Personally, I can't stand the idea of swimsuits/beachwear being worn around spacedock, etc., but I take the adult option and ignore all that, just like I ignore the THOUSANDS of USS EnterpriZes, Kirks, Picards and anyone who flies a USS IM0VR9000 or USS UrMomzHawt. If you're fixating on minor things like swimwear in an area known for weird RP and cybering, then I don't know how you can play this game at all...
The argument against the swimwear is largely one of brand consistency. My argument would be that the consistency argument isn't that strong outside of isolated maps, particularly when compared with available options.
When information provided on a product and/or service is not consistent with the consumer's previously held beliefs and convictions, ambiguity occurs in the understanding of the product
The results show that the consumer confusion proneness scale has sound psychometric properties and that the three dimensions of similarity, overload, and ambiguity have a differential impact on word of mouth behaviour, trust, and customer satisfaction.
Therefore, ambiguity-confusion proneness can be largely attributed to
consumers response to dubious product claims or conflicting information on
the same product from different sources. Marketer dominated stimuli are
more likely to prompt confusion because they are more likely to be
inconsistent with the consumers prior beliefs and knowledge, which can
cause ambiguity.
Consequently, to represent the concept of confusion proneness more fully,
the two traits of similarity and overload confusion proneness need to be
complemented by a third, ambiguity confusion proneness, which is
consumers tolerance for processing unclear, misleading, or ambiguous products,
product-related information or advertisements.
...
One implication of ambiguity confusion proneness is that
marketers need to systematically identify sources of perceived stimulus
ambiguity and to rectify them. Consumers might avoid misunderstandings if
store personnel were clearer and more helpful and usage instructions and
package information were less ambiguous and easier to understand
In short, participation relies on consistent rules.
That can certainly be a reason for banning swimsuits (protecting brand identity, consistency) but the way they're banned or allowed also needs to be consistent. The first issue would be with the consistency of the brand but the second issue would be with the consistency of the game's rules, policies, and design decisions.
The issue being the prevalence of equally unthemely or revealing costumes and party items. This sends an ambiguous message and whether the message is deliberate or not and what the message is go to the heart of the question.
With regards to Lucas, I think it's a case of the consistency of his output or prior loyalty overriding the negative effects... and even then not completely.
"Because I said so" is an invitation for the consumer to weigh the affinity they have for you against the consistency of your decisions... and it generally only pays off when you arrive at a new kind of consistency.
It's essentially saying, "Trust me. When I'm done, there will be new consistent rules that build on what I'm doing right now." And if that payoff happens, you get loyalty. And if things remain confusing, you attract ill will.
In fact, I think Cryptic constantly shoots themselves in the food by not really explaining aspects of their decisions.
I can understand CBS saying "Swimsuits on Risa only" (although I am skeptical whether that was ever said and I think CBS's requests get distorted or sometimes used as scapegoats for internal decisions). However, the issue is then that Cryptic seems to have inconsistent stances on what can be used where. They could have gone further to be consistent by having similar rules for offduty outfits or party items to avoid looking inconsistent or creating a dissonant impression of what they do and why.
Heck, they have an inconsistent relationship with CBS, admitting that they put the T1 TOS Connie and lockbox ships in despite supposedly strong misgivings from CBS and Van Citters at CBS still cracks jokes at Cryptic's expense about things like airport signage from the old ESD or blue LCARS, indicating those were done over his objections as well. So I'm not even sure that CBS saying "no" means they can't do it or if it means CBS is largely just giving advice (a soft "don't do that if you're smart" as opposed to a hard "no") and will just make fun of them if it backfires.
With regards to Lucas, I think it's a case of the consistency of his output or prior loyalty overriding the negative effects... and even then not completely.
That's why I compare STO to SW. Because STO has brand loyalty similar to SW -- players will play and fork over money regardless of how topsy-turvy someone's perception of 'immersion' is.
"Because I said so" is an invitation for the consumer to weigh the affinity they have for you against the consistency of your decisions... and it generally only pays off when you arrive at a new kind of consistency.
In SW's case there was never any 'new' kind of consistency, considering just how often Lucas made creative decisions that contradicted and made ambiguous previous consistency.
It's essentially saying, "Trust me. When I'm done, there will be new consistent rules that build on what I'm doing right now." And if that payoff happens, you get loyalty. And if things remain confusing, you attract ill will.
I argue that they don't have to apply new consistent rules. Same as Lucas or any other intellectual property that has allegedly 'done wrong' in terms of immersion and consistency. Loyalty for Star Trek is already established and regardless of what TRIBBLE the creators churn out (like Enterprise, Nemesis, or even the JJ Abrams films), people will still pay money no matter what -- and the creators have grown accustomed to the rabble and have learned to ignore it because they know people wll give them money anyway.
In fact, I think Cryptic constantly shoots themselves in the food by not really explaining aspects of their decisions.
Sometimes, sure. But maybe with a BB gun. A small sting. Maybe a bruise. But nothing seems to rupture an artery or sever a nerve yet, and I doubt this swimsuit issue will be any different. People are still very polarized on the issue.
I can understand CBS saying "Swimsuits on Risa only" (although I am skeptical whether that was ever said and I think CBS's requests get distorted or sometimes used as scapegoats for internal decisions).
They have no reason to lie about such a thing. Cryptic has taken plenty of bloody noses from its players (sometimes even justifiably), so there's no reason to try to hide on this kind of decision -- particularly when it's quite evident there might be a financial incentive for them.
Of all the issues Cryptic has stirred up in the past 4 years, of all the controversial decisions made, why would something as trivial and superficial as swimsuits be something to lie about? If I was more unscrupulous of a person, I would have picked far more 'hot button' topics to scapegoat CBS on.
So why would they pick this (or a few other handful of superficial issues)?
Unless, of course, they haven't.
However, the issue is then that Cryptic seems to have inconsistent stances on what can be used where. They could have gone further to be consistent by having similar rules for offduty outfits or party items to avoid looking inconsistent or creating a dissonant impression of what they do and why.
Then it comes down to aesthetics. What is acceptable and what is not. What I might see as acceptable could be very different for someone else. Personally, if I had my way? Everybody would be in the Odyssey outfit 100% of the time they aren't on shore leave.
It also comes down to a technological issue -- this is the first time we've seen Cryptic implement such a restriction, there is certainly the possibility for more to come down the pipe.
And in the end, it is up to Cryptic (and CBS Studios) over what is acceptable and what is not. Everything we have seen thus far is acceptable to them both, the swimsuits are not. So we see a consistent boundary there, yes? We now know for a fact what is not acceptable off-duty uniforms.
Heck, they have an inconsistent relationship with CBS, admitting that they put the T1 TOS Connie and lockbox ships in despite supposedly strong misgivings from CBS and Van Citters at CBS still cracks jokes at Cryptic's expense about things like airport signage from the old ESD or blue LCARS, indicating those were done over his objections as well. So I'm not even sure that CBS saying "no" means they can't do it or if it means CBS is largely just giving advice (a soft "don't do that if you're smart" as opposed to a hard "no") and will just make fun of them if it backfires.
CBS Studios has a good relationship with Cryptic. They are the boss, but they give Cryptic a large degree of latitude (like they have with other licensees for the IP), but they will intervene whenever and however they choose. If CBS wants to hardline a particular issue, Cryptic will have to cave -- that is part of the agreement. The fact they choose not to does not mean anything other than a greater degree of artistic freedom given to Cryptic.
However, just like the players and Cryptic, CBS Studios has also compromised with Cryptic on several issues -- for instance the lockbox ships being rare, and unattainable by just anyone. While we may think they are not rare -- they are rare enough to satisfy CBS Studios, even if they may have misgivings.
CBS Studios has intervened to cause Cryptic to remove the ability to color our energy weapons (we used to be able to colorize our energy beams various colors), for instance. Why? Because they can. And apparently they have an idea of immersion that they wanted Cryptic to abide by.
It is not up to us to decide their logic or pattern. Their decisions are ultimately their own and they will explain them if they want to, or they will not.
And it is up to Cryptic and CBS Studios to compromise -- or not. Just like it is up to the players to compromise -- or not. Swimsuits were not going to happen unless they were restricted to certain areas, we knew this years ago. This was a decision where their mind was already made up.
The fact many players do not want to compromise on this (swimsuits are the result of a compromise to begin with), really just deters Cryptic from offering similar features in the future if they will have this particular feedback.
They threw us a bone when we asked for one, and now players don't like the way it tastes.
As degree of immersion is solely at the discretion of individual players, not decided by one man, I leave this message in response to you op, with your wisdom and fashion spence being foremost in my mind. If I could dress my Gorn avatar in a hot pink zebra striped bakini thong and nothing else, I would and seek you out on Drozana. As such, I would promptly immerse myself in the forums, awaiting my thread about how I should be banned. Role play not withstanding, I offer this as my immersion into the game. Key word: GAME.
As degree of immersion is solely at the discretion of individual players, not decided by one man, I leave this message in response to you op, with your wisdom and fashion spence being foremost in my mind. If I could dress my Gorn avatar in a hot pink zebra striped bakini thong and nothing else, I would and seek you out on Drozana. As such, I would promptly immerse myself in the forums, awaiting my thread about how I should be banned. Role play not withstanding, I offer this as my immersion into the game. Key word: GAME.
I would buy that gorn a drink.
____GREAT LEADERS LET THEIR ACTIONS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES. [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
As degree of immersion is solely at the discretion of individual players, not decided by one man, I leave this message in response to you op, with your wisdom and fashion spence being foremost in my mind. If I could dress my Gorn avatar in a hot pink zebra striped bakini thong and nothing else, I would and seek you out on Drozana. As such, I would promptly immerse myself in the forums, awaiting my thread about how I should be banned. Role play not withstanding, I offer this as my immersion into the game. Key word: GAME.
That is obscene!!!!! On a Gorn it should be chartreuse or cerulean, not pink. Have you no decency?
Immersion? oO
Really? Aw, come one, drawing the immersion card against swimwear?
At least my chars could explain themself that the swimwear wearers outside risa might just have come from the holodeck or a beachside of whatever planet they are on (Beaches on other planets than risa & the holodeck are canon) for a shopping break.
That immersive logic does not work on 50%+ of the legit uniform to be seen daily on ESD and if one swimsuit replaces one of the silly but legit extremes its a massive win on the immersion side.
Absolutely right. I also believe that forums posters should have endless amounts of tolerance. In fact, posters should be so incredibly tolerant, that they should tell OTHER posters how to post on forums! Phrases like "stop whining"/ "let it rest"/"I don't care" and so on should definitely be banned and outlawed from the forums. That's just one example of my boundless tolerance for forums posting.
I believe in tolerance as well. Including the ability to tolerate any "stop whining"/ "let it rest"/"I don't care"/etc. Then again, I'm a strong advocate of free speech, and it's kinda impossible to have free speech when the board owners can censor your words, edit your posts, and/or punish you for what you say.
I think that nothing someone says should be outlawed.
While this is a fascinating debate of assumed 'kid friendly' or whatever the justification is for not allowing swimwear off Risa.
People want to wear bikinis or swimwear, and not turn ESD into some redlight district, why because CBS assumes that a bikini is in fact lewd attire? Yes, some people would abuse the costume outfit, anymore that nearly every one of them probably also as an Orion girl as well, which a loincloth bikini somehow counts as a Duty Uniform anyway.
In any case, there is no real reason as the Swimwear is its own category that it can just as easily be made available for those who wish to run around.. and do nothing more that what they already do nothing, stilling at ESD.
If the biggest issue for Cryptic is this 'bug', they might want to log in once and a while that there are alot more than that.
If the issue is some sort of canon, I find fighting in a cocktail dress or a suit equally as absurd, or the fact that a female can take off the undershirt for the Khan costume.
Turning places like ESD or whatever into some red-light district when short split skirts, Orion Slave Girls, or even just watch the chat, the game has already gone there a long time ago.
The problem here is that if you worked for the favors, or the items for any other costume, for other events most would expect to want to use even off season. Wherever and whenever.
If the problem is the bikini itself as if some sort of the modesty issue, perhaps the people that would use the bikini as a permanent uniform are not the only people that need to grow up.
If you have a problem with the idea that it should work like any other outfit because it makes you feel all funny, that's your problem.
So we don't want to make or create these red-light districts.. but itll just be created on Risa probably just to spite the fact that everyone is making such a huge issue of it.
I personally am for allowing it off Risa, you earned it, you chose to wear it. The more that CBS and Cryptic makes it a big-deal, the more that certain players will make it far bigger deal.
Folks, being insulting, mean, trolling etc is against the rules. He is doing what he's supposed to be doing, pointing out there is a exploit which allows players to do something they're not supposed to be doing.
You are completely right.
But what people dont get it is why he call it "inmersion breaking" lol. As people said, you can fly an undine ship, or a tholian recluse, or place disco balls in space... that is not inmersion breaking but seeing a klingon with a swimsuit is? of course we should report these exploits. But what we dont understand is the thinking of the op.
But what people dont get it is why he call it "inmersion breaking" lol. As people said, you can fly an undine ship, or a tholian recluse, or place disco balls in space... that is not inmersion breaking but seeing a klingon with a swimsuit is? of course we should report these exploits. But what we dont understand is the thinking of the op.
I cannot fathom how it could be "immersion-breaking" myself. We have armor which does not have to be visible, and personal shields which never seem to be visible (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't recall having ever seen personal shields, that is, the shields used in ground missions, have any visual effects). I have often pointed out to those who, in Fantasy-genre MMOs, would complain about the stereotypical (and seldom actually seen) "chainmail bikini," that both Magic and Illusion are a given in the Fantasy milieu, so that what appears to be a "chainmail bikini" might in fact be a suit of full plate glamoured to look like a "chainmail bikini." Most of the time I'm in a ground mission in STO, I don't pay much attention to what others are wearing, unless it should happen to catch my eye (in which case I generally do nothing more than take a screen shot of it to look at later). I could not care less what others around me are wearing in those situations, because my mind is on the mission, where it should be.
Goodness, someone on ESD / in the First City / at New Romulus Star Command is running around in a bikini. Yeah, so? Are they part of your crew? Are you their Fleet Admiral? If your answer to both of these questions is "No," then it's up to their superior officers to enforce the wearing of a uniform, when they're on duty. ESD has (or did till it was remade, and will eventually have again, according to Dev notes) an off-duty club. Starfleet Academy has a club as well. There's a bar in the First City. There's a balcony at New Romulus Command. Any of these locations ought to be quite open to personnel who are not in uniform, and they are already thus, as you can see any number of off-duty costumes in use in any of them.
I almost went to an interview with an applicant to my fleet while wearing my string bikini; I had been on Risa enjoying a much-needed furlough, along with my Hmnial (Aide-de-Camp) and her beloved. I do not see how my going to my own fleet's starbase to conduct the business of my fleet would be in any way "immersion-breaking" for anyone who is neither a member of my fleet nor an applicant to join my fleet, and the explanation in-character was a rather obvious one: I came directly here from Risa, where I was at liberty.
Honestly, there are enough other things going on in-game which, if you choose to allow them to disturb your groove, will definitely do so far more easily than seeing me in a bikini at New Romulus Star Command (or even, for that matter, in a combat zone). As such, I am left with little choice but to conclude that all this talk of "immersion" in connection with swimwear off Risa is often (if perhaps not always) a cloak for some other objection.
If it's a question of "morality," we have Klingons, Orions, Nausicaans, Gorn, Letheans, Suliban, Acamarians, Romulans, Remans, Vulcans, Bajorans, Humans, Andorians, ... the list goes on. Morality is relative to both time and culture. The Vulcans once had a custom (this is from canon, specifically, VOY episode "Meld") which was a Pagan festival "full of barely clothed Vulcan men and women, covered in slippery Rillan grease, chasing one another." The last date it was observed on Vulcan was well after the proto-Romulans left Vulcan and the teachings of Surak (or the Vulcan establishment's version thereof) were the overwhelmingly dominant philosophy on Vulcan. At one time, followers of a certain religious sect in Germany found the consumption of alcohol perfectly acceptable while they viewed the smoking of tobacco to be morally reprehensible, while members of the same sect in the USA held the exact opposite views on both of those practices. Your morals are your own. Not everyone shares them, and even in cases where there is great similarity of underlying ethical philosophy, the external manifestations thereof may be interpreted differently by different cultures, and different generations, and even different individuals. A case in point from our own culture is the mini skirt. For many people of my generation and the generation before (my older siblings, in fact), the mini skirt was a symbol of women's liberation, of sexual liberation, and of rebellion against the establishment's arbitrary dictates, whereas for some in younger generations, it's viewed as demeaning and objectifying, and those women who wear it are seen as catering to the wishes of the patriarchy. Just a few decades have passed, and even within the same society, which has the same cultural roots, one article of clothing is seen by some as one thing, while the same article of clothing is seen as something else by others -- very incompatible views, both with an ethical component. And these views are not wholly dependent on one's generation; there are people my age and from the previous generation who do not share my perspective on the mini skirt, and there are people from the younger generations who do. The point is that what you view as immoral may not be seen in that way by others.
If it's a matter of aesthetic preference, that's even more relative than morality.
It's an MMORPG. The best MMORPGs, apart from considerations of game mechanics, storyline, and the like, are those in which the players have considerable options for character customization. The more of such options that exist, the more satisfaction for the very diverse player base will exist. When people learn to mind their own business and stop trying to dictate to others what they "should" or "should not" be doing in matters of superficiality such as appearance (or in matters like ethics which are more important but which should be left up to the individual to decide for himself/herself, subject to not causing harm to others, which, frankly, my mini skirt does not accomplish, nor does my string bikini), we'll all get along much so much better.
Alright, Putting Canon Star Trek and the whole "Immersion" dilemma aside let's look at this from a realistic perspective.
Would you wear a swimsuit to work?
Do you ever see a Military General wearing nothing but a Speedo to work?
As much as I would love to see that, You wouldn't. Regardless of how people may justify it, people wearing Swimsuits in Earth Space Dock is beyond playable Undine ships and beyond wearing an out of date uniform. It is ridiculous; I hope the Devs fix this before I come back from my Exams I don't want to see Earth space dock turned into a luxury resort and it's hillarious how the same people who complained about the audacity of playable Undine ships are now trying to justify wearing a bathing suit as a uniform for a military organisation.
Do you ever see a Military General wearing nothing but a Speedo to work?
Again, this isn't work.
As much as I would love to see that, You wouldn't. Regardless of how people may justify it, people wearing Swimsuits in Earth Space Dock is beyond playable Undine ships and beyond wearing an out of date uniform. It is ridiculous; I hope the Devs fix this before I come back from my Exams I don't want to see Earth space dock turned into a luxury resort and it's hillarious how the same people who complained about the audacity of playable Undine ships are now trying to justify wearing a bathing suit as a uniform for a military organisation.
Again, it isn't work. It is a game. You know, fun? Escapism? Relaxation?
Alright, Putting Canon Star Trek and the whole "Immersion" dilemma aside let's look at this from a realistic perspective.
Would you wear a swimsuit to work?
Do you ever see a Military General wearing nothing but a Speedo to work?
As much as I would love to see that, You wouldn't. Regardless of how people may justify it, people wearing Swimsuits in Earth Space Dock is beyond playable Undine ships and beyond wearing an out of date uniform. It is ridiculous; I hope the Devs fix this before I come back from my Exams I don't want to see Earth space dock turned into a luxury resort and it's hillarious how the same people who complained about the audacity of playable Undine ships are now trying to justify wearing a bathing suit as a uniform for a military organisation.
Would you wear nothing but a skimpy miniskirt and a gym bra to work?
Do you ever see a Military General wearing nothing but a skimpy miniskirt and gym bra to work?
im a VA with my own command who is you to tell me i cant wear my bikini on MY ship on MY away mission did you get made president of the Romulan Republic?
did any one tell picard your out of uniform when he came from the holodeck to the bridge after a Dixon hill program because he was ummm late?
I personally don't care what they do with the swimsuits but I think they SHOULD be available for the foundry.
if I had the skills, a "Die Hard" foundry mission would rock. Our Heroine is swimming in a holodeck, and somehow the base / ship gets taken over. No weapons no armor no shield, can she save the base from the evil fillintheblank
I personally don't care what they do with the swimsuits but I think they SHOULD be available for the foundry.
if I had the skills, a "Die Hard" foundry mission would rock. Our Heroine is swimming in a holodeck, and somehow the base / ship gets taken over. No weapons no armor no shield, can she save the base from the evil fillintheblank
Sounds like a fun mission to me.
i see theres some swimsuit hates i love dancing on ds9 in mine
Would you wear nothing but a skimpy miniskirt and a gym bra to work?
Do you ever see a Military General wearing nothing but a skimpy miniskirt and gym bra to work?
Your move. :rolleyes:
"Well said. Wasn't that well said, Tess?"
"Had a kind of poetry to it, ma'am."
(Yes, I know the line was originally meant sarcastically. Sue me.)
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I find this whole issue to be mishandled, Cryptic seems far too quick to panic and fold to people screaming at the idea of swimwear even existing and it has resulted in an extremely heavy-handed approach to this situation. Do I consider myself the ultimate authority on a more reasonable approach? Of course not, but I do feel like a quite obvious, more measured method to please both parties was and still is available. So hear me out and if we're lucky, Cryptic will look down upon us mortals and take heed (probably not but we can always hope):
Instead of banning them from everywhere but Risa, why not simply ban them from social hubs (ESD, DS9 etc) and Adventure Zones (New Romulus, Sphere Ground, so on so forth). Anywhere else is either in a mission or an STF, so you should really be focusing on the task at hand (and no, saying you can't look away isn't an excuse, you can, you just choose not to), or it's in a ship interior, a Fleet Holding, a Foundry map etc, where you can only be there if you know the person wearing the bikini personally, be they friend or fleetmate.
You're never going to be in these instances unless you're invited, you don't get to complain about what people wear in a place that doesn't concern you, get over it. No-one's modesty views are important enough to force on people in private, NO-ONE'S.
Besides, don't you think the time spent coding in this restriction could have been better spent? I like what they added to this event, without a doubt, but some really good opportunities were missed. Like how the new Risian Cruiser has a huge panoramic room modelled in on the top of it with what I believe to be something resembling a pool in there. It's obvious a lot of love and attention went into that ship, but there's no custom interior to utilise it. The time spent coding in this arbitrary restriction could have been spent building the code to facilitate a custom interior.
This problem is only exacerbated by how freaking expensive the pieces actually are. Some of these things are 1000 favours, the same price as a Superior Powerboard, and that actually does something. Don't you find this a little expensive for something you can only wear on one map that will only be populated for about a month because we're supposed to think of the children in game that they are legally too young to play because this thing is rated Teen that can account for virtual swimsuits in the first place?
/inhale
And for those crying about immersion, I am a Roleplayer, an avid one in fact. I've roleplayed here, I've roleplayed in other MMOs, I've Roleplayed on boards and even a brief stint in Skype RP. Immersion is much easier to maintain when you start ignoring things that exist solely for the purpose of being a game, that's why we don't RP about rolling for that sweet purple or RP that we got that ship in a lockbox that we unlocked by paying with Zen. In WoW we didn't acknowledge the existence of raids or react to that guy running through the town square to the next vendor to sell off his loot from his last killing spree as he has skyscrapers attached to his shoulders.
Immersion isn't broken by a bikini any more than it's broken by Voth Power Armour. Roleplayers are able to be immersed by ignoring everyone who isn't an RPer, otherwise it'd be wrecked every time someone runs through the instance to play Dabo or vendor off junk. And to top it all off, the talk of modesty feels a bit too holier-than-thou, especially since I've heard (and I wanna preface this by saying I have not had time to research this, college exams do that to you) that the names of the Risian parrots are in fact also found in, of all books, the Kama Sutra.
So if that's ok, whats so reprehensible about swimwear that it warrants all this hassle and strife? Rage about actually pertinent things please, not how much of the texture covering the 3D Model is the same colour as the model's face.
I hope Cryptic reads this, I hope it actually gets them thinking hard over this. I even hope it results in some of the ideas put forth in this post getting implemented because so far, I have found no reasonable argument for such a heavy-handed approach to censorship other than chronic knee-jerking.
I rest my case.
Krovennan Darksabre: Commanding officer of the U.S.S. Blacksabre-E NX-973484-E
I earned my Vet rewards with commitment, not cash.
Would you wear nothing but a skimpy miniskirt and a gym bra to work?
Do you ever see a Military General wearing nothing but a skimpy miniskirt and gym bra to work?
Your move. :rolleyes:
actually, yes! i have the option of working from home, (like today) and in the morning I will dress in work out attire, and in 30 minutes I will take my lunch where I will go for a run. then i will come back, and finish my day
Wow:eek:, so the OP made a thread to point out a bug/exploit to the devs. about something that is not working as intended, then all the well-known whiners on this subject came and turned the thread into another whinefest and it's still whining strong.
Wow:eek:, so the OP made a thread to point out a bug/exploit to the devs. about something that is not working as intended, then all the well-known whiners on this subject came and turned the thread into another whinefest and it's still whining strong.
Here, have some gorgonzolla with it! :rolleyes:
Welcome to the Internet.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Do you ever see a Military General wearing nothing but a Speedo to work?
.
No, but you also don't see them wearing cocktail dresses to work and definataly don't see them wearing the uniform of enemy combatants yet the Formal wear, Voth Armor, Khan Costume, and Mirror Universe sets are a thing.
Yeah they swuim suits are silly but no more than many of the other things people wear.
Sooooo, lol well there's a bug or exploit or has been haxed who knows? But there was a mother grabbin' Gorn in neon pink & blue swim trunks on Drozana Station.
Perhaps he was just standing around being resplendent in his battle shorts
Comments
Is there a "JOHN LUCK PICKERD" here?!
IKS Korrasami (Fleet B'rel Bird of Prey Retrofit T5-U)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_confusion#cite_note-Walsh2007-8
http://www.emeraldinsight.com/journals.htm?articleid=1863326
http://www.marketingcenter.de/lmm/research/publications/download/I17_Walsh_Hennig-Thurau_Mitchell_JMM_2006_proofs.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambiguity_aversion
In short, participation relies on consistent rules.
That can certainly be a reason for banning swimsuits (protecting brand identity, consistency) but the way they're banned or allowed also needs to be consistent. The first issue would be with the consistency of the brand but the second issue would be with the consistency of the game's rules, policies, and design decisions.
The issue being the prevalence of equally unthemely or revealing costumes and party items. This sends an ambiguous message and whether the message is deliberate or not and what the message is go to the heart of the question.
"Because I said so" is an invitation for the consumer to weigh the affinity they have for you against the consistency of your decisions... and it generally only pays off when you arrive at a new kind of consistency.
It's essentially saying, "Trust me. When I'm done, there will be new consistent rules that build on what I'm doing right now." And if that payoff happens, you get loyalty. And if things remain confusing, you attract ill will.
In fact, I think Cryptic constantly shoots themselves in the food by not really explaining aspects of their decisions.
I can understand CBS saying "Swimsuits on Risa only" (although I am skeptical whether that was ever said and I think CBS's requests get distorted or sometimes used as scapegoats for internal decisions). However, the issue is then that Cryptic seems to have inconsistent stances on what can be used where. They could have gone further to be consistent by having similar rules for offduty outfits or party items to avoid looking inconsistent or creating a dissonant impression of what they do and why.
Heck, they have an inconsistent relationship with CBS, admitting that they put the T1 TOS Connie and lockbox ships in despite supposedly strong misgivings from CBS and Van Citters at CBS still cracks jokes at Cryptic's expense about things like airport signage from the old ESD or blue LCARS, indicating those were done over his objections as well. So I'm not even sure that CBS saying "no" means they can't do it or if it means CBS is largely just giving advice (a soft "don't do that if you're smart" as opposed to a hard "no") and will just make fun of them if it backfires.
That's why I compare STO to SW. Because STO has brand loyalty similar to SW -- players will play and fork over money regardless of how topsy-turvy someone's perception of 'immersion' is.
In SW's case there was never any 'new' kind of consistency, considering just how often Lucas made creative decisions that contradicted and made ambiguous previous consistency.
I argue that they don't have to apply new consistent rules. Same as Lucas or any other intellectual property that has allegedly 'done wrong' in terms of immersion and consistency. Loyalty for Star Trek is already established and regardless of what TRIBBLE the creators churn out (like Enterprise, Nemesis, or even the JJ Abrams films), people will still pay money no matter what -- and the creators have grown accustomed to the rabble and have learned to ignore it because they know people wll give them money anyway.
Sometimes, sure. But maybe with a BB gun. A small sting. Maybe a bruise. But nothing seems to rupture an artery or sever a nerve yet, and I doubt this swimsuit issue will be any different. People are still very polarized on the issue.
They have no reason to lie about such a thing. Cryptic has taken plenty of bloody noses from its players (sometimes even justifiably), so there's no reason to try to hide on this kind of decision -- particularly when it's quite evident there might be a financial incentive for them.
Of all the issues Cryptic has stirred up in the past 4 years, of all the controversial decisions made, why would something as trivial and superficial as swimsuits be something to lie about? If I was more unscrupulous of a person, I would have picked far more 'hot button' topics to scapegoat CBS on.
So why would they pick this (or a few other handful of superficial issues)?
Unless, of course, they haven't.
Then it comes down to aesthetics. What is acceptable and what is not. What I might see as acceptable could be very different for someone else. Personally, if I had my way? Everybody would be in the Odyssey outfit 100% of the time they aren't on shore leave.
It also comes down to a technological issue -- this is the first time we've seen Cryptic implement such a restriction, there is certainly the possibility for more to come down the pipe.
And in the end, it is up to Cryptic (and CBS Studios) over what is acceptable and what is not. Everything we have seen thus far is acceptable to them both, the swimsuits are not. So we see a consistent boundary there, yes? We now know for a fact what is not acceptable off-duty uniforms.
CBS Studios has a good relationship with Cryptic. They are the boss, but they give Cryptic a large degree of latitude (like they have with other licensees for the IP), but they will intervene whenever and however they choose. If CBS wants to hardline a particular issue, Cryptic will have to cave -- that is part of the agreement. The fact they choose not to does not mean anything other than a greater degree of artistic freedom given to Cryptic.
However, just like the players and Cryptic, CBS Studios has also compromised with Cryptic on several issues -- for instance the lockbox ships being rare, and unattainable by just anyone. While we may think they are not rare -- they are rare enough to satisfy CBS Studios, even if they may have misgivings.
CBS Studios has intervened to cause Cryptic to remove the ability to color our energy weapons (we used to be able to colorize our energy beams various colors), for instance. Why? Because they can. And apparently they have an idea of immersion that they wanted Cryptic to abide by.
It is not up to us to decide their logic or pattern. Their decisions are ultimately their own and they will explain them if they want to, or they will not.
And it is up to Cryptic and CBS Studios to compromise -- or not. Just like it is up to the players to compromise -- or not. Swimsuits were not going to happen unless they were restricted to certain areas, we knew this years ago. This was a decision where their mind was already made up.
The fact many players do not want to compromise on this (swimsuits are the result of a compromise to begin with), really just deters Cryptic from offering similar features in the future if they will have this particular feedback.
They threw us a bone when we asked for one, and now players don't like the way it tastes.
I would buy that gorn a drink.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
That is obscene!!!!! On a Gorn it should be chartreuse or cerulean, not pink. Have you no decency?
Really? Aw, come one, drawing the immersion card against swimwear?
At least my chars could explain themself that the swimwear wearers outside risa might just have come from the holodeck or a beachside of whatever planet they are on (Beaches on other planets than risa & the holodeck are canon) for a shopping break.
That immersive logic does not work on 50%+ of the legit uniform to be seen daily on ESD and if one swimsuit replaces one of the silly but legit extremes its a massive win on the immersion side.
I think that nothing someone says should be outlawed.
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People want to wear bikinis or swimwear, and not turn ESD into some redlight district, why because CBS assumes that a bikini is in fact lewd attire? Yes, some people would abuse the costume outfit, anymore that nearly every one of them probably also as an Orion girl as well, which a loincloth bikini somehow counts as a Duty Uniform anyway.
In any case, there is no real reason as the Swimwear is its own category that it can just as easily be made available for those who wish to run around.. and do nothing more that what they already do nothing, stilling at ESD.
If the biggest issue for Cryptic is this 'bug', they might want to log in once and a while that there are alot more than that.
If the issue is some sort of canon, I find fighting in a cocktail dress or a suit equally as absurd, or the fact that a female can take off the undershirt for the Khan costume.
Turning places like ESD or whatever into some red-light district when short split skirts, Orion Slave Girls, or even just watch the chat, the game has already gone there a long time ago.
The problem here is that if you worked for the favors, or the items for any other costume, for other events most would expect to want to use even off season. Wherever and whenever.
If the problem is the bikini itself as if some sort of the modesty issue, perhaps the people that would use the bikini as a permanent uniform are not the only people that need to grow up.
If you have a problem with the idea that it should work like any other outfit because it makes you feel all funny, that's your problem.
So we don't want to make or create these red-light districts.. but itll just be created on Risa probably just to spite the fact that everyone is making such a huge issue of it.
I personally am for allowing it off Risa, you earned it, you chose to wear it. The more that CBS and Cryptic makes it a big-deal, the more that certain players will make it far bigger deal.
You are completely right.
But what people dont get it is why he call it "inmersion breaking" lol. As people said, you can fly an undine ship, or a tholian recluse, or place disco balls in space... that is not inmersion breaking but seeing a klingon with a swimsuit is? of course we should report these exploits. But what we dont understand is the thinking of the op.
I cannot fathom how it could be "immersion-breaking" myself. We have armor which does not have to be visible, and personal shields which never seem to be visible (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't recall having ever seen personal shields, that is, the shields used in ground missions, have any visual effects). I have often pointed out to those who, in Fantasy-genre MMOs, would complain about the stereotypical (and seldom actually seen) "chainmail bikini," that both Magic and Illusion are a given in the Fantasy milieu, so that what appears to be a "chainmail bikini" might in fact be a suit of full plate glamoured to look like a "chainmail bikini." Most of the time I'm in a ground mission in STO, I don't pay much attention to what others are wearing, unless it should happen to catch my eye (in which case I generally do nothing more than take a screen shot of it to look at later). I could not care less what others around me are wearing in those situations, because my mind is on the mission, where it should be.
Goodness, someone on ESD / in the First City / at New Romulus Star Command is running around in a bikini. Yeah, so? Are they part of your crew? Are you their Fleet Admiral? If your answer to both of these questions is "No," then it's up to their superior officers to enforce the wearing of a uniform, when they're on duty. ESD has (or did till it was remade, and will eventually have again, according to Dev notes) an off-duty club. Starfleet Academy has a club as well. There's a bar in the First City. There's a balcony at New Romulus Command. Any of these locations ought to be quite open to personnel who are not in uniform, and they are already thus, as you can see any number of off-duty costumes in use in any of them.
I almost went to an interview with an applicant to my fleet while wearing my string bikini; I had been on Risa enjoying a much-needed furlough, along with my Hmnial (Aide-de-Camp) and her beloved. I do not see how my going to my own fleet's starbase to conduct the business of my fleet would be in any way "immersion-breaking" for anyone who is neither a member of my fleet nor an applicant to join my fleet, and the explanation in-character was a rather obvious one: I came directly here from Risa, where I was at liberty.
Honestly, there are enough other things going on in-game which, if you choose to allow them to disturb your groove, will definitely do so far more easily than seeing me in a bikini at New Romulus Star Command (or even, for that matter, in a combat zone). As such, I am left with little choice but to conclude that all this talk of "immersion" in connection with swimwear off Risa is often (if perhaps not always) a cloak for some other objection.
If it's a question of "morality," we have Klingons, Orions, Nausicaans, Gorn, Letheans, Suliban, Acamarians, Romulans, Remans, Vulcans, Bajorans, Humans, Andorians, ... the list goes on. Morality is relative to both time and culture. The Vulcans once had a custom (this is from canon, specifically, VOY episode "Meld") which was a Pagan festival "full of barely clothed Vulcan men and women, covered in slippery Rillan grease, chasing one another." The last date it was observed on Vulcan was well after the proto-Romulans left Vulcan and the teachings of Surak (or the Vulcan establishment's version thereof) were the overwhelmingly dominant philosophy on Vulcan. At one time, followers of a certain religious sect in Germany found the consumption of alcohol perfectly acceptable while they viewed the smoking of tobacco to be morally reprehensible, while members of the same sect in the USA held the exact opposite views on both of those practices. Your morals are your own. Not everyone shares them, and even in cases where there is great similarity of underlying ethical philosophy, the external manifestations thereof may be interpreted differently by different cultures, and different generations, and even different individuals. A case in point from our own culture is the mini skirt. For many people of my generation and the generation before (my older siblings, in fact), the mini skirt was a symbol of women's liberation, of sexual liberation, and of rebellion against the establishment's arbitrary dictates, whereas for some in younger generations, it's viewed as demeaning and objectifying, and those women who wear it are seen as catering to the wishes of the patriarchy. Just a few decades have passed, and even within the same society, which has the same cultural roots, one article of clothing is seen by some as one thing, while the same article of clothing is seen as something else by others -- very incompatible views, both with an ethical component. And these views are not wholly dependent on one's generation; there are people my age and from the previous generation who do not share my perspective on the mini skirt, and there are people from the younger generations who do. The point is that what you view as immoral may not be seen in that way by others.
If it's a matter of aesthetic preference, that's even more relative than morality.
It's an MMORPG. The best MMORPGs, apart from considerations of game mechanics, storyline, and the like, are those in which the players have considerable options for character customization. The more of such options that exist, the more satisfaction for the very diverse player base will exist. When people learn to mind their own business and stop trying to dictate to others what they "should" or "should not" be doing in matters of superficiality such as appearance (or in matters like ethics which are more important but which should be left up to the individual to decide for himself/herself, subject to not causing harm to others, which, frankly, my mini skirt does not accomplish, nor does my string bikini), we'll all get along much so much better.
Would you wear a swimsuit to work?
Do you ever see a Military General wearing nothing but a Speedo to work?
As much as I would love to see that, You wouldn't. Regardless of how people may justify it, people wearing Swimsuits in Earth Space Dock is beyond playable Undine ships and beyond wearing an out of date uniform. It is ridiculous; I hope the Devs fix this before I come back from my Exams I don't want to see Earth space dock turned into a luxury resort and it's hillarious how the same people who complained about the audacity of playable Undine ships are now trying to justify wearing a bathing suit as a uniform for a military organisation.
This isn't work. Or, at least, it shouldn't be!
Again, this isn't work.
Again, it isn't work. It is a game. You know, fun? Escapism? Relaxation?
I'll be sure to use that when someone complains about my Undine Nicor
And you're right, it isn't work, Starfleet is a career.
Would you wear nothing but a skimpy miniskirt and a gym bra to work?
Do you ever see a Military General wearing nothing but a skimpy miniskirt and gym bra to work?
Your move. :rolleyes:
did any one tell picard your out of uniform when he came from the holodeck to the bridge after a Dixon hill program because he was ummm late?
system Lord Baal is dead
if I had the skills, a "Die Hard" foundry mission would rock. Our Heroine is swimming in a holodeck, and somehow the base / ship gets taken over. No weapons no armor no shield, can she save the base from the evil fillintheblank
Sounds like a fun mission to me.
i see theres some swimsuit hates i love dancing on ds9 in mine
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"Had a kind of poetry to it, ma'am."
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Instead of banning them from everywhere but Risa, why not simply ban them from social hubs (ESD, DS9 etc) and Adventure Zones (New Romulus, Sphere Ground, so on so forth). Anywhere else is either in a mission or an STF, so you should really be focusing on the task at hand (and no, saying you can't look away isn't an excuse, you can, you just choose not to), or it's in a ship interior, a Fleet Holding, a Foundry map etc, where you can only be there if you know the person wearing the bikini personally, be they friend or fleetmate.
You're never going to be in these instances unless you're invited, you don't get to complain about what people wear in a place that doesn't concern you, get over it. No-one's modesty views are important enough to force on people in private, NO-ONE'S.
Besides, don't you think the time spent coding in this restriction could have been better spent? I like what they added to this event, without a doubt, but some really good opportunities were missed. Like how the new Risian Cruiser has a huge panoramic room modelled in on the top of it with what I believe to be something resembling a pool in there. It's obvious a lot of love and attention went into that ship, but there's no custom interior to utilise it. The time spent coding in this arbitrary restriction could have been spent building the code to facilitate a custom interior.
This problem is only exacerbated by how freaking expensive the pieces actually are. Some of these things are 1000 favours, the same price as a Superior Powerboard, and that actually does something. Don't you find this a little expensive for something you can only wear on one map that will only be populated for about a month because we're supposed to think of the children in game that they are legally too young to play because this thing is rated Teen that can account for virtual swimsuits in the first place?
/inhale
And for those crying about immersion, I am a Roleplayer, an avid one in fact. I've roleplayed here, I've roleplayed in other MMOs, I've Roleplayed on boards and even a brief stint in Skype RP. Immersion is much easier to maintain when you start ignoring things that exist solely for the purpose of being a game, that's why we don't RP about rolling for that sweet purple or RP that we got that ship in a lockbox that we unlocked by paying with Zen. In WoW we didn't acknowledge the existence of raids or react to that guy running through the town square to the next vendor to sell off his loot from his last killing spree as he has skyscrapers attached to his shoulders.
Immersion isn't broken by a bikini any more than it's broken by Voth Power Armour. Roleplayers are able to be immersed by ignoring everyone who isn't an RPer, otherwise it'd be wrecked every time someone runs through the instance to play Dabo or vendor off junk. And to top it all off, the talk of modesty feels a bit too holier-than-thou, especially since I've heard (and I wanna preface this by saying I have not had time to research this, college exams do that to you) that the names of the Risian parrots are in fact also found in, of all books, the Kama Sutra.
So if that's ok, whats so reprehensible about swimwear that it warrants all this hassle and strife? Rage about actually pertinent things please, not how much of the texture covering the 3D Model is the same colour as the model's face.
I hope Cryptic reads this, I hope it actually gets them thinking hard over this. I even hope it results in some of the ideas put forth in this post getting implemented because so far, I have found no reasonable argument for such a heavy-handed approach to censorship other than chronic knee-jerking.
I rest my case.
I earned my Vet rewards with commitment, not cash.
actually, yes! i have the option of working from home, (like today) and in the morning I will dress in work out attire, and in 30 minutes I will take my lunch where I will go for a run. then i will come back, and finish my day
Here, have some gorgonzolla with it! :rolleyes:
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No, but you also don't see them wearing cocktail dresses to work and definataly don't see them wearing the uniform of enemy combatants yet the Formal wear, Voth Armor, Khan Costume, and Mirror Universe sets are a thing.
Yeah they swuim suits are silly but no more than many of the other things people wear.
Perhaps he was just standing around being resplendent in his battle shorts