So, they do this to remove constant increases at the end of the game, so why would people actually keep playing at all then ? They get a good reputation set of gear, enough rep to fill those slots, not really any need to do any further content at all.
Honest question.
Do you have any fun at all when you play this game ?
Get rid of all the improvements, leave them as is, and leave the max at 8 ground, 8 space, 4 active. (if you want to still do the complete changes to powers that's different, just get rid of the 2x increases)
That way we keep all the same that we currently have but will be forced to remove powers to add powers from new reps.
And any new player can look at the reps and say okay i only want to do these 4 for these powers.
It keeps things where they are now and will stop future power creep by not allowing more than what we already have. it will still stop many veterans from even bothering with future reps, but no where near as bad as dropping us from 8 each to 4.
This^^^^^
Why not this? Is each and every new rep really the MOST IMPORTANT THING (tm) to ever happen to the game?
Guys, this is STO, not League of Angels or Tynon or whatever other bad Asian MMO is out this week. If your business model is focused on churn-and-burn (getting new players and keeping them until they get tired and can no longer be enticed by the new shiny), then you have already failed.
STO is the sort of game with players who want to work for their toys, and then keep those toys. We want to play grueling, tough, brain-stimulating, and enjoyable missions (Terradome, Battlezone, good STF runs, Step Between Stars), get our shinies, and then keep those shinies free of the nerfbat. We want something that gives our brains a workout, and we want rewards for our time and dedication.
If you need to nerf something that everyone has in a game like this (for example, rep trees, entire ship classes, various items), then you have failed. If you give us a boring, repetitive grind with nothing to sweeten the deal, then you have failed.
The grindaversary was borderline, but at least Step between Stars is fun to replay, and the mini-Q mission had dil as a reward so it wasn't a soul-crushing grind. But I fail to see the point of grinding for rep and new rep shinies when I can just get my Dyson set, my Borg set, and/or my Fleet shinies and go kill with those.
Rep system as-is forces you to play smart. It provides some min-maxing buffs, but not enough to break the game. New version is going to leave everyone in min-maxed PWNscorts just spamming CSV 3.
In a nutshell, I am unhappy with the proposed changes.
This looks like a a very PvP specific nerf, AGAIN.
This has nothing to do with PvP. It has everything to do with keeping the expected performance of players within targeted bounds, and keeping those targets reasonable for the difference between a max-geared/specced player and a min-geared/specced player.
PvP is very good at highlighting corner cases of systems where things work poorly. Almost universally, those cases are actually really bad PvE design too. In a game where the PvP and PvE rules are the same, if you see something really frustrating in PvP, it probably shouldn't be that way in PvE either. That doesn't mean we wouldn't change it if PvP weren't in the game - it just means it would be harder to find or identify the offending systems imbalance.
Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
I'm sorry, I know I'm going to sound like so much of a jerk, but the rage here is so grand I think you could set a forest fire with it.
It's starting to sound like they're angry that they are now forced to make choices and decide on what they want to do instead of making the choice right then and there and proceeding to roflstomp everyone by smashing their head across the keyboard.
I, for one, welcome our new change overlords. As I said, I never gave two motions towards the Rep powers as I never really understood them. They were bonuses, so I chose one and moved on. I wanted the ship gear and now I want the ground gear. Now maybe I'll pay attention to them and see what I can do.
Seriously, its the basic idea of this change.... "The new players cant compete!"
Well, maybe they shouldnt have waited so long to play!
Maybe not so harsh...
We were all new players once and guess what, we managed to work our way up and become competitive! They need to quit catering to the least common denominator in this game as it only ends up ruining it for the veteran players.
There is a reason they are doing this: to sell more trait respec tokens.
I hate being right.
.....wat
There are no respecs involved in the Reputation Trait power selection. Any time you are out of combat, you can choose to slot any Reputation Trait to which you've unlocked access.
Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
So, they do this to remove constant increases at the end of the game, so why would people actually keep playing at all then ? They get a good reputation set of gear, enough rep to fill those slots, not really any need to do any further content at all.
Hopefully people would keep playing because the stories are entertaining and thought provoking in a way that shows the game is worthy of the "Star Trek" name. (Cryptic can take this to mean that I'd rather have more story missions than more reputations.)
On the issue at hand... I will wait and see how things play out on Tribble before I jump to any conclusions.
One thing does stand out, though, with the active powers. I notice they weren't specifically stated as being ground/space slots, but combined. I would like some clarification on that.
WOW - so we knew THIS was only going to be a matter of time!! :mad:
You guys do know how long players spend grinding to unlock the unlocks to unlock the ability to unlock the ability to pay for the powers and such with each Rep system, right?!
Why don't you guys fix the stuff that needs fixing: PvP, the continuous crashes/server instability, the kinks and bugs that have not been dealt with since Beta, and LEAVE THE STUFF THAT WORKS ALONE?!
There IS a point of diminishing returns, guys... :rolleyes:
Fleet Commander
Caprica's Revenge (...actually active since November 2010, which may one day be important to archaeologists, but not to anyone else...)
There are no respecs involved in the Reputation Trait power selection. Any time you are out of combat, you can choose to slot any Reputation Trait to which you've unlocked access.
Even on a combat map?
So, cloak, strike, not like what you see, recloak, respec, come back in?
One thing the few folks that are upset there max rep toons are getting nerfed are missing.
Look over some of the changes. Yes you will be limited to 4 space and 4 ground... but do some math on it. There are only 2 per rep anyway.... and some of the rep passives are in fact getting major buffs. +20% crtd... double the shield pen... 50% more resistance from the dyson rep.
Yes you will have to deactivate a max of 4 from the current system... but the 4 you are keeping are in some cases doubled. Not to mention you can change them out at will... and say take 4 full on offensive ones for PvE and swap to a few defensive ones for Harder content or PvP.
This isn't really a nerf if you look at it with a logical eye. Looking at our current reps this will mean you can drop a few of the ones that don't really help your build... and select ones that do boost your build and find them with major buffs on them now.
Overall this is NOT a nerf at all.... don't just react until you consider how this will honestly effect your builds... this change makes all of my builds stronger.
Keep telling yourself that.
Maybe it might hold true for you, but many of the passives are different enough that for some people it is a really big deal.
Hopefully people would keep playing because the stories are entertaining and thought provoking in a way that shows the game is worthy of the "Star Trek" name. (Cryptic can take this to mean that I'd rather have more story missions than more reputations.)
On the issue at hand... I will wait and see how things play out on Tribble before I jump to any conclusions.
One thing does stand out, though, with the active powers. I notice they weren't specifically stated as being ground/space slots, but combined. I would like some clarification on that.
Hmm guess I have missed these "thought provoking storylines" that keep me playing
The active powers currently are just any 4 from what was said, not enough to limit them yet.
wow way to make the rep system completely pointless and drive even more players away.
I for one rarely play anymore because this game is so stale and getting worse. but hey new players all that matter right?
-This will make new reputation powers obsolete, unless the new reputations have gear or powers so much powerful than those of previous reputations added before.
-Taking stuff away from players is never a really good PR move. -This will of course open up "Buy more reputation trait slots" . Yes, others called that already.
-This does lessen the grind, since it makes having more than 2 reputations maxed out pretty useless.
Personal perspective:
-I am having what I worked for weeks on end taken away from me. I'm being robbed here.
-However..... I wont have to grind reputations anymore, they arent worth it.
Now, I feel a bit violated by this. Honestly, whoever came up with this should be fired immediately, because he or she does not qualify to work in the gaming industry, and should find employment elsewhere.
I'll be sure to tell everybody i know to stop buying zen.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
Just make it 8 passives ground, 8 passives space, 4 actives.
That way, the new system (which is a good one) will be implemented, without hurting the very people which are actually grinding through the stuff you are throwing at them.
Keep telling yourself that.
Maybe it might hold true for you, but many of the passives are different enough that for some people it is a really big deal.
Yeah, but for min/maxers there'll be a right way and what everyone else is doing.
There are no respecs involved in the Reputation Trait power selection. Any time you are out of combat, you can choose to slot any Reputation Trait to which you've unlocked access.
36 days without sponsorship, and it takes me about an hour and a half to two hours a day to get enough for a days rep projects.
There you go 36 days (if you play every single day)... average casual player only plays 3-4 days a week... and even if we assume they do NOTHING but grind rep... so no PvP no content just for fun ect. They are now at around the 50-60 day mark. So thats 2 months of spending 2 or so hours doing nothing but grind content every time they play the game.
Yep sounds like a great way to keep customers around... I can't imagine why Cryptic would want to put some limits on that.
Again now add another 2-3 reps to that... a year from now your 1-2 hours of grind a day could easily become 4 if they have 7-8 reps instead of just 4.
Which is why I say look at this as a future proofing option. A year from now when there are 8 reps... you could easily choose to only grind 2-4 of them as a new player... and be looking at that 1-2 month time frame to "catch up". Then when they have one toon ready to go... they could start alts and either play completely new to them grinds with other reps... or get tokens and power through the same content.
I shudder to think what will happen in PvP when this happens.....
Say you have a premade, 2 FAW scims, 2 bugs and one sci, all with elachi weapon (as happened today in fact). Not only can they now buff CrtH even more, but they can have insane shield regen and if each slots the ability that can turn your weapons off........yeah thtas gonna be fun. fun fun fun
You have just completely alienated your long term players with this change. You say sitting up in space with just space traits, ever think why this is? Ground is TRIBBLE in comparison to other mmos.
I will not be a party to this and will not be spending a single penny more on this game until this is reviewed or changed!
It would make more sense to make it so everyone keeps their hard earned current rep powers but make it so all future powers have to be selected.
Just make it 8 passives ground, 8 passives space, 4 actives.
That way, the new system (which is a good one) will be implemented, without hurting the very people which are actually grinding through the stuff you are throwing at them.
Avoid hurting your reputation (no pun intended ), Cryptic.
If you begin to take stuff away, for that people grinded, nothing is safe anymore.
Unlocked all Powers on multiple chars and have to say - I really LOVE the changes, one step away from power creep and towards a balanced and more diversed gameplay, great job Cryptic guys
Isn't there an inherant assumption in what you're arguing here?
The assumption that a newly minted VA should be able to compete on a level playing ground with a 3 year veteran VA.
Shouldn't the 3 years at VA level count for something?
Hell no. That is how MMOs die.
Why do you not go and play EvE ?
I am not saying that because I think you should leave or something...
The population in Eve though doesn't grow... why doesn't it grow.
Because of your above reasoning. You will NEVER EVER be compedititve with long time players in EvE as a new player. At least not unless you are willing to put a diaper on and play 24/7 for a year.
I would much rather new players come in and be close to on par with me after a month or two of playing the game.
Because frankly they will NOT be anywhere close to my skill level. I have 4 years of expeirence.
As far as PvP goes... I will trash a new player with full rep and max gear in a tier 4 ship with green junk and no rep... because I know how to play and have thousands of hours of XP.
I don't want new players to ever have to blame gear or X or Y Grind for not being able to get better at the game.
Well I didn't bother to read any other posts but to be frank, bad move, bad move indeed. In one swoop you've managed to mangle a lot of builds that people spent a lot of time and money on but also wasted time on some of the crappier rep systems.
Comments
A proactive edit to allow for growth of differing reputations.
To be honest, I've lost tracks of my passives over time. Now I'll focus more...
I hate being right.
It is also to slow us down even more to make content last longer.
Isn't there an inherant assumption in what you're arguing here?
The assumption that a newly minted VA should be able to compete on a level playing ground with a 3 year veteran VA.
Shouldn't the 3 years at VA level count for something?
Honest question.
Do you have any fun at all when you play this game ?
or
Do you only play to complete your grind ?
This^^^^^
Why not this? Is each and every new rep really the MOST IMPORTANT THING (tm) to ever happen to the game?
Guys, this is STO, not League of Angels or Tynon or whatever other bad Asian MMO is out this week. If your business model is focused on churn-and-burn (getting new players and keeping them until they get tired and can no longer be enticed by the new shiny), then you have already failed.
STO is the sort of game with players who want to work for their toys, and then keep those toys. We want to play grueling, tough, brain-stimulating, and enjoyable missions (Terradome, Battlezone, good STF runs, Step Between Stars), get our shinies, and then keep those shinies free of the nerfbat. We want something that gives our brains a workout, and we want rewards for our time and dedication.
If you need to nerf something that everyone has in a game like this (for example, rep trees, entire ship classes, various items), then you have failed. If you give us a boring, repetitive grind with nothing to sweeten the deal, then you have failed.
The grindaversary was borderline, but at least Step between Stars is fun to replay, and the mini-Q mission had dil as a reward so it wasn't a soul-crushing grind. But I fail to see the point of grinding for rep and new rep shinies when I can just get my Dyson set, my Borg set, and/or my Fleet shinies and go kill with those.
Rep system as-is forces you to play smart. It provides some min-maxing buffs, but not enough to break the game. New version is going to leave everyone in min-maxed PWNscorts just spamming CSV 3.
In a nutshell, I am unhappy with the proposed changes.
This has nothing to do with PvP. It has everything to do with keeping the expected performance of players within targeted bounds, and keeping those targets reasonable for the difference between a max-geared/specced player and a min-geared/specced player.
PvP is very good at highlighting corner cases of systems where things work poorly. Almost universally, those cases are actually really bad PvE design too. In a game where the PvP and PvE rules are the same, if you see something really frustrating in PvP, it probably shouldn't be that way in PvE either. That doesn't mean we wouldn't change it if PvP weren't in the game - it just means it would be harder to find or identify the offending systems imbalance.
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
It's starting to sound like they're angry that they are now forced to make choices and decide on what they want to do instead of making the choice right then and there and proceeding to roflstomp everyone by smashing their head across the keyboard.
I, for one, welcome our new change overlords. As I said, I never gave two motions towards the Rep powers as I never really understood them. They were bonuses, so I chose one and moved on. I wanted the ship gear and now I want the ground gear. Now maybe I'll pay attention to them and see what I can do.
the slow increasing improvement in the character and the ship IS the fun
Maybe not so harsh...
We were all new players once and guess what, we managed to work our way up and become competitive! They need to quit catering to the least common denominator in this game as it only ends up ruining it for the veteran players.
.....wat
There are no respecs involved in the Reputation Trait power selection. Any time you are out of combat, you can choose to slot any Reputation Trait to which you've unlocked access.
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
Hopefully people would keep playing because the stories are entertaining and thought provoking in a way that shows the game is worthy of the "Star Trek" name. (Cryptic can take this to mean that I'd rather have more story missions than more reputations.)
On the issue at hand... I will wait and see how things play out on Tribble before I jump to any conclusions.
One thing does stand out, though, with the active powers. I notice they weren't specifically stated as being ground/space slots, but combined. I would like some clarification on that.
You guys do know how long players spend grinding to unlock the unlocks to unlock the ability to unlock the ability to pay for the powers and such with each Rep system, right?!
Why don't you guys fix the stuff that needs fixing: PvP, the continuous crashes/server instability, the kinks and bugs that have not been dealt with since Beta, and LEAVE THE STUFF THAT WORKS ALONE?!
There IS a point of diminishing returns, guys... :rolleyes:
Fleet Commander
Caprica's Revenge
(...actually active since November 2010, which may one day be important to archaeologists, but not to anyone else...)
Is it balanced content? No...and yep, that's exactly what happens.
Even on a combat map?
So, cloak, strike, not like what you see, recloak, respec, come back in?
Terrible idea.
Keep telling yourself that.
Maybe it might hold true for you, but many of the passives are different enough that for some people it is a really big deal.
Hmm guess I have missed these "thought provoking storylines" that keep me playing
The active powers currently are just any 4 from what was said, not enough to limit them yet.
I for one rarely play anymore because this game is so stale and getting worse. but hey new players all that matter right?
From a game designing perspective:
-This will make new reputation powers obsolete, unless the new reputations have gear or powers so much powerful than those of previous reputations added before.
-Taking stuff away from players is never a really good PR move.
-This will of course open up "Buy more reputation trait slots" . Yes, others called that already.
-This does lessen the grind, since it makes having more than 2 reputations maxed out pretty useless.
Personal perspective:
-I am having what I worked for weeks on end taken away from me. I'm being robbed here.
-However..... I wont have to grind reputations anymore, they arent worth it.
Now, I feel a bit violated by this. Honestly, whoever came up with this should be fired immediately, because he or she does not qualify to work in the gaming industry, and should find employment elsewhere.
I'll be sure to tell everybody i know to stop buying zen.
Just make it 8 passives ground, 8 passives space, 4 actives.
That way, the new system (which is a good one) will be implemented, without hurting the very people which are actually grinding through the stuff you are throwing at them.
Yeah, but for min/maxers there'll be a right way and what everyone else is doing.
In that case I love the new system as proposed
Still waiting to be able to use forum titles
There you go 36 days (if you play every single day)... average casual player only plays 3-4 days a week... and even if we assume they do NOTHING but grind rep... so no PvP no content just for fun ect. They are now at around the 50-60 day mark. So thats 2 months of spending 2 or so hours doing nothing but grind content every time they play the game.
Yep sounds like a great way to keep customers around... I can't imagine why Cryptic would want to put some limits on that.
Again now add another 2-3 reps to that... a year from now your 1-2 hours of grind a day could easily become 4 if they have 7-8 reps instead of just 4.
Which is why I say look at this as a future proofing option. A year from now when there are 8 reps... you could easily choose to only grind 2-4 of them as a new player... and be looking at that 1-2 month time frame to "catch up". Then when they have one toon ready to go... they could start alts and either play completely new to them grinds with other reps... or get tokens and power through the same content.
This is a good business choice for Cryptic.
this is both a nerf and a buff!
I shudder to think what will happen in PvP when this happens.....
Say you have a premade, 2 FAW scims, 2 bugs and one sci, all with elachi weapon (as happened today in fact). Not only can they now buff CrtH even more, but they can have insane shield regen and if each slots the ability that can turn your weapons off........yeah thtas gonna be fun. fun fun fun
You have just completely alienated your long term players with this change. You say sitting up in space with just space traits, ever think why this is? Ground is TRIBBLE in comparison to other mmos.
I will not be a party to this and will not be spending a single penny more on this game until this is reviewed or changed!
It would make more sense to make it so everyone keeps their hard earned current rep powers but make it so all future powers have to be selected.
Avoid hurting your reputation (no pun intended
If you begin to take stuff away, for that people grinded, nothing is safe anymore.
It will be anarchy!
An Anti-Grind Revolution!
Hell no. That is how MMOs die.
Why do you not go and play EvE ?
I am not saying that because I think you should leave or something...
The population in Eve though doesn't grow... why doesn't it grow.
Because of your above reasoning. You will NEVER EVER be compedititve with long time players in EvE as a new player. At least not unless you are willing to put a diaper on and play 24/7 for a year.
I would much rather new players come in and be close to on par with me after a month or two of playing the game.
Because frankly they will NOT be anywhere close to my skill level. I have 4 years of expeirence.
As far as PvP goes... I will trash a new player with full rep and max gear in a tier 4 ship with green junk and no rep... because I know how to play and have thousands of hours of XP.
I don't want new players to ever have to blame gear or X or Y Grind for not being able to get better at the game.
I wonder how EVE Online plays now a days...