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Welcome to the 1 year crafting grind. Let them know what we think.

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    atlmyklatlmykl Member Posts: 305 Arc User1
    edited July 2014
    wpace2 wrote: »
    There's no way I'm going to grind crafting for a year :mad: Talk about cheeks in seats thats going to do the total opposite.

    Its less than 100 day to lvl 15. A that lvl you have 37% chance for a vr and you can start making the special items. Plus I would not call 2 clicks per day a grind. That word is thrown around far to often here.
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    puttenhamputtenham Member Posts: 1,052 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Really all they've done is mapped out a player spectrum here...

    On one end of the spectrum are the f2ps and the casuals... The 'loyalists'... Pretty much they sign on... Do what they like to do... don't spend much money unless they see something they cant live without... but they'll flat out just never leave... For these people the question is 'if the person is going to be here for the next 5 years come hell or high water... how much of a hurry are they going to be in to hit max crafting?'

    And the answer to that question is 'they wouldnt complain if it took a year, because they're not in a hurry and they know they'll be here next year. If it takes a year and its free... They're on board.'

    The other side of the spectrum is the 'MUST BE BEST NOW' contingent. The action junkies... The most pyrrhic and fervent players who's soul cries out for maximum visceral experience and a maximum sense of velocity. They want to be the best and by that measure best doesnt just mean best... It means best fastest... and ideally it means best fastest... at any cost!!!

    For these people the question is 'where's the limit to at any cost?'... and we all know already how much zen/dilithium it could cost to max all schools in the minimum time. So there's your pricepoint.

    The idea is that every single player will fall somewhere within this spectrum. If you're not going to touch the crafting system then this is simply a patch that doesn't apply to you... You have to at least be on the 'casual' end of the spectrum for cryptic to even be concerned with your opinion on it. If you're SOOO casual that a project a day for 200 days is too much for you... You're far too casual to care about... you're more interested in some other spectrum of content... however... if you're one iota less casual than that... You might give them some strata of cash to speed up the process, whatever strata that is.

    In this case the loudest voices seem to be the ones who are so upset at the casual end of the spectrum that they'd rather be non participants... The only way the system fails is if *everyone in the game* is off the casual end of the spectrum. Cryptic is gambling that despite the fervent volume in these threads that at the end of the day this is not true. You may be upset today. But tomorrow you'll craft a little. and maybe 90 days from now it'll seem like just another thing you do each day... and maybe at some point during the 200 day process you'll get a paycheck... and your patience will wane a little... and thats money in the pocket.

    Cryptic is betting that although you think you're off the far end of the spectrum, you're really more in the middle, and you just need some time to figure that out for yourself.

    \0/ fanboys, making gaming companies feel good about making crappy decisions that TRIBBLE most people since the beginning....

    this is just like the 4th anniversary event, where they messed around with us, claimed they were listening, and when thousands of posts told them they did it wrong, they just went along with it anyways.. (cause that shows they are listening to me..)..
    even in this thread as we talk, there is an overwhelming support per single poster towards not liking this once bit.. and yet it will shine on.. cause that's what you do when you run a business.. when almost all of your clientell tell you something is not right, or they don't like it, you just tell your clientell they are wrong and you know best...

    good for you and your business practices cryptic.. and good for the fanboys who enable them... yay....
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    johngazmanjohngazman Member Posts: 2,826 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    A small dedicated few and a large group that is going to read these forums and figure out that you MUST invest time to have awesome gear.

    Which, in and of itself, isn't the problem - no-one's expecting to arrive in the game, be level 50 in five minutes with top end gear.

    But when two, three and four year veterans, who've done everything else worth doing in the game (including having max crafting), are being forced to pay through the nose or grind for another year before they can have the new top level gear is taking the [Redacted].

    But of course, this is all moot. Al Rivera doesn't care about fairness. He - and PWE - care about money, metrics and cold, hard statistics. Welcome to Sales Projection Spreadsheet Online.
    You're just a machine. And machines can be broken.
    StarTrekFirstContactBorgBattleonetumblr_lln3v6QoT31qzrtqe.gif
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    vesterengvestereng Member Posts: 2,252 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    If you remember al rivera on the pod said he felt he was owed some credit for giving people inventory slots with crafting.

    Probably he had pictured the initial feedback being all cheers about inventory slots and could be part of what made him upset enough to start dissing people.

    As it turned into a focus on the doff UI, what he wanted to talk about was completely overlooked and ignored - the exact reaction you actually saw from him...

    So that was just straight up a payback eye for an eye emotional reaction.
    "See how it feels when people ignore you !!!11"

    The choice to increase crafting's timegate with 500% two days later, what do you say to something like that?


    Additionally I have to say putting dil on to the completion button is the most pityful thing they came up with so far.
    I thought they said the game was doing great so what gives
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    tarastheslayertarastheslayer Member Posts: 1,541 Bug Hunter
    edited July 2014
    The fact that they seem to have implied ... admittedly I have not had a chance to listen to the whole POD cast... That there was no actionable feedback from the Tribble Thread...

    Excuse me?! 'No actionable feedback,' you mean all the reasonable feedback people have given doesn't mean a jot to them because they choose to ignore it essentially? That's just low, I'm sorry but what exactly is his definition of 'actionable feedback' if the myriad of feedback that's already happened isn't good enough?

    I've seen plenty of good ideas, this is just another example of why the devs are completely out of touch and not listening to us like they claim to, as I said in a previous post it is controversial and irritating topics they're not willing to engage with us in.
    Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
    I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
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    rinksterrinkster Member Posts: 3,549 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    johngazman wrote: »
    Which, in and of itself, isn't the problem - no-one's expecting to arrive in the game, be level 50 in five minutes with top end gear.

    But when two, three and four year veterans, who've done everything else worth doing in the game (including having max crafting), are being forced to pay through the nose or grind for another year before they can have the new top level gear is taking the [Redacted].

    But of course, this is all moot. Al Rivera doesn't care about fairness. He - and PWE - care about money, metrics and cold, hard statistics. Welcome to Sales Projection Spreadsheet Online.

    Worth noting also, that those very 2,3 and 4 year veterans are the very people who paid his wages when they didn;t have enough coffee cups.

    No good deed goes unpunished, eh, Mr Rivera?
  • Options
    saedeithsaedeith Member Posts: 628 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    vestereng wrote: »
    If you remember al rivera on the pod said he felt he was owed some credit for giving people inventory slots with crafting.

    Probably he had pictured the initial feedback being all cheers about inventory slots and could be part of what made him upset enough to start dissing people.

    As it turned into a focus on the doff UI, what he wanted to talk about was completely overlooked and ignored - the exact reaction you actually saw from him...

    So that was just straight up a payback eye for an eye emotional reaction.
    "See how it feels when people ignore you !!!11"

    The choice to increase crafting's timegate with 500% two days later, what do you say to something like that?


    Additionally I have to say putting dil on to the completion button is the most pityful thing they came up with so far.
    I thought they said the game was doing great so what gives

    The fact that he is tooting his own horn over that is a joke. Lets keep things in perspective, he's developing a video game not curing cancer.
  • Options
    gooddaytodie39gooddaytodie39 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Really all they've done is mapped out a player spectrum here...

    On one end of the spectrum are the f2ps and the casuals... The 'loyalists'... Pretty much they sign on... Do what they like to do... don't spend much money unless they see something they cant live without... but they'll flat out just never leave... For these people the question is 'if the person is going to be here for the next 5 years come hell or high water... how much of a hurry are they going to be in to hit max crafting?'

    And the answer to that question is 'they wouldnt complain if it took a year, because they're not in a hurry and they know they'll be here next year. If it takes a year and its free... They're on board.'

    The other side of the spectrum is the 'MUST BE BEST NOW' contingent. The action junkies... The most pyrrhic and fervent players who's soul cries out for maximum visceral experience and a maximum sense of velocity. They want to be the best and by that measure best doesnt just mean best... It means best fastest... and ideally it means best fastest... at any cost!!!

    For these people the question is 'where's the limit to at any cost?'... and we all know already how much zen/dilithium it could cost to max all schools in the minimum time. So there's your pricepoint.

    The idea is that every single player will fall somewhere within this spectrum. If you're not going to touch the crafting system then this is simply a patch that doesn't apply to you... You have to at least be on the 'casual' end of the spectrum for cryptic to even be concerned with your opinion on it. If you're SOOO casual that a project a day for 200 days is too much for you... You're far too casual to care about... you're more interested in some other spectrum of content... however... if you're one iota less casual than that... You might give them some strata of cash to speed up the process, whatever strata that is.

    In this case the loudest voices seem to be the ones who are so upset at the casual end of the spectrum that they'd rather be non participants... The only way the system fails is if *everyone in the game* is off the casual end of the spectrum. Cryptic is gambling that despite the fervent volume in these threads that at the end of the day this is not true. You may be upset today. But tomorrow you'll craft a little. and maybe 90 days from now it'll seem like just another thing you do each day... and maybe at some point during the 200 day process you'll get a paycheck... and your patience will wane a little... and thats money in the pocket.

    Cryptic is betting that although you think you're off the far end of the spectrum, you're really more in the middle, and you just need some time to figure that out for yourself.

    A good crafting system, IMO, would appeal to everyone casual and hardcore alike and even go so far as to get people who aren't really into crafting to craft. This crafting system doesn't do that and it goes the opposite direction. It confuses casual players who don't even know how to do it or where to get the mats and pisses off the hardcore players who can see it for what it is and agree that it will take way too long to be able to craft anything worthwhile. And it has very little unique or interesting things to craft to bring people in that wouldn't craft otherwise.

    It's a very limited system IMO. Like most things Cryptic does in STO. Because STO is very limited by a small team and a small budget so it is what it is.

    As it is now, there is no reason to level by crafting and the only decent way to level is through the 20hr project. Crafting MKIV consoles is just a absolute waste of time and resources.
    To me that's another main problem here.
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    atlmyklatlmykl Member Posts: 305 Arc User1
    edited July 2014
    atlmykl wrote: »
    Its less than 100 day to lvl 15. A that lvl you have ~25% chance for a vr and you can start making the special items. Plus I would not call 2 clicks per day a grind. That word is thrown around far to often here.

    Make that 37% chance for vr at 15. I remembered incorrectly.
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    lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited July 2014
    atlmykl wrote: »
    Make that 37% chance for vr at 15. I remembered incorrectly.

    Exactly why lvl 15 is still TRIBBLE. Drop VR materials and dil and you can get blue junk.
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    puttenhamputtenham Member Posts: 1,052 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    atlmykl wrote: »
    Its less than 100 day to lvl 15. A that lvl you have 37% chance for a vr and you can start making the special items. Plus I would not call 2 clicks per day a grind. That word is thrown around far to often here.

    the problem is having to log in everyday to do it.. if someone is like me, I log in a few times a week. maybe more depending on the weather.. I don't get out of work, and run home yelling "get out of my way, I have to do 2 clicks"... cryptic keeps doing this daily maintenance trend.. its ok for something like the summer or winter event. cause its only a small portion of the year.. but in this instance, they are asking you to do it for a whole year or more..

    for people like me, this is going to take even longer to do than a year.. this is BS.... I can see gating it a little to try and get the impatient to click the finish now more often.. but making it take this long, F that.. I was excited to start crafting things like the Omni directional pahsers and what not, but I wont, cause I will not touch the crafting system now..

    cryptic is losing touch with the players.. like I said in an earlier post.. I believe in the next year or two, cryptic will be the punchline to a lot of jokes from online game forums and news outlets as what not to do to drive your player base away..

    remember, most of us are not saying they shouldn't make it take "some" time, but they just made it impossible for most players.. as a lot of players have jobs, kids, wives, husbands, bands, the outdoors, and other distractions.. they always assume that the average player plays 5 hours every single day.. that just is not the case...

    further more. Gekos interview the other day further demonstrates that they do not listen to, or even seem to seek out feedback. (I used to be one who said they do listen, but just don't always respond.) but honestly, I watched the tribble feedback, and while there were a lot of idiots saying stupid unproductive things, there was a lot of people giving good constructive feedback.. for him to say they had no constructive feedback was a straight up lie..

    the track record shows that cryptic is more worried about launching patches than making sure they work right, or that they work right for the players playing it.. I mean, this game has had the most down time out of any game I have ever played.. and it has stirred more controversy (from new stuff, or nerfs or buffs) in such a short amount of time than I have ever seen in any game..

    they don't want to spend time making this patch perfect cause now they have to shift all hands to making the expansion..

    gecko not wanting to look at the forums while he was on the podcast was an indicator that he knew he was wrong, and did not want to face the music.. if infact knew there was no useable data in the tribble section, he would have gladly made examples of it and shown mav what he was talking about.. he is so full of you know what..

    I did love how defeated he sounded when he talked about releasing the wolf 359 ships eventually and what not.. I loved that.. it sounded like that was a decision he didn't make, and that someone above him made it.. I rewinded and listened to that over and over and over again... lol..
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    daqheghdaqhegh Member Posts: 1,490 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    lucho80 wrote: »
    Exactly why lvl 15 is still TRIBBLE. Drop VR materials and dil and you can get blue junk.

    Yeah, I still don't understand why they would make purple materials so hard to get AND employ a lottery system to make "end game" gear. You would think at least the items requiring purple materials would come out purple MKXII, if not orange. It boggles the mind.

    EDIT: I get that MK levels are selected during crafting. It just came out wrong. But I think everyone gets the idea.
    My Old Blog about things that could and should have been added when I wrote it. Not sure what I want to do with it now. I'll just keep it available now that most of it is outdated.
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    sophus84atsophus84at Member Posts: 404 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    yeah you choose what MK level.... but an MK XII WHITE or GREEN stuff doesnt use anything at all
    "Mei Borg is net deppat".....

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    ashkrik23ashkrik23 Member Posts: 10,809 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I wish someone from the team would respond. Only Taco has but he was just apologizing to players about them not having anymore fun.
    King of Lions rawr! Protect the wildlife of the world. Check out my foundry series Perfection and Scars of the Pride. arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/1138650/ashkrik23s-foundry-missions
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    elvnswordselvnswords Member Posts: 184 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    ashkrik23 wrote: »
    I wish someone from the team would respond. Only Taco has but he was just apologizing to players about them not having anymore fun.

    Is there a link to this, I think if nothing else it might take some sting out to know someone in there gives a flying @#$! for anything save my wallet.
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    hyplhypl Member Posts: 3,719 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    elvnswords wrote: »
    Is there a link to this, I think if nothing else it might take some sting out to know someone in there gives a flying @#$! for anything save my wallet.

    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=18161051&postcount=61
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    ashkrik23ashkrik23 Member Posts: 10,809 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Ah, ya beat me to it hehe
    King of Lions rawr! Protect the wildlife of the world. Check out my foundry series Perfection and Scars of the Pride. arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/1138650/ashkrik23s-foundry-missions
    ashkrik_by_lindale_ff-d65zc3i.png
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    grayfoxjamesgrayfoxjames Member Posts: 1,516 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Yeah the isometric components to make the Omni directional beam cost 4,000 Dilithium or 10,000,000 on exchange each and you need 4 of them...granted drops just started a few days ago...for me it's as if Season 9.5 didn't even happen, in fact it probably won't be released for me until 1.5 years from now; because that's probably when most people will enjoy it.


    I'm in the mode of just "set it and forget it" (to coin a commercial phrase) I'll set my daily 20hr projects when I can and call it crafting for now...so far as I'm concerned it's still Season 9 for me; and I'm one of those that drop the money a lot for Zen to Dil but $100-$120 to bum rush a school to 15 probably not for me. Too pricey.

    *waves* take care Season 9.5 I'll see you late 2015, early 2016!
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    atlmyklatlmykl Member Posts: 305 Arc User1
    edited July 2014
    lucho80 wrote: »
    Exactly why lvl 15 is still TRIBBLE. Drop VR materials and dil and you can get blue junk.

    The specials at 15 are guaranteed vr. How is that TRIBBLE?

    Do you expect everyone to be master at all skills all at once making guaranteed game breaking gear day one?
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    judasjungjudasjung Member Posts: 22 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Something tells me the Dev team watched this:

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ifmRgQX82O4
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    macroniusmacronius Member Posts: 2,526
    edited July 2014
    Every-time I think Craptic has hit a new nadir they manage to surprise me by doing something even more greedy, grindy or just plain dumb. This company truly has a talent for epic failures.

    As to the players who plan to do this grind. Good luck finding someone to buy your hundred million EC toys a year or 2 from now.
    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

    - Judge Aaron Satie
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    lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited July 2014
    atlmykl wrote: »
    The specials at 15 are guaranteed vr. How is that TRIBBLE?

    Do you expect everyone to be master at all skills all at once making guaranteed game breaking gear day one?

    I was talking about the beams, deflectors and shields (Up until now, I've only seen the Aegis stuff get UR special versions which I don't like), and other non-new gear.

    And now that I'm talking about that, is there any non-(Aegis/beams/cannons/special new consoles) UR/VR gear with new mods, or is it just limited to weapons?

    I feel like they poured all their efforts in new mods for weapons. I'd love to find a VR deflector or shield that carries interesting new mods, but either they don't exist, or the fex maxed out crafters haven't bothered making them.
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    daqheghdaqhegh Member Posts: 1,490 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    atlmykl wrote: »
    The specials at 15 are guaranteed vr. How is that TRIBBLE?

    It's TRIBBLE because along the way before level 15 we can very well be wasting hard to get (sometimes exchange exclusive) purple materials and components on blue gear. NOTHING that requires purple should result in anything less than purple. Period.
    My Old Blog about things that could and should have been added when I wrote it. Not sure what I want to do with it now. I'll just keep it available now that most of it is outdated.
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    macroniusmacronius Member Posts: 2,526
    edited July 2014
    474 posts and still no word from dev or community rep. Oh I forgot, Brankflakes isn't here anymore.
    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

    - Judge Aaron Satie
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    spacebaronlinespacebaronline Member Posts: 1,103 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    macronius wrote: »
    474 posts and still no word from dev or community rep. Oh I forgot, Brankflakes isn't here anymore.

    What are they to say? Dan Stahl was the last Exec whole would jump in the forum when they made a change that really got the pitchforks out - but he is not there anymore(well on STO). Brandon was good - but he could not make decisions on the game. During the Dilithium or FM fiasco - only Mr Stahl came on the forums to intercede.

    I doubt there will be any word on this for some time since the thing is so new.
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    daqheghdaqhegh Member Posts: 1,490 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I doubt there will be any word on this for some time since the thing is so new.

    Wrong. There's no word because they have nothing to say. They made it, we played it, end of story. They aren't communicating because they don't care what we think. There's no reason for them to apologize for making money. And they did NOTHING with the constructive criticism from the tribble test. If they cared about their playerbase they would at least explain their reasoning. But they don't and never will. So all we can do is ride the storm until they decide the change things. Given the sheer amount of money they stand to make with the new changes implemented recently (as in the one-project-per-school idea), I don't see them actually reaching out to us. It's mre of a "haha I got your lunch money!" situation.
    My Old Blog about things that could and should have been added when I wrote it. Not sure what I want to do with it now. I'll just keep it available now that most of it is outdated.
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    lordagamemnonb5lordagamemnonb5 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    macronius wrote: »
    474 posts and still no word from dev or community rep. Oh I forgot, Brankflakes isn't here anymore.

    Branflakes would have started making up rules that were supposedly being broken, closed the thread, and handed out warnings and infractions.

    Stahl would have asked for Harlem Shake videos by now.

    It's a toss-up; would we rather see Cryptic's apathy through power tripping and Non Sequitors or through non responses. Either way, the result would be the same.
    How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
    Star Trek: The Original Grind
    Star Trek: The Next Grind
    Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
    Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
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    spacebaronlinespacebaronline Member Posts: 1,103 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    daqhegh wrote: »
    Wrong. There's no word because they have nothing to say. They made it, we played it, end of story. They aren't communicating because they don't care what we think. There's no reason for them to apologize for making money. And they did NOTHING with the constructive criticism from the tribble test. If they cared about their playerbase they would at least explain their reasoning. But they don't and never will. So all we can do is ride the storm until they decide the change things. Given the sheer amount of money they stand to make with the new changes implemented recently (as in the one-project-per-school idea), I don't see them actually reaching out to us. It's mre of a "haha I got your lunch money!" situation.

    It is true that the devs are avoiding the forums more and more. When they do come they tend to get jumped on like crazy. So it's hard to see them coming back. The only Dev that really jumped into the frying pan often was Dan Stahl. Since he is not there I don't expect a direct response.

    Of course Mr Rivera could shock me and make a comment - he has been known to do that on rare occasions. Al? Al? Al?
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    jakal122481jakal122481 Member Posts: 135 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    lets be real here its obvious nothing will happen because we are enabling them to do this because no matter what they do we will continue to play some of us wont spend real cash but will continue to play so what if we all just stopped playing and stopped spending money? or even wouldn't log in for a week to show the devs we mean business? i bet they would be sweating bullets then. but this will never happen, im just saying because some of these companies are getting out of hand.
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