Not looking to good so far really is it! But comments like this isn't helping so down to brass tacks, these have probably been already mentioned but the more people report back underscores how much everyone feels about it:
1. Picking up traces from missions and mining go into the Inventory tab instead of the R&D tab which means they don't register for the crafting unless you can get to a bank to swap them over.
2. You need to rename the 'Catalyst' to something else like 'Reactant' I - like a lot of people who play this game - did chemistry in school to know that a catalyst enables a reaction to take place but ISN'T lost in the process and can be REUSED, however a reactant is lost.
3. The DOff's when listed often don't have anything to do with the assignment and it isn't readily obvious that they can be changed as even though pressing the assign button can change them it implies that you want to use this officer to do the assignment, and while using a purple advisor might be good for foreign dignitaries I wouldn't trust them to produce a warp core! :eek:
4. More of a question this one, but when I clicked on the Catalyst box it came up with "No Duty Officer or Item to Submit". If there are plans to use DOff's as catalysts then it is strongly advisable to change the idea of loosing them afterwards as no one wants to loose DOff's especially if the outcome is a random one.
General Observations
I know from the release notes that this system is still a work in progress, but I have to say some of the things I have seen so far worry me a great deal especially as this is something a lot of people have been wanting for a long while, if you think the backlash is bad with just a few people testing it, wait till the rest of the player base get their paws on it!
With the cost of the items and the time it takes to make it, no one is going to want a random outcome, if I want a purple Mk XII dual beam bank and am going to invest the time and effort into not only crafting an item but gathering the materials and components then I want a guaranteed out come, and I think this is why a lot of people are also asking for the choice of mods as well (I don't know if this is something in the works or not).
If you - the devs - are intent in there being a random outcome to things then you should remove ALL the dilithium requirements, with the fact that the 'Explore Strange New Worlds' has gone this now means 20% (I get around 7k in dill a day and 'Explore' gave 1440 Dill ((1440/7000)*100=20%) of my daily income has gone as well. So spending that amount of dilithium on a project involves a lot of work for players like me. Work I am willing to put in but not for a random outcome!!!
In general it is nice to see Cryptic making this effort but I think it may have been better to sit down with the player base and ask "What do you want in this?" rather than doing all this work and then getting this negativity in reply. I don't understand why polls aren't used on this forum and more engagement between devs and the player base takes part especially when it concerns what is potentially a big chunk of the game.
Scenario:
Cryptic: "We heard that you want this..."
Player: "Thanks does it have this..?"
Cryptic: "It's now on Tribble for you to test..."
Player: "Thanks but it doesn't do this and that is wrong and what about the other..."
Cryptic: "We have updated this..."
Player: "But it still doesn't do this what we asked for..."
Cryptic: "Yay everyone this is now live on holodeck..."
Playerbase: "But it doesn't do this that and the other..."
Player: *facepalm* "We told you about that on Tribble a month ago..."
Cryptic: "We did this for you, but you are never happy, why do we bother..."
No ones happy!
Instead you could have...
Crypitic: "We understand you want this, so for the next 4 weeks let us know what you would like for this on the forum...use a poll with some choices ask players to vote, solicit additional choices
Playerbase feedback...
Cryptic: "Ok from what you have told us you want X,Y, and Z. X is possible, Y we would have to look into because of A,B and C, and Z isn't possible even if Taco was standing on his head at the time!
Time Passes
Crypitic: "Ok you asked for this, here it is..."
Player: "Okay can this be tweaked! and that tightened up?"
Cryptic: "How about now?"
Player "Perfect..."
Cryptic: "Yay everyone this is now live on holodeck..."
Etc.
There will always be people who complain but it will be a lot less with the second approach than the first!
So sorry for the negativity and please believe me the work everyone puts into this game is appreciated but this is something a lot of have wanted for a long while and feel very strongly about and as it stands at the moment means it will be used about as much as the old system, possibly even less so.
Cryptic: "We heard that you want this..."
Player: "Thanks does it have this..?"
Cryptic: "It's now on Tribble for you to test..."
Player: "Thanks but it doesn't do this and that is wrong and what about the other..."
Cryptic: "We have updated this..."
Player: "But it still doesn't do this what we asked for..."
Cryptic: "Yay everyone this is now live on holodeck..."
Playerbase: "But it doesn't do this that and the other..."
Player: *facepalm* "We told you about that on Tribble a month ago..."
Cryptic: "We did this for you, but you are never happy, why do we bother..."
I may be totally wrong, but it seems that the new Doff UI is a side effect of porting the Neverwinter proffessions to STO. If this is the case, than crafting IS a variation of Doff system.
As for feedback.
1. Dilitium costs must go away. Paying 20k dilitium for a Mk XII item of unknown rarity and modifiers is ridiculous.
2. Refining approx. 10 pcs of every particle trace did not render enough rare resources for creation a MK X item.
3. The "Finish Now" button should have a confirmation window. It is big, it can be clicked by accident. Also, it is active even for projects that take a few seconds to complete. This is low.
Okay, I've spent several hours on Tribble now, trying to make headway with the throw-a-triple-six-to-get-something-I-actually-want crafting system. In addition to all the bad points I've already mentioned: Where are the purple materials?
Y'see, I converted a couple of huge piles of the old particles and particle traces to the new materials. I got more and smaller piles of random materials, many of which did not have the same quality as the things I converted. Where can I get some more materials? Not the star clusters, they've been removed, along with the exploration missions which are THE WHOLE POINT OF STAR TREK! There aren't very many available to get from replaying missions (which I have now done up to Task Force Hippocrates (the one immediately before the Spectres storyline starts)). So that only leaves DOff assignments. *Sigh*. Okay, 30 minutes, 45 minutes, one hour, two hours, or four hours, to get a handful of materials when before I could travel to a star cluster that offered the appropriate-level of particle trace, and scan a couple of anomalies to get the same amount - a task which took minutes!
Okay, fine DOff assignments. Oh look, the materials I'm getting have no correspondence to the title of the mission. Still, it's a work in progress, they probably haven't got round to matching such simple things up yet - like they haven't got round to putting Components in sensible crafting categories (Why does a torpedo need a focusing lens? Why does it need an ejector system?) Oh, hey, I've gone through the HIDEOUS new DOff UI and run every material-gathering mission I can find, looks like at least one from each level of particles. Oh look, a couple of them have given me Critical Success, has that actually improved the number and/or quality of the crating materials I receive? No it hasn't!
Before: DOff mission to collect technical schematics particles - four hours, five technical schematics received on a success, ten technical schematics and two random particle traces received on a critical success.
After: DOff mission to collect random crafting materials - four hours, six materials of random type and quality received on a success, twelve materials of random type and quality received on a critical success. None more than blue quality in either case.
FFS Cryptic, if you want me to tie up a pair of purple DOffs for four hours, I had better get a pre-specified reward (NOT a random one); and if I get critical success, I want the reward to be as good as possible. Blue-quality crafting materials are NOT as good as purple-quality crafting materials, so why aren't I getting them from critical successes?
On current showing, Cryptic, if the DOff UI and crafting system currently on Tribble goes to Holodeck without thorough re-working and improvement, I will stop crafting completely, and I will only continue to DOff in order to get unique rewards (Unforgiven of Ferasa/Caitian Diaspora, Ghosts of the Jem'Hadar, and Project Chrysalis chains, and the star cluster DOffs if you keep them available), and the Transwarp destinations for Diplomacy/Marauding.
You are killing the game by continuing on this path
I'll throw my hat into the ring. The randomness combined with dilithium requirements is a terrible idea.
Not only that but removing the clusters is just as bad or even worse. You are forcing people who want to craft into re-running episodes, foundries for mats. A mind numbing time sink with quite frankly, very little payoff.
My opinion, not that this matters is to seriously reconsider this if not all out scrap this plan.
As presented currently on tribble, this crafting system is flat out awful. One of the worst I've seen in an mmo.
Okay so normally I don't like to be critical on new content. But this.... oh gods the facepalming and the throbbing in my fingers at this point. Arthritis from hell trying to convert all those traces from back logs of them.
The new crafting system as it stands... is well just too cumbersome. There are many aspects that have potential after being refined. The skill trees, while understandable that you mixed crafting parts into other trees so as not to get people constantly doing just one thing and keeping it spread out. Though this approach does have its fall backs. The main one being how much back tracking you must do to get all the items you need to just make one thing you want. A simple work around to this would be
Select the Item you want to make, (you don't have the items needed. Okay Auto craft to get.) Worth waiting a little bit while that happens. Go fly around, do an stf or something. (Or just do away with all the middle stuff.) And let us use the raw materials we already have stockpiled. I'm sure that the engineering department along with the quartermaster of the ship could handle making a few things from raw materials without you having to tell them you need to make this or that first.
Please for the love of the Great Bird of the Galaxy do not change the Doff ui... the current one works just fine, is not an eye sore or cumbersome. IT works no need to fix, maybe refine a little or polish up. A new feature like a promotion system for your doffs that have been around on your ship for ages. (Once promoted cant be traded) so as not to flood the exchange with them. That could be great.
Okay so the little perks for getting your crafting skill up is.. well cute. Though could be improved. It would make more sense to have special benefits that are only offered through the crafting system to be added to the items themselves. This would give a the new system a good draw.... like (example though I would love to see actually work. Mk XII VR turret, new proc 1% chance to trigger cannon rapid fire 1 for all turrets.) Little things like that or other new traits to weapons would make this system worth the bloody effort.
As it stands from testing it and nearly braking my mouse and fingers dealing with conversions and the multilayer steps needed to make anything. It just not worth the time, the aggravation or the cost.
Space is vast, it's wonderful and maddening. Yet in that madness is some of the greatest beauty I have ever seen.
I hear that testing is up on Tribble, so I copy my max level crafter over there to check things out, and I am very disappointed.
In the old system, I would gather traces and then craft small things until I get enough experience to craft what I want. There was a slight cost (in Dil) for the better stuff, but that is to be expected. I was actually able to get one of my three crafting captains up to full XP in less than an hour, thanks in part to my Fleets Bank full of material.
In the new system, I have to use a junior officer (DOff) to actually do the crafting for me, no sense of accomplishment here.
I actually spent 15 minutes just trying to figure out how to convert my old material to the new stuff and then about 30 minutes actually clicking to convert. I'll repeat here what everyone else has said: "Sliders, please!"
While I didn't have a lot of materials I was able to get up to Level 2 on Beams. Trying to maximize XP received I crafted the minor parts then created a MK II Antiproton Dual Beam Bank, for which I got a purple!
I then tried crafting MK VI AP DBB (everything higher required components that I didn't have), and was able to create 3 Commons and 1 Uncommon. All of this took about 90 minutes.
Since this was Tribble, I actually used the Dil to speed things up but if this was Holodeck, I would just wait it out. It's too hard for me to come up with Dil for the amount of time I can actually play the game.
I don't play a lot of MMOs so I'm not too familiar with the crafting systems but here are my observations:
1) I actually like that I have to create a sub-part to create what I'm after, but since most require several items, make it where I can craft multiple items at once.
2) Even better, if I'm missing sub-parts, give me to option of clicking the missing piece(s) and it automatically going to that crafting screen. i.e. I click a MK II AP Beam Array which needs two Focusing Lens and two Targeting Interface. I click Focusing Lens and it takes me to the Focusing Lens crafting interface.
3) Everything seems too pricey for the result. 3 Common and 5 Uncommon parts to make a MK VI AP Dual Beam Bank?
4) Generally, I am not a very lucky player and this system seems to require lots of it.
5) To repeat what a lot have asked: Let me craft the exact item I want, not a random piece of equipment that I can get as a drop in most missions.
The conversion store needs sliders to purchase more than one material at a time, otherwise people with lots of materials already to hand will find conversion quite tedious.'.
Definitely agree with needing sliders. You can hold CTRL to bypass the "do you want to buy this" dialog, but sliders would be so much more convenient.
While on the topic of sliders, it would be REALLY NICE to have qty sliders in the crafting assignments as well. If I need to make 10 EPS conduits, it takes a LONG TIME to queue up 10 separate tasks to do this. A slider that adjusts the qty, updating the r&d supplies needed to complete x qty of that item would be PERFECT. Of course, the task completion time / dil buy-out price would scale accordingly.
Crafting is making something you want, not a gamble what you get.
If cryptic doesn't think like that, i can craft you some new cars will cost you $ 100.000,00 but you can get a ferari (or a fiat panda)
I've copy and pasted this from what I said on the patch notes, but I have expanded on it so here goes;
1) The dilithium cost is extortionate. There is no way it should cost this much dil for a gamble at something that may or may not be any good.
2) We can't even choose the modifiers for the items, which is pretty lame, but I would like to know why because surely I would be able to tell my crew what I expect them to tune the equipment for....
3) Might be an idea for when you max a school, but could we have the opportunity to reverse-engineer technology we pick up in the field to add them to the list of stuff we can craft? For example, what if I pick up a Voth Sniper Rifle, could I reverse-engineer this to get that type of antiproton energy type and the look of the weapon?
You could even make it so we can get some rare procs from stuff in-game, like the psi proc off the lirpa from Hearts and Minds, just as an example, or even polarised disruptor energy types. It would add a dilithium and ec sink to get people collecting stuff to add to their repertoire.
4) Why are there no melee weapons in the ground weapons school? That seems rather short-sighted not to include a popular fighting method.
5) What is going to happen to the Alien Artefact console creation mission, because isn't that going to be made rather redundant with this update? Because even if you do level crafting the way it is now, the odds of you getting what you want far outstrip the odds from the alien artefact mission.
6) Is there really much point differentiating beams and cannons when they have a lot of similar stuff between the two schools such as the consoles? Surely it would be better to amalgamate them into one and combine the trait to energy weapon damage in general?
7) It may just be me but two pieces of the aegis set, engine and deflector, don't seem to be available.
8) Do you actually plan to put a tier progression bar at the top of each school so we can see what we unlock as we go along, assuming there is anything to be unlocked? Because at the moment it doesn't look like there is really anything there that is unique, contrary to what D'Angelo told us in his blog.
9) The old doff interface is better, put it back how it was. I know for a fact the pro doffers I know and myself all prefer the old style of it.
10) At present this system doesn't seem very alt friendly, because from the looks of it it is going to take an insane amount of time just to level one school on one character. Isn't there going to be a way of lightening the load for other characters after completing a school?
11) I absolutely in no way endorse timers that cost dilithium to reduce the cooldown of a project. Remove them!
12) The way this is now, I feel comfortable predicting that this is a system only those with considerable time and resources are going to get through with any meaningful progress, and I feel many players simply won't be able to get through this in any meaningful manner. People need to feel they're making progress and at present it feels too heavy going for that to be the case.
13) Apparently there was meant to be a few ultra-rare pieces in the system but they don't seem to be there as far as I can tell. Also, I have yet to see how this system is supposed to be competitive in any way shape or form, because at present I'd be better off running missions until I get a good piece of gear, selling it then buying precisely what I want.
14) I did figure the system out fairly quick myself, however I can imagine someone else might have issues and so there really needs to be a tutorial. Yet this is minor compared to the glaringly awful issues the system already has.
Any decent crafting system should be about making what you want, knowing what you're going to get bar the rarity maybe and knowing you won't be wasting a lot of resources. This system doesn't remotely achieve this, and frankly I'm finding it hard to believe someone actually thought that the system as it stands on tribble is actually any good.
I will, as the system is now, point blank refuse to use it if it goes live. I know some people are getting the feeling this game is heading more and more towards a more Asian-style grindfest MMO and that's putting them off, and certainly this crafting 'revamp' has only strengthened those feelings considerably.
It's a shame really, because recently it felt like stuff was improving, albeit slowly, but now I'm not so sure if this is really the way the game is going....
EDIT: I've probably missed a few points, but that is a fair number of them, and I hope someone reads this and listens.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
All I see is another reputation, but with an overly complicated way to level it up.
As long as dilithium or any other real money currency has any part in it, I wont bother.
My main chars are maxed out on all other reputations, they also have access to a maxed out Fleet starbase, so can get Mk12 VR quality equipment any time they want to.
Why would I bother with crafting to gamble as much dilithium on maybe getting the equivalent??
The founding idea behind crafting, is that "time" being the main currency. It should take ages to max out crafting, and complicated in that you need to find the different materials needed to craft said item.
Dilthium or any other real money currency has no place in crafting at all, period.
Instead, Cryptic logic suggests that we should be charged: Time to level+time to make+Dilithium cost to make+(optional)Dilithium cost to finish quicker+random drop! :rolleyes:
What it should be: Time to level+time to make+(optional)EC cost to finish quicker+random drop....
Most veterans know that once something hits Tribble, that is how it will be on live..
But, on the rare occasions, throwing our hands in the air and calling Cryptic out on their horrible greedy ideas, sometimes changes something..
Its a balance of profit. IF they realise they'll loose more money from lost customers than their greedy idea can bring in, they sometimes, very rarely, relent.
But that's unusual as talking donkey.
They do this to the point it defies common sense. For example, if they really needed money, they could just put some new items in the Cstore.
Like Quad cannons for the missing 3 energy types, Wide angle torpedoes, etc. Would even need less effort from their part.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
There are some big Problems with the new Crafting:
1. Random-Quality and Random Modificators
When I can build an Item I will choose, what Quality and what modificator it should be have. I know me and my luck. We are not friends. I pay 15K Dillit
You would be amazingly lucky to achieve such a thing, since common items don't have modifiers. Such a bizarre curio would almost certainly be worth something to a collector.
He meant "common" by "non purple" I think.
To be honest, whites, greens and blues ARE common and easy to find.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
I guess saying that the new Crafting System sucks and should go back to the drawing board isn't much of a feedback... Oh well, so here are some random thoughts.
1. It's pointless at this point
Technical aspects aside, I've got to ask - why...? Why do we need such a crafting system which basically revolves around grinding materials to rank up in yet another leveling system? We've already got Reputations and Starbases to develop. This new Crafting is nothing but a pointless layer of the Doff system, with artificial timers and barriers added on top. It's like you've just wanted to add yet another grind for the sole sake of grinding (and monetizing), but forgot to include anything actually worth grinding for.
2. It's an expensive crane machine, not crafting
Tons of crafting materials of various rarities which we need to either grind or buy, plus duty officers, plus ridiculous dilithium costs, plus tons of clicking and waiting hours/days for results. And for what? For a RANDOM QUALITY item with RANDOM MODIFIERS. So if we cannot create an item we actually want or need, and we're not guaranteed we'll end up with the rarity we want, why should we even spend ANY amount of resources on this crafting thing? I'd rather buy myself some reputation weapons with the modifiers I want, or just hope for a random drop.
3. Low level items? What for?
Ok, it's already clear that the new system requires huge amount of materials, dilithium and grind. As a result, it'll take a lot of time to rank up in each individual schools. Probably way more it'll take an average player to reach lvl 50. Do you honestly think such player will have both time and resources to craft himeslf some lower level item? Especially since it'll cost him dilithium he most probably doesn't even have? At least with the current system he can just buy items form the dilithium store. After the revamp he'll not only have to pay, but grind and wait.
So as I've said, crafting is yet another pointless leveling system that'll maybe eventually become useful after reaching max rank, assuming some unique items will be added to it. All the low level stuff is essentially - everybody together now - "pointless!"
4. STO goes mobile
This whole crafting "revamp" just shows that PWE/Cryptic is run by Ferengis. It's your typical mobile gaming business model slapped onto already existing model. Combine it with the earlier point that the whole thing is pointless and you've got yourself a cow-clicker, with your average timers, paywalls, "optional" (paid) benefit items, and a paid ability to shorten the timers. At this point I'm almost certain both the doff system and the crafting system is coming to STO Gateway. And even though I don't mind this fact, I do mind that it's coming in the worst form imagineable - as a cow clicker.
5. Crafting revamped, content removed...
I've already complained about this in another thread. You're "revamping" a piece of system, but at the same time removing a huge portion of playable content in the form of Star Clusters without introducing anything in their place. And I think we all know why - Star Clusters are the best source of anomalies we're getting crafting materials from.
So instead of removing these scannable anomalies to make it more difficult for farmers, you're removing the star clusters altogether... I don't know what you've been smoking that you thought it was a good idea and I honestly believe you should rethink that decission.
So at this point Season 9,5 seems to add a pointless layer of grind while removing a piece of playable content. In a perfect world (pun semi-intended) you would postpone the release of this season, bring star clusters back, and go with the crafting system back to the drawing board. But we all know this isn't gonna happen and you'll release this monstrosity live pretty soon, despite all the negative feedback. As such I honestly hope players will finally lose interest and won't spend any money on this cash-grab, so that you'll eventually come to your senses and start thinking about expanding the actual game in the future, not just your wallets...
XP per level on an exponential-type curve, XP per project flat.
What I mean by XP per project flat, the player gets a flat 600 xp/hour from the "primary" construction projects, things like, for the science school, deflectors and consoles.
To wit: Mk VI item, 600 xp / 1 hour. Mk VIII item, 1200 xp / 2 hours. Mk X, 1800 / 3, Mk XI, 2400 / 4 and Mk XII 3000 / 5.
Especially since Mk VIIIs need "rare" materials, there's little reason to grind the higher tier projects during a long grind session, it's more "cost effective" to pop out piles of VIs and hoard the rare mats till XII and the start of the "lottery" for items with the right mods.
Typically, when there's an exponential type curve on XP needs, there's a scaled project payout system, that's frequently based around the rarity of the inputs.
To demonstrate, things built with common rarity only materials wind up being 600 xp / hour. Once the level-locked things start coming into play that need "rare" materials (aka Mk VIIIs that you have to be at least level 5 for), they start paying 700 xp / hour, and the Mk Xs that can't be touched till level 10, pay 800 xp / hour.
Yes, I know that this could be "semi-abusive", in that an L1 could hit up the exchange for pre-built L10 middle-parts and pop out Mk X components for the higher XP payouts, however, the system is "prebuilt" so that, due to lack of skill, the player has about a 0% chance of getting anything "of value" (they'll craft piles of Mk X whites and maybe the occasional green) till they get to the point of being able to craft the level 10 components themselves...
Also, and it's kind of hard to tell since my tester is an Admiral already, but does the system "level" with the player appropriately? What I'm asking is, if I was a "Science" crafter, would I be consistently building Mk IV blues at Lt Cmdr 5, Mk VIII blues at Cmdr 5, Mk X blues at Capt 5, Mk XIs at the RAUH point, and Mk XIIs at VA? This is taking into account semi-farming for materials and using the exchange to convert "non-science" findings and converting them into "science" findings?
Just a couple of hallmarks of a "thought out" crafting system that I'm not seeing in this one... And I haven't even gotten into my thoughts on the "Cryptic must love lotteries system" that I'm seeing in NWO's crafting (and here, too...)
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Tested with: Klingon, in Space, on the KDF Faction, for ~1 Hour.
Apologist Observations:
Adding a new system to the game costs money. As such I understand that any new mechanic that will be invested in by the Studio needs to generate new income for the game.
Utilizing/converting an existing mechanic already implemented in another Cryptic title makes sense from a business perspective. For example; adapting the Crafting system from NW in STO.
I understand that the Crafting system currently on Tribble is a WIP, and that there could be some elements we have not yet seen. As such, some of the comments below may already have been addressed.
Clearly a lot of work has already gone into this system. and a Crafting revamp has been long overdue for STO. Thank you for taking the time to add (and tweak) this potentially very useful update to the game.
Practical Observations:
Completing an Item (e.g. Beam Array) = Lost item. It is missing from inventory altogether.
Completing a Component, (e.g. Focusing Lens, etc) = Inventory tab instead of R&D tab. Though admittedly, I do not know what is ultimately meant to end up in the R&D tab.
Accessing the Conversion menu (for Old Mats --> New) is currently only possible while I have a material in my Inventory. From there I can convert anything in my Bank. However, once I close my Inventory, *IF* I have already converted the material I used to open the Conversion interface, then I can no longer access the Conversion menu without going to my Bank.
Converting single materials at a click is inefficient and not fun to do.
Material conversion in it's current form is confusing, because all labels in the Conversion interface read simply 'Common', 'Uncommon', or 'Random', instead of clearly stating that material 'A' will be converted to material 'B' (or listing a range of possible outcomes).
The significance of Level vs. Tier is lost, as there is no obvious call out to current Tier in a given 'School' of crafting.
Testing Catalysts is currently a mystery, as there is no explanation as to what they are or how to acquire them.
Moving between the crafting menu of a given School and the list of options from another School is unwieldy. Significant because new users will need to jump back and forth frequently to locate where to craft Components found in one School and required for crafting an Item in another School.
Currently it appears that the least useful DOff is automatically selected for any crafting task.
Aesthetic Observations:
The new DOff interface is less appealing than the old one and looks less Star Trek-like to me. As compared to the old interface.
As mentioned above, Levels vs. Tiers is not clear from the GUI.
Opening the Crafting/R&D interface and using it for the first time is not intuitive based on the graphical representation.
Impressions/Suggestions:
I like that the new Crafting system in STO has some depth to it. It is unfortunate that that depth comes at the cost of random results that may not generate much value for the player when compared to the investment in time and especially resources leveling the system.
Having a larger range of input types makes Crafting more interesting overall. Being able to craft needed items for a given recipe is something many of us have been wanting for a long time. However, between time-gating (Dilithium Sink), and the need for some Components to also require Dilithium to craft, while adding cash store packs of materials, to a process that already requires either a lot of EC or a lot of time scavenging resources, feels like taxes on top of taxes for those without the monetary means to fast-track leveling the system.
Simultaneously, it gives a huge leg up for those players who can 'Afford' to spend real money on leveling their Crafting. Will this make Crafting a viable and/or enjoyable pursuit for the average player?
NOTE: I don't expect Dilithium to be removed from the system, as I understand the need for Cryptic to generate cash to continue development and hosting of the game. However, nearly every system in the game currently relies heavily on Dilithium expenditure. One of the failings of the old Crafting system was adding Dilithium costs to a system that was not competitive with Fleet and Reputation gear. Anecdotally; as a long-time player, I know that many of us stopped crafting when the Dilithium cost to craft outweighed the usefulness of the items.
Using or adapting an existing mechanic from another game makes sense. I also think it is important when doing this to maintain the flavor of the game the system will be used in. e.g. It would be good to make the Crafting system adapted from NW look more like STO.
Being able to convert old Samples and Traces into the new Crafting materials is great, thank you. It would be good to reduce the tedium of making the conversions on our end by:
Giving us a slider to convert stacks of Samples and Traces.
Appropriately labeling which input is going to be converted and what the results will/could be.
Give us a button that opens the Conversion menu. This would allow us to consistently make conversions without having to go to the Bank. Currently we can only do this if we happen to have a Sample or Trace in our Inventory.
Alternately, allow us to right-click on a stack of materials directly from our 'Cargo Bay' in the DOff interface, and open the Conversion interface from that location.
I really like the new Kit system, which incorporates slots and modules. I was looking forward to the Crafting revamp adding similar functionality to other types of gear in-game. I feel that adding slots and modules could go a long way towards making up for the randomness of our crafting results.
It would be great to be able to craft modules for Kits and (hopefully) other gear in game.
Part of the depth of the new Crafting system in STO appears to be found in the need to level more than one 'School' at a time in order to craft items from other Schools. I like this overall, as it may be the first system of this type (in STO) to require a long-term strategy for fully leveling the system. In order for this to be practical it would be nice to have some cross-referencing in our various menus, so that while researching what inputs are needed to craft a given item, the user can see at a glance where missing inputs come from.
Having multiple ways to enhance the quality of a given crafting task via DOff selection and Catalysts is a great idea, as it adds additional depth and strategy to the system. However, currently, it is impossible to tell where Catalysts and UR materials come from.
I like being able to choose for myself which DOff to use on a given crafting task. Having to scroll through a long list of potential DOffs to find the optimum DOff for a given task, however, makes an already cumbersome system less accessible or at least more tedious. Having the best DOff for the job displayed initially, would be a nice improvement.
Finally, speaking as a player who has several Toons at full Crafting in the old system; it would be nice to have some kind of benefit towards the new system. I recognize that there is no clear translation of the old to new system with the addition of Schools and Tiers. Thus I am not really sure how that previous Crafting level would convert. One possibility though; might be to adopt something like what Reputations currently offer for Sponsorship tokens? In fact, Crafting Sponsorship of some kind could be really advantageous to the new system regardless of old system Crafting level.
My two Darseks worth of wisdom and perspective...*Chuckle*...
If you haven't gone onto Tribble and observed things first hand (or at least second hand from a video), you are not providing feedback. You are providing commentary based on hearsay that will get in the way of the Devs gathering and providing feedback.
Please test the new stuff on Tribble, then come back and post. Please keep your replies to the point and on topic. You may have positive and/or negative impressions and that's fine. There is ZERO room for having arguments in this thread.
After this, I will be actively moderating this topic.
~Bluegeek
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
If you haven't gone onto Tribble and observed things first hand (or at least second hand from a video), you are not providing feedback. You are providing commentary based on hearsay that will get in the way of the Devs gathering and providing feedback.
Please test the new stuff on Tribble, then come back and post. Please keep your replies to the point and on topic. You may have positive and/or negative impressions and that's fine. There is ZERO room for having arguments in this thread.
After this, I will be actively moderating this topic.
~Bluegeek
Yes i have test it.
What will you consider a feedback.
We say what we thing a negative and make us not use the revamp, we give suggestion how to change thing (i) give a feedback that i thing may be done i`ts going take some work but i can be made whit out remaking the full system.
The point is so dev need to a improvement ore remaking some aspect (numbers) of it how we thing will not work well ore make player chose that i`ts not worth there time.
I don't really like converting old materials for random new ones. I found it annoying that the interface always chose who I would consider the worst DoFF possible for a mission, and that you can't actually make what you want and have to rely on essentially a random drop table influenced by a doff makes it even worse. I really like crafting, and maxed out both versions of crafting from the game, but I really doubt I'd do much how it is now. More later after I play more with it..
"..and like children playing after sunset, we were surrounded by darkness." -Ruri Hoshino
Yes i have test it.
What will you consider a feedback.
We say what we thing a negative and make us not use the revamp, we give suggestion how to change thing (i) give a feedback that i thing may be done i`ts going take some work but i can be made whit out remaking the full system.
The point is so dev need to a improvement ore remaking some aspect (numbers) of it how we thing will not work well ore make player chose that i`ts not worth there time.
What my incoherent compatriot is trying to say is, we are giving feed back, more then that, we are giving our feed back AND proposing solutions to the issue.
the problem is that the feed back is negative about a system that is truly designed very poorly, a Doff UI that was "improved" for no good reason, and I use improved in quotations because it's not actually any better, in fact it's in many ways and overall worse.
and dilithium instead of unreplicatable materials, now makes crafting a single player game and not a group effort, as it's supposed to be, especially for fleet crafters, this is WHY unreplicatable materials were added into the game to solve this problem, going BACK to dilithium is just another step backwards.
Why can't the crafting system be a more traditional Recipe/material system, where you gather schematics, and materials, either from exploration, STFs, or even just breaking down Vender loot for parts.
With the amount of Shield Arrays, Weapons, Deflector dishes floating around out there, anyone in their right mind would be doing salvage.
But however you get your parts, you should be able to take your stuff, combine it with your recipe and get your item, No slot machine gambling, just get your crafted item, period.
Post edited to remove the more speculative and off-topic comments, in order to demonstrate what I mean by feedback, as solicited by the Devs. ~Bluegeek
What my incoherent compatriot is trying to say is, we are giving feed back, more then that, we are giving our feed back AND proposing solutions to the issue.
the problem is that the feed back is negative about a system that is truly designed very poorly, a Doff UI that was "improved" for no good reason, and I use improved in quotations because it's not actually any better, in fact it's in many ways and overall worse.
and dilithium instead of unreplicatable materials, now makes crafting a single player game and not a group effort, as it's supposed to be, especially for fleet crafters, this is WHY unreplicatable materials were added into the game to solve this problem, going BACK to dilithium is just another step backwards.
Why can't the crafting system be a more traditional Recipe/material system, where you gather schematics, and materials, either from exploration, STFs, or even just breaking down Vender loot for parts.
With the amount of Shield Arrays, Weapons, Deflector dishes floating around out there, anyone in their right mind would be doing salvage.
But however you get your parts, you should be able to take your stuff, combine it with your recipe and get your item, No slot machine gambling, just get your crafted item, period.
Post edited to remove the more speculative and off-topic comments, in order to demonstrate what I mean by feedback, as solicited by the Devs. ~Bluegeek
ofc i`ts for $ for Cryptic ore some one just hit over the head and they will make thing whit $ in there mind. The trick is to hit some kind of balance between the too.
ofc i`ts for $ for Cryptic ore some one just hit over the head and they will make thing whit $ in there mind. The trick is to hit some kind of balance between the too.
absolutely not, Cryptic has enough profit generators as it is, they do not need to add another one with crafting. They need to let it go.
Actually Cryptic do not make the final choice what happens so this is pointless.
If that is the case, then it leads back to my previous comments, now moderated, about how Cryptic are essentially indentured servants, and also if that is the case, a Feedback thread is pointless, official or otherwise, since such feedback will more then likely not be received by "those who decide."
The rare particle traces themselves should translate into rare components. Both were rare afterall.
I think you kinda missed the ball somewhat. Say I bought the chronometric beam array from the lobi store, that should unlock that type in the beam array construction model, so I can make more of them, same should go for say the wide angle option on torpedoes. Any C-store or lock box ship purchased with such a device unlocks it for the torpedo crafting. I also like many, many others agree that the random thing should go, and instead should be a thing that costs you're dilithium for modifers.
I think something you might do to encourage people to use this is restart the delta flier crafting again. Either a slightly nerfed 2409 delta flyer (of course offer the skin to current owners), or a release a C-store upgraded 2409. perhaps even some starships. I would definently put some pets here too.
UI fixes...
Firstly add a thing that would allow us to craft more then one of a given item if we want to, second, if I want to craft something and don't already have one, ask me if I want to make one, point out costs that might be involved, but if I click yes, make one.
"..and like children playing after sunset, we were surrounded by darkness." -Ruri Hoshino
Comments
Not looking to good so far really is it! But comments like this isn't helping so down to brass tacks, these have probably been already mentioned but the more people report back underscores how much everyone feels about it:
1. Picking up traces from missions and mining go into the Inventory tab instead of the R&D tab which means they don't register for the crafting unless you can get to a bank to swap them over.
2. You need to rename the 'Catalyst' to something else like 'Reactant' I - like a lot of people who play this game - did chemistry in school to know that a catalyst enables a reaction to take place but ISN'T lost in the process and can be REUSED, however a reactant is lost.
3. The DOff's when listed often don't have anything to do with the assignment and it isn't readily obvious that they can be changed as even though pressing the assign button can change them it implies that you want to use this officer to do the assignment, and while using a purple advisor might be good for foreign dignitaries I wouldn't trust them to produce a warp core! :eek:
4. More of a question this one, but when I clicked on the Catalyst box it came up with "No Duty Officer or Item to Submit". If there are plans to use DOff's as catalysts then it is strongly advisable to change the idea of loosing them afterwards as no one wants to loose DOff's especially if the outcome is a random one.
General Observations
I know from the release notes that this system is still a work in progress, but I have to say some of the things I have seen so far worry me a great deal especially as this is something a lot of people have been wanting for a long while, if you think the backlash is bad with just a few people testing it, wait till the rest of the player base get their paws on it!
With the cost of the items and the time it takes to make it, no one is going to want a random outcome, if I want a purple Mk XII dual beam bank and am going to invest the time and effort into not only crafting an item but gathering the materials and components then I want a guaranteed out come, and I think this is why a lot of people are also asking for the choice of mods as well (I don't know if this is something in the works or not).
If you - the devs - are intent in there being a random outcome to things then you should remove ALL the dilithium requirements, with the fact that the 'Explore Strange New Worlds' has gone this now means 20% (I get around 7k in dill a day and 'Explore' gave 1440 Dill ((1440/7000)*100=20%) of my daily income has gone as well. So spending that amount of dilithium on a project involves a lot of work for players like me. Work I am willing to put in but not for a random outcome!!!
In general it is nice to see Cryptic making this effort but I think it may have been better to sit down with the player base and ask "What do you want in this?" rather than doing all this work and then getting this negativity in reply. I don't understand why polls aren't used on this forum and more engagement between devs and the player base takes part especially when it concerns what is potentially a big chunk of the game.
Scenario:
Cryptic: "We heard that you want this..."
Player: "Thanks does it have this..?"
Cryptic: "It's now on Tribble for you to test..."
Player: "Thanks but it doesn't do this and that is wrong and what about the other..."
Cryptic: "We have updated this..."
Player: "But it still doesn't do this what we asked for..."
Cryptic: "Yay everyone this is now live on holodeck..."
Playerbase: "But it doesn't do this that and the other..."
Player: *facepalm* "We told you about that on Tribble a month ago..."
Cryptic: "We did this for you, but you are never happy, why do we bother..."
No ones happy!
Instead you could have...
Crypitic: "We understand you want this, so for the next 4 weeks let us know what you would like for this on the forum...use a poll with some choices ask players to vote, solicit additional choices
Playerbase feedback...
Cryptic: "Ok from what you have told us you want X,Y, and Z. X is possible, Y we would have to look into because of A,B and C, and Z isn't possible even if Taco was standing on his head at the time!
Time Passes
Crypitic: "Ok you asked for this, here it is..."
Player: "Okay can this be tweaked! and that tightened up?"
Cryptic: "How about now?"
Player "Perfect..."
Cryptic: "Yay everyone this is now live on holodeck..."
Etc.
There will always be people who complain but it will be a lot less with the second approach than the first!
So sorry for the negativity and please believe me the work everyone puts into this game is appreciated but this is something a lot of have wanted for a long while and feel very strongly about and as it stands at the moment means it will be used about as much as the old system, possibly even less so.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Cryptic: "We heard that you want this..."
Player: "Thanks does it have this..?"
Cryptic: "It's now on Tribble for you to test..."
Player: "Thanks but it doesn't do this and that is wrong and what about the other..."
Cryptic: "We have updated this..."
Player: "But it still doesn't do this what we asked for..."
Cryptic: "Yay everyone this is now live on holodeck..."
Playerbase: "But it doesn't do this that and the other..."
Player: *facepalm* "We told you about that on Tribble a month ago..."
Cryptic: "We did this for you, but you are never happy, why do we bother..."
That is scary accurate.
As for feedback.
1. Dilitium costs must go away. Paying 20k dilitium for a Mk XII item of unknown rarity and modifiers is ridiculous.
2. Refining approx. 10 pcs of every particle trace did not render enough rare resources for creation a MK X item.
3. The "Finish Now" button should have a confirmation window. It is big, it can be clicked by accident. Also, it is active even for projects that take a few seconds to complete. This is low.
Y'see, I converted a couple of huge piles of the old particles and particle traces to the new materials. I got more and smaller piles of random materials, many of which did not have the same quality as the things I converted. Where can I get some more materials? Not the star clusters, they've been removed, along with the exploration missions which are THE WHOLE POINT OF STAR TREK! There aren't very many available to get from replaying missions (which I have now done up to Task Force Hippocrates (the one immediately before the Spectres storyline starts)). So that only leaves DOff assignments. *Sigh*. Okay, 30 minutes, 45 minutes, one hour, two hours, or four hours, to get a handful of materials when before I could travel to a star cluster that offered the appropriate-level of particle trace, and scan a couple of anomalies to get the same amount - a task which took minutes!
Okay, fine DOff assignments. Oh look, the materials I'm getting have no correspondence to the title of the mission. Still, it's a work in progress, they probably haven't got round to matching such simple things up yet - like they haven't got round to putting Components in sensible crafting categories (Why does a torpedo need a focusing lens? Why does it need an ejector system?) Oh, hey, I've gone through the HIDEOUS new DOff UI and run every material-gathering mission I can find, looks like at least one from each level of particles. Oh look, a couple of them have given me Critical Success, has that actually improved the number and/or quality of the crating materials I receive? No it hasn't!
Before: DOff mission to collect technical schematics particles - four hours, five technical schematics received on a success, ten technical schematics and two random particle traces received on a critical success.
After: DOff mission to collect random crafting materials - four hours, six materials of random type and quality received on a success, twelve materials of random type and quality received on a critical success. None more than blue quality in either case.
FFS Cryptic, if you want me to tie up a pair of purple DOffs for four hours, I had better get a pre-specified reward (NOT a random one); and if I get critical success, I want the reward to be as good as possible. Blue-quality crafting materials are NOT as good as purple-quality crafting materials, so why aren't I getting them from critical successes?
On current showing, Cryptic, if the DOff UI and crafting system currently on Tribble goes to Holodeck without thorough re-working and improvement, I will stop crafting completely, and I will only continue to DOff in order to get unique rewards (Unforgiven of Ferasa/Caitian Diaspora, Ghosts of the Jem'Hadar, and Project Chrysalis chains, and the star cluster DOffs if you keep them available), and the Transwarp destinations for Diplomacy/Marauding.
You are killing the game by continuing on this path
Not only that but removing the clusters is just as bad or even worse. You are forcing people who want to craft into re-running episodes, foundries for mats. A mind numbing time sink with quite frankly, very little payoff.
My opinion, not that this matters is to seriously reconsider this if not all out scrap this plan.
As presented currently on tribble, this crafting system is flat out awful. One of the worst I've seen in an mmo.
The new crafting system as it stands... is well just too cumbersome. There are many aspects that have potential after being refined. The skill trees, while understandable that you mixed crafting parts into other trees so as not to get people constantly doing just one thing and keeping it spread out. Though this approach does have its fall backs. The main one being how much back tracking you must do to get all the items you need to just make one thing you want. A simple work around to this would be
Select the Item you want to make, (you don't have the items needed. Okay Auto craft to get.) Worth waiting a little bit while that happens. Go fly around, do an stf or something. (Or just do away with all the middle stuff.) And let us use the raw materials we already have stockpiled. I'm sure that the engineering department along with the quartermaster of the ship could handle making a few things from raw materials without you having to tell them you need to make this or that first.
Please for the love of the Great Bird of the Galaxy do not change the Doff ui... the current one works just fine, is not an eye sore or cumbersome. IT works no need to fix, maybe refine a little or polish up. A new feature like a promotion system for your doffs that have been around on your ship for ages. (Once promoted cant be traded) so as not to flood the exchange with them. That could be great.
Okay so the little perks for getting your crafting skill up is.. well cute. Though could be improved. It would make more sense to have special benefits that are only offered through the crafting system to be added to the items themselves. This would give a the new system a good draw.... like (example though I would love to see actually work. Mk XII VR turret, new proc 1% chance to trigger cannon rapid fire 1 for all turrets.) Little things like that or other new traits to weapons would make this system worth the bloody effort.
As it stands from testing it and nearly braking my mouse and fingers dealing with conversions and the multilayer steps needed to make anything. It just not worth the time, the aggravation or the cost.
In the old system, I would gather traces and then craft small things until I get enough experience to craft what I want. There was a slight cost (in Dil) for the better stuff, but that is to be expected. I was actually able to get one of my three crafting captains up to full XP in less than an hour, thanks in part to my Fleets Bank full of material.
In the new system, I have to use a junior officer (DOff) to actually do the crafting for me, no sense of accomplishment here.
I actually spent 15 minutes just trying to figure out how to convert my old material to the new stuff and then about 30 minutes actually clicking to convert. I'll repeat here what everyone else has said: "Sliders, please!"
While I didn't have a lot of materials I was able to get up to Level 2 on Beams. Trying to maximize XP received I crafted the minor parts then created a MK II Antiproton Dual Beam Bank, for which I got a purple!
I then tried crafting MK VI AP DBB (everything higher required components that I didn't have), and was able to create 3 Commons and 1 Uncommon. All of this took about 90 minutes.
Since this was Tribble, I actually used the Dil to speed things up but if this was Holodeck, I would just wait it out. It's too hard for me to come up with Dil for the amount of time I can actually play the game.
I don't play a lot of MMOs so I'm not too familiar with the crafting systems but here are my observations:
1) I actually like that I have to create a sub-part to create what I'm after, but since most require several items, make it where I can craft multiple items at once.
2) Even better, if I'm missing sub-parts, give me to option of clicking the missing piece(s) and it automatically going to that crafting screen. i.e. I click a MK II AP Beam Array which needs two Focusing Lens and two Targeting Interface. I click Focusing Lens and it takes me to the Focusing Lens crafting interface.
3) Everything seems too pricey for the result. 3 Common and 5 Uncommon parts to make a MK VI AP Dual Beam Bank?
4) Generally, I am not a very lucky player and this system seems to require lots of it.
5) To repeat what a lot have asked: Let me craft the exact item I want, not a random piece of equipment that I can get as a drop in most missions.
Definitely agree with needing sliders. You can hold CTRL to bypass the "do you want to buy this" dialog, but sliders would be so much more convenient.
While on the topic of sliders, it would be REALLY NICE to have qty sliders in the crafting assignments as well. If I need to make 10 EPS conduits, it takes a LONG TIME to queue up 10 separate tasks to do this. A slider that adjusts the qty, updating the r&d supplies needed to complete x qty of that item would be PERFECT. Of course, the task completion time / dil buy-out price would scale accordingly.
If cryptic doesn't think like that, i can craft you some new cars will cost you $ 100.000,00 but you can get a ferari (or a fiat panda)
1) The dilithium cost is extortionate. There is no way it should cost this much dil for a gamble at something that may or may not be any good.
2) We can't even choose the modifiers for the items, which is pretty lame, but I would like to know why because surely I would be able to tell my crew what I expect them to tune the equipment for....
3) Might be an idea for when you max a school, but could we have the opportunity to reverse-engineer technology we pick up in the field to add them to the list of stuff we can craft? For example, what if I pick up a Voth Sniper Rifle, could I reverse-engineer this to get that type of antiproton energy type and the look of the weapon?
You could even make it so we can get some rare procs from stuff in-game, like the psi proc off the lirpa from Hearts and Minds, just as an example, or even polarised disruptor energy types. It would add a dilithium and ec sink to get people collecting stuff to add to their repertoire.
4) Why are there no melee weapons in the ground weapons school? That seems rather short-sighted not to include a popular fighting method.
5) What is going to happen to the Alien Artefact console creation mission, because isn't that going to be made rather redundant with this update? Because even if you do level crafting the way it is now, the odds of you getting what you want far outstrip the odds from the alien artefact mission.
6) Is there really much point differentiating beams and cannons when they have a lot of similar stuff between the two schools such as the consoles? Surely it would be better to amalgamate them into one and combine the trait to energy weapon damage in general?
7) It may just be me but two pieces of the aegis set, engine and deflector, don't seem to be available.
8) Do you actually plan to put a tier progression bar at the top of each school so we can see what we unlock as we go along, assuming there is anything to be unlocked? Because at the moment it doesn't look like there is really anything there that is unique, contrary to what D'Angelo told us in his blog.
9) The old doff interface is better, put it back how it was. I know for a fact the pro doffers I know and myself all prefer the old style of it.
10) At present this system doesn't seem very alt friendly, because from the looks of it it is going to take an insane amount of time just to level one school on one character. Isn't there going to be a way of lightening the load for other characters after completing a school?
11) I absolutely in no way endorse timers that cost dilithium to reduce the cooldown of a project. Remove them!
12) The way this is now, I feel comfortable predicting that this is a system only those with considerable time and resources are going to get through with any meaningful progress, and I feel many players simply won't be able to get through this in any meaningful manner. People need to feel they're making progress and at present it feels too heavy going for that to be the case.
13) Apparently there was meant to be a few ultra-rare pieces in the system but they don't seem to be there as far as I can tell. Also, I have yet to see how this system is supposed to be competitive in any way shape or form, because at present I'd be better off running missions until I get a good piece of gear, selling it then buying precisely what I want.
14) I did figure the system out fairly quick myself, however I can imagine someone else might have issues and so there really needs to be a tutorial. Yet this is minor compared to the glaringly awful issues the system already has.
Any decent crafting system should be about making what you want, knowing what you're going to get bar the rarity maybe and knowing you won't be wasting a lot of resources. This system doesn't remotely achieve this, and frankly I'm finding it hard to believe someone actually thought that the system as it stands on tribble is actually any good.
I will, as the system is now, point blank refuse to use it if it goes live. I know some people are getting the feeling this game is heading more and more towards a more Asian-style grindfest MMO and that's putting them off, and certainly this crafting 'revamp' has only strengthened those feelings considerably.
It's a shame really, because recently it felt like stuff was improving, albeit slowly, but now I'm not so sure if this is really the way the game is going....
EDIT: I've probably missed a few points, but that is a fair number of them, and I hope someone reads this and listens.
As long as dilithium or any other real money currency has any part in it, I wont bother.
My main chars are maxed out on all other reputations, they also have access to a maxed out Fleet starbase, so can get Mk12 VR quality equipment any time they want to.
Why would I bother with crafting to gamble as much dilithium on maybe getting the equivalent??
The founding idea behind crafting, is that "time" being the main currency. It should take ages to max out crafting, and complicated in that you need to find the different materials needed to craft said item.
Dilthium or any other real money currency has no place in crafting at all, period.
Instead, Cryptic logic suggests that we should be charged: Time to level+time to make+Dilithium cost to make+(optional)Dilithium cost to finish quicker+random drop! :rolleyes:
What it should be: Time to level+time to make+(optional)EC cost to finish quicker+random drop....
Most veterans know that once something hits Tribble, that is how it will be on live..
But, on the rare occasions, throwing our hands in the air and calling Cryptic out on their horrible greedy ideas, sometimes changes something..
Its a balance of profit. IF they realise they'll loose more money from lost customers than their greedy idea can bring in, they sometimes, very rarely, relent.
But that's unusual as talking donkey.
They do this to the point it defies common sense. For example, if they really needed money, they could just put some new items in the Cstore.
Like Quad cannons for the missing 3 energy types, Wide angle torpedoes, etc. Would even need less effort from their part.
1. Random-Quality and Random Modificators
When I can build an Item I will choose, what Quality and what modificator it should be have. I know me and my luck. We are not friends. I pay 15K Dillit
He meant "common" by "non purple" I think.
To be honest, whites, greens and blues ARE common and easy to find.
1. It's pointless at this point
Technical aspects aside, I've got to ask - why...? Why do we need such a crafting system which basically revolves around grinding materials to rank up in yet another leveling system? We've already got Reputations and Starbases to develop. This new Crafting is nothing but a pointless layer of the Doff system, with artificial timers and barriers added on top. It's like you've just wanted to add yet another grind for the sole sake of grinding (and monetizing), but forgot to include anything actually worth grinding for.
2. It's an expensive crane machine, not crafting
Tons of crafting materials of various rarities which we need to either grind or buy, plus duty officers, plus ridiculous dilithium costs, plus tons of clicking and waiting hours/days for results. And for what? For a RANDOM QUALITY item with RANDOM MODIFIERS. So if we cannot create an item we actually want or need, and we're not guaranteed we'll end up with the rarity we want, why should we even spend ANY amount of resources on this crafting thing? I'd rather buy myself some reputation weapons with the modifiers I want, or just hope for a random drop.
3. Low level items? What for?
Ok, it's already clear that the new system requires huge amount of materials, dilithium and grind. As a result, it'll take a lot of time to rank up in each individual schools. Probably way more it'll take an average player to reach lvl 50. Do you honestly think such player will have both time and resources to craft himeslf some lower level item? Especially since it'll cost him dilithium he most probably doesn't even have? At least with the current system he can just buy items form the dilithium store. After the revamp he'll not only have to pay, but grind and wait.
So as I've said, crafting is yet another pointless leveling system that'll maybe eventually become useful after reaching max rank, assuming some unique items will be added to it. All the low level stuff is essentially - everybody together now - "pointless!"
4. STO goes mobile
This whole crafting "revamp" just shows that PWE/Cryptic is run by Ferengis. It's your typical mobile gaming business model slapped onto already existing model. Combine it with the earlier point that the whole thing is pointless and you've got yourself a cow-clicker, with your average timers, paywalls, "optional" (paid) benefit items, and a paid ability to shorten the timers. At this point I'm almost certain both the doff system and the crafting system is coming to STO Gateway. And even though I don't mind this fact, I do mind that it's coming in the worst form imagineable - as a cow clicker.
5. Crafting revamped, content removed...
I've already complained about this in another thread. You're "revamping" a piece of system, but at the same time removing a huge portion of playable content in the form of Star Clusters without introducing anything in their place. And I think we all know why - Star Clusters are the best source of anomalies we're getting crafting materials from.
So instead of removing these scannable anomalies to make it more difficult for farmers, you're removing the star clusters altogether... I don't know what you've been smoking that you thought it was a good idea and I honestly believe you should rethink that decission.
So at this point Season 9,5 seems to add a pointless layer of grind while removing a piece of playable content. In a perfect world (pun semi-intended) you would postpone the release of this season, bring star clusters back, and go with the crafting system back to the drawing board. But we all know this isn't gonna happen and you'll release this monstrosity live pretty soon, despite all the negative feedback. As such I honestly hope players will finally lose interest and won't spend any money on this cash-grab, so that you'll eventually come to your senses and start thinking about expanding the actual game in the future, not just your wallets...
XP per level on an exponential-type curve, XP per project flat.
What I mean by XP per project flat, the player gets a flat 600 xp/hour from the "primary" construction projects, things like, for the science school, deflectors and consoles.
To wit: Mk VI item, 600 xp / 1 hour. Mk VIII item, 1200 xp / 2 hours. Mk X, 1800 / 3, Mk XI, 2400 / 4 and Mk XII 3000 / 5.
Especially since Mk VIIIs need "rare" materials, there's little reason to grind the higher tier projects during a long grind session, it's more "cost effective" to pop out piles of VIs and hoard the rare mats till XII and the start of the "lottery" for items with the right mods.
Typically, when there's an exponential type curve on XP needs, there's a scaled project payout system, that's frequently based around the rarity of the inputs.
To demonstrate, things built with common rarity only materials wind up being 600 xp / hour. Once the level-locked things start coming into play that need "rare" materials (aka Mk VIIIs that you have to be at least level 5 for), they start paying 700 xp / hour, and the Mk Xs that can't be touched till level 10, pay 800 xp / hour.
Yes, I know that this could be "semi-abusive", in that an L1 could hit up the exchange for pre-built L10 middle-parts and pop out Mk X components for the higher XP payouts, however, the system is "prebuilt" so that, due to lack of skill, the player has about a 0% chance of getting anything "of value" (they'll craft piles of Mk X whites and maybe the occasional green) till they get to the point of being able to craft the level 10 components themselves...
Also, and it's kind of hard to tell since my tester is an Admiral already, but does the system "level" with the player appropriately? What I'm asking is, if I was a "Science" crafter, would I be consistently building Mk IV blues at Lt Cmdr 5, Mk VIII blues at Cmdr 5, Mk X blues at Capt 5, Mk XIs at the RAUH point, and Mk XIIs at VA? This is taking into account semi-farming for materials and using the exchange to convert "non-science" findings and converting them into "science" findings?
Just a couple of hallmarks of a "thought out" crafting system that I'm not seeing in this one... And I haven't even gotten into my thoughts on the "Cryptic must love lotteries system" that I'm seeing in NWO's crafting (and here, too...)
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Apologist Observations:
Practical Observations:
Aesthetic Observations:
Impressions/Suggestions:
Simultaneously, it gives a huge leg up for those players who can 'Afford' to spend real money on leveling their Crafting. Will this make Crafting a viable and/or enjoyable pursuit for the average player?
My two Darseks worth of wisdom and perspective...*Chuckle*...
Operations Team, 12th Fleet
I guess I need to reiterate what I said before:
If you haven't gone onto Tribble and observed things first hand (or at least second hand from a video), you are not providing feedback. You are providing commentary based on hearsay that will get in the way of the Devs gathering and providing feedback.
Please test the new stuff on Tribble, then come back and post. Please keep your replies to the point and on topic. You may have positive and/or negative impressions and that's fine. There is ZERO room for having arguments in this thread.
After this, I will be actively moderating this topic.
~Bluegeek
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Yes i have test it.
What will you consider a feedback.
We say what we thing a negative and make us not use the revamp, we give suggestion how to change thing (i) give a feedback that i thing may be done i`ts going take some work but i can be made whit out remaking the full system.
The point is so dev need to a improvement ore remaking some aspect (numbers) of it how we thing will not work well ore make player chose that i`ts not worth there time.
Dilithium cost way to much for items
What my incoherent compatriot is trying to say is, we are giving feed back, more then that, we are giving our feed back AND proposing solutions to the issue.
the problem is that the feed back is negative about a system that is truly designed very poorly, a Doff UI that was "improved" for no good reason, and I use improved in quotations because it's not actually any better, in fact it's in many ways and overall worse.
and dilithium instead of unreplicatable materials, now makes crafting a single player game and not a group effort, as it's supposed to be, especially for fleet crafters, this is WHY unreplicatable materials were added into the game to solve this problem, going BACK to dilithium is just another step backwards.
Why can't the crafting system be a more traditional Recipe/material system, where you gather schematics, and materials, either from exploration, STFs, or even just breaking down Vender loot for parts.
With the amount of Shield Arrays, Weapons, Deflector dishes floating around out there, anyone in their right mind would be doing salvage.
But however you get your parts, you should be able to take your stuff, combine it with your recipe and get your item, No slot machine gambling, just get your crafted item, period.
Post edited to remove the more speculative and off-topic comments, in order to demonstrate what I mean by feedback, as solicited by the Devs. ~Bluegeek
ofc i`ts for $ for Cryptic ore some one just hit over the head and they will make thing whit $ in there mind. The trick is to hit some kind of balance between the too.
absolutely not, Cryptic has enough profit generators as it is, they do not need to add another one with crafting. They need to let it go.
Actually Cryptic do not make the final choice what happens so this is pointless.
If that is the case, then it leads back to my previous comments, now moderated, about how Cryptic are essentially indentured servants, and also if that is the case, a Feedback thread is pointless, official or otherwise, since such feedback will more then likely not be received by "those who decide."
so what are we doing then??
The rare particle traces themselves should translate into rare components. Both were rare afterall.
I think you kinda missed the ball somewhat. Say I bought the chronometric beam array from the lobi store, that should unlock that type in the beam array construction model, so I can make more of them, same should go for say the wide angle option on torpedoes. Any C-store or lock box ship purchased with such a device unlocks it for the torpedo crafting. I also like many, many others agree that the random thing should go, and instead should be a thing that costs you're dilithium for modifers.
I think something you might do to encourage people to use this is restart the delta flier crafting again. Either a slightly nerfed 2409 delta flyer (of course offer the skin to current owners), or a release a C-store upgraded 2409. perhaps even some starships. I would definently put some pets here too.
UI fixes...
Firstly add a thing that would allow us to craft more then one of a given item if we want to, second, if I want to craft something and don't already have one, ask me if I want to make one, point out costs that might be involved, but if I click yes, make one.