feiqa: But you surely agree that a huge part of the former Empire which was not destroyed is still not part of the RR?
And I guess a lot of Romulans are sceptic about this help (distrust towards the Klingons and Federation has a long tradition and a lot of argument), and highly disagree about his position towards Vulcan as (even more?) towards the Remans. And quiet a number even in the RR might thought it would be much more wise to rally the possible Romulan forces than rely on foreigners who had a lot of Romulan blood on their hands. With the Imperial Remnants and TS the RR (who would than not the Republic of today) would much be less dependent on foreign aid. D'Tans policy - some could argue - only fuel the ongoing war between the survivors of the supernova, costing more and more children of the Raptor their lives while their number IS already reduced a lot. Things which could only serve the enemies of the Romulan people (and many Romulans surely still see at least parts of the Federation and the Klingon Empire in that way). Is it really wise to invest in a new society and state while there are a lot of ressources which should used to rebuild the old?
You might be right with your analogy Palpy-D'Tan, but I do not believe so. Palpatine was perfect in winning support from ALL sides inside the Republic. D'Tan follows a much more "idealistic" way, openly argumenting for his agenda which must him alienate from many people both inside and outside of the RR, who still cling to old tradition and the traditional thinking about how a Romulan State should be build (in question of foreign policy etc.), and which policy it should follow. For now D'Tan follows at foremost the policy of the unification/republican movement, who was never more than a small minority, seen by many as more or less traitors, influenced by foreign ideas. I do not believe that Palpatine would made such a decission...
So I argue for removing him - in any way necessary - and replacing him by a much more inclusive leadership may look apealing for Romulans both inside the RR and outside.
asardetemplari: Sure. But we could dream, can't we...
feiqa: But you surely agree that a huge part of the former Empire which was not destroyed is still not part of the RR?
And I guess a lot of Romulans are sceptic about this help (distrust towards the Klingons and Federation has a long tradition and a lot of argument), and highly disagree about his position towards Vulcan as (even more?) towards the Remans. And quiet a number even in the RR might thought it would be much more wise to rally the possible Romulan forces than rely on foreigners who had a lot of Romulan blood on their hands. With the Imperial Remnants and TS the RR (who would than not the Republic of today) would much be less dependent on foreign aid. D'Tans policy - some could argue - only fuel the ongoing war between the survivors of the supernova, costing more and more children of the Raptor their lives while their number IS already reduced a lot. Things which could only serve the enemies of the Romulan people (and many Romulans surely still see at least parts of the Federation and the Klingon Empire in that way). Is it really wise to invest in a new society and state while there are a lot of ressources which should used to rebuild the old?
You might be right with your analogy Palpy-D'Tan, but I do not believe so. Palpatine was perfect in winning support from ALL sides inside the Republic. D'Tan follows a much more "idealistic" way, openly argumenting for his agenda which must him alienate from many people both inside and outside of the RR, who still cling to old tradition and the traditional thinking about how a Romulan State should be build (in question of foreign policy etc.), and which policy it should follow. For now D'Tan follows at foremost the policy of the unification/republican movement, who was never more than a small minority, seen by many as more or less traitors, influenced by foreign ideas. I do not believe that Palpatine would made such a decission...
So I argue for removing him - in any way necessary - and replacing him by a much more inclusive leadership may look apealing for Romulans both inside the RR and outside.
asardetemplari: Sure. But we could dream, can't we...
First part absolutely and I think they should reunify with the RR. Borrowing a bit of human history. How many times did the Romans go from republic to empire and back again? The influence of the traditionalists could swing republic attitudes the other way. They just need to no sound like the TS.
And elements no I do not agree with reunification with the Vulcans. There are too many instances where their 'logic' has put them at odds with the RSE and is used as a mask for their own self-righteousness that joining with them enmasse makes me ill. If a few of them wish to join us, I might consider it.
As for removing D'tan and the conflicts with the TS sympathizers. First the TS was supposed to be a security force working for the rulers. Now it wishes to rule. It needs to be seen as the dangerous terrorist rebels they accuse everyone else of being and get excised that a new organization to serve the republic or the empire can be formed. However as the recovered recording from the TS mountain camp showed. At least one of their commanders is thinking with some clarity. (Sad he had to be destroyed.) D'tan can't be over thrown nor slain or you turn him into a martyr and lose more to his beliefs than we do to him alive. No to remove him he has to be shown as wrong. His deals as criminal. And the priests to abandon him. He must be shown to the people as a fraud, a failure, an opportunist, and a false prophet. Then given an unassuming but quick execution. This will turn the people from his beliefs and keep them under the raptor's wings.
Looking back I find it so sad that the humans did not heed Machiavelli when he went to tutor them. He was one of the best teachers we had.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Honestly I do not know how often the Romulan stat was a Republic or a Empire (by the way I think it could be both at the same time - there are examples on earth, too). In most aspects I agree with you, it sound logic (by the way - removing D'Tan must not be done by force, there are other ways, like those you mentioned). And as you add, not all TS seem to be so power-hungry that there could not be an agreement. It seems to be in STO an HUGE organization which includes great parts of the armed forces of the Empire. If even on the spearhead of the TS with which the Republican Chars clash several members are who may be open for negotiation under better circumstances, than surely there are a lot of others in other parts of the Romulan influenced space (yes, I know, in TOS all or at least most TS-members seem to be insane villains, but is hard to believe that such a organization could be exist and work).
i didn't feel up to reading all 10 pages of this thread quite yet so please forgive me if i'm repeating something between pages 5 and 9....
i would like a complete romulan/reman faction. the romulan empire was a real power house in the star trek universe and i think it would be wrong to treat them as secondary citizens for much longer. i think that the allegiances helped get them back on the board but with the new alliances and the spheres and the new homeworld etc we should have our resources and stand up for our own interests more.
in the interest of maintaining the storyline that already exists maybe we should keep the set up that forces players to choose a side but change it to a temporary situation. choose sides when the republic is young but then at a certain level or something we can pull back and gain a fuller romulan faction status (maybe as part of the level cap increase). the change can feature some new episodes of conflict with the TS or the Elachi or rescue/recovery of other outlying colonies that never joined on.
i do see how the fleet structure and memberships could get in the way though... if your part of another faction for a while then you're prob part of a fleet that is integrated with that faction. maybe we could have a "fleet contractor" position set up for romulan players in those fleets. it would repect the old alliances while asserting independance at the same time. a formerly aligned romulan with starfleet or the kdf in a fleet could still have access to fleet resources and supplies (though maybe at a slightly higher price or with some kind of limitation) while at the same time offering their former allies access to purchase some specifically romulan gear through the fleet base (for example fleet rom plasma, only available to fleets who have romulans as "members").
it's really late so if i'm not making much sense please forgive me lol...
romulans could easily get embassies on qonos and earth too, similar set up i would imagine but with enough differences to make them interesting...
at a certain level or something we can pull back and gain a fuller romulan faction status (maybe as part of the level cap increase). the change can feature some new episodes of conflict with the TS or the Elachi or rescue/recovery of other outlying colonies that never joined on.
romulans could easily get embassies on qonos and earth too, similar set up i would imagine but with enough differences to make them interesting...
If the Romulans were to be free from current influences, they would more of an established government than just D'Tan as a Proconsol... regardless of anyone's opinions of D'Tan he couldn't run such a society on his own. I don't recall seeing anything that indicates a New Romulan Senate. I could just not remember though. If Cryptic gave the Romulans a new Senate that actively includes Remans we could also have election leading to a new Praetor.
Even with New Romulus' commitment to transparency and honesty, we don't have to abandon our skills. Romulans through all the series were masters of information. Not only were they great spies but they were also virtually impossible to spy on. We've lost that under the current circumstances and I think we need it back. We don't need a new Tal Shiar but we need something. It's difficult to prove your independence when you have Hirogen, Tal Shiar and Tholians operating with relative ease on your homeworld right under your noses while being virtually powerless to prevent it. If that happened on Earth, Starfleet would be fired and Section 31 put in charge. If it happened on Q'onos, the entire leadership of the KDF would be killed and their houses dishonored. On New Romulus? No one really bats an eye....
Separate thought, Starfleet has a large Outreach program in its gameplay. I think Romulans should make their own. It broke my heart watching and reading the stories of the Romulan survivors on Hfihar (the moon with the TS base in the mine). We sould start carving out our independance by reaching out with specialized missions that directly target specific colonies like Hfihar. I'd love a chance to actually help out there. Honestly, I think a whole minor expansion could be written for that moon. A series of missions to drive out that Ferengi, or to help build homes (Development skill perhaps), helping with crops, killing Warriguls, defending the mines from Pirates, finding lost loved ones, etc.
It would give the feel of building a New Romulan society whereas most of what we have now serves to make Romulus look like it needs outside help and is integral to the whole Iconian story line. Hfihar could be purely Romulan without any grandeose extragalactic supervillan plans, just Romulans building a home out of ashes. I don't know about anyone else, but I think that would be fun.
Well, I had thought similar about the idea if it would not be goodif there would be a Assignment like "Sanctuary on New Romulos" or so. You could sometimes recruit Romulan refugees during civilian enlistment, but You could only give them a new home far abroad.
And of course it would be nice if your ideas would be indeed implemented - not around that play xou mentioned but also for making contact with worlds under the inlfuence of the Imperial Remnants and the TS - perhaps some chains which result in rare ore very rare Romulan/ Reman doffs etc. In that cases the missions could vary - some times it would be necessary to overthrow the present leadership (I guess some people try to build their very personal Empire, warlord-like, and are not open for negotiation), but in others it should be possible to made a deal (of course the Republic must be also willing to offer something, to change their society towards a much more pro-tradition way, open itself up towards members of the Imperial Remnants and the TS). There might be also the possibility for political missions on New Romulos - convince hard-core enemies of any negotiation (which in many cases could be found under D'Tans supporters, I guess - those how want to create a "new society" but hate the old one) by any methods necessary...
If the Romulans were to be free from current influences, they would more of an established government than just D'Tan as a Proconsol... regardless of anyone's opinions of D'Tan he couldn't run such a society on his own. I don't recall seeing anything that indicates a New Romulan Senate. I could just not remember though. If Cryptic gave the Romulans a new Senate that actively includes Remans we could also have election leading to a new Praetor.
The senate is mentioned a few times in game... and yet no one ever remembers it :P Weather they have Remans isn't mentioned but the Senate is. And I agree itd be nice to get a 20s cutscene showing elections for the new proconsul or even just a few senate seats, just so its very obviously shown, this is not a D'Tan only govt.
Gotta agree with the last couple of posts wholeheartedly. The more unique Romulan content we can get, the better.
I'd love to see some recruiting-for-the-Republic missions, even if they're simple dailies for development CXP or Romulan Marks. And some eventual build-up of New Romulus would be amazing. I love the adventure zone in and around the staging area, but having a full-fledged capital city with a visible Republic Senate would be incredible.
I'd also like to see a couple of briefly mentioned arcs be closed up. A good example is the colony on Talvath that applied for Federation protection - maybe it appeals to the Republic now?
What about other colonies we see around Romulan space, and are listed as being independent or outside the RSE's influence in some way? Worlds such as Eirhess, Rhi, Vendor, and Rashana? Does D'Tan, and by extension our commanders, reach out to them?
What about the Romulan version of Risa, Brea? Does the Republic want to revive it, both as a source of income and a spot for weary Republicans to relax?
What does the Republic decide to do about the RSE's site of government in the Rator system?
Does D'Tan try to sway the RSE's other worlds to the Republic's cause? Like Cirini Prime and Alth'ndor?
Does the joint Vulcan-Romulan population on Khaiell decide the D'Tan's roots in the unification movement suggest opening talks with the Republic?
All questions I'd love to see answered. And taking these stories into their conclusion will all help make the Republic much more independent.
Ok if you do get independence heres the problem you may face, there is a chance they will only make on big update and then thats it.....you will face the same problems the kdf will have!
Kdf numbers will decline greatly to the independence and even romulans may get hurt by this, most players are casual and they do not want to pick a side thats harder or has less stuff so they will stick to the feds now if they lose that with there fed aligned romulan/reman...then they may go back to federation.
this could impact on the romulan faction something that it does not need right now!
If cryptic cannot even balance two factions how can they balance a third?
Well, yeah, some of those missions are part of the overall STO storyline - especially the FE's. Even the Romulans would be affected by a few of those... and btw, it's after the halfway mark, not directly after choosing a side.
Besides, the attachment literally does not matter storywise; D'Tan specifically states that no matter where we go, what we choose, we are Romulans. Plus, the Romulan people + empire aren't what they used to be, no two ways about it, and they need support. That's good enough for me imo
Would I be against a full Romulan-only experience? No; I simply see nothing wrong with the current arrangement, because it makes sense on a number of levels (especially as a starting point)
i do not think it makes sense at all prior to lvl 50 kdf and ufp are still at war. that would actually be a conflict of interest with the romulans with Dtan stating they are romulans 1st. which would mean if following orders of their chosen faction could put them up against fellow romulans from the other side. now if they are romulans 1st this would could represent a major problem for battle field commanders. say you send this rommy out to do this or that and comes up to another rommy warbird flying wingman for a klingon. you fire your destabilized plasma at the klingon and take out your fellow rommy that cloaked next to him.
ok so you put transponders on all rommy ships that only transmit to other rommy ships same scenario. this time the Klingo nship is coming at you but you know the rommy is there cloaked. now what do you do? let them pass? contact the other rommy and risk exposing yourself, allowing the Klingon to fire 1st and possibly take you out when you cant return fire?
say rommie wingman breaks away from his Klingon partner this will alert the klingon something is up and fortify the klingon distrust in romulans, abandoning their post or not being a true member of the faction.
nah none of it makes sense to me. it was just the lazy way to give people rommies that htye had been begging for. and like so many things they only go half way do giving customers what they actually want.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
i do not think it makes sense at all prior to lvl 50 kdf and ufp are still at war. that would actually be a conflict of interest with the romulans with Dtan stating they are romulans 1st. which would mean if following orders of their chosen faction could put them up against fellow romulans from the other side. now if they are romulans 1st this would could represent a major problem for battle field commanders. say you send this rommy out to do this or that and comes up to another rommy warbird flying wingman for a klingon. you fire your destabilized plasma at the klingon and take out your fellow rommy that cloaked next to him.
ok so you put transponders on all rommy ships that only transmit to other rommy ships same scenario. this time the Klingo nship is coming at you but you know the rommy is there cloaked. now what do you do? let them pass? contact the other rommy and risk exposing yourself, allowing the Klingon to fire 1st and possibly take you out when you cant return fire?
say rommie wingman breaks away from his Klingon partner this will alert the klingon something is up and fortify the klingon distrust in romulans, abandoning their post or not being a true member of the faction.
nah none of it makes sense to me. it was just the lazy way to give people rommies that htye had been begging for. and like so many things they only go half way do giving customers what they actually want.
I have to ask. Why does every argument about the divided path of romulans always come to a fleet action where fed-roms and kdf-roms have to shoot at each other?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
I could imagine different reasons. First it is something which occours for a lot of players, it is more or less obvious (not only Romulans shooting at Romulans, but Republican Romulans shooting at Republican Romulans). It shows a GREAT gap in what would be logical (or even at least somehow sane) since the Republic could of course not waste their men and women in that way.
Second I think not all players want to "waste" time and energy to think about the other aspects of this divide which are strange (the polictical consequences etc., the questions of ressources, logn term effects etc.) - that is more or less something for "hard core Romulans"
Of course you could answer, well, than Rom-players should avoid any fleet actions so that there is no danger of shooting at each other (as I do, and not as only one, I guess). But others would see that as a limitation, so the fact is hammered right in their face...
I have to ask. Why does every argument about the divided path of romulans always come to a fleet action where fed-roms and kdf-roms have to shoot at each other?
well mostly because it is a 100% valid argument that has not been explained as of yet. maybe when it is debunked we can give another reason why. but for now why beat on a dead horse by giving multiple reasons when ONE is all you need to validate your argument.
and im not a hard core Romulan i don't even like the Romulans i play as Klingon.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
well mostly because it is a 100% valid argument that has not been explained as of yet. maybe when it is debunked we can give another reason why. but for now why beat on a dead horse by giving multiple reasons when ONE is all you need to validate your argument.
and im not a hard core Romulan i don't even like the Romulans i play as Klingon.
I could have sworn that this topic had already been asked and answered numerous times and it is the same as asking for removal of the favorite Romulan boff.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
It seems to me that only on infrequent occasions are you, as a Republic captain, ever on the front lines of the Federation-Empire war. And when you come up to another Republic commander, we see exactly what happens at the return to Virinat - tempers may flare at first, but you and the opposing commander come to a conclusion and end up helping each other, regardless of allegiance.
That said, I'm sure that the Republic's arrangement with the Federation and Empire has to be something along the lines of "hey, we're completely willing to help you, but at the same time... can we limit our exposure to the front lines of your war?" The Empire knows Republicans are in the Federation, and the Federation knows Republicans are in the Empire. And as we see, they both accept the Republic willingly, for their own reasons.
The Republic was a source of neutral ground for both the Federation and the Empire - and that ended up leading to cooperation in the Solanae Sphere, in the various conflicts with other races, and now the 'Delta Alliance.' Prior to these recent seasons, maybe having individual Republic commanders choose sides was a little... dangerous. But now that we're seeing the Republic's strength as a force in-between the Empire and the Federation, maybe having us Republic commanders in the other factions was a good thing? D'Tan had said that we needed to seek friends wherever we could - I think we accomplished that fairly well. And in fairness, the seasons that saw the breakdown of open hostilities between the Federation and the Empire came very shortly after LoR. So our influence was clearly felt very, very quickly.
chipg7: Well, tell that my doff, who quiet regular raid starfleet-installations, support ground assaults, strike freighters of nations of the Federation, fight in the secret war against the Federation...:D
Even during repeatable missions you might crash with the federation (raid their starbase in Tau Dewa etc.). So i would disagree that it don't put you in front of that war - but you are right, you do not crash with Fed-Roms so often.
And of course I disagree with that idea making friends with two nations who are at that time in war with each other. At least that should own D'Tan indeed a crown - a fool's one!:D
If cryptic would at least somehow action logically, than perhaps the softies of the Fed might accept the Romulan attitude. The Empire? No chance. Klingons have not much sympathy left for people who avoid battles...
By the way in general I am a bit pissed off this all "let us rally against the greater foe, lalala we all are nice, peace and flowers for everyone". It would be better if the conflict between Empire, Federation and even Romulans stay, not vanish. It is too simple if you enemies are EVER only the BAD, BAD, people - not people where you know you could easily been on the other side. War is not very often good vs. bad, black against white, but I see this truth pass away.
And I think it WAS a stupid idea from D'Tan playing nice with Klingons AND Federation while he still was not able to change his non-romulan society so that he could reach out to other children of the raptor in TS and Imperial Remnants. It should be more important for Romulans to save what is left of their people (even if that mean compromises), not playing peace-mediator for the galaxy. A conflict between the remaining great powers would perhaps even in their interest since it gave them opportunities to enlarge their own influence while the greater powers are busy.
Strange, if those who claim to fight for freedom and the romulan people has only one wish (or at least value this one above others) - to kill other Romulans...;)
Strange, if those who claim to fight for freedom and the romulan people has only one wish (or at least value this one above others) - to kill other Romulans...;)
You are not seeking justice on the sto forums, don't you.
__________________
[Combat (Self)] You lose 6549 (7572) Cold from the torment of the underworld.
taut0u: Who speaks about justice? A little bit more patience and wisdom would be enough...:D
markhawkman: Well, than it would be justified for Romulans to cry "Death to the Klingons, the Remans and the Federation, too!" (and of course "Death to Romulan Republic!") - all of them have Romulan blood on their hands, and not only a little bit.
What did the TS do so horrible? Some very few persons within the TS and the Empire were involved in the Hobus-supernova (surely a catastrophe beyond any imagination), but most of the few or even all were not in that way involved that they know what would be the result. They were on many cases manipulated. And of course a huge majority of TS (99,9 percent or even much more) had nothing to to with the thing. To hell, D'Tan and his men nearly crashed in a similar way when they played with the gateway - were they punished for that? It want not so bad, but only because of luck, not of wisdom.
If it comes to oppression...well the TS had another Empire in mind than D'Tans little playground (which has nothing to do with a real Romulan society, it is more a dream of Vulcan-loving nearly-Fed-like pseudo-Romulans - or so at least a lot of traditional thinking Romulans will say, quiet the majority of the children of the Raptor) and they use hard tactics to defend that in times of rebellion or war. Not enough for a death penalty for ALL of them, many Romulans both in and outside the Republic will think. D'Tans hardcore supporters seem not be satisfied before not the last Romulan who dreams and fight for another society than they wish is killed or at least forced to surrender. Well, what a wonderful new world...;)
I dont really understand where all the DTan-bashing comes from, both here and elsewhere in the forums.
There are a handful of great episodes in TNG where we get a closer look into Romulan society. And Id venture to say, from that inside perspective, the average Romulan is probably a lot more peaceful and normal by our standards.
Unification: Data and Picard go down to Romulus to find Spock. People are shown to fear the Tal Shair, and fear open comments against the government. The woman serving at the restaurant is definitely not happy, and we dont see many happy citizens either. The RSE and the Tal Shiar are not appreciated by the average citizen, and its stated as much in the episode.
The Chase: the Cardassians and Klingons want nothing to do with any of the races that beamed down and witnessed the holographic projection that was locked in everyones genetic code. The Romulan commander, however, made a point to cautiously step out of line and contact Picard, saying only Maybe one day... This isnt the first time we see a military commander express guarded openness to the Federation and it isnt the last.
Face of the Enemy: while Troi is posing as a Tal Shiar officer, we see many, many instances where its clear that the Tal Shiar isnt even liked by the military. And Troi is able to take command of the ship, simply by using vague threats that seem to hit home with everyone. The Romulan commander is outright disrespectful to Troi, and goes to great lengths to vocalize just how little appreciation she has for the RSEs protectors.
A couple general points as well. Most of the time we see Romulans, yes they are at odds with Starfleet. But I think its fairly clear that a lot of those commanders are either working for the Tal Shiar, are under Tal Shair orders, or are engaged actively in an anti-Federation operation. And there are plenty of examples where Romulans are very vocal against the oppressionist government, like the defections of Jarok and Mret, the anti-Tal Shiar teachings of Konsab, and the mere fact that the Unification Movement exists as a substantive entity.
Yes, its fair to say that the Republic should not be a simple clone of the Federation. But I dont believe DTan is working for that anyways. Its not like DTan was willing to back down during the Solanae conferences, and Cmdr. Jarok was more than willing to go toe-to-toe with Starfleet and the KDF.
In all, I dont think its too much of a problem that Romulans and Remans are looking to live in a little more of a peaceful environment, given the last couple decades since Shinzon.
I dont really understand where all the DTan-bashing comes from, both here and elsewhere in the forums.
There are a handful of great episodes in TNG where we get a closer look into Romulan society. And Id venture to say, from that inside perspective, the average Romulan is probably a lot more peaceful and normal by our standards.
Unification: Data and Picard go down to Romulus to find Spock. People are shown to fear the Tal Shair, and fear open comments against the government. The woman serving at the restaurant is definitely not happy, and we dont see many happy citizens either. The RSE and the Tal Shiar are not appreciated by the average citizen, and its stated as much in the episode.
The Chase: the Cardassians and Klingons want nothing to do with any of the races that beamed down and witnessed the holographic projection that was locked in everyones genetic code. The Romulan commander, however, made a point to cautiously step out of line and contact Picard, saying only Maybe one day... This isnt the first time we see a military commander express guarded openness to the Federation and it isnt the last.
Face of the Enemy: while Troi is posing as a Tal Shiar officer, we see many, many instances where its clear that the Tal Shiar isnt even liked by the military. And Troi is able to take command of the ship, simply by using vague threats that seem to hit home with everyone. The Romulan commander is outright disrespectful to Troi, and goes to great lengths to vocalize just how little appreciation she has for the RSEs protectors.
A couple general points as well. Most of the time we see Romulans, yes they are at odds with Starfleet. But I think its fairly clear that a lot of those commanders are either working for the Tal Shiar, are under Tal Shair orders, or are engaged actively in an anti-Federation operation. And there are plenty of examples where Romulans are very vocal against the oppressionist government, like the defections of Jarok and Mret, the anti-Tal Shiar teachings of Konsab, and the mere fact that the Unification Movement exists as a substantive entity.
Yes, its fair to say that the Republic should not be a simple clone of the Federation. But I dont believe DTan is working for that anyways. Its not like DTan was willing to back down during the Solanae conferences, and Cmdr. Jarok was more than willing to go toe-to-toe with Starfleet and the KDF.
In all, I dont think its too much of a problem that Romulans and Remans are looking to live in a little more of a peaceful environment, given the last couple decades since Shinzon.
Back in reunification the underground needed to get Picard and Data off the streets in a manner no one would question. So they sent men armed with rifles to arrest them in broad daylight as the tal shiar. Says a lot about how the old government worked.
The D'tan hate comes from him being the boy studying under Spock in reunification. He tosses out Spock's name as the answer to justify his choices. D'tan hate is also much like the hatred of Tovan Khev and how LoR came about. Instead of a full faction. (Which seemed a huge gamble that could have sunk the game.) Cryptic hedged their bet and made up a story line for a half faction. So they could cut cost and thus risk less. Tovan was an answer to the comments about not having great NPC's like certain other games. But to do what that game did they would have needed to write stories for a half dozen characters you would be stuck with and see which one you kept by your side and which ones just hung out on your ship. Again it seems they got so far on writing him in that they needed to cut losses and the other 'face' npcs got cut out. But him you were stuck with.
D'tan is the make a storyline we could be blurred between the two factions. This felt wrong because Star Fleet pretty much feels like the Federation. The KDF (especially after LoR) feels like the Klingon Empire. Feds are noble explorers that can fight back. Klingons are proud and boastful warriors. The Romulans we got. . . Where is the ingrained code of conduct and duty shown in Balance of Terror? Where is the steel hand in a silk glove as seen in the Enterprise Incident? Where is the chess match of wits that Picard described The Defector?
We did not get them. We got farmers blown off their world, scooped up by a ragtag fleet of defectors that are lead by a man that dreams of walking in rapture on Vulcan. So no one got what they expected based on previous success with the other two factions. And it gets summed up with D'tan. Since he is the in game architect of the new way for Romulans, he is why no one got what they were salivating for.
Now personally, I think he may be more shrewed than people give him credit for. We shall see.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
I dont really understand where all the DTan-bashing comes from, both here and elsewhere in the forums.
Simple... prior to the last FE we had, D'Tan came off as either naive, or incompetent(pushing the iconian gateway activation like Kererek). On top of those traits he comes off willing to suck off anyone and everyone that might give him some cookies. These are not the traits of a good Romulan. Now I admit it WAS a bit refreshing seeing him act more like a normal Romulan in the last FE, hopefully that will continue since we're forced to keep him.
D'tan hate is also much like the hatred of Tovan Khev and how LoR came about. Instead of a full faction. (Which seemed a huge gamble that could have sunk the game.) Cryptic hedged their bet and made up a story line for a half faction. So they could cut cost and thus risk less. Tovan was an answer to the comments about not having great NPC's like certain other games. But to do what that game did they would have needed to write stories for a half dozen characters you would be stuck with and see which one you kept by your side and which ones just hung out on your ship. Again it seems they got so far on writing him in that they needed to cut losses and the other 'face' npcs got cut out. But him you were stuck with.
D'tan is the make a storyline we could be blurred between the two factions. This felt wrong because Star Fleet pretty much feels like the Federation. The KDF (especially after LoR) feels like the Klingon Empire. Feds are noble explorers that can fight back. Klingons are proud and boastful warriors. The Romulans we got. . . Where is the ingrained code of conduct and duty shown in Balance of Terror? Where is the steel hand in a silk glove as seen in the Enterprise Incident? Where is the chess match of wits that Picard described The Defector?
We did not get them. We got farmers blown off their world, scooped up by a ragtag fleet of defectors that are lead by a man that dreams of walking in rapture on Vulcan. So no one got what they expected based on previous success with the other two factions. And it gets summed up with D'tan. Since he is the in game architect of the new way for Romulans, he is why no one got what they were salivating for.
While I could niggle at the argument that the federation 'feels' like the federation I agree much with this
taut0u: Who speaks about justice? A little bit more patience and wisdom would be enough...:D
markhawkman: Well, than it would be justified for Romulans to cry "Death to the Klingons, the Remans and the Federation, too!" (and of course "Death to Romulan Republic!") - all of them have Romulan blood on their hands, and not only a little bit.
What did the TS do so horrible? Some very few persons within the TS and the Empire were involved in the Hobus-supernova (surely a catastrophe beyond any imagination), but most of the few or even all were not in that way involved that they know what would be the result. They were on many cases manipulated. And of course a huge majority of TS (99,9 percent or even much more) had nothing to to with the thing. To hell, D'Tan and his men nearly crashed in a similar way when they played with the gateway - were they punished for that? It want not so bad, but only because of luck, not of wisdom.
If it comes to oppression...well the TS had another Empire in mind than D'Tans little playground (which has nothing to do with a real Romulan society, it is more a dream of Vulcan-loving nearly-Fed-like pseudo-Romulans - or so at least a lot of traditional thinking Romulans will say, quiet the majority of the children of the Raptor) and they use hard tactics to defend that in times of rebellion or war. Not enough for a death penalty for ALL of them, many Romulans both in and outside the Republic will think. D'Tans hardcore supporters seem not be satisfied before not the last Romulan who dreams and fight for another society than they wish is killed or at least forced to surrender. Well, what a wonderful new world...;)
You misunderstand. I'm not calling for the execution of every member of the organization but for the end of the organization itself. The organization is obviously so corrupt that it's leaders care for nothing beyond their own ambition. That's kind of how we got to the Hobus scenario...
And, as chip pointed out, this isn't a new development. Remember the Battle of the Omarion Nebula? Whose stupid idea was that?
Comments
And I guess a lot of Romulans are sceptic about this help (distrust towards the Klingons and Federation has a long tradition and a lot of argument), and highly disagree about his position towards Vulcan as (even more?) towards the Remans. And quiet a number even in the RR might thought it would be much more wise to rally the possible Romulan forces than rely on foreigners who had a lot of Romulan blood on their hands. With the Imperial Remnants and TS the RR (who would than not the Republic of today) would much be less dependent on foreign aid. D'Tans policy - some could argue - only fuel the ongoing war between the survivors of the supernova, costing more and more children of the Raptor their lives while their number IS already reduced a lot. Things which could only serve the enemies of the Romulan people (and many Romulans surely still see at least parts of the Federation and the Klingon Empire in that way). Is it really wise to invest in a new society and state while there are a lot of ressources which should used to rebuild the old?
You might be right with your analogy Palpy-D'Tan, but I do not believe so. Palpatine was perfect in winning support from ALL sides inside the Republic. D'Tan follows a much more "idealistic" way, openly argumenting for his agenda which must him alienate from many people both inside and outside of the RR, who still cling to old tradition and the traditional thinking about how a Romulan State should be build (in question of foreign policy etc.), and which policy it should follow. For now D'Tan follows at foremost the policy of the unification/republican movement, who was never more than a small minority, seen by many as more or less traitors, influenced by foreign ideas. I do not believe that Palpatine would made such a decission...
So I argue for removing him - in any way necessary - and replacing him by a much more inclusive leadership may look apealing for Romulans both inside the RR and outside.
asardetemplari: Sure. But we could dream, can't we...
First part absolutely and I think they should reunify with the RR. Borrowing a bit of human history. How many times did the Romans go from republic to empire and back again? The influence of the traditionalists could swing republic attitudes the other way. They just need to no sound like the TS.
And elements no I do not agree with reunification with the Vulcans. There are too many instances where their 'logic' has put them at odds with the RSE and is used as a mask for their own self-righteousness that joining with them enmasse makes me ill. If a few of them wish to join us, I might consider it.
As for removing D'tan and the conflicts with the TS sympathizers. First the TS was supposed to be a security force working for the rulers. Now it wishes to rule. It needs to be seen as the dangerous terrorist rebels they accuse everyone else of being and get excised that a new organization to serve the republic or the empire can be formed. However as the recovered recording from the TS mountain camp showed. At least one of their commanders is thinking with some clarity. (Sad he had to be destroyed.) D'tan can't be over thrown nor slain or you turn him into a martyr and lose more to his beliefs than we do to him alive. No to remove him he has to be shown as wrong. His deals as criminal. And the priests to abandon him. He must be shown to the people as a fraud, a failure, an opportunist, and a false prophet. Then given an unassuming but quick execution. This will turn the people from his beliefs and keep them under the raptor's wings.
Looking back I find it so sad that the humans did not heed Machiavelli when he went to tutor them. He was one of the best teachers we had.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
i would like a complete romulan/reman faction. the romulan empire was a real power house in the star trek universe and i think it would be wrong to treat them as secondary citizens for much longer. i think that the allegiances helped get them back on the board but with the new alliances and the spheres and the new homeworld etc we should have our resources and stand up for our own interests more.
in the interest of maintaining the storyline that already exists maybe we should keep the set up that forces players to choose a side but change it to a temporary situation. choose sides when the republic is young but then at a certain level or something we can pull back and gain a fuller romulan faction status (maybe as part of the level cap increase). the change can feature some new episodes of conflict with the TS or the Elachi or rescue/recovery of other outlying colonies that never joined on.
i do see how the fleet structure and memberships could get in the way though... if your part of another faction for a while then you're prob part of a fleet that is integrated with that faction. maybe we could have a "fleet contractor" position set up for romulan players in those fleets. it would repect the old alliances while asserting independance at the same time. a formerly aligned romulan with starfleet or the kdf in a fleet could still have access to fleet resources and supplies (though maybe at a slightly higher price or with some kind of limitation) while at the same time offering their former allies access to purchase some specifically romulan gear through the fleet base (for example fleet rom plasma, only available to fleets who have romulans as "members").
it's really late so if i'm not making much sense please forgive me lol...
romulans could easily get embassies on qonos and earth too, similar set up i would imagine but with enough differences to make them interesting...
these are GREAT ideas
Even with New Romulus' commitment to transparency and honesty, we don't have to abandon our skills. Romulans through all the series were masters of information. Not only were they great spies but they were also virtually impossible to spy on. We've lost that under the current circumstances and I think we need it back. We don't need a new Tal Shiar but we need something. It's difficult to prove your independence when you have Hirogen, Tal Shiar and Tholians operating with relative ease on your homeworld right under your noses while being virtually powerless to prevent it. If that happened on Earth, Starfleet would be fired and Section 31 put in charge. If it happened on Q'onos, the entire leadership of the KDF would be killed and their houses dishonored. On New Romulus? No one really bats an eye....
Separate thought, Starfleet has a large Outreach program in its gameplay. I think Romulans should make their own. It broke my heart watching and reading the stories of the Romulan survivors on Hfihar (the moon with the TS base in the mine). We sould start carving out our independance by reaching out with specialized missions that directly target specific colonies like Hfihar. I'd love a chance to actually help out there. Honestly, I think a whole minor expansion could be written for that moon. A series of missions to drive out that Ferengi, or to help build homes (Development skill perhaps), helping with crops, killing Warriguls, defending the mines from Pirates, finding lost loved ones, etc.
It would give the feel of building a New Romulan society whereas most of what we have now serves to make Romulus look like it needs outside help and is integral to the whole Iconian story line. Hfihar could be purely Romulan without any grandeose extragalactic supervillan plans, just Romulans building a home out of ashes. I don't know about anyone else, but I think that would be fun.
thanks kodachikuno
And of course it would be nice if your ideas would be indeed implemented - not around that play xou mentioned but also for making contact with worlds under the inlfuence of the Imperial Remnants and the TS - perhaps some chains which result in rare ore very rare Romulan/ Reman doffs etc. In that cases the missions could vary - some times it would be necessary to overthrow the present leadership (I guess some people try to build their very personal Empire, warlord-like, and are not open for negotiation), but in others it should be possible to made a deal (of course the Republic must be also willing to offer something, to change their society towards a much more pro-tradition way, open itself up towards members of the Imperial Remnants and the TS). There might be also the possibility for political missions on New Romulos - convince hard-core enemies of any negotiation (which in many cases could be found under D'Tans supporters, I guess - those how want to create a "new society" but hate the old one) by any methods necessary...
The senate is mentioned a few times in game... and yet no one ever remembers it :P Weather they have Remans isn't mentioned but the Senate is. And I agree itd be nice to get a 20s cutscene showing elections for the new proconsul or even just a few senate seats, just so its very obviously shown, this is not a D'Tan only govt.
I'd love to see some recruiting-for-the-Republic missions, even if they're simple dailies for development CXP or Romulan Marks. And some eventual build-up of New Romulus would be amazing. I love the adventure zone in and around the staging area, but having a full-fledged capital city with a visible Republic Senate would be incredible.
I'd also like to see a couple of briefly mentioned arcs be closed up. A good example is the colony on Talvath that applied for Federation protection - maybe it appeals to the Republic now?
What about other colonies we see around Romulan space, and are listed as being independent or outside the RSE's influence in some way? Worlds such as Eirhess, Rhi, Vendor, and Rashana? Does D'Tan, and by extension our commanders, reach out to them?
What about the Romulan version of Risa, Brea? Does the Republic want to revive it, both as a source of income and a spot for weary Republicans to relax?
What does the Republic decide to do about the RSE's site of government in the Rator system?
Does D'Tan try to sway the RSE's other worlds to the Republic's cause? Like Cirini Prime and Alth'ndor?
Does the joint Vulcan-Romulan population on Khaiell decide the D'Tan's roots in the unification movement suggest opening talks with the Republic?
All questions I'd love to see answered. And taking these stories into their conclusion will all help make the Republic much more independent.
Kdf numbers will decline greatly to the independence and even romulans may get hurt by this, most players are casual and they do not want to pick a side thats harder or has less stuff so they will stick to the feds now if they lose that with there fed aligned romulan/reman...then they may go back to federation.
this could impact on the romulan faction something that it does not need right now!
If cryptic cannot even balance two factions how can they balance a third?
oh Im sure they COULD but there is a difference between can and willing.
i do not think it makes sense at all prior to lvl 50 kdf and ufp are still at war. that would actually be a conflict of interest with the romulans with Dtan stating they are romulans 1st. which would mean if following orders of their chosen faction could put them up against fellow romulans from the other side. now if they are romulans 1st this would could represent a major problem for battle field commanders. say you send this rommy out to do this or that and comes up to another rommy warbird flying wingman for a klingon. you fire your destabilized plasma at the klingon and take out your fellow rommy that cloaked next to him.
ok so you put transponders on all rommy ships that only transmit to other rommy ships same scenario. this time the Klingo nship is coming at you but you know the rommy is there cloaked. now what do you do? let them pass? contact the other rommy and risk exposing yourself, allowing the Klingon to fire 1st and possibly take you out when you cant return fire?
say rommie wingman breaks away from his Klingon partner this will alert the klingon something is up and fortify the klingon distrust in romulans, abandoning their post or not being a true member of the faction.
nah none of it makes sense to me. it was just the lazy way to give people rommies that htye had been begging for. and like so many things they only go half way do giving customers what they actually want.
I have to ask. Why does every argument about the divided path of romulans always come to a fleet action where fed-roms and kdf-roms have to shoot at each other?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Second I think not all players want to "waste" time and energy to think about the other aspects of this divide which are strange (the polictical consequences etc., the questions of ressources, logn term effects etc.) - that is more or less something for "hard core Romulans"
Of course you could answer, well, than Rom-players should avoid any fleet actions so that there is no danger of shooting at each other (as I do, and not as only one, I guess). But others would see that as a limitation, so the fact is hammered right in their face...
well mostly because it is a 100% valid argument that has not been explained as of yet. maybe when it is debunked we can give another reason why. but for now why beat on a dead horse by giving multiple reasons when ONE is all you need to validate your argument.
and im not a hard core Romulan i don't even like the Romulans i play as Klingon.
I could have sworn that this topic had already been asked and answered numerous times and it is the same as asking for removal of the favorite Romulan boff.
That said, I'm sure that the Republic's arrangement with the Federation and Empire has to be something along the lines of "hey, we're completely willing to help you, but at the same time... can we limit our exposure to the front lines of your war?" The Empire knows Republicans are in the Federation, and the Federation knows Republicans are in the Empire. And as we see, they both accept the Republic willingly, for their own reasons.
The Republic was a source of neutral ground for both the Federation and the Empire - and that ended up leading to cooperation in the Solanae Sphere, in the various conflicts with other races, and now the 'Delta Alliance.' Prior to these recent seasons, maybe having individual Republic commanders choose sides was a little... dangerous. But now that we're seeing the Republic's strength as a force in-between the Empire and the Federation, maybe having us Republic commanders in the other factions was a good thing? D'Tan had said that we needed to seek friends wherever we could - I think we accomplished that fairly well. And in fairness, the seasons that saw the breakdown of open hostilities between the Federation and the Empire came very shortly after LoR. So our influence was clearly felt very, very quickly.
Even during repeatable missions you might crash with the federation (raid their starbase in Tau Dewa etc.). So i would disagree that it don't put you in front of that war - but you are right, you do not crash with Fed-Roms so often.
And of course I disagree with that idea making friends with two nations who are at that time in war with each other. At least that should own D'Tan indeed a crown - a fool's one!:D
If cryptic would at least somehow action logically, than perhaps the softies of the Fed might accept the Romulan attitude. The Empire? No chance. Klingons have not much sympathy left for people who avoid battles...
By the way in general I am a bit pissed off this all "let us rally against the greater foe, lalala we all are nice, peace and flowers for everyone". It would be better if the conflict between Empire, Federation and even Romulans stay, not vanish. It is too simple if you enemies are EVER only the BAD, BAD, people - not people where you know you could easily been on the other side. War is not very often good vs. bad, black against white, but I see this truth pass away.
And I think it WAS a stupid idea from D'Tan playing nice with Klingons AND Federation while he still was not able to change his non-romulan society so that he could reach out to other children of the raptor in TS and Imperial Remnants. It should be more important for Romulans to save what is left of their people (even if that mean compromises), not playing peace-mediator for the galaxy. A conflict between the remaining great powers would perhaps even in their interest since it gave them opportunities to enlarge their own influence while the greater powers are busy.
My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing
You are not seeking justice on the sto forums, don't you.
[Combat (Self)] You lose 6549 (7572) Cold from the torment of the underworld.
In-game handle @Janetza
markhawkman: Well, than it would be justified for Romulans to cry "Death to the Klingons, the Remans and the Federation, too!" (and of course "Death to Romulan Republic!") - all of them have Romulan blood on their hands, and not only a little bit.
What did the TS do so horrible? Some very few persons within the TS and the Empire were involved in the Hobus-supernova (surely a catastrophe beyond any imagination), but most of the few or even all were not in that way involved that they know what would be the result. They were on many cases manipulated. And of course a huge majority of TS (99,9 percent or even much more) had nothing to to with the thing. To hell, D'Tan and his men nearly crashed in a similar way when they played with the gateway - were they punished for that? It want not so bad, but only because of luck, not of wisdom.
If it comes to oppression...well the TS had another Empire in mind than D'Tans little playground (which has nothing to do with a real Romulan society, it is more a dream of Vulcan-loving nearly-Fed-like pseudo-Romulans - or so at least a lot of traditional thinking Romulans will say, quiet the majority of the children of the Raptor) and they use hard tactics to defend that in times of rebellion or war. Not enough for a death penalty for ALL of them, many Romulans both in and outside the Republic will think. D'Tans hardcore supporters seem not be satisfied before not the last Romulan who dreams and fight for another society than they wish is killed or at least forced to surrender. Well, what a wonderful new world...;)
There are a handful of great episodes in TNG where we get a closer look into Romulan society. And Id venture to say, from that inside perspective, the average Romulan is probably a lot more peaceful and normal by our standards.
Unification: Data and Picard go down to Romulus to find Spock. People are shown to fear the Tal Shair, and fear open comments against the government. The woman serving at the restaurant is definitely not happy, and we dont see many happy citizens either. The RSE and the Tal Shiar are not appreciated by the average citizen, and its stated as much in the episode.
The Chase: the Cardassians and Klingons want nothing to do with any of the races that beamed down and witnessed the holographic projection that was locked in everyones genetic code. The Romulan commander, however, made a point to cautiously step out of line and contact Picard, saying only Maybe one day... This isnt the first time we see a military commander express guarded openness to the Federation and it isnt the last.
Face of the Enemy: while Troi is posing as a Tal Shiar officer, we see many, many instances where its clear that the Tal Shiar isnt even liked by the military. And Troi is able to take command of the ship, simply by using vague threats that seem to hit home with everyone. The Romulan commander is outright disrespectful to Troi, and goes to great lengths to vocalize just how little appreciation she has for the RSEs protectors.
A couple general points as well. Most of the time we see Romulans, yes they are at odds with Starfleet. But I think its fairly clear that a lot of those commanders are either working for the Tal Shiar, are under Tal Shair orders, or are engaged actively in an anti-Federation operation. And there are plenty of examples where Romulans are very vocal against the oppressionist government, like the defections of Jarok and Mret, the anti-Tal Shiar teachings of Konsab, and the mere fact that the Unification Movement exists as a substantive entity.
Yes, its fair to say that the Republic should not be a simple clone of the Federation. But I dont believe DTan is working for that anyways. Its not like DTan was willing to back down during the Solanae conferences, and Cmdr. Jarok was more than willing to go toe-to-toe with Starfleet and the KDF.
In all, I dont think its too much of a problem that Romulans and Remans are looking to live in a little more of a peaceful environment, given the last couple decades since Shinzon.
Back in reunification the underground needed to get Picard and Data off the streets in a manner no one would question. So they sent men armed with rifles to arrest them in broad daylight as the tal shiar. Says a lot about how the old government worked.
The D'tan hate comes from him being the boy studying under Spock in reunification. He tosses out Spock's name as the answer to justify his choices. D'tan hate is also much like the hatred of Tovan Khev and how LoR came about. Instead of a full faction. (Which seemed a huge gamble that could have sunk the game.) Cryptic hedged their bet and made up a story line for a half faction. So they could cut cost and thus risk less. Tovan was an answer to the comments about not having great NPC's like certain other games. But to do what that game did they would have needed to write stories for a half dozen characters you would be stuck with and see which one you kept by your side and which ones just hung out on your ship. Again it seems they got so far on writing him in that they needed to cut losses and the other 'face' npcs got cut out. But him you were stuck with.
D'tan is the make a storyline we could be blurred between the two factions. This felt wrong because Star Fleet pretty much feels like the Federation. The KDF (especially after LoR) feels like the Klingon Empire. Feds are noble explorers that can fight back. Klingons are proud and boastful warriors. The Romulans we got. . . Where is the ingrained code of conduct and duty shown in Balance of Terror? Where is the steel hand in a silk glove as seen in the Enterprise Incident? Where is the chess match of wits that Picard described The Defector?
We did not get them. We got farmers blown off their world, scooped up by a ragtag fleet of defectors that are lead by a man that dreams of walking in rapture on Vulcan. So no one got what they expected based on previous success with the other two factions. And it gets summed up with D'tan. Since he is the in game architect of the new way for Romulans, he is why no one got what they were salivating for.
Now personally, I think he may be more shrewed than people give him credit for. We shall see.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Simple... prior to the last FE we had, D'Tan came off as either naive, or incompetent(pushing the iconian gateway activation like Kererek). On top of those traits he comes off willing to suck off anyone and everyone that might give him some cookies. These are not the traits of a good Romulan. Now I admit it WAS a bit refreshing seeing him act more like a normal Romulan in the last FE, hopefully that will continue since we're forced to keep him.
I disagree here, see above for my reasoning behind the D'Tan hate
While I could niggle at the argument that the federation 'feels' like the federation I agree much with this
We can but hope
And, as chip pointed out, this isn't a new development. Remember the Battle of the Omarion Nebula? Whose stupid idea was that?
My character Tsin'xing