If you see my Orion toon, or my Fed character's Orion boff, around the place, you will almost certainly see them fully dressed. The reason being that, in my mind at least, they spend their time going into potentially hazardous situations - alien ecosystems, unfamiliar atmospheres, inclement weather, and above all people shooting at them - where showing lots of bare skin is unwise, not just inappropriate.
This. My KDF's Orion boff goes around in full battle armor.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Right, see, I'm with centersolace on this one. Starfleet officers wearing hodgepodge uniforms from all eras and flying around in Jem'Hadar DNs and Undine frigates? Perfectly fine. Klingon chick in a bikini? Immersion-breaking. :rolleyes:
Do the terms "hypocrisy", "selective perception", or "logical disconnect" ring any bells?
I agree with this so much it almost literally hurts.
"Immersion" is not defined by anyone except CBS Studios and to a lesser extent, Cryptic Studios.
The fans of Star Trek and the players of Star Trek Online do not define what counts as "Immersion". They can have their own various opinions on what "immersion" is and is not, but just like the phrase "Real Star Trek", it is a definition that is not universally agreed-upon by all.
The only definition is the one that the owners of the Star Trek IP and Cryptic Studios says it is. No matter how illogical it might be, it comes down to the simple fact it is a property owned by someone and they decide how it is licensed. Not you, not me, not 'us'.
Clearly this is a bug and must be fixed, and as noted in the dev blogs and elsewhere, the swimwear is not intended to be worn outside of Risa.
Unless anyone here represents the legal owner of the Star Trek intellectual property, it does not matter what your opinion is in regards to the swimwear restrictions in STO. CBS Studios and Cryptic Studios made up their mind on this.
Get over it.
I think you are confusing Immersion with Canon or License Agreements. Either way Immersion is a subjective term and actually it is ONLY decided by the person who would experience it or not.
I think you are confusing Immersion with Canon or License Agreements. Either way Immersion is a subjective term and actually it is ONLY decided by the person who would experience it or not.
It is decided by the person who owns the immersive experience to begin with. This has been the way of intellectual property for ages. They decide how much or how little immersive something is that they license to.
The fans can have their opinions, but they are just opinions and the licensor does not have to agree with them. This has been the case with Star Trek for decades over what Star Trek series, movies, or indiviudal episodes broke the 'immersion' of Star Trek. And it continued with the novels, comics, video games, etc.
They are not obligated to explain their reasoning. They are not obligated to provide logic for their decisions. They are not obligated to convince you or me that something is or is not immervise, and what the limits or boundaries are.
In short, 'immersion' is an emotion, a feeling, a perception. It can not be defined by a universal agreement because we all have tastes and opinions that differ greatly.
If immersion is an emotion, feeling, or perception -- then the only opinion that matters (and thus the only legitimate definition) is the one who owns the immersion to begin with.
Eh, I'm one of those who choose to go about in full modern Starfleet uniforms/armour suits. I'm a Starfleet Officer and half the time I'm in combat so wearing civilian clothing or bikinis isn't practical. But on the other hand who am I to judge what other people wear? I generally tend to ignore them anyway since they're in a mishmash of random outfits/uniforms from random eras.
So why not let other people run around in their swimsuits if it makes them happy? *Shrug.* I don't see what the big deal is. I'm saving up for swimsuits to wear on Risa but that's fine, my characters are on vacation. When they're done they'll don their uniforms once more and go back to saving the galaxy.
It is decided by the person who owns the immersive experience to begin with. This has been the way of intellectual property for ages. They decide how much or how little immersive something is that they license to.
The fans can have their opinions, but they are just opinions and the licensor does not have to agree with them. This has been the case with Star Trek for decades over what Star Trek series, movies, or indiviudal episodes broke the 'immersion' of Star Trek. And it continued with the novels, comics, video games, etc.
They are not obligated to explain their reasoning. They are not obligated to provide logic for their decisions. They are not obligated to convince you or me that something is or is not immervise, and what the limits or boundaries are.
Completely disagree. "Immersion" is in the eye of the beholder, or the experiencer. The IP owner dictates what he wants to go into the experience, that's fine, but whether the experience itself is "immerisve" or not is a judgement call made by the consumer. The IP owner can do whatever they want, and fans can equally dismiss what the IP owner does as non immersive.
Completely disagree. "Immersion" is in the eye of the beholder, or the experiencer. The IP owner dictates what he wants to go into the experience, that's fine, but whether the experience itself is "immerisve" or not is a judgement call made by the consumer. The IP owner can do whatever they want, and fans can equally dismiss what the IP owner does as non immersive.
And in the end, what the fans dismiss as immersive or not immersive is inconsequential to the IP holder. They [the fans] do not make the rulings.
Immersion is an emotion, a feeling, or a perception. The immersion of "Star Trek" can not be universally defined by the fans. What is acceptable to one person as 'immersive' may seem contradictory to another.
Since emotions and feelings can't be universally agreed-upon in regards to something like Star Trek, then whoever owns Star Trek ends up having the only opinion that matters.
And it is up to the fans to either accept it as artistic license by CBS Studios and Cryptic Studios, or to get over it.
Mr Iconians needs to seriously open a dictionary once in a while.
Immersion or an immersive experience is not something that is defined by anyone, it either is or isn't.
And immersion itself is definitely not by any definition whatsoever an emotion.
The same group of people seen doing this in Drozana have been seen with other bugged appearances like mixing STF gear and clothes and uniforms of different factions, so this is not new bug. The only thing new is there is new outfits for them to use their bug with.
It's not an exploit. But, an example of what the state of the game is.
Fed matters more then KDF. When they tested surely they did most with Fed toons. Since that's the main population.
I did no bug to use the swimsuit outside of Risa. I transwarped to Qonos to do the Contraband thing and there it was. But, its' funny this is such a big deal.
I have yet to visit anywhere else. what time I have I do the Risa daily with a couple toons, and Space Missions. So I don't care wether they fix it or not. I spend 90% of this game in space. lol
It is funny that it also shows how few play Fed only. Since they be the ones who cry out OMG! Exploit, etc.
It'ss a KDF, Rom/KDF bug. Buy swimsuit, wear it, Go wherever you want in it. lol
I demand that swim wear be made available in all zones. I like my captain's lean, mean and sexy. Set phasers to "stun"!
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
"Immersion" is not defined by anyone except CBS Studios and to a lesser extent, Cryptic Studios.
The fans of Star Trek and the players of Star Trek Online do not define what counts as "Immersion". They can have their own various opinions on what "immersion" is and is not, but just like the phrase "Real Star Trek", it is a definition that is not universally agreed-upon by all.
The only definition is the one that the owners of the Star Trek IP and Cryptic Studios says it is. No matter how illogical it might be, it comes down to the simple fact it is a property owned by someone and they decide how it is licensed. Not you, not me, not 'us'.
Clearly this is a bug and must be fixed, and as noted in the dev blogs and elsewhere, the swimwear is not intended to be worn outside of Risa.
Unless anyone here represents the legal owner of the Star Trek intellectual property, it does not matter what your opinion is in regards to the swimwear restrictions in STO. CBS Studios and Cryptic Studios made up their mind on this.
Get over it.
I'm sorry but (and I don't mean this sardonically) I'd love to talk to someone in consumer products at any company about how they draft their standards, what kinds of promotions they run, how brands are managed.
That really is my dog in this fight. I don't have a personal interest in wearing swimwear around the game. I'm interested in discussing, debating and, yes, second guessing consumer products policies, branding, and design.
That is really the only valid reason for forums. Anything else would be better handled through blogs and tickets.
What ought to get outlawed is "shut up"/"let it rest"/"I don't care"/"I'm sick of this topic"/"stopo whining" posts on ANY TOPIC, ever. Posters on a forum should have an unlimited tolerance for armchair IP and design quarterbacking. That's what forums are for.
Its too bad STO isnt an RPG, or they could fix this easily with a -50% to armor and shields for wearing off-duty gear.
You dont need armor and shields for social zones.
But then how would my Orion toon fight? That would be a cruel nerf to the KDF!
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Absolutely right. I also believe that forums posters should have endless amounts of tolerance. In fact, posters should be so incredibly tolerant, that they should tell OTHER posters how to post on forums! Phrases like "stop whining"/ "let it rest"/"I don't care" and so on should definitely be banned and outlawed from the forums. That's just one example of my boundless tolerance for forums posting.
Let's all gather around the camp fire, sing kumbaya and make some s'mores.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Absolutely right. I also believe that forums posters should have endless amounts of tolerance. In fact, posters should be so incredibly tolerant, that they should tell OTHER posters how to post on forums! Phrases like "stop whining"/ "let it rest"/"I don't care" and so on should definitely be banned and outlawed from the forums. That's just one example of my boundless tolerance for forums posting.
Well, I agree with your stated position. I'm sure this is probably some example of Poe's Law where I'm the fundamentalist and you're the satirist but, really, tolerance isn't my objective here so much as endless debate is, which I think is, really, what life is about. And if that means some intolerance for exasperation, so be it.
Mr Iconians needs to seriously open a dictionary once in a while.
Immersion or an immersive experience is not something that is defined by anyone, it either is or isn't.
And immersion itself is definitely not by any definition whatsoever an emotion.
You're agreeing with me without actually agreeing with me.
Can immersion be defined by anyone? No.
If it can't be defined, why can't it be defined? Because it is a mental state that inherently varies from person to person.
Emotion can be part of immersion, but not all forms of immersion are emotion exclusively. "Feeling" immersed in Star Trek by definition is an emotive state.
Immersion either is or isn't? Correct. Because it is dependant on the individual to perceive or not perceive.
If something is or isn't, then it needs to be able to be defined. If it can't be defined, but has an absolution of either 'is' or 'is not', then I'm going have to say that's an emotion -- even if you're saying it isn't an emotion.
If it can't be defined, but either exists or does not exist, then the only party who ultimately decides is the property owner. And as intellectual property goes, they have the rights to artistic freedom (or in this case, restriction, which is in of itself a form of artistic freedom) -- without having to abide by any sort of 'logic' or 'illogic' as set by STO players who have different opinions.
The only sense of 'immersion' that matters, is the one that CBS Studios and Cryptic Studios says that matters. It is up to the fans to be immersed or not be immersed. STO's owners as a whole do not have to explain their artistic and development choices if they do not want to.
They explained them in game, on the forums, and in dev blogs. It is up to others to accept it or get over it.
I'm not going to delete or edit my original post. I don't mind being "that guy" in this case because it's really immersion breaking for me to see people walking around space stations in swim trunks.
What I really can't stand is all the people that continue to take advantage of bugged stuff and exploits in this game. They should be perma-banned.
So it's all about you.
Personally, I can't stand the idea of swimsuits/beachwear being worn around spacedock, etc., but I take the adult option and ignore all that, just like I ignore the THOUSANDS of USS EnterpriZes, Kirks, Picards and anyone who flies a USS IM0VR9000 or USS UrMomzHawt. If you're fixating on minor things like swimwear in an area known for weird RP and cybering, then I don't know how you can play this game at all...
You're agreeing with me without actually agreeing with me.
Can immersion be defined by anyone? No.
If it can't be defined, why can't it be defined? Because it is a mental state that inherently varies from person to person.
Emotion can be part of immersion, but not all forms of immersion are emotion exclusively. "Feeling" immersed in Star Trek by definition is an emotive state.
Immersion either is or isn't? Correct. Because it is dependant on the individual to perceive or not perceive.
If something is or isn't, then it needs to be able to be defined. If it can't be defined, but has an absolution of either 'is' or 'is not', then I'm going have to say that's an emotion -- even if you're saying it isn't an emotion.
If it can't be defined, but either exists or does not exist, then the only party who ultimately decides is the property owner. And as intellectual property goes, they have the rights to artistic freedom (or in this case, restriction, which is in of itself a form of artistic freedom) -- without having to abide by any sort of 'logic' or 'illogic' as set by STO players who have different opinions.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. You're going a long way with some assumptions, starting with the one that subjective views are only valid for the person who has already subjectively experienced them.
My take here is that you a coherent and self-consistent policy trumps all.
Second, that while immersion may be subjective, there are fairly consistent standards for what enhances or diminishes immersion. There's academic research on this. It can be polled. It can be measured in percentages and through qualitative data.
Just because something is qualitative and subjective doesn't mean it's invalid. Really, I think it comes down to the consistency of an argument and the quality and coherency of the a priori arguments, not property rights.
Anyone trained in consumer products or marketing is concerned with the appearance of coherency in the eyes of the consumer and actively tries to avoid "because I own it and I say so" dictums.
I'm sorry but (and I don't mean this sardonically)
Don't you have to be a bit laid-back or a little self-aware before you can be sardonic? Just a thought. I don't have David Letterman on speed dial, unfortunately.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. You're going a long way with some assumptions, starting with the one that subjective views are only valid for the person who has already subjectively experienced them.
My take here is that you a coherent and self-consistent policy trumps all.
At the risk of sounding like Lionel Hutz, I'll say that self-consistence is a form of consistence.
Second, that while immersion may be subjective, there are fairly consistent standards for what enhances or diminishes immersion. There's academic research on this. It can be polled. It can be measured in percentages and through qualitative data.
Unless this can be directly applied to an extremely diverse and opinionated group like STO, I'd say that's a cherry-picked study (or series of studies). Furthermore, I'll also argue that even if such a study were made on the STO playerbase as a whole, it ultimately would not matter in terms of actions being taken (or not taken), due to artistic license.
Just because something is qualitative and subjective doesn't mean it's invalid. Really, I think it comes down to the consistency of an argument and the quality and coherency of the a priori arguments, not property rights.
I think it does make it invalid, but I do concede you may have some good points.
Anyone trained in consumer products or marketing is concerned with the appearance of coherency in the eyes of the consumer and actively tries to avoid "because I own it and I say so" dictums.
George Lucas, EA Games (particularly BioWare), and other creators would disagree. They have invoked 'Because I own it and I say so' on numerous occasions without seemingly worse for the wear. People are still buying BioWare games, people are still giving the Star Wars IP money hand-over-foot despite the things George Lucas chose to do with his property.
And in terms of STO, there seem to be enough players saying immersion was already ruined because of this or that, but they still seem to fork over money for zen and play the game. So clearly it is not a matter of such great importance as to affect their profits made.
And it is yet still important enough to CBS Studios or Cryptic Studios as to make this decision in the game -- since they clearly are not as disillusioned with immersion as various players have stated they are. Which brings me back to my original point that their opinion is the only one that matters when it comes to such things.
Comments
This. My KDF's Orion boff goes around in full battle armor.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I agree with this so much it almost literally hurts.
I think you are confusing Immersion with Canon or License Agreements. Either way Immersion is a subjective term and actually it is ONLY decided by the person who would experience it or not.
It is decided by the person who owns the immersive experience to begin with. This has been the way of intellectual property for ages. They decide how much or how little immersive something is that they license to.
The fans can have their opinions, but they are just opinions and the licensor does not have to agree with them. This has been the case with Star Trek for decades over what Star Trek series, movies, or indiviudal episodes broke the 'immersion' of Star Trek. And it continued with the novels, comics, video games, etc.
They are not obligated to explain their reasoning. They are not obligated to provide logic for their decisions. They are not obligated to convince you or me that something is or is not immervise, and what the limits or boundaries are.
In short, 'immersion' is an emotion, a feeling, a perception. It can not be defined by a universal agreement because we all have tastes and opinions that differ greatly.
If immersion is an emotion, feeling, or perception -- then the only opinion that matters (and thus the only legitimate definition) is the one who owns the immersion to begin with.
So why not let other people run around in their swimsuits if it makes them happy? *Shrug.* I don't see what the big deal is. I'm saving up for swimsuits to wear on Risa but that's fine, my characters are on vacation.
Completely disagree. "Immersion" is in the eye of the beholder, or the experiencer. The IP owner dictates what he wants to go into the experience, that's fine, but whether the experience itself is "immerisve" or not is a judgement call made by the consumer. The IP owner can do whatever they want, and fans can equally dismiss what the IP owner does as non immersive.
And in the end, what the fans dismiss as immersive or not immersive is inconsequential to the IP holder. They [the fans] do not make the rulings.
Immersion is an emotion, a feeling, or a perception. The immersion of "Star Trek" can not be universally defined by the fans. What is acceptable to one person as 'immersive' may seem contradictory to another.
Since emotions and feelings can't be universally agreed-upon in regards to something like Star Trek, then whoever owns Star Trek ends up having the only opinion that matters.
And it is up to the fans to either accept it as artistic license by CBS Studios and Cryptic Studios, or to get over it.
Immersion or an immersive experience is not something that is defined by anyone, it either is or isn't.
And immersion itself is definitely not by any definition whatsoever an emotion.
Personally, I'm glad for the opportunity to finally crush those meddlesome Joes.
Shutup Wesley: First In Everything
Don't you know? It's a Gorn exclusive.
http://i.imgur.com/HwZl6jF.png
Fed matters more then KDF. When they tested surely they did most with Fed toons. Since that's the main population.
I did no bug to use the swimsuit outside of Risa. I transwarped to Qonos to do the Contraband thing and there it was. But, its' funny this is such a big deal.
I have yet to visit anywhere else. what time I have I do the Risa daily with a couple toons, and Space Missions. So I don't care wether they fix it or not. I spend 90% of this game in space. lol
It is funny that it also shows how few play Fed only. Since they be the ones who cry out OMG! Exploit, etc.
It'ss a KDF, Rom/KDF bug. Buy swimsuit, wear it, Go wherever you want in it. lol
You dont need armor and shields for social zones.
- Judge Aaron Satie
I'm sorry but (and I don't mean this sardonically) I'd love to talk to someone in consumer products at any company about how they draft their standards, what kinds of promotions they run, how brands are managed.
That really is my dog in this fight. I don't have a personal interest in wearing swimwear around the game. I'm interested in discussing, debating and, yes, second guessing consumer products policies, branding, and design.
That is really the only valid reason for forums. Anything else would be better handled through blogs and tickets.
What ought to get outlawed is "shut up"/"let it rest"/"I don't care"/"I'm sick of this topic"/"stopo whining" posts on ANY TOPIC, ever. Posters on a forum should have an unlimited tolerance for armchair IP and design quarterbacking. That's what forums are for.
Yeah... I've suggested this. Often. It would be consistent and rational, not arbitrary and taste based.
But then how would my Orion toon fight? That would be a cruel nerf to the KDF!
- Judge Aaron Satie
Okay. You're using a different method than I am. Tell me how you do this in a PM and I'll tell you how I do it.
Expand the Orion species trait to negate the penalty.
Let's all gather around the camp fire, sing kumbaya and make some s'mores.
- Judge Aaron Satie
Well, I agree with your stated position. I'm sure this is probably some example of Poe's Law where I'm the fundamentalist and you're the satirist but, really, tolerance isn't my objective here so much as endless debate is, which I think is, really, what life is about. And if that means some intolerance for exasperation, so be it.
You're agreeing with me without actually agreeing with me.
Can immersion be defined by anyone? No.
If it can't be defined, why can't it be defined? Because it is a mental state that inherently varies from person to person.
Emotion can be part of immersion, but not all forms of immersion are emotion exclusively. "Feeling" immersed in Star Trek by definition is an emotive state.
Immersion either is or isn't? Correct. Because it is dependant on the individual to perceive or not perceive.
If something is or isn't, then it needs to be able to be defined. If it can't be defined, but has an absolution of either 'is' or 'is not', then I'm going have to say that's an emotion -- even if you're saying it isn't an emotion.
If it can't be defined, but either exists or does not exist, then the only party who ultimately decides is the property owner. And as intellectual property goes, they have the rights to artistic freedom (or in this case, restriction, which is in of itself a form of artistic freedom) -- without having to abide by any sort of 'logic' or 'illogic' as set by STO players who have different opinions.
The only sense of 'immersion' that matters, is the one that CBS Studios and Cryptic Studios says that matters. It is up to the fans to be immersed or not be immersed. STO's owners as a whole do not have to explain their artistic and development choices if they do not want to.
They explained them in game, on the forums, and in dev blogs. It is up to others to accept it or get over it.
This year's styles are so fabulous!
Shutup Wesley: First In Everything
Personally, I can't stand the idea of swimsuits/beachwear being worn around spacedock, etc., but I take the adult option and ignore all that, just like I ignore the THOUSANDS of USS EnterpriZes, Kirks, Picards and anyone who flies a USS IM0VR9000 or USS UrMomzHawt. If you're fixating on minor things like swimwear in an area known for weird RP and cybering, then I don't know how you can play this game at all...
Whoa, whoa, whoa. You're going a long way with some assumptions, starting with the one that subjective views are only valid for the person who has already subjectively experienced them.
My take here is that you a coherent and self-consistent policy trumps all.
Second, that while immersion may be subjective, there are fairly consistent standards for what enhances or diminishes immersion. There's academic research on this. It can be polled. It can be measured in percentages and through qualitative data.
Just because something is qualitative and subjective doesn't mean it's invalid. Really, I think it comes down to the consistency of an argument and the quality and coherency of the a priori arguments, not property rights.
Anyone trained in consumer products or marketing is concerned with the appearance of coherency in the eyes of the consumer and actively tries to avoid "because I own it and I say so" dictums.
Don't you have to be a bit laid-back or a little self-aware before you can be sardonic? Just a thought. I don't have David Letterman on speed dial, unfortunately.
At the risk of sounding like Lionel Hutz, I'll say that self-consistence is a form of consistence.
Unless this can be directly applied to an extremely diverse and opinionated group like STO, I'd say that's a cherry-picked study (or series of studies). Furthermore, I'll also argue that even if such a study were made on the STO playerbase as a whole, it ultimately would not matter in terms of actions being taken (or not taken), due to artistic license.
I think it does make it invalid, but I do concede you may have some good points.
George Lucas, EA Games (particularly BioWare), and other creators would disagree. They have invoked 'Because I own it and I say so' on numerous occasions without seemingly worse for the wear. People are still buying BioWare games, people are still giving the Star Wars IP money hand-over-foot despite the things George Lucas chose to do with his property.
And in terms of STO, there seem to be enough players saying immersion was already ruined because of this or that, but they still seem to fork over money for zen and play the game. So clearly it is not a matter of such great importance as to affect their profits made.
And it is yet still important enough to CBS Studios or Cryptic Studios as to make this decision in the game -- since they clearly are not as disillusioned with immersion as various players have stated they are. Which brings me back to my original point that their opinion is the only one that matters when it comes to such things.