Like to make assumptions about others don't you mate? Such as the assumption that I'm attacking your points, you probably assume I'm an avid kdf player as well I guess.
From the way you claimed the KDF raptor lost shields for its cloaks, you clearly did not read my post on just the previous page pointing out that raptors had more Hull to compensate for lower shields, and that it had nothing to do with cloak. It was a very specific point I made that you did not seem aware of -- thus, the assumption that you didn't read the rest of the thread (or skimmed, at best) was fairly logical.
Seems like you're the one assuming things about me being an ******* though.
The CBS mandate thing is something I recall reading years ago, trying to find a link now would be next to impossible and frankly id rather not spend the time needed to find it. It may even be well out of date by now in regards to what CBS let cryptic do, I only brought it up as a potential reason for why the cloaks are consoles now.
There's absolutely no assumptions on my part here -- you said something, and I only asked for evidence (not to mention, your wording made it sound like fact, rather than a guess). Without a link, we can't really say for certain what Cryptic's position is... so it's not really worth bringing up as a point against integrating FED cloaks. It's a waste of time to try and guess what's going on behind Cryptic's closed doors.
hell the gal-x had its cloak integrated originally, pretty sure they only made it a console with the release of the defiant refit. but then unlike the defiant the gal-x is the only canon fed ship shown to have a federation cloak, the defiant used a borrowed rommie one.
Of course the reason the gal-x had a cloak in all good things was becuase of the war with the klingons and im pretty sure it was mentioned that the rommies had been all but wiped out in that future too... so with that in mind I can certainly see why some people would advocate that the feds not having cloaking tech in 2409 is TRIBBLE.
Again, I've also pointed out in this thread that Cryptic has left canon behind a long time ago. Arguing "because that's how it was" is pointless... otherwise, FED cruisers would have 12+ phaser arrays (and only phasers), multiple torpedo launchers (with limited number of torpedoes), and there wouldn't be 20-something Orion Starfleet Admirals wearing hot pink halter tops and short skirts.
I'm only talking about the Defiant's cloak from a gameplay balance perspective. No KDF ship pays for its cloak (I've said this and proved it numerous times), no ROM ship pays for its battle cloak, so no FED ship should have to pay for its cloak.
From the way you claimed the KDF raptor lost shields for its cloaks, you clearly did not read my post on just the previous page pointing out that raptors had more Hull to compensate for lower shields, and that it had nothing to do with cloak. It was a very specific point I made that you did not seem aware of -- thus, the assumption that you didn't read the rest of the thread (or skimmed, at best) was fairly logical.
Seems like you're the one assuming things about me being an ******* though.
There's absolutely no assumptions on my part here -- you said something, and I only asked for evidence (not to mention, your wording made it sound like fact, rather than a guess). Without a link, we can't really say for certain what Cryptic's position is... so it's not really worth bringing up as a point against integrating FED cloaks. It's a waste of time to try and guess what's going on behind Cryptic's closed doors.
Again, I've also pointed out in this thread that Cryptic has left canon behind a long time ago. Arguing "because that's how it was" is pointless... otherwise, FED cruisers would have 12+ phaser arrays (and only phasers), multiple torpedo launchers (with limited number of torpedoes), and there wouldn't be 20-something Orion Starfleet Admirals wearing hot pink halter tops and short skirts.
I'm only talking about the Defiant's cloak from a gameplay balance perspective. No KDF ship pays for its cloak (I've said this and proved it numerous times), no ROM ship pays for its battle cloak, so no FED ship should have to pay for its cloak.
Pure TRIBBLE. You've no more proven your point then you've demanded others prove theirs and by their point of view they have. Stop trying to ram it down our throats with your rectitude. You haven't even given the benefit of the doubt or have twisted words to your own benefit.
But so has the other side. Frankly it's a moot point far as i am concerned.
But riddle me this, why would you want to further INCREASE power creep when so many people are screaming bloody murder about it? Answer me that.
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Am I the only one here that thinks the devs should ignore the OP's comments about the Defiant and instead give the Scimitar flanking? Because the Scimi totally needs a buff! amirite?
Pure TRIBBLE. You've no more proven your point then you've demanded others prove theirs and by their point of view they have. Stop trying to ram it down our throats with your rectitude. You haven't even given the benefit of the doubt or have twisted words to your own benefit.
But so has the other side. Frankly it's a moot point far as i am concerned.
But riddle me this, why would you want to further INCREASE power creep when so many people are screaming bloody murder about it? Answer me that.
I have put the stats for KDF and FED ships right out there and shown how they're balanced. I have shown the Mogh and the Avenger, which are two identical ships, except the Mogh has an integrated cloak where the Avenger needs a console purchased from another C-Store ship.
How is that not absolute proof that cloaks aren't budgeted into KDF ship stats?
The only argument against my point is people pointing to raptors, saying they have gimped stats because of their cloak. I've shown that they have a different arrangement of stats, but aren't necessarily inferior to the FTER, while still receiving cloaks that aren't budgeted away from other stats.
Mogh is, unless you missed it a battlecruiser. The devs have flat out stated that the klingon battlecruisers don't pay for the cloak, course this was also stated before the feds even had a battlecruiser in the avenger.
I have put the stats for KDF and FED ships right out there and shown how they're balanced. I have shown the Mogh and the Avenger, which are two identical ships, except the Mogh has an integrated cloak where the Avenger needs a console purchased from another C-Store ship.
How is that not absolute proof that cloaks aren't budgeted into KDF ship stats?
The only argument against my point is people pointing to raptors, saying they have gimped stats because of their cloak. I've shown that they have a different arrangement of stats, but aren't necessarily inferior to the FTER, while still receiving cloaks that aren't budgeted away from other stats.
What more proof could you possibly need?
Ever flown a raptor? Try flying one then compare to a defiant. Defiant is a vastly superior machine, even if it had no cloak at all. Called defiant has 5, call it 5 tac consoles. Not one raptor, BoP has that kind of firepower frontally. That's the trade off among other things as to why defiant doesn't have an integrated cloak.
Want a cloak, give up a tac console. Otherwise, defiant is good as is. That's the balance right there.
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Mogh is, unless you missed it a battlecruiser. The devs have flat out stated that the klingon battlecruisers don't pay for the cloak, course this was also stated before the feds even had a battlecruiser in the avenger.
And raptors? Fleet Raptors that have higher Hull, higher Shield Modifiers, 1-2 points less TR, and integrated cloaks, as opposed to the FTER that has less hull, lower SM, 17 TR, and a cloak that uses up a console slot?
The Fleet Raptors have differently laid out stats, but aren't mathematically worse (such as, for example, the Aquarius compared to the Defiant). Their cloaks don't take anything away from them. Neither do the ROM battle cloaks on the Ha'feh, Ar'kif, and Dhelan.
Ever flown a raptor? Try flying one then compare to a defiant. Defiant is a vastly superior machine, even if it had no cloak at all. Called defiant has 5, call it 5 tac consoles. Not one raptor, BoP has that kind of firepower frontally. That's the trade off among other things as to why defiant doesn't have an integrated cloak.
Then your problem is with the stat arrangements on the raptor. Whether or not they're better ships, they still aren't using up their stat budget for cloaks. That's my whole point -- they still have 10 consoles, more health, more shields, and their cloak. The stats may not be what you want them to be, but that doesn't mean they've given anything up for their shields... they're just a poor ship to you.
Again, look at ROM 5-tac console ships. They've got 5 tac consoles, still can hit 125 weapon power, and receive a higher Ambush bonus than KDF or FED cloaks. "That's the balance right there."
And raptors? Fleet Raptors that have higher Hull, higher Shield Modifiers, 1-2 points less TR, and integrated cloaks, as opposed to the FTER that has less hull, lower SM, 17 TR, and a cloak that uses up a console slot?
The Fleet Raptors have differently laid out stats, but aren't mathematically worse (such as, for example, the Aquarius compared to the Defiant). Their cloaks don't take anything away from them. Neither do the ROM battle cloaks on the Ha'feh, Ar'kif, and Dhelan.
Then your problem is with the stat arrangements on the raptor. Whether or not they're better ships, they still aren't using up their stat budget for cloaks. That's my whole point -- they still have 10 consoles, more health, more shields, and their cloak. The stats may not be what you want them to be, but that doesn't mean they've given anything up for their shields... they're just a poor ship to you.
Again, look at ROM 5-tac console ships. They've got 5 tac consoles, still can hit 125 weapon power, and receive a higher Ambush bonus than KDF or FED. "That's the balance right there."
Hey I agree with the romulans being stronger than both. But that's neither here nor there. We're talking KDF vs Star Fleet. Raptor vs Defiant. Reason we don't have a 5 tac console raptor. BECAUSE THE RAPTOR HAS AN INTEGRATED CLOAK. That was the reason. Then ofcourse power creep happened, the romulans came out with battle cloak for everything, 5 tac console ships with sigularites which TRIBBLE on the other 2 factions.
Don't have to sell me on the fact the romulans need some abilites taken away. Hell i got 2 characters per faction and I feel the romulans don't need all the goodies they got.
Tell ya what, day they introduce a tac carrier for the KDF and put in a 5 tac console raptor, you can have your integrated cloak on the defiant. Though frankly rather not because then we are simply flying cookie cutter cut outs instead of different factions with different abilities.
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Really the Battle cloak debate, I am a DS9 fan, I fly the Fleet defiant. I understand why the cloak is not integrated.
Because it is not the end all be all of ship combat. the Defiant has Speed, vicious cannons, can easily get past 40k hit points on C-store and Fleet, its a damn fine ship, and the Only ship besides the Original 1701 with a purchasable unique interior.
KDF don't get the rotarran bridge.
Battle Cloak, only matters because players get panicked when ambushed, and outside of Ker'rkat that cant't happen in the game.
My Romulan characters have been killed under cloak, My Fed rom, dropped the D'drex at for the Sao Paulo murdered Elachi she once struggled with.
How many players KDF side have had a Keldon Class blow their B'rel out from under them because they didn't pay attention and it had it's torp overload up?
Or they Romulan captains cloak a Little to close to the gate, and get pasted into the red, for flat out destroyed. I have 2 feds, 1 fed rom, 1 KDF rom(My get the Ax for a KLink character), and one KDF.
I honestly don't see the big deal with claoks? The Ambush DPS buff is great, besides that I don't think they are all that useful. Battle Cloak gets my Rom's Killed more than anything else.
Speed seems the name of the game far more than cloaking in my experience. All power to engines + evasive maneuver on a KDF raider watch the defense go triple digit.
Hey I agree with the romulans being stronger than both. But that's neither here nor there. We're talking KDF vs Star Fleet. Raptor vs Defiant. Reason we don't have a 5 tac console raptor. BECAUSE THE RAPTOR HAS AN INTEGRATED CLOAK. That was the reason. Then ofcourse power creep happened, the romulans came out with battle cloak for everything, 5 tac console ships with sigularites which TRIBBLE on the other 2 factions.
Don't have to sell me on the fact the romulans need some abilites taken away. Hell i got 2 characters per faction and I feel the romulans don't need all the goodies they got.
Tell ya what, day they introduce a tac carrier for the KDF and put in a 5 tac console raptor, you can have your integrated cloak on the defiant. Though frankly rather not because then we are simply flying cookie cutter cut outs instead of different factions with different abilities.
I have to say, I feel the need. the need for speed. that what Feds and Klinks got over romulan ships. The defiant dances, the B'rel is a hyperactive killer gerbil, romulan ships all come off as sluggish in comparison.
I don't fly the T'varo but from what I have seen of them in STF's they don't impress, neither does tactical carrier(?). I have never seen either of them speed tank.
I have to say, I feel the need. the need for speed. that what Feds and Klinks got over romulan ships. The defiant dances, the B'rel is a hyperactive killer gerbil, romulan ships all come off as sluggish in comparison.
I don't fly the T'varo but from what I have seen of them in STF's they don't impress, neither does tactical carrier(?). I have never seen either of them speed tank.
They gave up speed. Big whoop, what they got in return, more than makes up for it.
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Hey I agree with the romulans being stronger than both. But that's neither here nor there. We're talking KDF vs Star Fleet. Raptor vs Defiant. Reason we don't have a 5 tac console raptor. BECAUSE THE RAPTOR HAS AN INTEGRATED CLOAK. That was the reason. Then ofcourse power creep happened, the romulans came out with battle cloak for everything, 5 tac console ships with sigularites which TRIBBLE on the other 2 factions.
Don't have to sell me on the fact the romulans need some abilites taken away. Hell i got 2 characters per faction and I feel the romulans don't need all the goodies they got.
Tell ya what, day they introduce a tac carrier for the KDF and put in a 5 tac console raptor, you can have your integrated cloak on the defiant. Though frankly rather not because then we are simply flying cookie cutter cut outs instead of different factions with different abilities.
I've been talking about Romulans this whole time. Romulans are the reason so many people keep bringing this up now, because they brought a bunch of 5-tac battle cloaking ships (with improved ambush) into the game while the FEDs still need to use up a console slot for their regular cloaks.
If you want a 5-tac Raptor, then ask Cryptic for one. I wouldn't be against the KDF getting it. Go make a thread, point out how the KDF is lacking in 5-tac console ships and needs more.
To be fair though, that 5th tac console is not all its cracked up to be -- it only boosts base damage, not overall damage, which is way less than people think. It's not bad, but it's not crazy bananas amazing either.
But taking the game balance as a whole -- FED, KDF, ROM -- forcing the Feds to use up a console slot for their cloaks when no other ship in the game pays such a price for it is extremely antiquated. It made some sense back when it was first introduced, but makes no sense in the present state of the game.
I have to say, I feel the need. the need for speed. that what Feds and Klinks got over romulan ships. The defiant dances, the B'rel is a hyperactive killer gerbil, romulan ships all come off as sluggish in comparison.
I don't fly the T'varo but from what I have seen of them in STF's they don't impress, neither does tactical carrier(?). I have never seen either of them speed tank.
What are you talking about? Defiant base turn rate is 17, T'varo base turn rate is 18. They have the same .20 impulse mod.
What are you talking about? Defiant base turn rate is 17, T'varo base turn rate is 18. They have the same .20 impulse mod.
Since Romulan ships have less system power, it's likely that ROM players fly with less Engine power. At present, Engine power translates directly into speed and turn rate.
This could be the reason Rom ships appear slower than other ships. I've seen a lot of them wish they could use a M/AM core instead of a Singularity core, as many seem to feel like the Singularity powers aren't worth the decrease in systems power.
They gave up speed. Big whoop, what they got in return, more than makes up for it.
May be it different for me, I see more singularity core detonations than I see warp core detonations.
Cruiser or escort I will Fly with any Klink or Fed, long before I fly with a rom team mate(If given a choice) Their ships or their captains don't seem to be able to take the heat.
Went to sleep, woke up, checked this thread again. *facepalm* Some 5+ pages of utter ignorance, dare I even say - stupidity!
How little knowledge there is about basic game mechanics in this tread, combined with the high amount of missinformation is shocking, even by 'Federation Shipyards" standards. :eek:
Some of you guys really need to visit the PvP section more often, PvP may be broken but those guys there know their stuff, maybe you'll learn something and have a laugh at yourselves afterwards when you realize the points you tried to make.
I'm betting devs. are reading this and laughing their asses off looking at all the "evidence" used to make point in this discussion.
Went to sleep, woke up, checked this thread again. *facepalm* Some 5+ pages of utter ignorance, dare I even say - stupidity!
How little knowledge there is about basic game mechanics in this tread, combined with the high amount of missinformation is shocking, even by 'Federation Shipyards" standards. :eek:
Some of you guys really need to visit the PvP section more often, PvP may be broken but those guys there know their stuff, maybe you'll learn something and have a laugh at yourselves afterwards when you realize the points you tried to make.
I'm betting devs. are reading this and laughing their asses off looking at all the "evidence" used to make point in this discussion.
probably true. I'm merely pointing out the likely old reason before the romulans came out was the fact that because of the tac consoles the defiant got, it got no integrated cloak. But since roms came out and well dumped all over everything well...that went out the window!
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
Went to sleep, woke up, checked this thread again. *facepalm* Some 5+ pages of utter ignorance, dare I even say - stupidity!
How little knowledge there is about basic game mechanics in this tread, combined with the high amount of missinformation is shocking, even by 'Federation Shipyards" standards. :eek:
Some of you guys really need to visit the PvP section more often, PvP may be broken but those guys there know their stuff, maybe you'll learn something and have a laugh at yourselves afterwards when you realize the points you tried to make.
I'm betting devs. are reading this and laughing their asses off looking at all the "evidence" used to make point in this discussion.
PVP? because that's the beginning and end of a game right?
You can't be attacked in sector space, or on missions by other players, PVP takes place in arenas, except this one system and you are never forced to go there. How are pvp discussions relevant to to any game play besides pvp game play.
especially in all the mmo's I have played 90% of "invisible man" beef stems from ******** and its Rogues. NPC's don't care if you have a cloak because they don't panic, they tend to hit hard, and have a high amount of hp.
addendum the unmentionable game is literally unmentionable.
Nice touch on the klingon side if it is not to much to ask jam jams could you consider upgrading the Defiant classes, because I believe a lot of Feds who are flying these ships still asked to integrate the cloak console and a battle cloak, also what we would love is a bit more hit points to the refit and the fleet version of the defiant classes.
Defiant users may set their thoughts here...
The Defiant is just fine as is...I guess you didn't get the Fleet version, yet.
5 Tac consoles.
Nuff said.
NO to ARC RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
PVP? because that's the beginning and end of a game right?
You can't be attacked in sector space, or on missions by other players, PVP takes place in arenas, except this one system and you are never forced to go there. How are pvp discussions relevant to to any game play besides pvp game play.
especially in all the mmo's I have played 90% of "invisible man" beef stems from ******** and its Rogues. NPC's don't care if you have a cloak because they don't panic, they tend to hit hard, and have a high amount of hp.
addendum the unmentionable game is literally unmentionable.
In the words of our former Community Manager: "Reading is OP!" :rolleyes:
I already said that PvP is broken in the post you quoted. I referred people to visit the PvP forums because there are players that really know their stuff and from whom one can really learn a lot about the game machanics of STO. Regardless of the state and relevance of PvP in STO, the people that play it have excellent knowledge and understanding of the mechanics, and most of them are willing to share it and give advice. I have learned a lot myslef from their threads.
And in case you haven't noticed (genuinely, not being snarky here) this entire discussion is with a PvP premise. Because why on Earth would people complain that a KDF or Romulan ship has "unfair advantages" while fighting NPCs, amirite?
I've said this before, it's laughable really - when it comes to gaining something they want for themselves, people on the forum all behave like the most experienced PvPers that do PvP on daily basis. However when nerfs and balance passes come to town, then - PvP sucks, noone plays PvP, PvP should be deleted, PvPers are responsible for everything bad in STO, etc.
The Defiant had integrated cloak when it was first released in Cstore. That was changed at the playerbase request later, well before the fleet version of any ship came along.
In the words of our former Community Manager: "Reading is OP!" :rolleyes:
I already said that PvP is broken in the post you quoted. I referred people to visit the PvP forums because there are players that really know their stuff and from whom one can really learn a lot about the game machanics of STO. Regardless of the state and relevance of PvP in STO, the people that play it have excellent knowledge and understanding of the mechanics, and most of them are willing to share it and give advice. I have learned a lot myslef from their threads.
And in case you haven't noticed (genuinely, not being snarky here) this entire discussion is with a PvP premise. Because why on Earth would people complain that a KDF or Romulan ship has "unfair advantages" while fighting NPCs, amirite?
I've said this before, it's laughable really - when it comes to gaining something they want for themselves, people on the forum all behave like the most experienced PvPers that do PvP on daily basis. However when nerfs and balance passes come to town, then - PvP sucks, noone plays PvP, PvP should be deleted, PvPers are responsible for everything bad in STO, etc.
I say no, PVP don't know there stuff, because pvp only matter in PVP not PVE which most of this game is. That's the only issue with your post. Its a personal gripe with MMO communities in general. that and stat worshiping and Biggar! NUMBARZ chasing.
I may experience, Klingon space is filled with Vo'quv carriers...which can't cloak, Jem Hadar bug fighters and Dreadnoughts, which are not easy to get are very popular, which don't cloak.
The Jem'Hadar fighter which while no longer the king of escorts is still very good, can't cloak.
The naussican ship with the disruptor lance, can't cloak but thoes who fly them seem to sware by them.
I have read people praise the cardassian Galor cruiser, which can't cloak.
And while some say Romulan singularity powers make them OP, I see lots of Adapted Tal'Shiar in orbit on New Romulus, which don't have singularity powers.
It is said in every mmo pvp is broken, and maybe I have lost respect for the very concept. I find PVP to basically enforce cardboard cut out builds, kill explorations (In games that have world pvp) and basicly be pointless except frustrating players.
I find PVP so toxic I don't even engage in it, from Guildwars(Still play) to kotor(quit), to the Unmentionable mmo(quit).
I last engaged in Ker'kat I tangled with "I Pwn you Down" I appreciated his skill with his B'rel. Found it inspiring. A fed in a Oddy just started cursing the fact that he was speed tanking, complaining. It was the first time I had been to Ker'kat since Captain rank, I completed the story on my main And rom science officer alt, got my first KDF to 50. So it had been a while.
Got so sick of the attitude I warped out haven't been back since.
There are some gems in PVP but I find it brings out the worst in players.
probably true. I'm merely pointing out the likely old reason before the romulans came out was the fact that because of the tac consoles the defiant got, it got no integrated cloak. But since roms came out and well dumped all over everything well...that went out the window!
Of course, this thread is about Raiders & flanking, as have been multiple other "discussions" about how the Defiant should flank (AND Battle Cloak) like a KDF Raider.
There's a fundamental lack of understanding about what a KDF Raider is in these threads, and confusion with the KDF Raptors.
Yeah, Romulans can Battle Cloak, but this seems to be a major Defiant problem... not a Qin, Somraw, Vor'cha, or Mogh issue.
I don't look at the Ar'kif and honestly say that my B'rel should get a hangar. It's a joke, people! (I do LOVE my Ar'kif on my Romulan Tac, though.) And yet these Defiant threads are a different kind of joke.
Comments
From the way you claimed the KDF raptor lost shields for its cloaks, you clearly did not read my post on just the previous page pointing out that raptors had more Hull to compensate for lower shields, and that it had nothing to do with cloak. It was a very specific point I made that you did not seem aware of -- thus, the assumption that you didn't read the rest of the thread (or skimmed, at best) was fairly logical.
Seems like you're the one assuming things about me being an ******* though.
There's absolutely no assumptions on my part here -- you said something, and I only asked for evidence (not to mention, your wording made it sound like fact, rather than a guess). Without a link, we can't really say for certain what Cryptic's position is... so it's not really worth bringing up as a point against integrating FED cloaks. It's a waste of time to try and guess what's going on behind Cryptic's closed doors.
Again, I've also pointed out in this thread that Cryptic has left canon behind a long time ago. Arguing "because that's how it was" is pointless... otherwise, FED cruisers would have 12+ phaser arrays (and only phasers), multiple torpedo launchers (with limited number of torpedoes), and there wouldn't be 20-something Orion Starfleet Admirals wearing hot pink halter tops and short skirts.
I'm only talking about the Defiant's cloak from a gameplay balance perspective. No KDF ship pays for its cloak (I've said this and proved it numerous times), no ROM ship pays for its battle cloak, so no FED ship should have to pay for its cloak.
But so has the other side. Frankly it's a moot point far as i am concerned.
But riddle me this, why would you want to further INCREASE power creep when so many people are screaming bloody murder about it? Answer me that.
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http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
I have put the stats for KDF and FED ships right out there and shown how they're balanced. I have shown the Mogh and the Avenger, which are two identical ships, except the Mogh has an integrated cloak where the Avenger needs a console purchased from another C-Store ship.
How is that not absolute proof that cloaks aren't budgeted into KDF ship stats?
The only argument against my point is people pointing to raptors, saying they have gimped stats because of their cloak. I've shown that they have a different arrangement of stats, but aren't necessarily inferior to the FTER, while still receiving cloaks that aren't budgeted away from other stats.
What more proof could you possibly need?
Ever flown a raptor? Try flying one then compare to a defiant. Defiant is a vastly superior machine, even if it had no cloak at all. Called defiant has 5, call it 5 tac consoles. Not one raptor, BoP has that kind of firepower frontally. That's the trade off among other things as to why defiant doesn't have an integrated cloak.
Want a cloak, give up a tac console. Otherwise, defiant is good as is. That's the balance right there.
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http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
And raptors? Fleet Raptors that have higher Hull, higher Shield Modifiers, 1-2 points less TR, and integrated cloaks, as opposed to the FTER that has less hull, lower SM, 17 TR, and a cloak that uses up a console slot?
The Fleet Raptors have differently laid out stats, but aren't mathematically worse (such as, for example, the Aquarius compared to the Defiant). Their cloaks don't take anything away from them. Neither do the ROM battle cloaks on the Ha'feh, Ar'kif, and Dhelan.
Then your problem is with the stat arrangements on the raptor. Whether or not they're better ships, they still aren't using up their stat budget for cloaks. That's my whole point -- they still have 10 consoles, more health, more shields, and their cloak. The stats may not be what you want them to be, but that doesn't mean they've given anything up for their shields... they're just a poor ship to you.
Again, look at ROM 5-tac console ships. They've got 5 tac consoles, still can hit 125 weapon power, and receive a higher Ambush bonus than KDF or FED cloaks. "That's the balance right there."
Hey I agree with the romulans being stronger than both. But that's neither here nor there. We're talking KDF vs Star Fleet. Raptor vs Defiant. Reason we don't have a 5 tac console raptor. BECAUSE THE RAPTOR HAS AN INTEGRATED CLOAK. That was the reason. Then ofcourse power creep happened, the romulans came out with battle cloak for everything, 5 tac console ships with sigularites which TRIBBLE on the other 2 factions.
Don't have to sell me on the fact the romulans need some abilites taken away. Hell i got 2 characters per faction and I feel the romulans don't need all the goodies they got.
Tell ya what, day they introduce a tac carrier for the KDF and put in a 5 tac console raptor, you can have your integrated cloak on the defiant. Though frankly rather not because then we are simply flying cookie cutter cut outs instead of different factions with different abilities.
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http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
Because it is not the end all be all of ship combat. the Defiant has Speed, vicious cannons, can easily get past 40k hit points on C-store and Fleet, its a damn fine ship, and the Only ship besides the Original 1701 with a purchasable unique interior.
KDF don't get the rotarran bridge.
Battle Cloak, only matters because players get panicked when ambushed, and outside of Ker'rkat that cant't happen in the game.
My Romulan characters have been killed under cloak, My Fed rom, dropped the D'drex at for the Sao Paulo murdered Elachi she once struggled with.
How many players KDF side have had a Keldon Class blow their B'rel out from under them because they didn't pay attention and it had it's torp overload up?
Or they Romulan captains cloak a Little to close to the gate, and get pasted into the red, for flat out destroyed. I have 2 feds, 1 fed rom, 1 KDF rom(My get the Ax for a KLink character), and one KDF.
I honestly don't see the big deal with claoks? The Ambush DPS buff is great, besides that I don't think they are all that useful. Battle Cloak gets my Rom's Killed more than anything else.
Speed seems the name of the game far more than cloaking in my experience. All power to engines + evasive maneuver on a KDF raider watch the defense go triple digit.
I have to say, I feel the need. the need for speed. that what Feds and Klinks got over romulan ships. The defiant dances, the B'rel is a hyperactive killer gerbil, romulan ships all come off as sluggish in comparison.
I don't fly the T'varo but from what I have seen of them in STF's they don't impress, neither does tactical carrier(?). I have never seen either of them speed tank.
They gave up speed. Big whoop, what they got in return, more than makes up for it.
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http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
I've been talking about Romulans this whole time. Romulans are the reason so many people keep bringing this up now, because they brought a bunch of 5-tac battle cloaking ships (with improved ambush) into the game while the FEDs still need to use up a console slot for their regular cloaks.
If you want a 5-tac Raptor, then ask Cryptic for one. I wouldn't be against the KDF getting it. Go make a thread, point out how the KDF is lacking in 5-tac console ships and needs more.
To be fair though, that 5th tac console is not all its cracked up to be -- it only boosts base damage, not overall damage, which is way less than people think. It's not bad, but it's not crazy bananas amazing either.
But taking the game balance as a whole -- FED, KDF, ROM -- forcing the Feds to use up a console slot for their cloaks when no other ship in the game pays such a price for it is extremely antiquated. It made some sense back when it was first introduced, but makes no sense in the present state of the game.
What are you talking about? Defiant base turn rate is 17, T'varo base turn rate is 18. They have the same .20 impulse mod.
Since Romulan ships have less system power, it's likely that ROM players fly with less Engine power. At present, Engine power translates directly into speed and turn rate.
This could be the reason Rom ships appear slower than other ships. I've seen a lot of them wish they could use a M/AM core instead of a Singularity core, as many seem to feel like the Singularity powers aren't worth the decrease in systems power.
As I said I don't fly a t'varo, but I see the borg blow up a lot of them, They don't blow up defiant's. Well they do but not nearly as much.
And hell may be that the point their captains are so enraptured by their cloaking device they never use their speed as protection.
May be it different for me, I see more singularity core detonations than I see warp core detonations.
Cruiser or escort I will Fly with any Klink or Fed, long before I fly with a rom team mate(If given a choice) Their ships or their captains don't seem to be able to take the heat.
Well shoot, maybe the Defiant shouldn't have ANY cloak?
Went to sleep, woke up, checked this thread again. *facepalm* Some 5+ pages of utter ignorance, dare I even say - stupidity!
How little knowledge there is about basic game mechanics in this tread, combined with the high amount of missinformation is shocking, even by 'Federation Shipyards" standards. :eek:
Some of you guys really need to visit the PvP section more often, PvP may be broken but those guys there know their stuff, maybe you'll learn something and have a laugh at yourselves afterwards when you realize the points you tried to make.
I'm betting devs. are reading this and laughing their asses off looking at all the "evidence" used to make point in this discussion.
probably true. I'm merely pointing out the likely old reason before the romulans came out was the fact that because of the tac consoles the defiant got, it got no integrated cloak. But since roms came out and well dumped all over everything well...that went out the window!
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
PVP? because that's the beginning and end of a game right?
You can't be attacked in sector space, or on missions by other players, PVP takes place in arenas, except this one system and you are never forced to go there. How are pvp discussions relevant to to any game play besides pvp game play.
especially in all the mmo's I have played 90% of "invisible man" beef stems from ******** and its Rogues. NPC's don't care if you have a cloak because they don't panic, they tend to hit hard, and have a high amount of hp.
addendum the unmentionable game is literally unmentionable.
The Defiant is just fine as is...I guess you didn't get the Fleet version, yet.
5 Tac consoles.
Nuff said.
RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
In the words of our former Community Manager: "Reading is OP!" :rolleyes:
I already said that PvP is broken in the post you quoted. I referred people to visit the PvP forums because there are players that really know their stuff and from whom one can really learn a lot about the game machanics of STO. Regardless of the state and relevance of PvP in STO, the people that play it have excellent knowledge and understanding of the mechanics, and most of them are willing to share it and give advice. I have learned a lot myslef from their threads.
And in case you haven't noticed (genuinely, not being snarky here) this entire discussion is with a PvP premise. Because why on Earth would people complain that a KDF or Romulan ship has "unfair advantages" while fighting NPCs, amirite?
I've said this before, it's laughable really - when it comes to gaining something they want for themselves, people on the forum all behave like the most experienced PvPers that do PvP on daily basis. However when nerfs and balance passes come to town, then - PvP sucks, noone plays PvP, PvP should be deleted, PvPers are responsible for everything bad in STO, etc.
R.I.P
I say no, PVP don't know there stuff, because pvp only matter in PVP not PVE which most of this game is. That's the only issue with your post. Its a personal gripe with MMO communities in general. that and stat worshiping and Biggar! NUMBARZ chasing.
I may experience, Klingon space is filled with Vo'quv carriers...which can't cloak, Jem Hadar bug fighters and Dreadnoughts, which are not easy to get are very popular, which don't cloak.
The Jem'Hadar fighter which while no longer the king of escorts is still very good, can't cloak.
The naussican ship with the disruptor lance, can't cloak but thoes who fly them seem to sware by them.
I have read people praise the cardassian Galor cruiser, which can't cloak.
And while some say Romulan singularity powers make them OP, I see lots of Adapted Tal'Shiar in orbit on New Romulus, which don't have singularity powers.
It is said in every mmo pvp is broken, and maybe I have lost respect for the very concept. I find PVP to basically enforce cardboard cut out builds, kill explorations (In games that have world pvp) and basicly be pointless except frustrating players.
I find PVP so toxic I don't even engage in it, from Guildwars(Still play) to kotor(quit), to the Unmentionable mmo(quit).
I last engaged in Ker'kat I tangled with "I Pwn you Down" I appreciated his skill with his B'rel. Found it inspiring. A fed in a Oddy just started cursing the fact that he was speed tanking, complaining. It was the first time I had been to Ker'kat since Captain rank, I completed the story on my main And rom science officer alt, got my first KDF to 50. So it had been a while.
Got so sick of the attitude I warped out haven't been back since.
There are some gems in PVP but I find it brings out the worst in players.
Of course, this thread is about Raiders & flanking, as have been multiple other "discussions" about how the Defiant should flank (AND Battle Cloak) like a KDF Raider.
There's a fundamental lack of understanding about what a KDF Raider is in these threads, and confusion with the KDF Raptors.
Yeah, Romulans can Battle Cloak, but this seems to be a major Defiant problem... not a Qin, Somraw, Vor'cha, or Mogh issue.
I don't look at the Ar'kif and honestly say that my B'rel should get a hangar. It's a joke, people! (I do LOVE my Ar'kif on my Romulan Tac, though.) And yet these Defiant threads are a different kind of joke.
Still very funny, though.
IKS Korrasami (Fleet B'rel Bird of Prey Retrofit T5-U)