Empire, I think.
Of course you are right, some parts of the TS have clearly left the ground even most traditional Romulans would accept - but that happened also in the past (and similar also inside the military and political leadership, I guess)
What you write would also mean that the official STO picture of the TS AND the Republic had to become both a little bit more grey (different kind of grey, but grey in both cases) than clear "white" and "black" - and I am afraid that will not happen. But hope dies last, a lecture the Romulans we play had learned the hard way...:D
Yeah know there was a interview done with P1 about this ages ago. I cant believe this is coming up yet again.
Are you talking about the one where the dev (can't remember which one) said we'd never get a villainous faction because they don't generate enough money?
Ya know it occurred to me earlier that when they revamped the borg missions we lost that one ground mission in fluidic space, which iirc, was the one point where you learn that Sela's ability to become Empress was seriously influenced by Undine manipulation pity that, because that info always seemed, to me, to be a great bullet to fire off at Imperial Remnant factions.
Ya know it occurred to me earlier that when they revamped the borg missions we lost that one ground mission in fluidic space, which iirc, was the one point where you learn that Sela's ability to become Empress was seriously influenced by Undine manipulation pity that, because that info always seemed, to me, to be a great bullet to fire off at Imperial Remnant factions.
Probably why it got cut. They want to change the previous lore and move the story a different way.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Ya know it occurred to me earlier that when they revamped the borg missions we lost that one ground mission in fluidic space, which iirc, was the one point where you learn that Sela's ability to become Empress was seriously influenced by Undine manipulation pity that, because that info always seemed, to me, to be a great bullet to fire off at Imperial Remnant factions.
Yes, moving the story to a conflict between Sela and Donatra (they're both coming back around eventually).
An episode where the Tal Shiar General from the New Romulus missions surrenders or (openly) goes into negotiations with D'Tan would go a long way towards reuniting the Empire, I think.
MAJOR DR SPOILER ALERT BELOW; HIGHLIGHT AND READ AT OWN RISK
one of the republic intelligence offcers you work with in the delta rising episode arc is a former tal shiar deep cover agent; not your tal shiar general, but still noteworthy
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Thats sound interesting (at least if it is not too much "I now have seen the light and work against the BAD BAD for the GOOD GOOD ). Well, it is not so much longer to wait, we will see...:D
Comments
Enabran Tain's. And according to records he was encouraged to think it was a good idea by a changling infiltrator in the Tal Shiar.
(Sorry just the idea of 'we know where their homeworld is. Let's blow it up.' Sounded disastrous before I saw the result.)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
My character Tsin'xing
chipg7: Well, to be honest, that it was I mean with Federation-biased-point of view in the films. Star Trek generelly is harmed and dregaded by a lack of many writers to accept a foreign society which did not share the political system and moral values of the Federation (you see that also if you look on the picture which many old films show of the Klingons - surely a picture which was corrected later). So of course they sided with the people who are against the ruling system - ignoring that in most societies the main part of people act different, and would never support enemies (instead beeing the first to call the security forces if they detected foreigners or people who work to overthrow the political system of the Empire). And the point of view of Federation infiltrators are of course influenced because they face either the Rotten Belly (the people who disagree with the Empire) or the Iron Fist (TS and armed forces) of the Empire.
For Romulan people, I think, the Star Empire was their own, build over centuries, something about they could be proud off. Their very core of their existence. Their family-members had fought in the wars, were in many cases killed by Klingons, Federation or other foes (and several of them surely were part of the security forces and even the TS). Of course there were SOME people who dream about another society, re-unification with Vulcan etc. But they are a minority, nothing more - a minority the Federation (and the filmmakers) were focussed or even obsessed onto. Most people simply want to make the day, want to prosper INSIDE the society and system - and are influenced by the traditions of the Romulan society, which clearly teaches distrust towards the Federation, the Klingons, looking down to the Remans and claiming an Empire for their own as their birthright. So the action of D'Tan would be very hurting for them, since he seems to sell all that out.
AND there is a little difficulty. D'Tan did not work on a peaceful living as far as I could say. He put Romulans on BOTH sides of a ongoing war and he did not much to end the Romulan civil war (when the TS contacked him he acted not very enthusiastic). If he want peace for the Romulan people, than he should act much much different, I think. More centering on ending the civil war, less sending his people abroad in battles they could not win.
markhawkman: "Death to..." sounds a little bit other than only the end of the organisation, so you hand to understand my point of view. And why not changing the leadership as an option?
kodachikuno and feiqa: I agree with your oints of view, mainly my problems, too.
The way I see the development of popular Romulan thought from TNG to 2410 (and I don't think I alluded to this strongly enough in my previous post), is that there's a tendency to view that the RSE has taken unnecessary excesses. And one of those excesses is surely a Tal Shair 'intelligence' service that is willing to go above and beyond the cause of peace, by silencing all dissenters and abducting them. There is probably a great deal of yearning for the old stability of the original RSE, given the turmoil of the past decades. But I'd think that many Romulans are probably following D'Tan largely - if not solely - because he's presenting the strongest opposition to the Tal Shiar-dominated new RSE. He's providing a new state for the Romulan people, but without the fear.
I know for me, personally, that's the reason I'm sticking with the Republic in STO. I like what I'm seeing, in that there's an emerging, strong Romulan state that can live without some of the unpleasantness of the Tal Shiar.
I think the D'Tan we've been seeing most recently in the seasons is the one I hope to see continue to grow. Now that he played the open hand of friendship, he's turning the tables and forging a role for the Republic that, if not as strong as the RSE once was, at least remains formidable. I'll refer again to the Solanae conference - not only did he force his way in there as an independent state, but he also made sure that everyone was aware that the point-of-access was in Republic space, and he even went as far as covertly recording the sessions. I was also impressed that he started playing the sly political card right off the bat, in that he's constantly been watching the internal politics of the Federation and Klingon Empire.
Small clarification. My point about him tossing Spock around is that he is showing naivety and not standing on his own feet. The strongest I felt for him was actually at Khitomer when Tovan was going off and he barked at Tovan and dismissed him and the player.
And as for the conference, I don't think the blatant cameras were shrewed except to cover the hidden trick. Monitor the communications of the other parties.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Well, but will a lot of Romulans not more thinking the way "some aspects have to be corrected", (the power of the Senate restored, those of the TS reduced, for example), but not throwing away the old empire-idea and ideology, changing their society so much as D'Tan seem to want? I think not only the stability of the old Empire will be missed, but also the power, the proudness to feel as part of a huge Empire which was one of the major powers in the Alpha and Beta Quadrant. Now the Romulans may come to the point of view that some of their new leaders sell out what is left, instead of trying to rebuild.
As I said before, I am a little bit sceptical that the STNG etc. shows a good picture of the societies which are hostile towards the Federation. We see them in the point of view and in the "adventures" from a tiny minority of Star Fleet officers - hardly enough to judge a society. With the same right you could claim that there may be enough material for several glorious stories about a Romulan Warbird/ a Cardassian battlecruiser/ a Dominion warship (or, shortly before the time of the original series, a story like the famous Battlecruiser Vengeance for the KDF), about a crew which acts inside their society and their values, facing unknown danger and superior foes, in endless battles and incidents in which perhaps more than once the cunning member of the Tal Shiar/ Obsidian Order (Or Klingon Intelligence) on board of the ship save the day. Is that beyond imagination? The Federation point of view is nearly every time one who sided with the enemies of the political system/values/ideology, the fleets and the security forces of the foes and rivals of the Federation. So it might be the picture is very much unbalanced. Both Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order exist according to some sources for centuries, or at least decades, and surely did a lot do stabilize the Empires they serve (of course by force and against other nations - as the Klingon Intelligence does also, I guess). To reduce them to two-dimensional villains who seem to do nothing more than bullying others seem a little bit easy.
And are you sure that a lot of the Romulans who DID follow D'Tan did not also do so because he is simple one of the few choices they have after Sela went missing? The rest of the Empire is in disorder, and before the people accept Klingon and Federation leadership, they choose D'Tan. That mean not that they must share his hostility towards the TS and (more or less) the old Empire (I mean, he seems not even to cry about the loss of the Empire, and he did nothing to try to rebuild it, or claim at least to do so). He more speaks about coming together with the Vulcans than with the old nobility (what is left) and other sources of tradition and stability - or at least that is my impression.
And the question is, DID he offer a Romulan State without fear? I think he do not. The KIND of fear may have changed, but not the fear as such. New Romulos is a fragile new home, on which fights with other forces occour still. The reason is, that the Republic is still weak (and you could argue if that is not one result of his "send our people to both the KDF and Star Fleet"). He did little do end the civil war, at least for now, what would not only end the needless hostilities between the (compared to the past) few Romulans who are left, but also giving the new Romulan State the ability to stand on its own feet - what the Republic did not could for now. For that he would clearly need the help of Imperial Remnants and even parts of the TS - their ships, men and worlds/ressources. Do you not believe that the majority of Romulans want to see at first all Romulans reunited, so that they could travel to the remaining worlds of the old Empire, on which many may have relatives? I guess many families have also members not only inside the worlds which remain under control of TS/ Imperial Remnants, but also members in their FORCES (as I said before, the TS as shown in STO is a HUGE organization which must have perhaps hundreds of thousands of men and women in their ranks - I mean, to manage at least a fleet which matters need so many people, and the stations, the groundforces etc...).
Such a reunification could lead to a real independent New Romulos, a new Empire which is of course for many years weaker than the old, but have the potential to grow.
It is true D'Tan shows at least SOME aspects of standing for his own in the last time, but for me he shows far too less worry about the weakness of the Republic (grabbing one sphere after the other while he could not even defend the own sector) and do nothing to end the civil war by reuniting with the forces who are left from the Empire. He seems simply not the man who sacrifies his idea of a new society (and perhaps coming together with Vulcans) for saving the Romulan people and their influence as such, even if that mean that he must give up some of his dreams. That is a point on which I see him as the wrong men at the wrong place. A idealist who follow foreign ideologies and ideas, but hurts the believes of many of the people he claim to stands for. Such a man could not and should not rule for long.
And since I have a point of view of Romulans more like those we have seen in the past (centred on tradition, personal honour in serving the state etc., proud of what they be) I am not very satisfied with the D'Tan-Romulans. He and his people are not the way Romulans were in the past - it is the same as if the whole Klingon Empire would be made out of Worf-Klingons (I guess at least several Klingon-players would not like that so much). Since I see my Romulan char in a more traditional way, he is very, VERY unhappy with D'Tan...
My character Tsin'xing
Here is a point I wish to argue with you in ernest. . . and can't. It really is a glaring weakness in the writing. We do not see the Elachi again except as a token force to get spanked by the new carrier. Then we get the Voth, but they are only sorta a bad guy. Then the Undine come full force and go back to the background. Shouldn't Delta rising be about going after the undine? just saying.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Nobody argue about the whole management of the Remans have to go, too, and the Reman leadership was involved in Shinzons criminal coup, and how they acted later, well, we know...
kodachikuno and feiqa: Good point, I would say. Perhaps it is a little bit like in some series - every one or two dozen need another big challange for the protagonists, so new antagonists are introduced and roasted every year... That might introduce new plots, but somehow the story becomes inconsistant
Not the best idea, I would say (and I agree it would be very, VERY pitty if the war KDF-Fed end).
The underlings, however, are all over the map: straight villains like Khiana, indoctrinated unfortunates like Charva, and then there's the oddballs like Janek who are at the point of realizing that the Tal'Shiar really don't have the Romulans' best interests at heart, but can't see how to get out. The Republic needs to be actively reaching out to the ones like Janek whom they can plausibly turn.
That's because that was settled amicably years before Hobus. The Empire did a punitive blockade of Remus for several years, but then they freed the Remans and even gave them a new planet to settle on. Then they slid back into the old ways after Hobus because the racist dickhead wing of Romulan society couldn't let go.
Very much agreed. Cryptic's got a growing pile of Aborted Arcs that it seems they're never going to actually finish.
Fodder for the Foundry, I say.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
My character Tsin'xing
But it could be turned into a proper internal affairs division. And I wholeheartedly agree. Janek is the one I wish we could save. Her argument with Hakeev was telling. "THEY WERE CIVILIANS!". Get her as a Doff, Boff, or better yet a leadership role in the RR government bringing those like Charva back into the fold. They do have the betterment of Romulans at heart. They deserve better than isolated cells or cold graves.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Also Hakeev's only a colonel, not a flag officer. He just leads one unit. There's other Tal'Shiar task groups around: the ones wandering around ch'Mol'Rihan aren't affiliated with Hakeev's group (because Hakeev's dead by then). Possibly they have more lax recruitment standards.
Please look up Waffen SS on Wikipedia. I'll wait.
There is no need or use for a paramilitary political compliance enforcement agency with a private army in a democracy. That entirely defeats the purpose of that system of government. And in every single canon Tal'Shiar intelligence operation, they were either ineffective or outright dupes. For Pete's sake, their chairman during the Dominion War was a double agent for Starfleet Intelligence! (EDIT: Or Section 31; I forget which and I can't be arsed to look it up right now.)
The Republic's internal security agencies will be homegrown and beholden to nobody but the Romulan government and people, and that's as it should be. People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.
Well, we tried to redeem Charva and it didn't work. She's too far gone. The light bulb's gotta want to change.*
Janek, though, it would've been nice to have her defect to the Republic after "Mine Enemy" and turn into a recurring character.
* Q: How many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb? A: One, but it takes at least six months and the light bulb's gotta want to change.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
When Hakeev is talking to her, her threatens to kill her if she doesn't carry out his orders to the letter. Why? because she makes the mistake of displaying moral scruples. More specifically she objects to executing the prisoners. After she grudgingly agrees to do it, she says something to the prisoners like "I'll probably be joining you soon. If Hakeev gets his way, we all will."
Then later after the player beats her she mutters about how Hakeev will probably kill her for her failure.
My character Tsin'xing
And it is a little bit simple to say: oh, we did bad bad things to the Remans, so they had the right to slaughter our leaders, to nearly destroy our Empire (Shinzon) or to use weapons to destroy a complete planet only to kill a few TS. I guess that were not the only crimes the Remans commited during their "fight for freedom". Second, I think it is naive to think the ordinary Romulan will accept a agreement with the Remans who did such things (and the Klingons and the Federation) but the policy of NOT to doing so with fellow Romulans. The own people are in most cases of more interest for ordinary people than teaming with long time enemies.
And I think it is wrong that some people always come with the Waffen-SS. The TS ist NOT the Waffen-SS, and the Star Empire not the Third Reich. Thay have nearly nothing in common - if someone would look deeper into the historical details. It may make it more easy to kill them if you say "Ah, I killing Nazies with pointed ears" but it is wrong. It is complicated if alien nations are "humanized" so much (indeed one of the big problems with Star Trek as general, the believe that some human values and ideologies should be general and followed by all species around the Galaxy - itself more than a little bit rascist point of view - and that those who do not follow this course are easily set as eaquel with some human dictatorships etc.). The TS has a long tradition of serving the Empire - over decades or even centuries (sources are not clear at this point). Of course also with repression and sneaky tactics (what comes from their nature as secret service). But they (ot at least most of them) have NOT a consistent ideology of slaughtering complete "races" just because they are members of a ethnical group, women and children alike, and the TS ist build out from a complete different ideology and background than the Waffen-SS. The TS was NOT build as a tool for a war for the domination of the whole Galaxy (what a galactic Waffen-SS would be). The Romulan Empire was a power within a balance of power. They strike against others and try to change the circumstances, but more often inside the existing system.
Perhaps some people want to see themselves as Inglorious TRIBBLE slaying TRIBBLE in the Space when they fight the TS. I say that is a perspective which is not correct.
And the canon is that the TS was feared and highly sucessful in the Alpha and Beta Quadrant over decades. They had misfortune sometimes (and that the perspective is centred so much on that is of course the result of the Federation-biased point of view of the series - you could hardyl show the Enterprise and its crew, beeing over and over again been beaten by the Tal Shiar or other enemies - they MUST be victorious). But how many actions the TS got through while nobody noticed them? To see them as incomtetent is simply wrong (or please show me the place in canon were it is stated "The TS was build out of incompetent sadists").
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Tal_Shiar
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Tal_Shiar
markhawkman: But do you believe Hakeev have had any member of the TS sorted out? The origanization is HUGE and given to her character as secret service it had many cells and branches. Hakeev is not the master of (TS) universe. They must controll a huge fleet and several planets etc. That mean they have a lot of staff, even of higher rank. To believe they are all little Hakeev-clones seems hard to believe.
feiqa
Yes, that would be a good idea. Someone like Janek and/or another high ranking member of the Imperial Remnants would be a rally-point inside the Republic and a possible bride towards other parts of the Romulan society (it would made sense from a internal perspective). But I am afraid such a thing would not happen...
I said an internal affairs division. A group handling justice within the ranks of the military and the police forces to weed out those that abuse their power. I hate to use the phrase, however, From a certain point of view all internal affairs groups are paramilitary political compliance enforcement agencies. Even those in democratic governments. It is just enforcing the will and ideals of that democracy.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Oh, give me a break, you know damn well what I meant. There is a huge difference between arresting somebody for committing murder or selling secrets and spiriting somebody away and executing them after a show trial for disagreeing with the head of state. And that "from a certain point of view" line was stupid back when Obi-wan said it.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I know that in the instance I stated you twisted it to an impossibility. And I said I hated to use the phrase. But, NCIS is a paramilitary political enforcement group. It polices the navy and marines. Police internal affairs divisions police the police. My statement was if we brought the right people from the tal Shiar, Janek as an example, the group could be remade into something useful and good out of the sewage that Hakeev dragged it through. Not policing citizens, but the military and police of the Romulans.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
The TS (and the organizations who come before) were over centuries part of a grown society and political system, which has developed in a very different way than the human, the Vulcan or some others. It is only logical that it is hard from a human point of view to see it as in-play many romulans do. The point of view of the series is anything but romulan, it is human centred - and by this not those of the majority of the Romulans.
Who knows if not many Romulan people have at least some acceptance towards the TS - "They may do rude things, sometimes abuse their power, but they protect us against internal conflict and external infiltration." And looking back at the past of the Romulans (an growing Empire at war with different factions, and with the potential of uprisings of both the Remans and other minor, conquered species - which domination by the Romulans the majority of the romulan population surely see as justified) this point of view is from that perspective correct. Even INSIDE dictatorships it is naive to think that the majority of the people did want nothing more than to overthrow the rule of the king/ religious leader/ ruling party. In many cases the opposite is the fact - and even more if it comes to contact with foreign forces and also internal uprising, even more from a group which is seen as "inferior" like the Remans. And the Romulan state has a tradition which is even much older than many human political systems (at least older than the Federation, while I do not know how old exactly), so its values is way of living is deeply in the mind of most Romulans - nothing strange, alies which is brought upon them from outside.
It's obvious that they stepped far over the already generous line in STO, but I suppose it could always be re-instituted, with the traitors removed and more checks put on the Tal Shiar's power. It would probably give the Republic more legitimacy in the eyes of the traditionalists.
An episode where the Tal Shiar General from the New Romulus missions surrenders or (openly) goes into negotiations with D'Tan would go a long way towards reuniting the Empire, I think.
What you write would also mean that the official STO picture of the TS AND the Republic had to become both a little bit more grey (different kind of grey, but grey in both cases) than clear "white" and "black" - and I am afraid that will not happen. But hope dies last, a lecture the Romulans we play had learned the hard way...:D
Probably why it got cut. They want to change the previous lore and move the story a different way.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Yes, moving the story to a conflict between Sela and Donatra (they're both coming back around eventually).
Tal'Shiar/Reman Resistance/Romulan Nemesis uniform, pls.
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7403/13262502435_5604548f2c_o.png
MAJOR DR SPOILER ALERT BELOW; HIGHLIGHT AND READ AT OWN RISK
one of the republic intelligence offcers you work with in the delta rising episode arc is a former tal shiar deep cover agent; not your tal shiar general, but still noteworthy
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