I don't know if it's been said, but removing clusters from the game means Omega Leonis will lose 8 options from the map, and lots of daily/dil options linked to them for KDF players.
But even if your skill, DOFF, Catalyst guarantees you that Purple...meh...you're still facing those random mods. Guess it's a Plan A and Plan B sort of gamble, eh? Gambling with Plan A that it's something you want and gambling with Plan B that it's something somebody else might want...otherwise, you're looking at vendor trash.
Yup, this, and the inability to reverse-engineer technology (deconstructing, etc in other MMOs) for XP and maybe some materials... those are the reasons I truly dislike the current system. Not a fan of the tiles, and really not a fan of the doffing getting caught in the UI crossfire, but the Palked school of design (Dumb Luck) is my biggest issue with the revamp as it stands.
So, to make this crafting system viable from my perspective:
1) Finish the promised [Mod] customization. I don't care about crafting loot drops for myself, but I'd be willing to grind to be able to make the things I actually want.
2) Allow for reverse-engineering of technology. If you find a nice, high tech version of something, why can't you take it apart to see how it works and learn something in the process? [EDIT*] There have been continued patent violations rulings concerning UIs in recent years that reflect that this is still a viable method of acquiring, duplicating, and occasionally advancing technology. While I don't expect disassembling a Phaser Beam Array Mk III to be worth much crafting XP, taking apart a Polarized Tetryon Beam Array Mk XI or Rapid Reload Transphasic Torpedo Launcher Mk XI should be both possible and rewarding as both have special features not available on conventional munitions. Plus, it serves to remove EC's from the economy as anything broken down can't be sold to a vendor.
Just those two and I'll be okay with the new system. I'd still dislike replacing the ~5s progress bar in the current system with timers measured in hours in the new system (with added Finish Now "feature"), the bulky and inefficient UI, the overflow of said UI into doffing, the loss of Clusters and resulting introduction of further inefficiencies to doffing ("Scimitarding" to the top of sector space is going to be irritating), the massive time suck that has been added (making components + long timers + farming materials in the new system vs progress bar + farming materials in the old system), sending helper monkeys (I mean doffs) to do the crafting instead of DIY, etc... but all of that would be tolerable if I could actually make what I wanted and reverse engineer loot drops.
There is good in the new system. I like the addition of the separate inventory tab to contain crafting materials, I like the ability to make relevant equipment, I like the unique [Mods] and items that are being tinkered with... but the thing I like most is that it's still not even into the beta version yet. The chance to provide feedback before the system is finalized, the ability to say why it doesn't meet my minimum requirements, those are things we haven't gotten the opportunity to do in previous seasons/expansions. I still remember the loss of dilithium and loot from the STFs, and that it took a surprisingly long time to put back anything approaching what was there beforehand... despite feedback from players testing on Tribble. This being released so early gives the devs time to actually respond to concerns, and also serves as a learning experience to them and us.
In the future, maybe the devs will post not that "Season 9.5 will be on Tribble soon and will be live in late July" (or whatever is being tested), but instead that an alpha version will be available for testing and feedback. Similarly, maybe we can take the WIP notice in the Tribble Patch Notes and accept that what we are seeing needs feedback, but isn't what will show up on Holodeck regardless of the feedback provided. Maybe it's overly optimistic, but it would be nice if this turns out to be a new process of game system design that actually asks, "What do you want out of this?" and uses our answers to provide it. I want to appreciate the effort put into S9.5.
[*EDIT] Removed a reference to early anatomical research in Scotland; that was kind of dark, so you can look up the details on your own if you choose. It does refer to taking things apart to see how they work, though.
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
Crafting is near and dear to me, so I'm keeping a very watchful eye on what's being updated on Tribble.
There are differing opinions going on in this thread, and I like hearing both sides of the coin. Each side has an argument that I honestly get, and it's helped me think about my opinions and what's going on.
Clusters: I used to farm samples in there all the time before unreplicatable materials were introduced; that's when I stopped crafting completely. Before then, I crafted all the time and was maxed. But samples were the only reason why I ever into them; I farmed everything in space and never actually did missions. Their removal does not affect my gameplay in any way. With that being said, I don't think it's ever a good idea to remove something that customers still use without having a viable replacement (that's preferably better than before). I also really like the idea of having the clusters be Foundry maps.
Their removal makes me hope that with X2 there is will be something more exploration-related coming (Delta quadrant) that is going to replace them, so I'm personally not up in arms about it. But I still think it's an overall poor decision to make, provided they had announced whether or not something was going to replace them before removing them. I get NDA's and secrecy, but I honestly don't buy "install size" either. There are other reasons...which won't really be revealed to us until they want us to know.
The only way I could buy the install size argument is if X2 is going to be HUGE.
Bottom line: although it doesn't personally affect me, it's not a smart business move. Communication with customers is key, and Cryptic has definitely been a mixed bag in that department. I'm hopeful that their removal will be followed by something better in X2, but that remains to be seen.
Dilithium/Crafting: I don't mind spending money on dilithium, as long as I have direct control over what I'm receiving in exchange for that dilithium (and what I'm receiving is worth my money). Cryptic has said modifiers will come later, just not in 9.5. Okay, I can live with that...provided they actually come, and not at some distant point in the future. I don't mind waiting until X2, but leaving it in a modifier-less state for a longer period of time means Cryptic has to wait longer to make money off me in crafting.
If what I heard in the podcast is true and this really is an "alpha", that should have been communicated either before the release of the build on Tribble, or in conjunction with the release. I believe that the playerbase would have been much for forgiving if they had known that. Waiting to tell us that until after the negative reaction smells too much like damage control. Since we do have some time until it's officially released, I'm cautiously optimistic about this actually being an "alpha" and that changes will be made based on our feedback. But again, whether or not that actually ends up being true remains to be seen.
If what I heard in the podcast is true and this really is an "alpha", that should have been communicated either before the release of the build on Tribble, or in conjunction with the release. I believe that the playerbase would have been much for forgiving if they had known that. Waiting to tell us that until after the negative reaction smells too much like damage control. Since we do have some time until it's officially released, I'm cautiously optimistic about this actually being an "alpha" and that changes will be made based on our feedback. But again, whether or not that actually ends up being true remains to be seen.
Honestly... ANY tribble build should be considered as such until it gets pushed to Live. It's what Tribble is for.
Honestly... ANY tribble build should be considered as such until it gets pushed to Live. It's what Tribble is for.
I agree. But that hasn't always proven true.
EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I'm not a hater. I'm also not a fanboy, either. I'm somewhere in between; that position can fluctuate depending upon a lot of different factors. In which direction that position will move is dependent upon what happens in the near future.
the current crafting system is noting more than a glorified slots machine.
when implemented it will add no value to the game. as of right now it's better to keep the old system. yes the old system is a glorified shop but at least you know what you'll be getting up ahead.
it's not all terrible the ui is good, the approach is kinda good and using doff was the right thing to do.
however since i have little to no control over the outcome it's not a crafting system. you just put materials in and a semi-random item drops out that is more or less how a slots machine functions.
it's only generating semi-random loot for an alternative price. if it was a true crafting system i'd have full control over the outcome. the crafting system should functionally much more closely resemble that of ESO or GW2.
when crafting items we need to be able to control the following factors
Item Type
MK
Rarity
Modifiers
right now i can only control the item type. Several MKs cannot be selected but at least there is limited control over that. Rarity is determined by a dice roll by the system i can influence the odds but in the end have no control.
modifiers is where crafting should shine but i can't even control it.
custom making items should be the corner stone of crafting. that would probably make crafted items more popular that found ones. but by allowing us to change modifier and deconstruct them for crafting materials this should not be a problem.
change crafting to
give us full control over all aspects of the outcome
allow us to change modifier on found items
deconstruct found items for crafting materials
my true concern here is that you can reach level 20 in a school of crafting and then still get a white quality item because of a bad roll by the system that you have no control over!
that can happen It's specifically sated that chances will never be 100%.
actually some people have been saying that the crafting I want is just a shop. I've been giving that some thought and concluded that it's true. crafting can't even be anything else. Crafing is to a EC/Dilitium shop what a Tailor is to a fashion shop. both are shops that sell cloths but only the tailor crafts them to perfectly fit you.
only by controlling every aspect can you tailor make the items for yourself and your build. that the hallmark of a truly great crafting system. the one that when you fully master it will allow you to tailor make items.
as of right now I don't see that happen, actually I see us getting a system that the furthest removed from that as it can be.
As I've said in other threads: I'm not going to gamble Dilithium for a "Chance" of crafting something I want. :mad:
A dictionary definition of "to craft":
to make or manufacture (an object or objects) with great skill and care.
Not:
to make or manufacture (an object or objects) by rolling a dice and hoping that you get what you desire.
I cannot see this system being changed, unfortunately.
it's actually already implied in the very word that you shouldn't be relying on random roll but still you do
THE NEW CRAFTING SYSTEM IS TERRA-BAD First of all it's not even a crafting system! It's just a dumb game system that's nothing more than a glorified slots machine.
second the "special items" you hope will be the saving the saving grace are messed up to.
the current crafting system is noting more than a glorified slots machine...
First, I like everything in your post.
Second, the best rpg crafting systems that exists can be found in "Dragon Age", "Diablo II", and "Neverwinter Nights".
When I think of crafting systems, the first thing that comes to mind is 'weapon and gear customization'. Within the "Dragon Age" series, you gather or buy various sets of artifacts and runes. Players use the runes to enhance the functionality of certain gear. While the rune drops are random, player can buy specific ones from shops. Players have full control over the outcome.
"Star Trek: Online's" crafting system, as you know, relies too much upon fate.
My suggestions:
(1) Failed attempts at making a certain level item would not be consequential. Instead of players losing precious resources, the system should return them to the crafter.
(2) Customizations should not be permanent. Players should have the ability to remove artifacts freely, so they can test various types of customizations.
(3) Crafting items should solely rely upon skill. Within the layout of the character sheet, players should find a third section dedicated to crafting. Instead of creating a bloated system, the crafting skills can fall below the ground ones. Space, ground, and crafting. As a player moves up to level fifty, the individual should have the option to add points to the crafting section. Other words, once a player gets to levels 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, and 50, the individual will get a specific number of points to level a chosen specialization.
(4) Since players have to buy and/or discover crafting artifacts, the cost to create an item should be 50-55% lower than market value. Instead of charging people 20,000 dilithium for a crafted item, the price to buy them should hover around 9,000 to 10,000 dilithium. 9,000 to 24,000 dilithium is the current market value of rep, fleet, and dilithium store items. Why would players need to pay 100% for a crafted item, which they have to put together themselves? Players are doing all of the work.
(5) Place a price cap on lower level crafting resources on the exchange. Since entry level players are limited in resources, they need an affordable alternative to mission drops. I am referring to the common, uncommon, rare, and very rare resources, which are needed to craft MK I - MK IX items.
(6) Make crafted items 'bound to account on equip'.
(7) Limit timegates from one to two hour intervals.
(8) Allow multiple same level items to be crafted at the same time.
(9) If Cryptic is going to remove the clusters, I would make an entire sector devoted to resource gathering. Players get to co-op or solo missions in a sector, which contains at least eight to ten different mini maps. You can also add a few 'open door' (not open world) PvP maps. 'Open Door' = No queue.
SO I used the crafting system for the first time on tribble.
Level 21 character could not do the crafting at all. Even though I had the ability to do the material mini-game, I could not keep what I won. The R&D Storage Tab had no blocks in it to store the material in. And I couldn't put the materials in normal storage either. SO I wasted my time with the material gain. The funny thing is that I could look at the R&D DOff Tab and look at what I can craft.
SO I hoped onto the level 50 character and it can do all of the R&D stuff. I found it annoying that when I went to craft a beam weapon, if I selected a Mk level I didn't have the materials to do, there wasn't a back button to change the Mk. I found this incredibly difficult and time consuming to exit and then re-enter the crafting block for that weapon. I also would like to see a way where we can state a quatity of components to build and a quantity of weapons to build. I also would like for the jobs to autocomplete instead of having to go back and click a button to get the stuff. It's very annoying and interferes with playing the game itself.
I also noticed that the DOff interface had changed. And the only thing that I have a problem with is the fact that the commendation exp are not grouped together and clearly marked as such. If I only want to do Military missions I have to waste time looking at each mission and figure out the rewards to see if it gives that kind of exp.
That's my first run through it. More later as I try it out further.
I also noticed that the DOff interface had changed. And the only thing that I have a problem with is the fact that the commendation exp are not grouped together and clearly marked as such. If I only want to do Military missions I have to waste time looking at each mission and figure out the rewards to see if it gives that kind of exp.
That's my first run through it. More later as I try it out further.
You mean you can't search by department heads anymore?!? gah.....
You mean you can't search by department heads anymore?!? gah.....
You can search by your department heads. But you can't search by COmmendations. SO in the list you might see a military followed by a science then followed by diplomatic. No ordering of the comendation exp you are going to get.
I agree with you. Any view other then Cryptic thinking or doesn't kiss Cryptic behind is viewed negative. Although Cryptic says they want players feedback.
Seriously. I think if someone isn't a a "Yes. Ma'am", Cryptic look at negatively.
Not quite that bad. Pretty much everything about crafting and the doff UI has gotten negative feedback from me, with a couple exceptions... and I can still find my posts [EDIT] other than the one referencing Right Said Fred that added nothing to the actual conversation beyond a little humor; that one deserved to go, I'm ashamed of even remembering that song :P [/EDIT]. I think the distinction that CaptainSmirk is trying to make is that: you can provide feedback; you cannot insult the devs or other forum users. I have seen a few posts that were insulting kicking about on both sides of the discussion, and they're still there; the posts I have seen disappear contained actual insults. Basically, avoid ad hominem arguments and you should be fine.
(Please correct me if I'm wrong CaptainSmirk)
I for one like very, very little about the new system... and that is by far outweighed by what makes the game worse (from my perspective). For me, the random chance and inability to reverse engineer technologies are what tips the scales to make the new system (both crafting and the doffing UI collateral damage) as it stands a waste of developer resources. That does not mean I dislike the devs. There is a difference, so I tell said devs what I dislike about the new system in the hopes that it can be made better. I don't insult the devs, because they are the ones that might just fix it before it comes to Holodeck.
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
Quotes from the marketing department (aka on Arc's Star Trek Online page)
"Explore strange new worlds and seek out new life and new civilizations in a vast, expanding universe."
"...our designers can focus less on a games nuts and bolts and more on creating a game that captures Star Treks essence, guaranteeing that both longtime fans of Star Trek and people new to the universe will feel at home."
I'm logging into Tribble now, to double check what I've heard here...but if these forums are correct, I'd suggest a sit-down with the marketing folks.
Quotes from the marketing department (aka on Arc's Star Trek Online page)
"Explore strange new worlds and seek out new life and new civilizations in a vast, expanding universe."
"...our designers can focus less on a games nuts and bolts and more on creating a game that captures Star Treks essence, guaranteeing that both longtime fans of Star Trek and people new to the universe will feel at home."
I'm logging into Tribble now, to double check what I've heard here...but if these forums are correct, I'd suggest a sit-down with the marketing folks.
The truth can be found somewhere between what marketing says and some of the complaints made by players...it's an internal truth, do you enjoy the game? Nobody can tell you if you do or do not...only you can know whether you do.
In the future, maybe the devs will post not that "Season 9.5 will be on Tribble soon and will be live in late July" (or whatever is being tested), but instead that an alpha version will be available for testing and feedback.
This. And, to be more direct with my own related opinion, don't make a hard deadline. Don't give a date at all.
Yes, I realize that corporations like timelines and hard deadlines and "drop-dead" dates.
But this is a QoL update for us. Make the shipping date "when it's ready" and define "ready" as not getting any more bug reports except extreme corner cases, and a large cross-section of us are happy. (I'd never suggest "most" or "all" of us being happy; this is the forums. You could ship gold bars to all our houses and SOMEBODY would complain about the color of the delivery truck.)
Yes. You will get criticism for not giving a date. Yes, you will still have some people who don't like it, because they've decided they aren't going to ahead of time. Yes, a bug will poke its ugly green head up out of the code somewhere. But a smooth rollout, no next-day "oh s&^$" patches, and the usual "Cryptic f^$%s everything up" crew being silenced would be a pretty decent definition of success, at least in my opinion. Isn't that worth giving up the traditional notion of a ship date?
One thing I would like to see with the new crafting system is same material should come in as normal drops. Also for those that have already completed the old or current system should get a crafting percentage bonus.
First of all, people... pls don't be rude, if you don't like something, just say
I don't like it and here is why ... ... ... ... ...
This would make it cool ... ... ... ... ...
If everyone were smart and just fallowed that formula then we wouldn't have any problem, and the you might actually like the game.
I used to be very critical on games, and much like people on the forums.
But one day... I saw the light: People work hard to get a pay check at the end of the month on this game, but some of them work hard because they actually like programing and stuff.
And then, you and me come along and play it, some give a little back by paying and some give back by giving comments and HELPFUL feedback.
And some people just enjoy it, which, for the people that actually like programing, is all they need.
But then there are the ungrateful and just stupid people that do neither. And sadly, STO has a lot of them.
For all you Devs out there, if I could do something about all the mean people out there... I'd do it in a heartbeat, because to quote another poster, which I don't know who he is: Insults aren't feedback.
But anyway, lets get to the topic on hand, can we craft skills one day? That would be cool.
Please don't be rude and call your fellow players stupid and ungrateful. Players work hard at whatever their jobs are each day too. And have a love of video games and with this game likely Star Trek as well. So they get home and fire up the computer and want to enjoy the game they paid money to play and it ends up causing frustration instead, they leave feedback. Sometimes they vent first. Keep that in mind. They play like you do. And they care about the game too.
The devs seem like they lost their passion for why they got into gaming in the first place.
I'm not into crafting in mmorpgs. I don't buy crafted items or bother with it. What has been done feels very much to me like what they did in Champions Online, and everyone I know, the biggest SG (nearly the entire original playerbase) in that game all quit when they altered the crafting system. Pulsewave, Kenpo all those people who made champions great and 1000s of guides for Champions, all left to play Marvel Heroes now. It sucks to be driven out by changes like this but it's hard to back a game that isn't the game you initially liked. It's like I loved the original Star Wars films but I don't get behind the newer prequels. Star Wars falling apart is what got me looking for something new which was Star Trek. Old but still new to me and then this game came along and here I am.
I hope they fix whatever the problem is or just scrap this and do something useful like make a system where I don't have to erase my bridge officers memory of being schooled in an ability and replace it with a new memory of learning a new ability. It's annoying.
Or how about how limited the c store is with clothing we can wear? Why can't we wear this with that or why can't these hairstyles on romulans be on vulcans so we have some variety for once?
Sorry to go off topic there, I am almost checked out on this game though with the traits and now this crafting overhaul. The only reason I play Cryptic games is they are really casual mmos, for a modern world were people have lives, other responsibilities and just lots of things going on, and can't devote the same kinds of hours to mmos as were originally being devoted half a decade ago. I love Star Trek Online and the developers seemed great here but it just feels like they are losing touch lately. No disrespect intended to the devs or any players.
First let me be clear. I have not read all 75 pages of this thread. but the above i highlighted is what bothers me.
if, as it is alleged, that you are not getting what you are crafting.. I.E. you attempt to craft a MK XII purple beam weapon and you get a MK x white one, then that's gambling. I question the legality, considering that Dilithium can be bought with zen, which can be bought with real money
The Mk of the items you craft is fixed, the quality and [Mods] are variable. This is why the promised [Mod] customization is so good; even if you get random [Mods] from your crafted items, if you can customize those [Mods] after the fact it would be okay... except the items you craft still have variable quality, so it may take you a few cycles to get something worth customizing.
The variability is a big part of why the dilithium costs and timers are such a gripe; the current dilithium costs could be adjusted as these numbers aren't set in stone yet, and hopefully the [Mod] customization won't add yet more dilithium costs and timers, but the initial costs we see not do not inspire confidence. The "normalizing" of dilithium and EC costs are not exactly inspiring either, since a ship has 6-8 weapons and only one deflector, engine, warp core, and shield each; plus, folks change payload more often that the other bits.
While I don't object to the monetization of the system via direct (and reasonable) dilithium costs or even by requiring a doff of equivalent quality to what your are making, variable outcomes and the time gate extortion are significant detriments when compared to the current system. Drop the dilithium from the crafting or ditch the timer that replaces the current progress bar, and the system would be okay. Give us the ability select [Mods] or finish the promised customization of [Mods], and it would be even better. Give us a UI designed for use in-game when we are in-game, in addition to the other changes, and I will praise the crafting revamp in my signature so everyone can see how great crafting is
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
So my second pass through this and the next issue I see is the amount of craft exp you need to go from Level 2 to Level three. It is way to great. That alone will stop new players from progressing far in it. Level 1 took 30 points. Level 2 took 100 points. But Level 3 takes 10,000 points? Why the superhuman leap at this stage. Now, to be honest, I can collect 600 points from doing a Tier VI beam console. But if you don't look you don't know you can do the higher Marks. There is nothing that tells you that the higher marks are now available.
I would like to see a more gradual climb to the next level, so that it doesn't seem so steep a climb from level to level. At least till 15. After 15 you can make it steep so that only really dedicated hardcore master crafters pursue those ranks.
SO far no dilithium costsd. But Once I hit those points I will probably not craft. I don't collect dilithium that fast. I never max out my refining limit daily except on rare occasions. I am just a casual gamer. If it's going to cost me thousands of Dilithium to craft mark XI and XII gear, well, I guess Rep gear and drops will just have to due for me. I don't have the time to collect dilithium and have fun at the same time. So I focus on the fun and not worry about the dilithium. Please consider this when you are assigning out the dil costs.
First let me be clear. I have not read all 75 pages of this thread. but the above i highlighted is what bothers me.
if, as it is alleged, that you are not getting what you are crafting.. I.E. you attempt to craft a MK XII purple beam weapon and you get a MK x white one, then that's gambling. I question the legality, considering that Dilithium can be bought with zen, which can be bought with real money
Be aware, that the quality is control also by skill level. The higher your skill the less likely you will get whites. With eventually the whites dropping and greens dropping and just blues and purples are made. ANd you can further modify the odds by having a better quality doff and getting some sort of modifying bits you can purchase from the c-store.
So if you have the right skill and doffs you can make it heavily favor getting blues or purples. But still it's just a chance for a purple.
SO far no dilithium costsd. But Once I hit those points I will probably not craft. I don't collect dilithium that fast. I never max out my refining limit daily except on rare occasions. I am just a casual gamer. If it's going to cost me thousands of Dilithium to craft mark XI and XII gear, well, I guess Rep gear and drops will just have to due for me. I don't have the time to collect dilithium and have fun at the same time. So I focus on the fun and not worry about the dilithium. Please consider this when you are assigning out the dil costs.
Same here i used to max out 2 characters on a 3 day basis but lately I'm lucky to get the max on one character once a week
NO TO ARC
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Be aware, that the quality is control also by skill level. The higher your skill the less likely you will get whites. With eventually the whites dropping and greens dropping and just blues and purples are made. ANd you can further modify the odds by having a better quality doff and getting some sort of modifying bits you can purchase from the c-store.
So if you have the right skill and doffs you can make it heavily favor getting blues or purples. But still it's just a chance for a purple.
You have more of a chance to get white and green at max level than purple once this goes live I see very little reason to sink Dil in this at the moment and it feels to much like a farmville game where you add x amount to speed up the crafting. Crafting used to be quick and simple. Get a schematic get the components craft at Memory alpha.
Now you have to get the components then convert those into little parts and then craft the weapon but wait it is time gated so you have to wait for x amount of hours or pay dil to get it now.
Thanks but i think I will only do this when I'm bored and when it's timegated I will do something more beneficial like help my fleet out.
NO TO ARC
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
All I wanted to see changed in crafting was more items to craft and the removal of the unreplicated items (or whatever they are called) that cost dlithium. I had max out crafting of more then a few toons but stopped using it when they made it a dlithium sink.
After all the unreplicated items where put in for a dlithium sink but we have too many of those now. That is why I don't touch the current crafting system and why I will not touch this one. Come on devs, you can't be that thick not to see this problem.
Someone asked for this so here are some quick and dirty hard numbers from my time crafting under the new system.
With 600 being the standard XP received per hour (no matter what you craft ..other than the special items.. it comes out to 600xp per hour).
Here is the number of hours or XP to level up to 10th.
0 to 1st = 0.05 or 30xp
1st to 2nd = 0.38 or 260xp
2nd to 3rd = 16.23 or 10,000xp
3rd to 4th = 33.33 or 30,000xp
4th to 5th = 30 or 48,000xp
5th to 6th = 34 or 68,400xp
6th to 7th = 42 or 93,600xp
7th to 8th = 45 or 120,600xp
8th to 9th = 48 or 149,400xp
9th to 10th = 51 or 180,000xp
The above is if you don't use dilithium to "finish now". You also need to add the hours together to get a total time for going from 1st level to 10th in just that one school (in this case 300 hours).
Don't sound too bad ..right? Just under 13 days and you could be level 10!
Lets look at the numbers going from level 11 to 15.
Finally.. you are level 10 and can make all the components, but you want to be able to make the special items from this school, so you need to get to level 15.
10th to 11th =120 or 252,000xp
11th to 12th = 135 or 333,000xp
12th to 13th = 150 or 423,000xp
13th to 14th = 165 or 522,000xp
14th to 15th = 180 or 630,000xp
So 1050 total hours into crafting (if you don't "finish now") you are able to craft the special items. That's nearly 44 days if you keep on top of things and can manage the materials required to keep it moving.
You decide to max out the school but level 16 requires a hefty price, what most games call a "HELL LEVEL" It costs 420 hours just to go from 15 to 16!
15th to 16th = 420 or 882,000xp
16th to 17th = 450 or 1,152,000xp
17th to 18th = 480 or 1,440,000xp
18th to 19th = 510 or 1,746,000xp
19th to 20th = 540 or 2,070,000xp
After 3450 hours (just under 144 days) and a minimum of 103,500 materials (3450 hourly projects consisting of 6 components per item with each component requiring 5 materials) you have mastered your first school.
Congratulations!
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
Comments
So that's not cool.
Yup, this, and the inability to reverse-engineer technology (deconstructing, etc in other MMOs) for XP and maybe some materials... those are the reasons I truly dislike the current system. Not a fan of the tiles, and really not a fan of the doffing getting caught in the UI crossfire, but the Palked school of design (Dumb Luck) is my biggest issue with the revamp as it stands.
So, to make this crafting system viable from my perspective:
1) Finish the promised [Mod] customization. I don't care about crafting loot drops for myself, but I'd be willing to grind to be able to make the things I actually want.
2) Allow for reverse-engineering of technology. If you find a nice, high tech version of something, why can't you take it apart to see how it works and learn something in the process? [EDIT*] There have been continued patent violations rulings concerning UIs in recent years that reflect that this is still a viable method of acquiring, duplicating, and occasionally advancing technology. While I don't expect disassembling a Phaser Beam Array Mk III to be worth much crafting XP, taking apart a Polarized Tetryon Beam Array Mk XI or Rapid Reload Transphasic Torpedo Launcher Mk XI should be both possible and rewarding as both have special features not available on conventional munitions. Plus, it serves to remove EC's from the economy as anything broken down can't be sold to a vendor.
Just those two and I'll be okay with the new system. I'd still dislike replacing the ~5s progress bar in the current system with timers measured in hours in the new system (with added Finish Now "feature"), the bulky and inefficient UI, the overflow of said UI into doffing, the loss of Clusters and resulting introduction of further inefficiencies to doffing ("Scimitarding" to the top of sector space is going to be irritating), the massive time suck that has been added (making components + long timers + farming materials in the new system vs progress bar + farming materials in the old system), sending helper monkeys (I mean doffs) to do the crafting instead of DIY, etc... but all of that would be tolerable if I could actually make what I wanted and reverse engineer loot drops.
There is good in the new system. I like the addition of the separate inventory tab to contain crafting materials, I like the ability to make relevant equipment, I like the unique [Mods] and items that are being tinkered with... but the thing I like most is that it's still not even into the beta version yet. The chance to provide feedback before the system is finalized, the ability to say why it doesn't meet my minimum requirements, those are things we haven't gotten the opportunity to do in previous seasons/expansions. I still remember the loss of dilithium and loot from the STFs, and that it took a surprisingly long time to put back anything approaching what was there beforehand... despite feedback from players testing on Tribble. This being released so early gives the devs time to actually respond to concerns, and also serves as a learning experience to them and us.
In the future, maybe the devs will post not that "Season 9.5 will be on Tribble soon and will be live in late July" (or whatever is being tested), but instead that an alpha version will be available for testing and feedback. Similarly, maybe we can take the WIP notice in the Tribble Patch Notes and accept that what we are seeing needs feedback, but isn't what will show up on Holodeck regardless of the feedback provided. Maybe it's overly optimistic, but it would be nice if this turns out to be a new process of game system design that actually asks, "What do you want out of this?" and uses our answers to provide it. I want to appreciate the effort put into S9.5.
[*EDIT] Removed a reference to early anatomical research in Scotland; that was kind of dark, so you can look up the details on your own if you choose. It does refer to taking things apart to see how they work, though.
There are differing opinions going on in this thread, and I like hearing both sides of the coin. Each side has an argument that I honestly get, and it's helped me think about my opinions and what's going on.
Clusters: I used to farm samples in there all the time before unreplicatable materials were introduced; that's when I stopped crafting completely. Before then, I crafted all the time and was maxed. But samples were the only reason why I ever into them; I farmed everything in space and never actually did missions. Their removal does not affect my gameplay in any way. With that being said, I don't think it's ever a good idea to remove something that customers still use without having a viable replacement (that's preferably better than before). I also really like the idea of having the clusters be Foundry maps.
Their removal makes me hope that with X2 there is will be something more exploration-related coming (Delta quadrant) that is going to replace them, so I'm personally not up in arms about it. But I still think it's an overall poor decision to make, provided they had announced whether or not something was going to replace them before removing them. I get NDA's and secrecy, but I honestly don't buy "install size" either. There are other reasons...which won't really be revealed to us until they want us to know.
The only way I could buy the install size argument is if X2 is going to be HUGE.
Bottom line: although it doesn't personally affect me, it's not a smart business move. Communication with customers is key, and Cryptic has definitely been a mixed bag in that department. I'm hopeful that their removal will be followed by something better in X2, but that remains to be seen.
Dilithium/Crafting: I don't mind spending money on dilithium, as long as I have direct control over what I'm receiving in exchange for that dilithium (and what I'm receiving is worth my money). Cryptic has said modifiers will come later, just not in 9.5. Okay, I can live with that...provided they actually come, and not at some distant point in the future. I don't mind waiting until X2, but leaving it in a modifier-less state for a longer period of time means Cryptic has to wait longer to make money off me in crafting.
If what I heard in the podcast is true and this really is an "alpha", that should have been communicated either before the release of the build on Tribble, or in conjunction with the release. I believe that the playerbase would have been much for forgiving if they had known that. Waiting to tell us that until after the negative reaction smells too much like damage control. Since we do have some time until it's officially released, I'm cautiously optimistic about this actually being an "alpha" and that changes will be made based on our feedback. But again, whether or not that actually ends up being true remains to be seen.
My character Tsin'xing
I agree. But that hasn't always proven true.
EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I'm not a hater. I'm also not a fanboy, either. I'm somewhere in between; that position can fluctuate depending upon a lot of different factors. In which direction that position will move is dependent upon what happens in the near future.
when implemented it will add no value to the game. as of right now it's better to keep the old system. yes the old system is a glorified shop but at least you know what you'll be getting up ahead.
it's not all terrible the ui is good, the approach is kinda good and using doff was the right thing to do.
however since i have little to no control over the outcome it's not a crafting system. you just put materials in and a semi-random item drops out that is more or less how a slots machine functions.
it's only generating semi-random loot for an alternative price. if it was a true crafting system i'd have full control over the outcome. the crafting system should functionally much more closely resemble that of ESO or GW2.
when crafting items we need to be able to control the following factors
- Item Type
- MK
- Rarity
- Modifiers
right now i can only control the item type. Several MKs cannot be selected but at least there is limited control over that. Rarity is determined by a dice roll by the system i can influence the odds but in the end have no control.modifiers is where crafting should shine but i can't even control it.
custom making items should be the corner stone of crafting. that would probably make crafted items more popular that found ones. but by allowing us to change modifier and deconstruct them for crafting materials this should not be a problem.
change crafting to
my true concern here is that you can reach level 20 in a school of crafting and then still get a white quality item because of a bad roll by the system that you have no control over!
that can happen It's specifically sated that chances will never be 100%.
actually some people have been saying that the crafting I want is just a shop. I've been giving that some thought and concluded that it's true. crafting can't even be anything else.
Crafing is to a EC/Dilitium shop what a Tailor is to a fashion shop. both are shops that sell cloths but only the tailor crafts them to perfectly fit you.
only by controlling every aspect can you tailor make the items for yourself and your build. that the hallmark of a truly great crafting system. the one that when you fully master it will allow you to tailor make items.
as of right now I don't see that happen, actually I see us getting a system that the furthest removed from that as it can be.
it's actually already implied in the very word that you shouldn't be relying on random roll but still you do
First of all it's not even a crafting system! It's just a dumb game system that's nothing more than a glorified slots machine.
second the "special items" you hope will be the saving the saving grace are messed up to.
Second, the best rpg crafting systems that exists can be found in "Dragon Age", "Diablo II", and "Neverwinter Nights".
When I think of crafting systems, the first thing that comes to mind is 'weapon and gear customization'. Within the "Dragon Age" series, you gather or buy various sets of artifacts and runes. Players use the runes to enhance the functionality of certain gear. While the rune drops are random, player can buy specific ones from shops. Players have full control over the outcome.
"Star Trek: Online's" crafting system, as you know, relies too much upon fate.
My suggestions:
(1) Failed attempts at making a certain level item would not be consequential. Instead of players losing precious resources, the system should return them to the crafter.
(2) Customizations should not be permanent. Players should have the ability to remove artifacts freely, so they can test various types of customizations.
(3) Crafting items should solely rely upon skill. Within the layout of the character sheet, players should find a third section dedicated to crafting. Instead of creating a bloated system, the crafting skills can fall below the ground ones. Space, ground, and crafting. As a player moves up to level fifty, the individual should have the option to add points to the crafting section. Other words, once a player gets to levels 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, and 50, the individual will get a specific number of points to level a chosen specialization.
(4) Since players have to buy and/or discover crafting artifacts, the cost to create an item should be 50-55% lower than market value. Instead of charging people 20,000 dilithium for a crafted item, the price to buy them should hover around 9,000 to 10,000 dilithium. 9,000 to 24,000 dilithium is the current market value of rep, fleet, and dilithium store items. Why would players need to pay 100% for a crafted item, which they have to put together themselves? Players are doing all of the work.
(5) Place a price cap on lower level crafting resources on the exchange. Since entry level players are limited in resources, they need an affordable alternative to mission drops. I am referring to the common, uncommon, rare, and very rare resources, which are needed to craft MK I - MK IX items.
(6) Make crafted items 'bound to account on equip'.
(7) Limit timegates from one to two hour intervals.
(8) Allow multiple same level items to be crafted at the same time.
(9) If Cryptic is going to remove the clusters, I would make an entire sector devoted to resource gathering. Players get to co-op or solo missions in a sector, which contains at least eight to ten different mini maps. You can also add a few 'open door' (not open world) PvP maps. 'Open Door' = No queue.
Everyone wins.
Level 21 character could not do the crafting at all. Even though I had the ability to do the material mini-game, I could not keep what I won. The R&D Storage Tab had no blocks in it to store the material in. And I couldn't put the materials in normal storage either. SO I wasted my time with the material gain. The funny thing is that I could look at the R&D DOff Tab and look at what I can craft.
SO I hoped onto the level 50 character and it can do all of the R&D stuff. I found it annoying that when I went to craft a beam weapon, if I selected a Mk level I didn't have the materials to do, there wasn't a back button to change the Mk. I found this incredibly difficult and time consuming to exit and then re-enter the crafting block for that weapon. I also would like to see a way where we can state a quatity of components to build and a quantity of weapons to build. I also would like for the jobs to autocomplete instead of having to go back and click a button to get the stuff. It's very annoying and interferes with playing the game itself.
I also noticed that the DOff interface had changed. And the only thing that I have a problem with is the fact that the commendation exp are not grouped together and clearly marked as such. If I only want to do Military missions I have to waste time looking at each mission and figure out the rewards to see if it gives that kind of exp.
That's my first run through it. More later as I try it out further.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
You mean you can't search by department heads anymore?!? gah.....
You can search by your department heads. But you can't search by COmmendations. SO in the list you might see a military followed by a science then followed by diplomatic. No ordering of the comendation exp you are going to get.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
Not quite that bad. Pretty much everything about crafting and the doff UI has gotten negative feedback from me, with a couple exceptions... and I can still find my posts [EDIT] other than the one referencing Right Said Fred that added nothing to the actual conversation beyond a little humor; that one deserved to go, I'm ashamed of even remembering that song :P [/EDIT]. I think the distinction that CaptainSmirk is trying to make is that: you can provide feedback; you cannot insult the devs or other forum users. I have seen a few posts that were insulting kicking about on both sides of the discussion, and they're still there; the posts I have seen disappear contained actual insults. Basically, avoid ad hominem arguments and you should be fine.
(Please correct me if I'm wrong CaptainSmirk)
I for one like very, very little about the new system... and that is by far outweighed by what makes the game worse (from my perspective). For me, the random chance and inability to reverse engineer technologies are what tips the scales to make the new system (both crafting and the doffing UI collateral damage) as it stands a waste of developer resources. That does not mean I dislike the devs. There is a difference, so I tell said devs what I dislike about the new system in the hopes that it can be made better. I don't insult the devs, because they are the ones that might just fix it before it comes to Holodeck.
"Explore strange new worlds and seek out new life and new civilizations in a vast, expanding universe."
"...our designers can focus less on a games nuts and bolts and more on creating a game that captures Star Treks essence, guaranteeing that both longtime fans of Star Trek and people new to the universe will feel at home."
I'm logging into Tribble now, to double check what I've heard here...but if these forums are correct, I'd suggest a sit-down with the marketing folks.
The truth can be found somewhere between what marketing says and some of the complaints made by players...it's an internal truth, do you enjoy the game? Nobody can tell you if you do or do not...only you can know whether you do.
Yes, I realize that corporations like timelines and hard deadlines and "drop-dead" dates.
But this is a QoL update for us. Make the shipping date "when it's ready" and define "ready" as not getting any more bug reports except extreme corner cases, and a large cross-section of us are happy. (I'd never suggest "most" or "all" of us being happy; this is the forums. You could ship gold bars to all our houses and SOMEBODY would complain about the color of the delivery truck.)
Yes. You will get criticism for not giving a date. Yes, you will still have some people who don't like it, because they've decided they aren't going to ahead of time. Yes, a bug will poke its ugly green head up out of the code somewhere. But a smooth rollout, no next-day "oh s&^$" patches, and the usual "Cryptic f^$%s everything up" crew being silenced would be a pretty decent definition of success, at least in my opinion. Isn't that worth giving up the traditional notion of a ship date?
Please don't be rude and call your fellow players stupid and ungrateful. Players work hard at whatever their jobs are each day too. And have a love of video games and with this game likely Star Trek as well. So they get home and fire up the computer and want to enjoy the game they paid money to play and it ends up causing frustration instead, they leave feedback. Sometimes they vent first. Keep that in mind. They play like you do. And they care about the game too.
I'm not into crafting in mmorpgs. I don't buy crafted items or bother with it. What has been done feels very much to me like what they did in Champions Online, and everyone I know, the biggest SG (nearly the entire original playerbase) in that game all quit when they altered the crafting system. Pulsewave, Kenpo all those people who made champions great and 1000s of guides for Champions, all left to play Marvel Heroes now. It sucks to be driven out by changes like this but it's hard to back a game that isn't the game you initially liked. It's like I loved the original Star Wars films but I don't get behind the newer prequels. Star Wars falling apart is what got me looking for something new which was Star Trek. Old but still new to me and then this game came along and here I am.
I hope they fix whatever the problem is or just scrap this and do something useful like make a system where I don't have to erase my bridge officers memory of being schooled in an ability and replace it with a new memory of learning a new ability. It's annoying.
Or how about how limited the c store is with clothing we can wear? Why can't we wear this with that or why can't these hairstyles on romulans be on vulcans so we have some variety for once?
Sorry to go off topic there, I am almost checked out on this game though with the traits and now this crafting overhaul. The only reason I play Cryptic games is they are really casual mmos, for a modern world were people have lives, other responsibilities and just lots of things going on, and can't devote the same kinds of hours to mmos as were originally being devoted half a decade ago. I love Star Trek Online and the developers seemed great here but it just feels like they are losing touch lately. No disrespect intended to the devs or any players.
The Mk of the items you craft is fixed, the quality and [Mods] are variable. This is why the promised [Mod] customization is so good; even if you get random [Mods] from your crafted items, if you can customize those [Mods] after the fact it would be okay... except the items you craft still have variable quality, so it may take you a few cycles to get something worth customizing.
The variability is a big part of why the dilithium costs and timers are such a gripe; the current dilithium costs could be adjusted as these numbers aren't set in stone yet, and hopefully the [Mod] customization won't add yet more dilithium costs and timers, but the initial costs we see not do not inspire confidence. The "normalizing" of dilithium and EC costs are not exactly inspiring either, since a ship has 6-8 weapons and only one deflector, engine, warp core, and shield each; plus, folks change payload more often that the other bits.
While I don't object to the monetization of the system via direct (and reasonable) dilithium costs or even by requiring a doff of equivalent quality to what your are making, variable outcomes and the time gate extortion are significant detriments when compared to the current system. Drop the dilithium from the crafting or ditch the timer that replaces the current progress bar, and the system would be okay. Give us the ability select [Mods] or finish the promised customization of [Mods], and it would be even better. Give us a UI designed for use in-game when we are in-game, in addition to the other changes, and I will praise the crafting revamp in my signature so everyone can see how great crafting is
I would like to see a more gradual climb to the next level, so that it doesn't seem so steep a climb from level to level. At least till 15. After 15 you can make it steep so that only really dedicated hardcore master crafters pursue those ranks.
SO far no dilithium costsd. But Once I hit those points I will probably not craft. I don't collect dilithium that fast. I never max out my refining limit daily except on rare occasions. I am just a casual gamer. If it's going to cost me thousands of Dilithium to craft mark XI and XII gear, well, I guess Rep gear and drops will just have to due for me. I don't have the time to collect dilithium and have fun at the same time. So I focus on the fun and not worry about the dilithium. Please consider this when you are assigning out the dil costs.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
Be aware, that the quality is control also by skill level. The higher your skill the less likely you will get whites. With eventually the whites dropping and greens dropping and just blues and purples are made. ANd you can further modify the odds by having a better quality doff and getting some sort of modifying bits you can purchase from the c-store.
So if you have the right skill and doffs you can make it heavily favor getting blues or purples. But still it's just a chance for a purple.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
You have more of a chance to get white and green at max level than purple once this goes live I see very little reason to sink Dil in this at the moment and it feels to much like a farmville game where you add x amount to speed up the crafting. Crafting used to be quick and simple. Get a schematic get the components craft at Memory alpha.
Now you have to get the components then convert those into little parts and then craft the weapon but wait it is time gated so you have to wait for x amount of hours or pay dil to get it now.
Thanks but i think I will only do this when I'm bored and when it's timegated I will do something more beneficial like help my fleet out.
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
After all the unreplicated items where put in for a dlithium sink but we have too many of those now. That is why I don't touch the current crafting system and why I will not touch this one. Come on devs, you can't be that thick not to see this problem.
Thanks for posting this. You just saved me a ton of time. Another part of STO I can totally skip.