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Season 9 Dev Blog #5: Changes to Reputation Powers

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  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Basically.

    Ahhh, ok.

    Well that does kind of make me feel like I don't have to rush to finish that last grind anytime soon.

    I'll get there, eventually. Like DOFFing. But no real hurry.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • paspinallpaspinall Member Posts: 296 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    If Rep choices get tied to load outs hower it certainly incentives players to buy load out slots for convienence. 2 free slots won't be enough to cover PVE- and PVP-gear anymore because we'll need to select different passives for different STF's.

    Or you know not seeing as the only thing you cant really go off to do as a basic level 50 is the NWS so why bother with the effort of swapping or the cost of further load out slots.
  • rinksterrinkster Member Posts: 3,549 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    already several people suggested that 4 isnt enough with the new rep system, at some point pwe will have to upgrade from 4 ground/space to 5 ground space. i just dont see how this will work this way.

    My concern will be that they put those extra slots in a fleet holding.

    Then it wont be new Va versus old VA, but big fleet versus little fleet.




    I am truly sorry, but the ramifications of this proposed change seem not to have been thought through very well......because, by itself, it will do absolutely nothing to address the stated problem.


    What it DOES do is allow some lazy design in the next few months.

    Rep systems churning out endless DPS passives.

    The change allows that while nodding towards controlling power creep.

    Perhaps Hawk had what he knows about the new rep in mind when he made his new Va versus vet Va comparison earlier.

    Maybe that rep is REALLY op.
  • tpalelenatpalelena Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Well, look on the good side. I'm being robbed of what i worked for ,but at least I can now min max all my alts in a quarter of the time.


    I used to max out reputations in star trek online...but than the reputation took a nerf beam to the knee! :rolleyes:

    And yes. I didnt forgive the Valdore console nerf. Was my last zen purchase. I wont pay money for something they'll than go and nerf. Bad business plan.
    Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
  • buzz0942buzz0942 Member Posts: 53 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I want to keep my nickels, because i worked to get them.

    If there are too many dimes in the game - just stop putting new ones in.
  • cptdangcptdang Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    eisenw0lf wrote: »
    Wow ... that's a pretty big nerf for every player who has maxed out all reputation trees. However, let me guess, there will be fleet holdings in the near future in which you will sell us additional reputation trait slots for a hefty fee and an abysmal grind?

    I give this post +1
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  • adrianasrxadrianasrx Member Posts: 61 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    "Replaced the "Rotating Weapon Frequency" power with "Omega Graviton Pulse Module".

    This is VERY UNWELCOME in my opinion with rate at which the borg adapt to energy weapons you will have to get Omega or MACO or Klingon Honor Guard to even have a chance. And why on earth would it be worth getting the lower level Omega (TRIBBLE) gear
  • rinksterrinkster Member Posts: 3,549 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    f2pdrakron wrote: »
    I dont know man, maybe having all the Colonial Chains done is pretty bad and they are just going to let us do half of them.

    Well they do allow you to do 40k DPS to a newly minted VA.....apparently.
  • minusthedrifter2minusthedrifter2 Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I've seen this assertion made repeatedly, and I want to clarify - I'm not saying a new 50 should be equal to a veteran 50, nor will they be under this new system. I am saying that combat math where a fresh 50 deals 500 DPS but a veteran 50 deals 40,000 DPS is too wide a performance delta to sustain gameplay between those two actors.


    That's a misnomer though Hawk. I can assure you that someone with no reputation powers at all can dish out incredible DPS if they know what they're doing and how to build a ship properly.

    The rep bonuses help to sharpen a knife, but if you're using a wet noodle in the first place it's not going to matter anyways.
  • tpalelenatpalelena Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    adrianasrx wrote: »
    "Replaced the "Rotating Weapon Frequency" power with "Omega Graviton Pulse Module".

    This is VERY UNWELCOME in my opinion with rate at which the borg adapt to energy weapons you will have to get Omega or MACO or Klingon Honor Guard to even have a chance. And why on earth would it be worth getting the lower level Omega (TRIBBLE) gear

    The mark X and XI items are being taken out. So its mark XII only.
    Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    f2pdrakron wrote: »
    I dont know man, maybe having all the Colonial Chains done is pretty bad and they are just going to let us do half of them.

    They are not stopping anyone from doing all the reps... just from slotting ALL the bonuses at once.

    There is still a big advantage to unlocking all the possible options.

    Its not like this is the only game out there where you earn passives but can only slot X number at one time.

    The only real issue is that Cryptic didn't put this system in place from day one... still they can't move forward with out fixing the past oversight.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • monkeybone13monkeybone13 Member Posts: 4,640 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    So we're going to only be able to pick 4 ground and 4 space powers out of a choice of 16 powers each? 8 powers out of 32? That doesn't seem fair.

    And someone has already found info on the upcoming undine reputation. Not surprising to get a new rep with a new season.

    That means we will have 20 ground and 20 space powers but can only choose 4 each and any new reps we get will increase the choices but we will still be very limited.

    Well I guess this is the answer to the "power creep" that everybody complains about. Congratulations guys! You got what you wanted but not what everybody wanted.

    I predict the game switching from power creep to a pay-to-win business model. How? Well it says we can respec our reputation traits for free any time we want. You think they will do that without adding in something to purchase? They never give us anything for free unless it requires a lot of grind and/or they add a new item to the c-store/lobi store.

    So.........I'm predicting they will come out with reputation trait slots in the c-store so we can choose more rep traits, turning the game into a pay-to-win since those with more rep trait slots will have a greater advantage then those who don't purchase any. And the rep trait slots in the c-store will probably be single character purchases.
  • michaelp1989michaelp1989 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    If you balance reputation after all this time/regret that power creep got so much out of control then why you put cr*putation to this game? STO was so much better without rep grinds imo.
    Good change for pvp though.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • malkarrismalkarris Member Posts: 797 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Reputations are all about "fighting the thing". That is to say, Omega rep is about fighting the Borg. Dyson rep is about fighting the Voth. Any new rep will be about fighting the critters that spawn in the content that give you marks for that rep.

    Right... If this was actually true, they you wouldn't have to do revamp the rep systems since they would only affect one enemy. Bonus to damage vs borg only. Bonus to damage vs Voth only and so on. The game has already started this was with weapons and sets from the rep systems, and honestly I think it would have been better to have this be the way you go. Then you can play your PvE content, and work up whatever reps you like, and it would not effect the PvP content. People who only want to fight borg are happy, people who want to fight everything are happy, and people who want to PvP are happy. Problem solved.

    Please make your check out to cash.
    This will never happen. More Reputation Slots could be given out via a game mechanic at some point, so I guess you could argue there could be a time cost or an effort cost to get another slot. But we are not charging people for Reputation Trait slots - please don't propagate fearmongering nonsense.

    Hawk, I want you to print this out and stick it on your computer, so that when the decision for this comes through, you should see why you should never say never.

    I'm sorry you feel these changes are taking something from you. I assure you, this is not our intent. I completely understand why many of you are feeling that way, and I empathize with that feeling as a player. The one question I would like all of you to ask is, "If I were making this from the ground-up, with a blank slate, how would I make it?" Taking a step back from the emotional charge that comes from change, uncertainty, and different-ness, what would the best, most systemic, most fair, most consistent set of rules be for an alternate progression system that rewards participation in content?

    We think this new system is the answer to that question. As I've mentioned repeatedly, though, all of this is subject to feedback on Tribble, and in any case where our stated goals are not being met, we will work swiftly to make this new system meet those goals.

    See what I said above. Make all reps only work on the PvE content they came from. Problem solved.
    Joined September 2011
    Nouveau riche LTS member
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    swatop wrote: »
    Thats a somewhat stupid comparison if you ask me.

    It was hyperbole. Which I'm guessing was done to essentially speak in the same language as most posters. It's sort of the dev team wink-winking the fact that people call this kind of thing a slap in the face, or X Y or Z are useless and stuff like that.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • zeuxidemus001zeuxidemus001 Member Posts: 3,357 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    So basically since KDF stuff doesn't get pushed out I have all the gimmick canon collectible ships i only use to look at lol.

    This rep change pretty much means I wouldn't have any reason to do any more reps on any characters. So in essence they are TRIBBLE themselves over and have the ques pretty much dead with most fleets starbases being done and no longer a purpose to doing reps. So go do the FE's when they come out once or twice then wait till the next one lol.

    Glad they finally freed me up to where I won't have any interest in playing anymore :)
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    tpalelena wrote: »
    The mark X and XI items are being taken out. So its mark XII only.

    Well until Mk XIII and XIV come along. Which could be part of the expansion.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • venkouvenkou Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I can see myself skipping the Undine reputation system. Unless I see something I really want, I will stick to working on the few I have in progress.
  • blessedladyboyblessedladyboy Member Posts: 349 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    So we're going to only be able to pick 4 ground and 4 space powers out of a choice of 16 powers each? 8 powers out of 32? That doesn't seem fair.

    And someone has already found info on the upcoming undine reputation. Not surprising to get a new rep with a new season.

    That means we will have 20 ground and 20 space powers but can only choose 4 each and any new reps we get will increase the choices but we will still be very limited.

    Well I guess this is the answer to the "power creep" that everybody complains about. Congratulations guys! You got what you wanted but not what everybody wanted.

    I predict the game switching from power creep to a pay-to-win business model. How? Well it says we can respec our reputation traits for free any time we want. You think they will do that without adding in something to purchase? They never give us anything for free unless it requires a lot of grind and/or they add a new item to the c-store/lobi store.

    So.........I'm predicting they will come out with reputation trait slots in the c-store so we can choose more rep traits, turning the game into a pay-to-win since those with more rep trait slots will have a greater advantage then those who don't purchase any. And the rep trait slots in the c-store will probably be single character purchases.

    They won't do that.. But they may add rep traits to lockboxes.
  • aegon1iceaegon1ice Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I've seen this assertion made repeatedly, and I want to clarify - I'm not saying a new 50 should be equal to a veteran 50, nor will they be under this new system. I am saying that combat math where a fresh 50 deals 500 DPS but a veteran 50 deals 40,000 DPS is too wide a performance delta to sustain gameplay between those two actors.

    I still don't see the reason here. Are you talking about PvE differences between those two or PvP?

    From the PvE standpoint it literally makes no difference if veteran player who dedicated so much energy and time to equip, optimize his character and equipment if he blows up NPCs in 10s or in 20s. The NPC doesn't matter this, only the player who feels powerful, because he has got to this point.

    From the PvP standpoint it makes no sense at all. Are you seriously expecting a newbie player who just hit 50 to be a match, equipment-wise and skill-wise for a veteran player? You cannot even compare two fully equipped veteran players in PvP since it all comes down to skill and not passive powers in a on-on-one situation.


    Which all leads to the fact of the whole argumentation structure behind this revamp. Passive powers are not the "data" which are blamed here for a game flaw. There is no I-win-reputation power nor there was. All those powers add only a slight bonus to your power-roster which is basically defined by your equipment. The difference is that equipment is way way easier to find and get (for a newbie captain) than a T1-5 reputation power since you guys bar it behind a huge grind factor. And now you are blaming the reputation system for something which is not adding to the so-called "DPS-gap" you claim it does to.

    Instead of cutting long-term dedicated players you should maybe look into ways to offer new captains to get to on-par with them - if you already go down the road and blame the "efficiency gap".

    Seriously devs, this is a severe wrong step. I am okay with balancing, but this is not balancing. It is taking away too much from dedicated players who sepend endless time and effort for their reputation powers. There needs to be a more step towards making it up for those. 4 slots is not nearly a compensation for the pain you suffer to actually be good at the game. Increase at least the slots to 5+1 per rep. faction.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    That's a misnomer though Hawk. I can assure you that someone with no reputation powers at all can dish out incredible DPS if they know what they're doing and how to build a ship properly.

    The rep bonuses help to sharpen a knife, but if you're using a wet noodle in the first place it's not going to matter anyways.

    I will have to call BS on this one.... is he exaggerating... yes a little... but his point is valid.

    Do you really think there are many new players that are going to get anywhere close to matching one of my ships that is pushing 40k DPS ?

    Seriously ? lol

    The content is boring for me... but for a new player who average 4-5k DPS (I parse pugs enough to know I am 100% being kind right now). For them the content is challenging right now.

    The point is valid.... and the only real issue is this change doesn't really solve it.

    I am still going to be doing 40k DPS... because there are many many other power creep factors.

    However I look at this as a great sign... because they seem to get power creep is a major issue... and if they start with rep passives... I am really really hoping they take it a few more steps.

    I am fine with my 20k cannon... ships getting smacked down to 12k... and my 40k Beam ships getting beat down to 15k... and my 25k torp boats getting pushed back down to 12k as well.

    If the game was at a point where new players where doing the 4-5k... and vets where doing 10-15k... then Yes I could say ok 2-3k was gear and the rest was Player XP.

    The issue is that is NOT what is happening... the real truth is ... new players are doing more like 2k... with a few with previous general MMO skill pulling 4-5k... with Vet players doing anywhere from 15-60k depending how much junk they are running.

    That is not sustainable. ... and I am super happy that Someone at Cryptic seems to be saying that.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • tpalelenatpalelena Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Getting the level cap to 60..... and invalidating all the fleet and rep gear.... that will be the biggest nerd rage gaming ever saw.


    Mind.... they could do it by adding XIII-XIV rep and fleet gear that could be exchanged for old gear and marks.

    Like...:

    Mark XIV omega set shield:
    1500 marks, 100k expertise, 100k credits, 50k dil.... OR 500 marks, 20k expertise, 20k credits, 15k dil and one MArk XII omega set shield.

    And do this for all the end game gear. But I do think Cryptic will be too lazy to do that, and the nerd rage will be the end of it.
    Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    It's just not infinitely scalable. As I pointed out in the blog, if we had 100 reps in the current live setup, the difference in performance between a fresh 50 and a "complete" 50 would be so immense they wouldn't fit in the same proverbial room.

    So Everquest just turned 15 this month. And started giving out free level 85s with 5,000 AAs. Kind of timely, eh? (As in, that would be the example of the kind of ongoing scaling you're trying to avoid, as a fresh level capped EQ character is literally THOUSANDS of levels behind where they need to actually be).
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • zeuxidemus001zeuxidemus001 Member Posts: 3,357 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    They won't do that.. But they may add rep traits to lockboxes.

    Basically trying to reuse as many assets as possible to limit and make more money but yet continuing a content drought. If it wasn't for such high dilithium no one would bother with dyson stuff since battlezone is only thing ppl do for dyson rep lol.
  • anagrojanewayanagrojaneway Member Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    robeasom wrote: »
    From what it sounds like we will spend more time micromanaging our powers rather than doing the content

    Exactly.

    AND I LIKE MICRO-MANAGING - but, it's got to stop, somewhere.

    That's why this is hitting like a ton of latinum bricks - yay, another thing to spend time on before I can actually play the game, if I don't want to waste the things I have spent time earning.

    With all the excellent changes, as I said above, I shouldn't be surprised a terrible one was coming.

    It will make me just have no interest in further reputation types once I have a power set I like - I don't have time or willingness to grind through a reputation just to get stuff I might maybe use sometimes when I play. Stuff I have to remember to switch over to, etc.

    And all because of PvP - which I don't dislike, but I do dislike changing the whole game around to suit it. This is not going to encourage more people to PvP - time and time again, MMO's have shown - people who PvP do, people who don't PvP don't. No changes they make are suddenly going to make it so much more attractive to folks who come in and hit level 50 in a few days by DOFFing, or to suddenly make folks who already play want to PvP.

    I'm so burnt out on "3-pc", "4-pc", and now "5-pc" sets as it is, especially with how ridiculously hard to understand stats and powers are in this game to begin with, so getting a nifty new power (I greatly prefer the passives, because I'm tired of having to kick other things out of my power bars), and the fun of playing through the content is really all reputations held for me to begin with.

    I'll just fill up my slots, and be done - I'll log in once in awhile when a new episode comes out to do the story missions, and not bother with reputation any further - I don't need to earn more things that I can only sometimes use and that I have to remember to sit and futz with in menus every time I want to play something different.
  • kimonykimony Member Posts: 571 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    What's next..."Coming in Season 9 - Season of the Nerf Dev blog 6...We keep swinging the nerf bat and now all ship weapon, console and boff slots have been halved! It is a good thing for the players! It will help the new players! And, as a reward for the players who have done the grind all this time we will also give you half of all dil/ec/rep mark rewards you grind for and cutting your current stock of dil/ec/rep marks in half! Because it's not fair that someone who has been grinding for a couple of years has more than a new player! Enjoy all the great improvements!"

    ^^^^this^^^

    #SaucersForever #TrianglesCutDeep #TeamBeta #ShipOneisNumberOne
  • cha0s1428cha0s1428 Member Posts: 416 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    ...including one PvP change that had plenty of entitled high level players miffed.

    I see you keep using this word. You should stop using it because it doesn't mean what you think it means.
  • swatopswatop Member Posts: 566 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I am absolutely convinced that soon Cryptic is going to sell additional Trait slots for Zen.

    That seems to be the master plan behind everything here.
    They already sell totally overpowered ships to make money and in order to compensate this mess they take away the skills that other people had to work for.
  • genrldestructiongenrldestruction Member Posts: 194 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    bunansa wrote: »
    LOL what?


    No No No......People had to choose before....now you get all of it and waste the time to choose each time you decide to go do something else....
    Today for 1 hour I shall fight the borg...wait let me get my powers set...ok im good...hmm still beat elite in 3 minutes wtf??

    Well let me go ground and kill some dinos....wait let me get my powers set for that....hmm did that without any issues either....wtf??

    as before though when you did have to choose a skill from each rep tier and that's all you had....you might have been great at one thing but not so great at something else...now you are epic at everything it just takes a few moments to pick and choose before each map...

    I would tend to agree, but I haven't actually sat down and played with the new system yet to get a feel for it. I'd be more in agreement if the passives in question were "doubly effective" against their intended enemy (borg, voth, etc). I reserve all judgement until I have actually used the system.

    With that said, if I were to redesign the system, I would first need to nail down the intent of the system. If the intent is for players to have a meaningful system of player progression, then the current system makes slightly more sense. There is, of course, the problem with "power creep." If the intent of the system is to encourage players to make meaningful choices (As the blog says "We want players to be able to use all of the powers they’ve earned, and we want to encourage experimentation and gaining a deeper understanding of how the game’s mechanics work")... I'm not sure that the system as described hits that mark.

    Why? Because people will gravitate towards the increases to crit and damage. They will similarly gravitate towards defensive powers if they are more of a "tank." They will make their choices and stick with them because swapping powers for every map/enemy will be too much of a chore. There will be no experimentation, because there will be a handful of people who quickly find the "best 4" (Probably before the system even hits Holodeck) and then that becomes the core build for everyone for the next X years.

    I haven't played World of ******** in several years, but I have followed it. I know that they redesigned their talent system to remove such passive traits because they weren't interesting choices. Now the talent system is a set of choices between situational active powers. The passive increases for damage, healing, defense were all baked into their class design. Which begs the question here: are passives worth it? Having 16-20 passives that almost never get used is a waste of those passives.
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