Turn rate doesn't actually make that much difference, because the only real appeal of 5 tac slots is maximizing alpha strike potential. That's what makes the 5-tac ship dangerous, not just how fast it turns.
Let's also not forget that, out of every single Fleet ship in the game, the FTER is the only ship to not receive its 10% boost to Shields -- a penalty no other ship has, not even 5-tac cloaking ships like the Fleet Ar'Kif, which also has a base turn rate of 16 (just one less than the FTER), a hangar, and a Lt. Com Universal Boff slot. Then there's the Fleet Ha'feh, the Fleet Dhelan...
Again, cloaks are treated as a freebie on every ship except the three FED ships capable of cloaking. It's significantly unbalanced to force FED players to use a console slot for cloaking, and making them integrated hurts no one. If you have an actual argument against cloaks, I'd like to hear it... but I'm just going to keep pointing to every ship that can cloak, and still has 5 tactical slots.
Hell, the Fleet Mogh has literally identical stats to the Fleet Avenger, except it also has its built-in cloak. How can you still argue that cloaks should cost something?
I would be completely okay with the Defiant getting the cloak or even battle cloak, if the Klingon Raptors and BOPS were suitably upgraded then with 5-TAC consoles and the BOPS with 3rd Rear Weapons.
I think there should be rooms for all opportunities to all parties.
I don't agree with the sentiment that the KDF buff is unwarranted and just because the BOPS are finally getting some well deserved attention, this warrants the Fed escorts getting the same.
Honestly, just look at the Fed lineup. The MVAM, the Andorian Escort (3-Pack), the Defiant, The HEC, the Patrol Escorts. All phenomenal ships. Why? Because some of the best players in the game say so. Then compare it to the "tactical escort pilot"-gameplay options the KDF have. If you honestly have sour grapes after considering how very little the KDF have had for so long, I'm just surprised. Thats why KDF supporters get so riled-up when Feds make these kinds of threads.
IMO, Romulan and Klingons cloaks, love or hate them, the Federations factions remains the only factions in the game specialised in anti-cloaking warfare and the widest selection of ships, particularly science vessels ideally suited for the task.
I would be completely okay with the Defiant getting the cloak or even battle cloak, if the Klingon Raptors and BOPS were suitably upgraded then with 5-TAC consoles and the BOPS with 3rd Rear Weapons.
I think there should be rooms for all opportunities to all parties.
I don't agree with the sentiment that the KDF buff is unwarranted and just because the BOPS are finally getting some well deserved attention, this warrants the Fed escorts getting the same.
Honestly, just look at the Fed lineup. The MVAM, the Andorian Escort (3-Pack), the Defiant, The HEC, the Patrol Escorts. All phenomenal ships. Why? Because some of the best players in the game say so. Then compare it to the "tactical escort pilot"-gameplay options the KDF have. If you honestly have sour grapes after considering how very little the KDF have had for so long, I'm just surprised. Thats why KDF supporters get so riled-up when Feds make these kinds of threads.
IMO, Romulan and Klingons cloaks, love or hate them, the Federations factions remains the only factions in the game specialised in anti-cloaking warfare and the widest selection of ships, particularly science vessels ideally suited for the task.
That's kind of what a few folk in this thread have said, including myself -- making regular cloaks an integrated ability doesn't hurt the KDF, but the KDF are resistant to it mostly out of spite. Nobody in this thread has "sour grapes" for KDF getting more stuff. KDF has sour grapes for everything FEDs want, though, as if it's our fault that Cryptic royally screwed over one faction for so long.
More ships for Klingons isn't the discussion, however, nor are the KDF automatically entitled to something if Cryptic did make FED cloaks integrated. The KDF supporters in this thread seem to be resistant to the Defiant getting its cloak integrated... because they're still sour over Cryptic's abysmal treatment of that faction for the past few years.
We all feel you. We'd like for KDF to get more things, too. That's just not the discussion at hand, though.
As far as FEDs "specializing in anti-cloaking warfare", I'm going to have to disagree somewhat there. While a number of FED ships and abilities can weed out cloaked ships... my experience tells me that most players would rather saddle up in an Escort, or an alien ship before going to PVP. Very rarely will I see a science ship or a cruiser in Ker'rat, for example... and when I do, it's typically just acting as bait with a bunch of cloaked friends in the wings waiting to pounce anyone that attacks.
PVP is a very cloaking-dominated game. It's all about the alpha strike -- decloak, hit with a buffed up DBB to pop the target, then zip away. There's a HUGE advantage to ships that cloak in PVP, and with Romulan and Klingon ships getting their cloaks for free... it puts FED players at a massive disadvantage in PVP combat.
That said, PVP doesn't really come with any significant rewards. It's a thing to do while bored, at best. So, baking the FED cloaks into the ships wouldn't really change much at all for KDF/Rom players in PVP since there are no real consequences anyway, and the change would be relatively minor. It sure would feel better for FED players to be able to use their 10th console slot like KDF and Rom players can, though.
I honestly wonder how many of the current KDF or Romulan PvPers currently shiver at the thought of facing a TER in single combat. Personally, the current Rommie and BoPs do not offer much chance for a similarly classed FED ship to recover from their alpha strike. A failed alpha from a BOP or Warbird can be escaped by cloaking and trying again, and again, and again. In contrast Defiant will kill or be killed from an alpha. After season 9 begins BoPs will rarely fail their alpha strike (+25% flanking dmg, +10% hull). This alone makes the Defiant native cloak (non-console) valid for conversation.
Personally, I wouldn't mind if they moved the FED cloaking device to an actual device slot, but any suggestion to take the cloak from a console slot or to be made a native cloak, will be met with typical anti-Defiant/anti-cloak aggression.
I think one answer Defiant captains could get regarding this issue could come in a C-store set where 3 Defiant models (Gallant, Vigilante, Sao Paolo) already exist as ship costumes.
Similar to other 3 pack ships, the Defiant "set" could get the quad cannons, the ablative armor console[eng] (~10% armor missing from fleet variant or the same effect as the current ablative console ), and the quantum torpedo for the 3 weapon set.
This could provide the "buff" needed to keep up with the other creeper ships while giving Cryptic what they want, ......reasons for us to purchase more ships.
That's kind of what a few folk in this thread have said, including myself -- making regular cloaks an integrated ability doesn't hurt the KDF, but the KDF are resistant to it mostly out of spite. Nobody in this thread has "sour grapes" for KDF getting more stuff. KDF has sour grapes for everything FEDs want, though, as if it's our fault that Cryptic royally screwed over one faction for so long.
More ships for Klingons isn't the discussion, however, nor are the KDF automatically entitled to something if Cryptic did make FED cloaks integrated. The KDF supporters in this thread seem to be resistant to the Defiant getting its cloak integrated... because they're still sour over Cryptic's abysmal treatment of that faction for the past few years.
We all feel you. We'd like for KDF to get more things, too. That's just not the discussion at hand, though.
It's all in your head. This is not about Cryptic's treatment of any faction. This is about faction diversity. This is about not molding everyting to be exactly the same.
And the devs. have been pretty clear at least on particular topic:
- The faction that in lore invented the cloak has the optimal cloak in STO.
- The faction that in lore acquired the cloak via trade and had more than a 100 years to perfect it has integrated basic cloak in STO.
- The faction that in lore never cloaked and never used cloaking technology has the cloak on a select number of ships in the form of a console that enables basic cloaking.
The end. Nothing more, nothing less to it. That's their design decision in order to resemble lore directions.
As far as FEDs "specializing in anti-cloaking warfare", I'm going to have to disagree somewhat there. While a number of FED ships and abilities can weed out cloaked ships... my experience tells me that most players would rather saddle up in an Escort, or an alien ship before going to PVP. Very rarely will I see a science ship or a cruiser in Ker'rat, for example... and when I do, it's typically just acting as bait with a bunch of cloaked friends in the wings waiting to pounce anyone that attacks.
PVP is a very cloaking-dominated game. It's all about the alpha strike -- decloak, hit with a buffed up DBB to pop the target, then zip away. There's a HUGE advantage to ships that cloak in PVP, and with Romulan and Klingon ships getting their cloaks for free... it puts FED players at a massive disadvantage in PVP combat.
That said, PVP doesn't really come with any significant rewards. It's a thing to do while bored, at best. So, baking the FED cloaks into the ships wouldn't really change much at all for KDF/Rom players in PVP since there are no real consequences anyway, and the change would be relatively minor. It sure would feel better for FED players to be able to use their 10th console slot like KDF and Rom players can, though.
First of all, PvP in it's current state is entirely irrelevant. That said, my experience tells me that the vast majority of STO players don't even have the basic idea how to PvP, play this game as a single player game and want to be "Kirks" so they either quit PvP when they get their posteriors handed to them or they come to the forum to cry "X is OP, plz nerf!".
PvP is also a multiplayer game. STO is a multiplayer game. The least you need in PvP is a science ship. If people would all rather jump in an escort without taking science ships with them, it's their own fault when they have their posteriors handed to them and they shoulnd't come here to complain about it.
Romulans are OP by design. This will not change. At least not until there's....let's say....a Cardassian faction, which given Cryptic's track record will be even more OP in order to gain guaranteed sales. Then we'll all be crying about OP Keldons.
However, Fed. and KDF ships are balanced against each other because these two factions were there from the start. KDF ships except for the battlecruisers suffer penalties for this. The battlecruisers are an exception by design as stated by the dev. team and they gain larger crew numbers - so slower repair rate. So you're wrong - the KDF is entitled to something if Feds. get integrated cloaks without suffering the same penalties, which they shouldn't. The KDF would then deserve much improved Raptors to say at least.
The only thing the Defiant could possibly need is +10% shield mod. on the fleet variant.
First of all, PvP in it's current state is entirely irrelevant. That said, my experience tells me that the vast majority of STO players don't even have the basic idea how to PvP, play this game as a single player game and want to be "Kirks" so they either quit PvP when they get their posteriors handed to them or they come to the forum to cry "X is OP, plz nerf!".
PvP is also a multiplayer game. STO is a multiplayer game. The least you need in PvP is a science ship. If people would all rather jump in an escort without taking science ships with them, it's their own fault when they have their posteriors handed to them and they shoulnd't come here to complain about it.
Romulans are OP by design. This will not change. At least not until there's....let's say....a Cardassian faction, which given Cryptic's track record will be even more OP in order to gain guaranteed sales. Then we'll all be crying about OP Keldons.
However, Fed. and KDF ships are balanced against each other because these two factions were there from the start. KDF ships except for the battlecruisers suffer penalties for this. The battlecruisers are an exception by design as stated by the dev. team and they gain larger crew numbers - so slower repair rate. So you're wrong - the KDF is entitled to something if Feds. get integrated cloaks without suffering the same penalties, which they shouldn't. The KDF would then deserve much improved Raptors to say at least.
The only thing the Defiant could possibly need is +10% shield mod. on the fleet variant.
"PVP is irrelevent", so then what possible reason is there for opposing regular cloaks being integrated on a select few FED ships (as opposed to the vast majority of ships, as in KDF, or every ship, as in Rom)? There's enough "faction diversity" in having FEDs with only 3 cloaking ships, there's no reason to further hamstring them.
Anyway, in PVP the winners are almost always the cloaking ships with strong alpha strikes. When the vast majority of ships in the game have cloaking, that's likely going to be the most popular tactic... and turns out, it is.
As far as "Romulans are OP by design", that's a poor justification for keeping things the way they are. That's poor game design, and there's no reason to just accept it the way it is.
Again, KDF ships receive no penalty as a result of having a cloak. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, KDF ships are balanced against their FED counterparts... and then given a cloak. They pay nothing from their stats, or from their consoles, to have that cloak, even if it's a gimped cloak. There's no reason that FEDs should have to.
"PVP is irrelevent", so then what possible reason is there for opposing regular cloaks being integrated on a select few FED ships (as opposed to the vast majority of ships, as in KDF, or every ship, as in Rom)? There's enough "faction diversity" in having FEDs with only 3 cloaking ships, there's no reason to further hamstring them.
Anyway, in PVP the winners are almost always the cloaking ships with strong alpha strikes. When the vast majority of ships in the game have cloaking, that's likely going to be the most popular tactic... and turns out, it is.
PvP is irrelevant. And I'm not saying this out of spite or hatred towards PvP, in fact I'd love this game to have a healthy PvP system - it could only benefit the game as a whole.
But when loosely said 80% of the T5 ships in game are incompatible to participate in a good PvP match, there's something very wrong and completely broken. That's why usually one type of a ship domiantes PvP and that is why I say PvP is irrelevant and broken.
As far as "Romulans are OP by design", that's a poor justification for keeping things the way they are. That's poor game design, and there's no reason to just accept it the way it is.
I'm not justifying it, I'm calling the things as they are. Yes, it is a poor game design. When the LD of the game gloats how "OP-ness sells", what do you expect?
Romulans will be OP until the new "shiny" comes. Then, that "shiny" would have to be OP, because OP-ness sells.
You can refuse to accept it and continue with fruitless protests on the forum for as long as the game is online. I've been here long enough to know it won't change anything. Just saying.
Again, KDF ships receive no penalty as a result of having a cloak. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, KDF ships are balanced against their FED counterparts... and then given a cloak. They pay nothing from their stats, or from their consoles, to have that cloak, even if it's a gimped cloak. There's no reason that FEDs should have to.
Again, the devs. have been pretty clear on this one - Feds. pay for the ability to mount a cloaking device in a faction that does not cloak. That's it. The end.
You can refuse to accept it and continue with fruitless protests on the forum for as long as the game is online. I've been here long enough to know it won't change anything. Just saying.
Again, the devs. have been pretty clear on this one - Feds. pay for the ability to mount a cloaking device in a faction that does not cloak. That's it. The end.
Maybe, maybe not. They're not going to support every change proposed by players, but we gain nothing by not asking. There's no reason not to.
Also, just because you say "the end" doesn't mean the discussion is over... it just means people are going to stop responding to you.
Also, just because you say "the end" doesn't mean the discussion is over... it just means people are going to stop responding to you.
I'm not saying "the end" in order to close the discussion. lol
I'm saying "the end" because that was the devs. response (I believe it was gorgonzolla) in that huge thread of whining about the Avenger not getting integrated cloak when the Mogh came to STO.
ONCE AGAIN, FOR THOSE WHO HAVE ALREADY FORGOTTEN WHAT THE DEVS HAVE SAID ON KDF CLOAKING.
ONLY KDF BATTLE CRUISERS GET STANDARD CLOAK WITH NO HANDICAP, as befits the oldest iconic line of Klingon vessels.
BOPS HAVE BATTLE CLOAKING AND PAY FOR ITS USE, as well as the use of Uslots, high speed and high turn.
RAPTORS PAY FOR BUILT IN STANDARD CLOAKING IN A LOWER SHIELD MODIFIER AND TURN RATE IN COMPARISION TO THE DEFIANT CLASS, which pays for cloak only with a console slot.
In fact that is the only price the feds pay for their three cloaking ships, one single console slot of their choosing. The base stats of the fed cloaking three do not suffer.
THE BELIEF THAT THE KLINGON GET CLOAKING FOR FREE IS A FALSE FED GENERATED BELIEF.
IT IS A LIE TOLD TO ADD FALSE WEIGHT TO A LOSING ARGUMENT ON WHY THEY NEED BUILT IN CLOAKING L, and the even bigger fallacy that Battle Cloak is what is really needed.
Innate cloaks yes, as it is a trivial and archaic relic of discarded measures of balance. Starfleet Battlecloaks, no. Leave the crutches out there for those who need them.
But I've wasted more than enough time on rabid KDF fan boys...
YOU FOOL! Your information is completely wrong. The Fleet BOPs all have .88 shield mods. Not .92. You'd know this if you had characters across the different factions instead of grabbing random things from your sack of old tricks. Fleet Norgh Fleet B'Rel Fleet Hoh'Sus
You can hop onto a KDF character and see the information on the shipyards.
Where you got the idea that BOPs have higher shield mods than the Fleet Defiant should make for an interesting story in Fantasy.
Unfortunately, esp. with Feds like you that don't know too much outside 1 faction, this still stands.
But please, do come back when you have your information straight and not grab random numbers from your vivid imagination. I do appreciate your "Holier Than Thou" attitude, which makes it that much more fun in burning down your misinformation.
Well its very good at spike damage certainly, but it is awful at survivability and the stats put the handling at the low end of the performance class. If you dont mind dying a lot you can run around with no defenses and try to pop the other guys as fast as possible, but if score matters and then the only way to get anything out of it without giving up kills to the other team is to run around cloaked all the time.
Not true at all. While the Defiant may not be a new ship, it is completely deadly in a dog fight or match in the hands of a good player.
Hard hitting, Fast, Agile and Durable enough not to have to run in a fight.
I honestly wonder how many of the current KDF or Romulan PvPers currently shiver at the thought of facing a TER in single combat. Personally, the current Rommie and BoPs do not offer much chance for a similarly classed FED ship to recover from their alpha strike. A failed alpha from a BOP or Warbird can be escaped by cloaking and trying again, and again, and again. In contrast Defiant will kill or be killed from an alpha. After season 9 begins BoPs will rarely fail their alpha strike (+25% flanking dmg, +10% hull). This alone makes the Defiant native cloak (non-console) valid for conversation.
Personally, I wouldn't mind if they moved the FED cloaking device to an actual device slot, but any suggestion to take the cloak from a console slot or to be made a native cloak, will be met with typical anti-Defiant/anti-cloak aggression.
I think one answer Defiant captains could get regarding this issue could come in a C-store set where 3 Defiant models (Gallant, Vigilante, Sao Paolo) already exist as ship costumes.
Similar to other 3 pack ships, the Defiant "set" could get the quad cannons, the ablative armor console[eng] (~10% armor missing from fleet variant or the same effect as the current ablative console ), and the quantum torpedo for the 3 weapon set.
This could provide the "buff" needed to keep up with the other creeper ships while giving Cryptic what they want, ......reasons for us to purchase more ships.
BoPs dont get +25% damage from flanking in pvp. The PvP stat for flanking is significantly lower for BoPs.
A failed BoP alpha strike ends in death for the player more often than not.
Defiants have the endurance to survive a failed alpha strike and loiter in combat.
I'm sorry, you were saying something about the Raptors being horribly underpowered compared to the super durable Defiant...?
The Raptors have higher Hull and Shields, in exchange for a slightly slower turn rate. That's the penalty they pay, there is NOTHING taken away for the cloak. Do you want your raptors to turn faster? Then be prepared to give up Hull and Shields.
Oh wait, KDF wouldn't want to do that, they're all about faction uniqueness...
I'm sorry, you were saying something about the Raptors being horribly underpowered compared to the super durable Defiant...?
The Raptors have higher Hull and Shields, in exchange for a slightly slower turn rate. That's the penalty they pay, there is NOTHING taken away for the cloak. Do you want your raptors to turn faster? Then be prepared to give up Hull and Shields.
Oh wait, KDF wouldn't want to do that, they're all about faction uniqueness...
Lol yes. Try again.
Everyone knows the fleet defiant did not get the standard +10% shields mod. That is one disparity even the KDF has supported being fixed.
Lets look at the whole picture instead of the narrow view.
Stats straight from ingame.
T4 Qin raptor 33000 hull .83 shield mod 15 turn, a cost put to it for having built in cloak.
Factor in the fleet 10% buff to hull and shields and the raptors are legit at .92 shield mod and hull being higher, as befits a fleet ship that has no cost break at $20.
T5 cstore Defiant 30000 hull .90 shield mod 17 turn. The fleet version has only the hull buff of 10% to give it 33000 hull. It was never given a shield buff since it has 5 tac consoles. No doubts it needs that .99 shield mod to be legit, but it certainly does not suffer from using a console slot to cloak. No handicap for high turn and better shields, just a cloak that takes up space.
***** to the Devs over your missing fleet .09 shields. We KDF are happy to have a .92 mod on our fleet version because it is a step up from .83 .
Though I would be fine if they give the Defiant a .92 mod and lower the turn to 15 if the fleet Qin gets a fifth tac console.
Not true at all. While the Defiant may not be a new ship, it is completely deadly in a dog fight or match in the hands of a good player.
Hard hitting, Fast, Agile and Durable enough not to have to run in a fight.
Somraw is more agile and also more survivable, know why? 3rd engi means you can run EPtE and EPtS at full uptime and and still have ET/RSP/whatever on standby. Defiant is, choose full uptime for choose spike heal, one or the other.
Lol yes. Try again.
Everyone knows the fleet defiant did not get the standard +10% shields mod. That is one disparity even the KDF has supported being fixed.
Lets look at the whole picture instead of the narrow view.
Stats straight from ingame.
T4 Qin raptor 33000 hull .83 shield mod 15 turn, a cost put to it for having built in cloak.
Factor in the fleet 10% buff to hull and shields and the raptors are legit at .92 shield mod and hull being higher, as befits a fleet ship that has no cost break at $20.
T5 cstore Defiant 30000 hull .90 shield mod 17 turn. The fleet version has only the hull buff of 10% to give it 33000 hull. It was never given a shield buff since it has 5 tac consoles. No doubts it needs that .99 shield mod to be legit, but it certainly does not suffer from using a console slot to cloak.
***** to the Devs over your missing fleet .09 shields. We KDF are happy to have a .92 mod on our fleet version because it is a step up from .83 .
Though I would be fine if they give the Defiant a .92 mod and lower the turn to 15 if the fleet Qin gets a fifth tac console.
The Defiant was not denied its shield modifier bonus because of it having 5 Tac consoles. Cryptic has never commented on the Defiant's lack of Fleet shield bonus, but we do see Romulan ships with 5 Tac consoles and Fleet Shield bonuses, and we see the FAE with 5 tac consoles and 0.99 Shield Modifier.
That's my whole point. KDF ships lose nothing for having a cloak. Raiders have been balanced around having a battle cloak, which is different from a cloak. But I'm not talking about raiders or battle cloaks, just regular cloaks.
Again, compare the Qin to the Defiant -- the non-fleet T5 Defiant has 30,000 Hull and 0.9 shields, while the Qin has 33,000 Hull and 0.83 shields. In keeping with Cryptic's design philosophy, KDF ships have higher Hull and lower Shields than their FED counterparts. That has nothing to do with their cloaks, it's just how Cryptic approaches faction identity.
For the thousandth time, when you look at ship stats objectively and compare them to FED counterparts, the KDF do not pay anything for their cloaks.
The Ambassador has 43,450 Hull, 1.1 SM, and 7 TR
The Kamarang has 38,500 Hull, 1.1 SM, and 10.5 TR
The Kamarang has less Hull, but a higher TR. That's how it was balanced. It also has a cloak, just added on free of cost.
Feel free to compare more ships yourself, but apparently TR is a very highly budgeted stat, and Cryptic will pull heavily from Hull or Shields (except for the Jem'hadar Attack Ship) to make room for it. But the cloak is always free of charge.
A .83 shield mod and lower turn on the raptor class is payment for built in cloaking and higher base hull. The fleet versions still pay for the advantages even if they do get the standard 10% buff for being fleet that puts them into the .92 and 36300 hull range.
last I checked .83 is less than .90 and 15 is less than 17. So yeah, the Raptor pays for its advantages.
wanna know something really funny? Go to STOwiki and compare the basic shield strength of the fleet Defiant to the fleet Qin. You notice at .90 the Fleet Defiant is stated to have 4705 shield points at Mk10 while the .92mod fleet Qin has 3705 shields at Mk10.
KDF Battle Cruisers do not pay in any way for thier built in cloaks, as Gorngonzolla already stated in another thread. They are the only KDF ships that do not pay for cloaking. Comparing a cruiser to a Battle Cruiser is not a valid comparison.
Again, for the record... this person's sour grapes of bitter spite and hatred towards Starfleet: I'd like to see a set bonus for the Cloak console + Quads to give a buff to Phasers, just like the Ar'kif set. It only makes sense.
I'd certainly buy the Defiant Refit to get the Quads for my Defiant Retrofit. But what do I know? I'm a dumb KDF player who doesn't know jack squat about using a Defiant.
The whole premise that the Defiant needs to be Battle Cloaking like the Ar'kif does not make any sense to me, though.
Somraw is more agile and also more survivable, know why? 3rd engi means you can run EPtE and EPtS at full uptime and and still have ET/RSP/whatever on standby. Defiant is, choose full uptime for choose spike heal, one or the other.
The fact that a Fleet Somraw is more survivable does not invalidate my stance on the Defiant class.
It is still as fast, agile, deadly and durable as it ever was, even if it doesnt have the option to cycle twin EPTx abilities with a RSP on standby.
The fact that a Fleet Somraw is more survivable does not invalidate my stance on the Defiant class.
It is still as fast, agile, deadly and durable as it ever was, even if it doesnt have the option to cycle twin EPTx abilities with a RSP on standby.
Yes, yes it does.
The Fleet Somraw suffers no penalty for its cloak. It's been proven time and again in this thread. If you don't like its stat allocation, boff seating, or console layout, that's a separate discussion. None of its supposed shortcomings are a result of having a cloak, though.
No KDF ship suffers for its cloak. No ROM ship suffers for its battle cloak. There's no reason FED ships should suffer for their cloaks, especially when there are only three ships that can cloak.
The Fleet Somraw suffers no penalty for its cloak. It's been proven time and again in this thread. If you don't like its stat allocation, boff seating, or console layout, that's a separate discussion. None of its supposed shortcomings are a result of having a cloak, though.
No KDF ship suffers for its cloak. No ROM ship suffers for its battle cloak. There's no reason FED ships should suffer for their cloaks, especially when there are only three ships that can cloak.
I agree with this. It seems silly to have the ability as a console for one faction for for the other one and a half, it's a function of the ships it's available on.
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I agree with this. It seems silly to have the ability as a console for one faction for for the other one and a half, it's a function of the ships it's available on.
We are also talking about the Federation, which, unlike the Klingons and Romulans, have no tradition of Cloaks.
We are also talking about the Federation, which, unlike the Klingons and Romulans, have no tradition of Cloaks.
We're also talking about a game where Q makes snowmen come to life and we have to fight them with snowball guns. I don't remember that being a traditional Starfleet/KDF-endorsed holiday every year on the show.
This game has left any tradition, canon, lore, or whatever you want to call it behind a long time ago.
We're also talking about a game where Q makes snowmen come to life and we have to fight them with snowball guns. I don't remember that being a traditional Starfleet/KDF-endorsed holiday every year on the show.
This game has left any tradition, canon, lore, or whatever you want to call it behind a long time ago.
Yes, and since a wrong has been done, let's keep committing more. While we're at it, we need to have Death Stars and Star Destroyers since we have some other weird things included in the game.
I Believe you'll find the 'no inbuilt cloaks on fed ships' was a CBS mandate, not Cryptic. They got around it with the consoles as 'premium content'
You'll see it stated many times in this thread that the raiders at least do pay for their battle cloak with the low hull and only 2 rear weapons.
Rommies pay for their battlecloaks in other ways such as the way singularity cores work and I think lower hulls than feds in general (honestly not sue on the hull bit). Warbirds are harder to compare because they're not a straight comparison in the first place.
battlecruisers don't pay, but raptors do for their regular cloaks with lower shields then their fed counterparts (Fleet defiant excepted because of its missing 10% on the fleet version which as pretty much everyone in here has said, does need to be added.) they may not pay alot, but they do pay a little.
Yes, and since a wrong has been done, let's keep committing more. While we're at it, we need to have Death Stars and Star Destroyers since we have some other weird things included in the game.
20 wrongs make a right, correct? :rolleyes:
I think the only "wrong" is looking at holidays and other game features as a "wrong". STO is a Star Trek-themed amusement park video game, not a serious entry into canon.
As a video game, I (and others) have raised concern about balance issues. Players have every right to discuss their opinions on balance issues the game has, and the Defiant's cloak is one of them.
battlecruisers don't pay, but raptors do for their regular cloaks with lower shields then their fed counterparts (Fleet defiant excepted because of its missing 10% on the fleet version which as pretty much everyone in here has said, does need to be added.) they may not pay alot, but they do pay a little.
Nope. They have lower shields, but much higher Hull. That's pretty standard for most KDF ships, and is not a result of them having a cloak. I've said this over and over in this thread, which you clearly did not read before jumping in.
Like to make assumptions about others don't you mate? Such as the assumption that I'm attacking your points, you probably assume I'm an avid kdf player as well I guess.
The CBS mandate thing is something I recall reading years ago, trying to find a link now would be next to impossible and frankly id rather not spend the time needed to find it. It may even be well out of date by now in regards to what CBS let cryptic do, I only brought it up as a potential reason for why the cloaks are consoles now. hell the gal-x had its cloak integrated originally, pretty sure they only made it a console with the release of the defiant refit. but then unlike the defiant the gal-x is the only canon fed ship shown to have a federation cloak, the defiant used a borrowed rommie one.
Of course the reason the gal-x had a cloak in all good things was becuase of the war with the klingons and im pretty sure it was mentioned that the rommies had been all but wiped out in that future too... so with that in mind I can certainly see why some people would advocate that the feds not having cloaking tech in 2409 is TRIBBLE.
Comments
I would be completely okay with the Defiant getting the cloak or even battle cloak, if the Klingon Raptors and BOPS were suitably upgraded then with 5-TAC consoles and the BOPS with 3rd Rear Weapons.
I think there should be rooms for all opportunities to all parties.
I don't agree with the sentiment that the KDF buff is unwarranted and just because the BOPS are finally getting some well deserved attention, this warrants the Fed escorts getting the same.
Honestly, just look at the Fed lineup. The MVAM, the Andorian Escort (3-Pack), the Defiant, The HEC, the Patrol Escorts. All phenomenal ships. Why? Because some of the best players in the game say so. Then compare it to the "tactical escort pilot"-gameplay options the KDF have. If you honestly have sour grapes after considering how very little the KDF have had for so long, I'm just surprised. Thats why KDF supporters get so riled-up when Feds make these kinds of threads.
IMO, Romulan and Klingons cloaks, love or hate them, the Federations factions remains the only factions in the game specialised in anti-cloaking warfare and the widest selection of ships, particularly science vessels ideally suited for the task.
That's kind of what a few folk in this thread have said, including myself -- making regular cloaks an integrated ability doesn't hurt the KDF, but the KDF are resistant to it mostly out of spite. Nobody in this thread has "sour grapes" for KDF getting more stuff. KDF has sour grapes for everything FEDs want, though, as if it's our fault that Cryptic royally screwed over one faction for so long.
More ships for Klingons isn't the discussion, however, nor are the KDF automatically entitled to something if Cryptic did make FED cloaks integrated. The KDF supporters in this thread seem to be resistant to the Defiant getting its cloak integrated... because they're still sour over Cryptic's abysmal treatment of that faction for the past few years.
We all feel you. We'd like for KDF to get more things, too. That's just not the discussion at hand, though.
As far as FEDs "specializing in anti-cloaking warfare", I'm going to have to disagree somewhat there. While a number of FED ships and abilities can weed out cloaked ships... my experience tells me that most players would rather saddle up in an Escort, or an alien ship before going to PVP. Very rarely will I see a science ship or a cruiser in Ker'rat, for example... and when I do, it's typically just acting as bait with a bunch of cloaked friends in the wings waiting to pounce anyone that attacks.
PVP is a very cloaking-dominated game. It's all about the alpha strike -- decloak, hit with a buffed up DBB to pop the target, then zip away. There's a HUGE advantage to ships that cloak in PVP, and with Romulan and Klingon ships getting their cloaks for free... it puts FED players at a massive disadvantage in PVP combat.
That said, PVP doesn't really come with any significant rewards. It's a thing to do while bored, at best. So, baking the FED cloaks into the ships wouldn't really change much at all for KDF/Rom players in PVP since there are no real consequences anyway, and the change would be relatively minor. It sure would feel better for FED players to be able to use their 10th console slot like KDF and Rom players can, though.
Personally, I wouldn't mind if they moved the FED cloaking device to an actual device slot, but any suggestion to take the cloak from a console slot or to be made a native cloak, will be met with typical anti-Defiant/anti-cloak aggression.
I think one answer Defiant captains could get regarding this issue could come in a C-store set where 3 Defiant models (Gallant, Vigilante, Sao Paolo) already exist as ship costumes.
Similar to other 3 pack ships, the Defiant "set" could get the quad cannons, the ablative armor console[eng] (~10% armor missing from fleet variant or the same effect as the current ablative console ), and the quantum torpedo for the 3 weapon set.
This could provide the "buff" needed to keep up with the other creeper ships while giving Cryptic what they want, ......reasons for us to purchase more ships.
It's all in your head. This is not about Cryptic's treatment of any faction. This is about faction diversity. This is about not molding everyting to be exactly the same.
And the devs. have been pretty clear at least on particular topic:
- The faction that in lore invented the cloak has the optimal cloak in STO.
- The faction that in lore acquired the cloak via trade and had more than a 100 years to perfect it has integrated basic cloak in STO.
- The faction that in lore never cloaked and never used cloaking technology has the cloak on a select number of ships in the form of a console that enables basic cloaking.
The end. Nothing more, nothing less to it. That's their design decision in order to resemble lore directions.
First of all, PvP in it's current state is entirely irrelevant. That said, my experience tells me that the vast majority of STO players don't even have the basic idea how to PvP, play this game as a single player game and want to be "Kirks" so they either quit PvP when they get their posteriors handed to them or they come to the forum to cry "X is OP, plz nerf!".
PvP is also a multiplayer game. STO is a multiplayer game. The least you need in PvP is a science ship. If people would all rather jump in an escort without taking science ships with them, it's their own fault when they have their posteriors handed to them and they shoulnd't come here to complain about it.
Romulans are OP by design. This will not change. At least not until there's....let's say....a Cardassian faction, which given Cryptic's track record will be even more OP in order to gain guaranteed sales. Then we'll all be crying about OP Keldons.
However, Fed. and KDF ships are balanced against each other because these two factions were there from the start. KDF ships except for the battlecruisers suffer penalties for this. The battlecruisers are an exception by design as stated by the dev. team and they gain larger crew numbers - so slower repair rate. So you're wrong - the KDF is entitled to something if Feds. get integrated cloaks without suffering the same penalties, which they shouldn't. The KDF would then deserve much improved Raptors to say at least.
The only thing the Defiant could possibly need is +10% shield mod. on the fleet variant.
"PVP is irrelevent", so then what possible reason is there for opposing regular cloaks being integrated on a select few FED ships (as opposed to the vast majority of ships, as in KDF, or every ship, as in Rom)? There's enough "faction diversity" in having FEDs with only 3 cloaking ships, there's no reason to further hamstring them.
Anyway, in PVP the winners are almost always the cloaking ships with strong alpha strikes. When the vast majority of ships in the game have cloaking, that's likely going to be the most popular tactic... and turns out, it is.
As far as "Romulans are OP by design", that's a poor justification for keeping things the way they are. That's poor game design, and there's no reason to just accept it the way it is.
Again, KDF ships receive no penalty as a result of having a cloak. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, KDF ships are balanced against their FED counterparts... and then given a cloak. They pay nothing from their stats, or from their consoles, to have that cloak, even if it's a gimped cloak. There's no reason that FEDs should have to.
PvP is irrelevant. And I'm not saying this out of spite or hatred towards PvP, in fact I'd love this game to have a healthy PvP system - it could only benefit the game as a whole.
But when loosely said 80% of the T5 ships in game are incompatible to participate in a good PvP match, there's something very wrong and completely broken. That's why usually one type of a ship domiantes PvP and that is why I say PvP is irrelevant and broken.
I'm not justifying it, I'm calling the things as they are. Yes, it is a poor game design. When the LD of the game gloats how "OP-ness sells", what do you expect?
Romulans will be OP until the new "shiny" comes. Then, that "shiny" would have to be OP, because OP-ness sells.
You can refuse to accept it and continue with fruitless protests on the forum for as long as the game is online. I've been here long enough to know it won't change anything. Just saying.
Again, the devs. have been pretty clear on this one - Feds. pay for the ability to mount a cloaking device in a faction that does not cloak. That's it. The end.
Maybe, maybe not. They're not going to support every change proposed by players, but we gain nothing by not asking. There's no reason not to.
Also, just because you say "the end" doesn't mean the discussion is over... it just means people are going to stop responding to you.
I'm not saying "the end" in order to close the discussion. lol
I'm saying "the end" because that was the devs. response (I believe it was gorgonzolla) in that huge thread of whining about the Avenger not getting integrated cloak when the Mogh came to STO.
ONLY KDF BATTLE CRUISERS GET STANDARD CLOAK WITH NO HANDICAP, as befits the oldest iconic line of Klingon vessels.
BOPS HAVE BATTLE CLOAKING AND PAY FOR ITS USE, as well as the use of Uslots, high speed and high turn.
RAPTORS PAY FOR BUILT IN STANDARD CLOAKING IN A LOWER SHIELD MODIFIER AND TURN RATE IN COMPARISION TO THE DEFIANT CLASS, which pays for cloak only with a console slot.
In fact that is the only price the feds pay for their three cloaking ships, one single console slot of their choosing. The base stats of the fed cloaking three do not suffer.
THE BELIEF THAT THE KLINGON GET CLOAKING FOR FREE IS A FALSE FED GENERATED BELIEF.
IT IS A LIE TOLD TO ADD FALSE WEIGHT TO A LOSING ARGUMENT ON WHY THEY NEED BUILT IN CLOAKING L, and the even bigger fallacy that Battle Cloak is what is really needed.
R.I.P
YOU FOOL! Your information is completely wrong. The Fleet BOPs all have .88 shield mods. Not .92. You'd know this if you had characters across the different factions instead of grabbing random things from your sack of old tricks.
Fleet Norgh
Fleet B'Rel
Fleet Hoh'Sus
You can hop onto a KDF character and see the information on the shipyards.
Where you got the idea that BOPs have higher shield mods than the Fleet Defiant should make for an interesting story in Fantasy.
Unfortunately, esp. with Feds like you that don't know too much outside 1 faction, this still stands.
But please, do come back when you have your information straight and not grab random numbers from your vivid imagination. I do appreciate your "Holier Than Thou" attitude, which makes it that much more fun in burning down your misinformation.
Please... :rolleyes:
Not true at all. While the Defiant may not be a new ship, it is completely deadly in a dog fight or match in the hands of a good player.
Hard hitting, Fast, Agile and Durable enough not to have to run in a fight.
R.I.P
BoPs dont get +25% damage from flanking in pvp. The PvP stat for flanking is significantly lower for BoPs.
A failed BoP alpha strike ends in death for the player more often than not.
Defiants have the endurance to survive a failed alpha strike and loiter in combat.
R.I.P
lolwhat
Fleet Defiant - 33,000 Hull, 0.9 Shield Modifier, 17 TR
Fleet Somraw - 34,650 Hull, 0.92 Shield Modifier, 16 TR
Fleet Qin - 36,300 Hull, 0.92 Shield Modifier, 15 TR
I'm sorry, you were saying something about the Raptors being horribly underpowered compared to the super durable Defiant...?
The Raptors have higher Hull and Shields, in exchange for a slightly slower turn rate. That's the penalty they pay, there is NOTHING taken away for the cloak. Do you want your raptors to turn faster? Then be prepared to give up Hull and Shields.
Oh wait, KDF wouldn't want to do that, they're all about faction uniqueness...
Lol yes. Try again.
Everyone knows the fleet defiant did not get the standard +10% shields mod. That is one disparity even the KDF has supported being fixed.
Lets look at the whole picture instead of the narrow view.
Stats straight from ingame.
T4 Qin raptor 33000 hull .83 shield mod 15 turn, a cost put to it for having built in cloak.
Factor in the fleet 10% buff to hull and shields and the raptors are legit at .92 shield mod and hull being higher, as befits a fleet ship that has no cost break at $20.
T5 cstore Defiant 30000 hull .90 shield mod 17 turn. The fleet version has only the hull buff of 10% to give it 33000 hull. It was never given a shield buff since it has 5 tac consoles. No doubts it needs that .99 shield mod to be legit, but it certainly does not suffer from using a console slot to cloak. No handicap for high turn and better shields, just a cloak that takes up space.
***** to the Devs over your missing fleet .09 shields. We KDF are happy to have a .92 mod on our fleet version because it is a step up from .83 .
Though I would be fine if they give the Defiant a .92 mod and lower the turn to 15 if the fleet Qin gets a fifth tac console.
R.I.P
Somraw is more agile and also more survivable, know why? 3rd engi means you can run EPtE and EPtS at full uptime and and still have ET/RSP/whatever on standby. Defiant is, choose full uptime for choose spike heal, one or the other.
The Defiant was not denied its shield modifier bonus because of it having 5 Tac consoles. Cryptic has never commented on the Defiant's lack of Fleet shield bonus, but we do see Romulan ships with 5 Tac consoles and Fleet Shield bonuses, and we see the FAE with 5 tac consoles and 0.99 Shield Modifier.
That's my whole point. KDF ships lose nothing for having a cloak. Raiders have been balanced around having a battle cloak, which is different from a cloak. But I'm not talking about raiders or battle cloaks, just regular cloaks.
Again, compare the Qin to the Defiant -- the non-fleet T5 Defiant has 30,000 Hull and 0.9 shields, while the Qin has 33,000 Hull and 0.83 shields. In keeping with Cryptic's design philosophy, KDF ships have higher Hull and lower Shields than their FED counterparts. That has nothing to do with their cloaks, it's just how Cryptic approaches faction identity.
For the thousandth time, when you look at ship stats objectively and compare them to FED counterparts, the KDF do not pay anything for their cloaks.
Let's take a look at another pair of comparable ships, the Fleet Support Cruiser and the Fleet Kamarang Battlecruiser.
The Ambassador has 43,450 Hull, 1.1 SM, and 7 TR
The Kamarang has 38,500 Hull, 1.1 SM, and 10.5 TR
The Kamarang has less Hull, but a higher TR. That's how it was balanced. It also has a cloak, just added on free of cost.
Feel free to compare more ships yourself, but apparently TR is a very highly budgeted stat, and Cryptic will pull heavily from Hull or Shields (except for the Jem'hadar Attack Ship) to make room for it. But the cloak is always free of charge.
last I checked .83 is less than .90 and 15 is less than 17. So yeah, the Raptor pays for its advantages.
wanna know something really funny? Go to STOwiki and compare the basic shield strength of the fleet Defiant to the fleet Qin. You notice at .90 the Fleet Defiant is stated to have 4705 shield points at Mk10 while the .92mod fleet Qin has 3705 shields at Mk10.
KDF Battle Cruisers do not pay in any way for thier built in cloaks, as Gorngonzolla already stated in another thread. They are the only KDF ships that do not pay for cloaking. Comparing a cruiser to a Battle Cruiser is not a valid comparison.
R.I.P
I'd certainly buy the Defiant Refit to get the Quads for my Defiant Retrofit. But what do I know? I'm a dumb KDF player who doesn't know jack squat about using a Defiant.
The whole premise that the Defiant needs to be Battle Cloaking like the Ar'kif does not make any sense to me, though.
Dude, we need to slap a Hangar on everything, including my B'rel, dawg!
It's the Cryptic way!
IKS Korrasami (Fleet B'rel Bird of Prey Retrofit T5-U)
The fact that a Fleet Somraw is more survivable does not invalidate my stance on the Defiant class.
It is still as fast, agile, deadly and durable as it ever was, even if it doesnt have the option to cycle twin EPTx abilities with a RSP on standby.
R.I.P
Yes, yes it does.
The Fleet Somraw suffers no penalty for its cloak. It's been proven time and again in this thread. If you don't like its stat allocation, boff seating, or console layout, that's a separate discussion. None of its supposed shortcomings are a result of having a cloak, though.
No KDF ship suffers for its cloak. No ROM ship suffers for its battle cloak. There's no reason FED ships should suffer for their cloaks, especially when there are only three ships that can cloak.
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My B'Rel needs a hangar so it can launch a B'Rel :cool:
I agree with this. It seems silly to have the ability as a console for one faction for for the other one and a half, it's a function of the ships it's available on.
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We are also talking about the Federation, which, unlike the Klingons and Romulans, have no tradition of Cloaks.
We're also talking about a game where Q makes snowmen come to life and we have to fight them with snowball guns. I don't remember that being a traditional Starfleet/KDF-endorsed holiday every year on the show.
This game has left any tradition, canon, lore, or whatever you want to call it behind a long time ago.
Yes, and since a wrong has been done, let's keep committing more. While we're at it, we need to have Death Stars and Star Destroyers since we have some other weird things included in the game.
20 wrongs make a right, correct? :rolleyes:
You'll see it stated many times in this thread that the raiders at least do pay for their battle cloak with the low hull and only 2 rear weapons.
Rommies pay for their battlecloaks in other ways such as the way singularity cores work and I think lower hulls than feds in general (honestly not sue on the hull bit). Warbirds are harder to compare because they're not a straight comparison in the first place.
battlecruisers don't pay, but raptors do for their regular cloaks with lower shields then their fed counterparts (Fleet defiant excepted because of its missing 10% on the fleet version which as pretty much everyone in here has said, does need to be added.) they may not pay alot, but they do pay a little.
I think the only "wrong" is looking at holidays and other game features as a "wrong". STO is a Star Trek-themed amusement park video game, not a serious entry into canon.
As a video game, I (and others) have raised concern about balance issues. Players have every right to discuss their opinions on balance issues the game has, and the Defiant's cloak is one of them.
Evidence for this?
Nope. They have lower shields, but much higher Hull. That's pretty standard for most KDF ships, and is not a result of them having a cloak. I've said this over and over in this thread, which you clearly did not read before jumping in.
The CBS mandate thing is something I recall reading years ago, trying to find a link now would be next to impossible and frankly id rather not spend the time needed to find it. It may even be well out of date by now in regards to what CBS let cryptic do, I only brought it up as a potential reason for why the cloaks are consoles now. hell the gal-x had its cloak integrated originally, pretty sure they only made it a console with the release of the defiant refit. but then unlike the defiant the gal-x is the only canon fed ship shown to have a federation cloak, the defiant used a borrowed rommie one.
Of course the reason the gal-x had a cloak in all good things was becuase of the war with the klingons and im pretty sure it was mentioned that the rommies had been all but wiped out in that future too... so with that in mind I can certainly see why some people would advocate that the feds not having cloaking tech in 2409 is TRIBBLE.