the nerf bat really doesnt make much difference, the horse already bolted and pwe were just too late to notice it. they need to tackle the power creep first, cuts its legs from underneath it first then worry about the rest later in controlled conditions.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I'm reserving any judgment until I try this stuff on tribble but the only reason I've done any rep was for the passives. I use fleet gear so the gear isn't for me anyways. I think this paves the way for more balancing and sets a good stage for an overall PvP revamp in the future. I never like working for things and having them taken away. Yes I know I'm getting dimes instead of nickels but if I have 8 friends instead of 4 I need 8 nickels not 4 dimes. I like diversifying my ship with a balance of health and attack passives and this is going to make me look at what to sacrifice and it will most likely be health passives.
I think that this will ultimately make ships stronger than before at the expense of other passives because there is no cost in dying. If my ship blows up, so what, I just respawn so no incentive to waste traits on a healing ability. This where the games true problem lies... there is no cost for dying and there fore no incentive to spend skill points and traits on staying alive. Ultimately, I suspect most will take the passives that buff damage. The only place where dying matters is PvP and until there is a cost in dying people will always build for the kill and the game will remain unbalanced.
It will go something like this... most will buff for damage... complain that enemies are too easy... systems team will buff enemies... those with balanced builds won't measure up... we will be right back where we started.
I like the idea Adjudicatorhawk we just need balance across the board and incentive to play with other classes and the best thing to do this would be a cost for dying to balance the attack abilities. I appreciate your hard work and being frequently in the forums even when the feedback is less than stellar. Thanks.
Gold Sub since March 2010
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
I really don't know what to think about this one. On the one hand, I really like things that can be changed easily and cheaply, most of the fun of the game is in carefully designing a setup and then basically letting it go and wreak havoc. I also like that I could skip some of the traits that seem really lackluster, or lackluster for a particular build, in favor of better ones. The flip side is, I am definitely bothered by the huge reduction in what we have available, I probably wouldn't even mind if it were 6 slots, but cutting the total number in half seems distasteful. Oh, and this change is probably going to be power creep, even if it does put a cap on it going forward, because there are a lot of passives that are pretty meh (5% HP, DR debuff when the enemy is almost dead), so being able to skip those in favor of the tougher choices will increase overall power.
A nerf straight to the Rep Systems knees. People are thinking cool now we dont have to complete all the reps because we cant use all the powers anyways. however you fail to realize cryptic knows this and is going to come up with powers that will be strategically placed and gear unlocks to force you still complete each rep system.
So how will be that any different from what we're already doing ?
Not to mention that the active powers will remain T5, so if you want to fill those 4 active power slots, you will still need to grind to T5.
Ignum CampaignNWS-DBBV2EY9G "The quest for the Book of Ignum"
Well, i'm not sure the active powers are the issue, ala power creep.
My opinion also, but I gather that many poster's disagree. I had no problem with the system as it is, but depending on how many more reputations are to be introduced I can understand Cryptic's need for limiting the bonuses it provides and allowing for a more personalized system.
The passive powers, they represent the toons growing understanding of the enemy and their ability to tweak their ship to better face them.
Which means you can swap them in or out.
Again the passives apply to all enemies and don't reflect understanding of any particular one. And I'm missing how passives would be swappable with the implication that actives shouldn't be.
I've seen this assertion made repeatedly, and I want to clarify - I'm not saying a new 50 should be equal to a veteran 50, nor will they be under this new system. I am saying that combat math where a fresh 50 deals 500 DPS but a veteran 50 deals 40,000 DPS is too wide a performance delta to sustain gameplay between those two actors.
Thats a somewhat stupid comparison if you ask me.
If someone is doing 40k DPS he is for sure not doing it because of the current reputation system.
You are comparing apples and oranges here and using the results as justification for a very questionable decision.
will we gain new slots as more reputations are added in the future? currently have 4 reps... so 4 ground slots 4 space slots. or will we only ever have 4 space slots?? which we have to keep paying to respec if we like a new power from a future rep?
i dont care really, i recognize the system would eventually get too big for itself if you guys keep adding to it (which you obviously will) but i dont appreciate the across the board nerf.
Technically, you are correct. Veteran players will experience a sudden drop in proficiency. Instead of having sixteen reputation passives active at once, veteran players will see the following drop:
All players will have four slots for passive Ground powers, four slots for passive Space powers, and four slots for Active powers.
Veteran players will be reduced from 16 active passives to 8. Four for space and four for ground.
However, you can collect all 16 passives, and use them in a interchangeable manner.
If you had 8 nickels before, and now you have 4 dimes, is that a nerf because you have half as many coins?
It is if I wanted to keep the nickels. I worked hard for those nickels, who are you to say what value they are to me? Maybe I don't like dimes and rather keep my nickels.
Want to balance the game, eliminate stacking all together - and introduce stacking penalties instead. Job done.
As for reputation powers, to be fair I am glad to see them get looked at. I've never liked them, more passive junk on top of the junk we already have...traits, doffs, multiple set bonuses...ugh...why not add them as further character trait options and forget reputation powers all together? I dunno.
One does hope the doff system gets another look too. I can imagine the reaction to that 'balance pass'.
I've seen this assertion made repeatedly, and I want to clarify - I'm not saying a new 50 should be equal to a veteran 50, nor will they be under this new system. I am saying that combat math where a fresh 50 deals 500 DPS but a veteran 50 deals 40,000 DPS is too wide a performance delta to sustain gameplay between those two actors.
so when are you going to tackle traits and doffs from scam boxes? More powercreep in them than the rep system, or are they out of bounds because they earn you money... :rolleyes:
How on earth does a fully repped person deal 40000 dps compared to a fresh level 50?
If that was your reasoning behind the rep change, then omg lol
Thank you, thank you, thank you! This change is epic.
Anti powercreep, more diversity...lovely idea and I don't think anyone thought of it!
Will the traits be saveable in loadouts?
Anti powercreep, yes which is good...but more diversity I kinda doubt unless they make everything equally attractive in its own way which would be very hard to say the least.
Two things I personally want out of this...be it four or eight or whatever number...I don't really want to be forced to have to pick ground or space slots...I don't have to for my standard traits so why must I for these new ones?
Second, like I said in a earlier post I would like Enhanced Shield Penetration to affected torpedoes, help fight two power creeps at once!
I've seen this assertion made repeatedly, and I want to clarify - I'm not saying a new 50 should be equal to a veteran 50, nor will they be under this new system. I am saying that combat math where a fresh 50 deals 500 DPS but a veteran 50 deals 40,000 DPS is too wide a performance delta to sustain gameplay between those two actors.
This is laughable at best due to how romulans and certain federation based ships were put into the power creep but KDF being left behind in this but when it comes to discussing a KDF player they are no concern in this assertion lol.
It's like federation player comes to me after only viewing a battle cloak from their fed romulan or reman perspective and is loaded up on reman infiltrator stacking passives having like near a minute of cloaking ambush time and says to me that they already have battle cloak as there is no power creep issue with bops. All the meanwhile this person has no idea a KDF player cannot achieve this and all bops but one only have 3 tactical consoles.
I do see though so many assertions but its like you guys go and break something that doesn't need to be broken but yet leave what needs to be fixed to thus not solve the problem and get raged at the entire time. Which all this does is make your job harder on yourself and not move forward with any positive production due to the fact that the assertion is made on things that have nothing to do with the REAL problem.
already several people suggested that 4 isnt enough with the new rep system, at some point pwe will have to upgrade from 4 ground/space to 5 ground space. i just dont see how this will work this way.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
... and the only thing missing from that little lecture is this finishing sentence :
"and everybody should be like me ! "
:rolleyes:
The cool aid buddy , the cool aid ... .
Has nothing to do with me.
I have been here since launch and have 16 full rep full gear full everything toons. If I play a MMO I PLAY a mmo... I don't fool around and max everything as fast as anyone can.
I am not stupid though and have played enough games to know the Developers need to keep the game healthy for me to have any fun in those games long term.
Games that can't attract new players become stale and die.
To attract new players you have to have a system that rewards people enough to feel rewarded when they play... while keeping things at a point where an end game is in sight.
People don't play old MMOs that go to level 200 because it takes far to long to level to end game... people don't do 4 or 5 month long PvP gear reps in games that have tiered PvP gear. They don't do that because it feels like you need to get wailed on for months on end before you have even close to equal stats.
STO has no issue with leveling for new players we all know that.
They do however have a GROWING problem with end game power creep issues. New players are looking at more and more grinding in order to catch up... Much of that is real and some of it is perception... doesn't really matter how that shakes out though... it leads to new players leaving.
None of us want the game to get to a point where new players don't stick for more then a few weeks.
We all want new players to come in and feel like they can play this game and have fun from day one right though to the point where after a month or two of building there toons... they are jumping into hard mode missions or PvP with long time vets and having a good time... and sticking around.
The game is not likely going to grow much more... I know I don't want to see it shink away and slowly die. The reality is though this game is at that point in its life... it has peaked and now it is about maintaining numbers... people will leave no matter what... the only question is now how well Cryptic can manage to get the small numbers of real new players to stick around. As well as keeping players that return after breaks sticking as well. I would bet at this point there are as many people returning after months away as there are actual new players.
We need those players to feel like they need to stick around.
If the system stays as it is and creep just keeps running... STO will turn into EVE no doubt. A game where new players are a low single digit % of the pop. EVE has the long time players sold and they only loose a few players every month... STO doesn't have that going for them.
With all of the awesome changes lately, I guess it should be expected that a terrible one would make it in.
I'm so tired of slots and power tray juggling and mulch-piece sets and earning stuff I'll not be able to use, and have to constantly play with builds so I don't feel like I'm not taking advantage of what I've earned. I just want to freaking play, particularly since stats in this game are so confusing as it is.
What I liked about the reputation powers was that they were straight-forward and simple. I especially loved the passive ones, because I don't have room on my toolbar to be mixing and matching any more, and changing bars in combat just doesn't work for me.
Now we will have yet another tab to manage, another bunch of useless things I will earn that only a percentage will I ever be able to use, and another thing to sit and futz with in between actually playing the game.
There SHOULD be a power gap between long-term players and newbies. It seems this is all centered around the fact that it seems the game wishes to move in the direction of more PvP - and if that's the case, there are ways to balance out folks who participate in PvP without having to change the entire game for everyone else. When in PvP missions/queues/whatever, you can simply level out the players - bump up the newbies, taper down the vets, if you insist on trying to make a more level playing field for those players that choose to play PvP.
This is definitely going to reduce my desire for future reputation types. I'm likely just going to say "ugh, why bother, I have enough powers" - and if there is one carrot dangling there for me, that I feel I need to have, I'll really resent felling like I've got to grind through a whole reputation tree to get one power which I'll then replace something else I've earned. Build/teardown/build/teardown/rinse/repeat is not what makes a fun game.
I guess the "you can swap them anytime" is meant to be the salve, but in practice, I just don't think anyone but a select few will ever take advantage of that. So much of this game is slotting and menu jumping already, managing wonky toolbars, etc. - I can't imagine many of us want to spend even more time prepping up to do a mission than we already do.
In practice, of course, we'll just have to deal with it - but it sounds like another system that won't get much use because it's just too darn micro-managing and annoying to bother with.
I dont fail to realize, all Mk XII Gear is a T5 unlock ...
There is a nerf at Omega, Romulan and Tholian Rep that had MK X and XI variants but we just need to max one Rep (Omega) and never bother with anything else.
Ultimate this means people will just run Omega or Romulan, I serious doubt the other sets are competitive and even if so, people will follow Cryptic example of the path of less resistance and just go with the less painful/cheaper.
Except they have already stated those 3 older reps are being change to match Dyson, so I am afraid you did kind of "forget to realise" there.
We already have a rep system respec token, so we already have that product in place. I wonder if this will lead up to the purchase of lobi store passives.
We at Cryptic would like to thank you choosing Star Trek Online as your destination for MMO game-play. We know you have many alternative MMO's out there to choose from, and that makes us appreciate your patronage even more.
It has come to our attention that you have spent months of hard work and effort gaining levels in our reputation system. We have put many man hours ourselves to make sure this is a rewarding system that rewards dedication from our players and enriches the player's experience.
Sadly though, we have been made aware of a handful of newly leveled 50 PVP players that are upset that they can't consistently defeat veteran PVP captains that have spent months leveling in our reputation system. So, instead of telling them to quit whining and spend a few months gaining reputation like everyone else, we have decided to scrap to old system. Not only will this placate the whiners, but it will also help us fix the power creep problem that we weren't smart enough to see coming.
This will never happen. More Reputation Slots could be given out via a game mechanic at some point, so I guess you could argue there could be a time cost or an effort cost to get another slot. But we are not charging people for Reputation Trait slots - please don't propagate fearmongering nonsense.
If Rep choices get tied to load outs hower it certainly incentives players to buy load out slots for convienence. 2 free slots won't be enough to cover PVE- and PVP-gear anymore because we'll need to select different passives for different STF's.
To be frank, I never really felt like the passives were worth anything.
I only worked on the reps to get the 50k dil, gear, and sometimes the active power.
When I crossed each tier, if I even chose a passive, I just picked one based on my character: eng got health boosting, tac got dmg boosting, sci got a mix, with lean towards health. Never though much more about it.
I certainly didn't notice much improvement on those that got a power.
Heck, even the T5 nukara power isn't that good. If I'm not close enough it does nothing and resets the 5 min timer.
I already don't change BOFF slots, don't change loadouts, and won't change trait slots.
I don't do PvP and PvE works fine for me. I don't want to micromanage. I just want to play.
Comments
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I think that this will ultimately make ships stronger than before at the expense of other passives because there is no cost in dying. If my ship blows up, so what, I just respawn so no incentive to waste traits on a healing ability. This where the games true problem lies... there is no cost for dying and there fore no incentive to spend skill points and traits on staying alive. Ultimately, I suspect most will take the passives that buff damage. The only place where dying matters is PvP and until there is a cost in dying people will always build for the kill and the game will remain unbalanced.
It will go something like this... most will buff for damage... complain that enemies are too easy... systems team will buff enemies... those with balanced builds won't measure up... we will be right back where we started.
I like the idea Adjudicatorhawk we just need balance across the board and incentive to play with other classes and the best thing to do this would be a cost for dying to balance the attack abilities. I appreciate your hard work and being frequently in the forums even when the feedback is less than stellar. Thanks.
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
That being said, it should be some fun trying out this new "Reputation Traits" system
Virinat Detachment
Joined: January 2013
So how will be that any different from what we're already doing ?
Not to mention that the active powers will remain T5, so if you want to fill those 4 active power slots, you will still need to grind to T5.
"The quest for the Book of Ignum"
"I have seen your future. I have seen your end"
I really wonder if we were seperated at birth, because that much nonsene couldnt f
Again the passives apply to all enemies and don't reflect understanding of any particular one. And I'm missing how passives would be swappable with the implication that actives shouldn't be.
Again I agree and have no problem with the system as is.
Thats a somewhat stupid comparison if you ask me.
If someone is doing 40k DPS he is for sure not doing it because of the current reputation system.
You are comparing apples and oranges here and using the results as justification for a very questionable decision.
Veteran players will be reduced from 16 active passives to 8. Four for space and four for ground.
However, you can collect all 16 passives, and use them in a interchangeable manner.
You just cannot use all 16+ at once.
It is if I wanted to keep the nickels. I worked hard for those nickels, who are you to say what value they are to me? Maybe I don't like dimes and rather keep my nickels.
:mad:
As for reputation powers, to be fair I am glad to see them get looked at. I've never liked them, more passive junk on top of the junk we already have...traits, doffs, multiple set bonuses...ugh...why not add them as further character trait options and forget reputation powers all together? I dunno.
One does hope the doff system gets another look too. I can imagine the reaction to that 'balance pass'.
so when are you going to tackle traits and doffs from scam boxes? More powercreep in them than the rep system, or are they out of bounds because they earn you money... :rolleyes:
How on earth does a fully repped person deal 40000 dps compared to a fresh level 50?
If that was your reasoning behind the rep change, then omg lol
Anti powercreep, yes which is good...but more diversity I kinda doubt unless they make everything equally attractive in its own way which would be very hard to say the least.
Two things I personally want out of this...be it four or eight or whatever number...I don't really want to be forced to have to pick ground or space slots...I don't have to for my standard traits so why must I for these new ones?
Second, like I said in a earlier post I would like Enhanced Shield Penetration to affected torpedoes, help fight two power creeps at once!
This is laughable at best due to how romulans and certain federation based ships were put into the power creep but KDF being left behind in this but when it comes to discussing a KDF player they are no concern in this assertion lol.
It's like federation player comes to me after only viewing a battle cloak from their fed romulan or reman perspective and is loaded up on reman infiltrator stacking passives having like near a minute of cloaking ambush time and says to me that they already have battle cloak as there is no power creep issue with bops. All the meanwhile this person has no idea a KDF player cannot achieve this and all bops but one only have 3 tactical consoles.
I do see though so many assertions but its like you guys go and break something that doesn't need to be broken but yet leave what needs to be fixed to thus not solve the problem and get raged at the entire time. Which all this does is make your job harder on yourself and not move forward with any positive production due to the fact that the assertion is made on things that have nothing to do with the REAL problem.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Has nothing to do with me.
I have been here since launch and have 16 full rep full gear full everything toons. If I play a MMO I PLAY a mmo... I don't fool around and max everything as fast as anyone can.
I am not stupid though and have played enough games to know the Developers need to keep the game healthy for me to have any fun in those games long term.
Games that can't attract new players become stale and die.
To attract new players you have to have a system that rewards people enough to feel rewarded when they play... while keeping things at a point where an end game is in sight.
People don't play old MMOs that go to level 200 because it takes far to long to level to end game... people don't do 4 or 5 month long PvP gear reps in games that have tiered PvP gear. They don't do that because it feels like you need to get wailed on for months on end before you have even close to equal stats.
STO has no issue with leveling for new players we all know that.
They do however have a GROWING problem with end game power creep issues. New players are looking at more and more grinding in order to catch up... Much of that is real and some of it is perception... doesn't really matter how that shakes out though... it leads to new players leaving.
None of us want the game to get to a point where new players don't stick for more then a few weeks.
We all want new players to come in and feel like they can play this game and have fun from day one right though to the point where after a month or two of building there toons... they are jumping into hard mode missions or PvP with long time vets and having a good time... and sticking around.
The game is not likely going to grow much more... I know I don't want to see it shink away and slowly die. The reality is though this game is at that point in its life... it has peaked and now it is about maintaining numbers... people will leave no matter what... the only question is now how well Cryptic can manage to get the small numbers of real new players to stick around. As well as keeping players that return after breaks sticking as well. I would bet at this point there are as many people returning after months away as there are actual new players.
We need those players to feel like they need to stick around.
If the system stays as it is and creep just keeps running... STO will turn into EVE no doubt. A game where new players are a low single digit % of the pop. EVE has the long time players sold and they only loose a few players every month... STO doesn't have that going for them.
I hope you actually read through this all Devs. Among the mindless rabble there are some really great points from many people.
I'm so tired of slots and power tray juggling and mulch-piece sets and earning stuff I'll not be able to use, and have to constantly play with builds so I don't feel like I'm not taking advantage of what I've earned. I just want to freaking play, particularly since stats in this game are so confusing as it is.
What I liked about the reputation powers was that they were straight-forward and simple. I especially loved the passive ones, because I don't have room on my toolbar to be mixing and matching any more, and changing bars in combat just doesn't work for me.
Now we will have yet another tab to manage, another bunch of useless things I will earn that only a percentage will I ever be able to use, and another thing to sit and futz with in between actually playing the game.
There SHOULD be a power gap between long-term players and newbies. It seems this is all centered around the fact that it seems the game wishes to move in the direction of more PvP - and if that's the case, there are ways to balance out folks who participate in PvP without having to change the entire game for everyone else. When in PvP missions/queues/whatever, you can simply level out the players - bump up the newbies, taper down the vets, if you insist on trying to make a more level playing field for those players that choose to play PvP.
This is definitely going to reduce my desire for future reputation types. I'm likely just going to say "ugh, why bother, I have enough powers" - and if there is one carrot dangling there for me, that I feel I need to have, I'll really resent felling like I've got to grind through a whole reputation tree to get one power which I'll then replace something else I've earned. Build/teardown/build/teardown/rinse/repeat is not what makes a fun game.
I guess the "you can swap them anytime" is meant to be the salve, but in practice, I just don't think anyone but a select few will ever take advantage of that. So much of this game is slotting and menu jumping already, managing wonky toolbars, etc. - I can't imagine many of us want to spend even more time prepping up to do a mission than we already do.
In practice, of course, we'll just have to deal with it - but it sounds like another system that won't get much use because it's just too darn micro-managing and annoying to bother with.
Except they have already stated those 3 older reps are being change to match Dyson, so I am afraid you did kind of "forget to realise" there.
We at Cryptic would like to thank you choosing Star Trek Online as your destination for MMO game-play. We know you have many alternative MMO's out there to choose from, and that makes us appreciate your patronage even more.
It has come to our attention that you have spent months of hard work and effort gaining levels in our reputation system. We have put many man hours ourselves to make sure this is a rewarding system that rewards dedication from our players and enriches the player's experience.
Sadly though, we have been made aware of a handful of newly leveled 50 PVP players that are upset that they can't consistently defeat veteran PVP captains that have spent months leveling in our reputation system. So, instead of telling them to quit whining and spend a few months gaining reputation like everyone else, we have decided to scrap to old system. Not only will this placate the whiners, but it will also help us fix the power creep problem that we weren't smart enough to see coming.
Sincerely, Cryptic
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~LaughingTrendy
Joined - 9/2011
"You Best Make Peace With Your Dear & Fluffy Lord" - Malcolm Reynolds
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
If Rep choices get tied to load outs hower it certainly incentives players to buy load out slots for convienence. 2 free slots won't be enough to cover PVE- and PVP-gear anymore because we'll need to select different passives for different STF's.
I only worked on the reps to get the 50k dil, gear, and sometimes the active power.
When I crossed each tier, if I even chose a passive, I just picked one based on my character: eng got health boosting, tac got dmg boosting, sci got a mix, with lean towards health. Never though much more about it.
I certainly didn't notice much improvement on those that got a power.
Heck, even the T5 nukara power isn't that good. If I'm not close enough it does nothing and resets the 5 min timer.
I already don't change BOFF slots, don't change loadouts, and won't change trait slots.
I don't do PvP and PvE works fine for me. I don't want to micromanage. I just want to play.