oops, my apologies, I stand corrected. I had confused raider with raptor.
No apoligiess needed. Im typing from a phone so I make all sorts of gramatical errors.
I am assuming though that the Devs have similiar mechancs to Cruiser commands planned for Escorts. I also hope they have Plans for Science ships use of dual deflectors.
Which is true will be a boon to the feds as I do not think the KDF has any science capable ships with dual deflector designs. I would be fine with that since Science is not a Klingon strength per se.
Then you would not be Starfleet though your hypocrisy to the IP Gene created would remain.
I guess its true. The real Star Trek fans died out years ago since some on this page certainly have no idea what the UFP and Star Fleet where about.
How funny how often the Klingon Empire is condemned for being barbaric warmongers and dishonorable in action, or how the Romulans are the epitome of deceit yet so many so called feds wish to be just like them and worse.
(Corrected your spelling a bit)
Lol. Tell me, where in canon, since that's being called out, that starship commanders in the UFP/Starfleet retained access to, much less ownership of, their previous ship commands.? (I don't even think KDF allowed that either, or even any other star-faring military in the shows, movies, or even soft-canon stuff, like the novels.
Hate to say it, but like some others, in other threads, have said: "This isn't really Star Trek, it's more of a space MMO with a sprinkling of Trek flavour."
So acting this way, in this game, isn't really hypocrisy. It's more like, trying to adapt in. And as I've said before as well, my version, for "RP" purposes, is that my characters are "faction-aligned", rather than truly belonging to said factions military. Explains a bit, both the equipment & ship issues, as well as how you effectively have gained rank so quickly.
On another note, I don't think it'd be so bad to have a "Terran Alliance/Empire" sub-faction, although I'd like to also see them pull the Klin version (which I think was the IDF"? correct if I'm wrong. Also, maybe the Rihan version as well. Be kind of nice to actually have full fledged Mirror Universe military forces running around. Just not sure the game engine or coders could handle putting in, effectively, 4 vs factions.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
On another note, I don't think it'd be so bad to have a "Terran Alliance/Empire" sub-faction, although I'd like to also see them pull the Klin version (which I think was the IDF"? correct if I'm wrong. Also, maybe the Rihan version as well. Be kind of nice to actually have full fledged Mirror Universe military forces running around. Just not sure the game engine or coders could handle putting in, effectively, 4 vs factions.
The klingon corresponding sub-faction would be the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance (that's where the A.K.S. prefix for mirror klingon ships comes from).
By so, it'd be like giving those who play the Alliance free access to mirror-issued Galors, Hidekis, Jem'Hadar attack ships (maybe), B'rel, Negh'Var and whatever klingon ship you can think of.
So, it's not going to happen.
I dont need to peddle my "weak argument" when I actually have one, you dont.
Yes weak. Here why.
Also this Federation Gameplay, not Klingon Gameplay ... apparently we cannot have this conversation at all without KDF players feeling the need to sidetrack this conversation to suit their own agenda.
One, I never stated that the Raider was a canonical designation for the Klingon birds of prey. You where the one who wanted that evidence for the straw man argument you started.
Two, the evidence you cite as proof of federation raiders is false.
Maquis raider may have once been a federation ship but it was never used by the federation as a raiding vessel. That use and the vernacular of raider came years later when the terrorist group the Maquis took them and used them raiding vessel against the cardassians. The ship was small and had only four crew stations and only operated on impulse engines.
Last I checked the Maquis are not a part of the federation, hence the ship used by Chakotay is not a fed raider.
Bajoran raider was an even smaller vessel not created by the federation that had sub-impulse engines, two crew stations, poor weaponry and no defenses of any kind. A glorified shuttle for attacking the Cardassians.
Gorn starship was an much larger vessel used by the Gorn to raid targets. Also not as Federation vessel by any stretch of the imagination.
Kazon raider is also a subpar shipped used to raider though it is so weak one was once destroyed by a federation shuttle craft. Also not as Federation raider.
Theta class starship
A much stronger vessel given the name raider because that was its functional use by the Miradorn. A ship I would like to see ingame as a freelance option but it too is not a federation vessel.
Nausicaan raider a cool looking ship in my opinion that was easily outclassed by the federation NX class vessels, and still not a federation raider.
Tzenkethi raider Hardly any info exists on this vessel though it too is not a federation raider.
at the end of the list we have the only vessel that truly comes close to being a federation vessel, and only because it belongs to the Terran Empire of the Mirror Universe - the Terran raider. A vessel that is used by the evil, warmongering and deceitful version of mankind that most fedfans seem to want to be rather than the faction that they claim to enjoy playing in STO.
A vessel that if compared to its prime universe counter part would be called a federation attack fighter.
So as I said, weak argument. Unless you wish to fly the fast attack fighter craft, a refurbed out of date Maquis raider or a Bajoran attack shuttle (with fire extinquishers under the seats).
Or you could enjoy the free Breen raider given to you by the Winter event and stop trying to rationalize why the feds would have raiders too like the evil old Klingons.
After all, what is the Federation uniqueness? being targets for the KDF master race because its not hard to find certain positions on the subject of the "Klingon Science Ships".
Who gives ****? We KDF had carriers until they where taken by fedwhine fans. We had battle Cruisers until the fedwhine fans.
You do not get to bemoan a lack of uniqueness after plundering another faction of thiers and cry foul when mommy and daddy don't wipe your nose for you over the next toy you wish to take from the other kids.
And I am certainly done, the amusing thing is I only started posted here because the obvious +1 Mogh pissed me off, I dont even think the Cloak should be a build-in ability but after the Mogh I moved my position it should be a device because "thematic" its too costly for a console slot, there is no further reason to discuss this because there is no desire to even engage in conversation.
I could care less. The heroes of the federation and Star Fleet don't cloak and skulk by their creators own words, so go find whats left of Gene, resurrect him and ***** to him.
Well things certainly exploded and went to hell-in-a-handbag here. Let's see if I can shuffle back in some semblance of being on topic.
In regards to statements of Raptors needing a buff, already been stated many, many times prior, and it not argued against. It also been pointed out it is counterproductive to overall quality of the game as a whole to want to keep a ship family inferior because of such. Eye-for-an-Eye never really works.
On Raiders and their coming flanking buff, not really on topic. However as I still see BoPs shred quite effectively as of late, one could argue that they don't need it just as some have argued innate cloak isn't needed for the few ships which can in Starfleet. But improvements to the game for balance is good. As for the rest of the Raider back-and-forth it's primarily just terminology and lacks relevance as a whole. That's all I'll touch on here as it is getting off topic.
The brief touching on Sci ships again, once more getting off topic. Also part of that argument had the same stink as many PvPer posts. "We're just better" is never a valid position in a debate. :rolleyes:
To Fed's lacking uniqueness, this is rather correct. The nothing distinctly 'Starfleet' in regards to game mechanics; thus the cries about cloaking when it is already shared between three factions is rather petty. Even more petty is acting like Feds lacking such is okay and the contrary is evil.
Three cloaking ship classes don't make the Federation into the Terran Empire, it makes for tactically adept vessels, ones which were designed for war, or retrofitted for it in the case of the Gal-X. The Federation is facing a war against many foes, having their few dedicated warships built to utilize a powerful technology makes sense.
Cruiser commands are not Starfleet, they're cruiser. Most Starfleet Cruisers are made for holding the line, and thus tanking. KDF however utilize Battlecruisers almost exclusively, which are built offensively and it makes sense they don't get the tank aura. Same with the spread of stats, and such. The Avenger lacks the tank aura as well. The Gal-X is a weird beast with only the Weapon and Tank Aura. If KDF were to get line cruisers, such as Gorn manufactured ones, then they would logically receive 4-command ships.
Though even with that command, cruisers still can loose aggro, haha...
And coming to Gene... The man has become larger than life, how people think of him is often skewed. He kept a deathgrip on the IP and associated rights until he passed and would milk everything he could out of it with merchandising and such. He was not a fan of militarized Starfleet, yes, in the shows. As this game has taken quite a radical turn from the state of things on the screen, I would suspect he'd write it off as 'Alternate Universe' and milk all he could, including the money from Fed cloakers. :P
In the end, we've had a bunch of smoke and distractions. Nothing really touching on the conflict of standards; just talking about other things in loose relation. Flanking has no factor, neither the cruier/battlecruiser differences. Starfleet has three ships which are falling behind the powercreep due to what is an innate power being forced to rely on a console for one faction and not the other two. Amplified by the stated stance that standard cloak is not considered 'good enough' to warrant reducing stats of KDF ships with it, to compensate.
I honestly still see no valid reason why feds should get this ...
You can argue lore and all the rest but it just doesn't sit in this game.
Why should feds get innate cloaking with no cost to their ships like kdf/roms do ?
Personally I could agree with that, 100%.
As long as something from The Fed's stays unique, in this case, most likely, the larger array of sci vessels. (Which granted, is somewhat balanced, already, by the KDF's larger array of battlecruisers, full carriers, and I believe they even have more "utility" carriers).
What I'd like to see, overall, is a moderate, to large, number of ways, ship types, ship mechanics, etc etc, that make EACH faction unique, or at least that they have an advantage on.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
I honestly still see no valid reason why feds should get this ...
You can argue lore and all the rest but it just doesn't sit in this game.
Why should feds get innate cloaking with no cost to their ships like kdf/roms do ?
KDF ships don't pay for a standard cloak, which is what the three Starfleet ships also have. The Devs stated it's not important enough to require a stat reduction; what is see is asymmetrical balance in stats (admittedly poorly so with some ships).
Roms have Battlecloak and an integrated bag of tricks on all Warbirds in exchange for the reduced power levels, which if you know what you're doing turns it into a steal. There's a reason Roms can now beat KDF at their own game in terms of STO gameplay.
In the end, Romulans only factor in as power-creep; as they weren't really balance to the original two factions. Thus we have the issue of one faction getting basic cloak for free, the other which already has a very restricted range of cloaking ships, has to pay for it both in the C-Store (sometimes twice), and then pay for it in logistics and ship performance.
Thus the problem, thus the persistence of this topic.
Personally I could agree with that, 100%.
As long as something from The Fed's stays unique, in this case, most likely, the larger array of sci vessels. (Which granted, is somewhat balanced, already, by the KDF's larger array of battlecruisers, full carriers, and I believe they even have more "utility" carriers).
What I'd like to see, overall, is a moderate, to large, number of ways, ship types, ship mechanics, etc etc, that make EACH faction unique, or at least that they have an advantage on.
I'm sure I'm reading this wrong so please tell me where I messed up.
You are saying Starfleet should have a great battlecruiser and raptor and the KDF should never get anything that matches your large number of sci ships, your sci carrier, your escort carriers, cruisers, and other things that the KDF and Romulans have no pound for pound even match to?
Again. I'm sure I misread you cause no one would be so GREEDY to say something like that.
Personally I could agree with that, 100%.
As long as something from The Fed's stays unique, in this case, most likely, the larger array of sci vessels. (Which granted, is somewhat balanced, already, by the KDF's larger array of battlecruisers, full carriers, and I believe they even have more "utility" carriers).
What I'd like to see, overall, is a moderate, to large, number of ways, ship types, ship mechanics, etc etc, that make EACH faction unique, or at least that they have an advantage on.
Why are we repeating a dead issue. The feds originally had innate cloak on certain ships, till it was placed as a console before Season 2. Ask any longstanding pre-beta player.:rolleyes:
Why are we repeating a dead issue. The feds originally had innate cloak on certain ships, till it was placed as a console before Season 2. Ask any longstanding pre-beta player.:rolleyes:
Due to a shift in game balance and powercreep, thus rendering the ability being tied to a console as a growing handicap, highlighted by Devs stating the newest KDF ship is okay as being +1 on the Starfleet counterpart because Standard Cloak isn't amazing enough anymore to warrant penalizing a ship which has it; unless it is Starfleet. Business and balance double-standards in a nutshell, which is a terrible dishonest thing.
Starting to resort to belittling and derogatory remarks now?
Two fundamental points you're deliberately ignorant of (apparently)
1) Power-creep: Hits everyone who isn't Romulan, dude, and KDF has been getting plowed by it a lot harder than the Fed side for a lot longer-remember, we actually had to pay for most of the integrated standard cloaks we've got-the Mogh's the first one we've gotten where we didn't take hits to hull, shields, inertia, or turn rate (usually choose two from the list).
You seem to be misunderstanding here, KDF battlecruisers don't pay for their cloaking, they are battlecruisers not line cruisers so their stats of course will be considerably different but are not inferior. They turn better and can mount dual cannons for full frontal assaults, offensive formatting versus defensive.
Looking at it, even arguably the Raptor doesn't pay for it, it just suffers from inferior design with the coders trying to asymmetrically balance it, and making it feel more in line to Klingon 'Less shields more hull more crew' and overall handle a bit different to Fed Escorts. Cryptic just failed to do it right.
2) You still have two of the highest decloak-alphas in the game (right behind the Scimitar).
Up to two now? I recall you focusing on the Defiant, where'd the other come from? Though in the end, you keep forgetting KDF had the most devastating Decloak-Alpha pre-Scimitar potential; the Bortasqu' Tactical Cruiser, yes it is hard to follow up with if the target survives the Alpha, but it can out-gun the Tact-Escort's Alpha and is by far more tenacious.
in addition to those points...
3) of the three factions, the Federation is the one that not only doesn't have it, but also doesn't NEED it. Multiple faction-specific ships comparable to the Bugship (Steamrunner, Defiant, Kumari), Escort-capable Carrier (Armitage), Your very first Battlecruiser was released as a +2 equivalent to the best KDF FLEET Battlecruiser (remember the Mogh took 3 months LONGER to be released), the Tor'kaht, and still outperforms it (before you include the Fleet version of the Avenger). This is outperforming a ten-console character-unlock ship with a c-store account unlock ship-the very first one of the class for your faction-it hit the point where the developers really can't progress the class as a whole.
Again crying Fed's have their own Bug, now up to 3? Your numbers seem keep increasing every time you make claims to Fed epicness; inconsistency belies truthfulness. If you could combine those three ships into one, you would have a Bug. Instead they fall short in one area or another, as they should.
KDF also still have the Kar'Fi Battlecarrier in comparison to the Armitage; both compose the JH Carrier duo analogs for crossover.
You only hit accuracy in this point with the Avenger being good, but the Mogh has balanced that out. And neither has instantly obsoleted every other Battlecruiser in the game, they just off some better pure-offense builds.
You can't claim your faction is non-viable without integral cloak, you already HAVE (with the console) the most powerful non-Romulan cloaking-strikes in the game.
You're not after balance. Quit trying to paint your desires as being about balance. You want dominance.
You're misconstruing my position once again to suit your own position and agenda instead. It's becoming a broken record for myself to state the issues, the gross double-standards imposed by the Devs and the growing inferiority of the console reliance enforced by the prior in comparison to the other side. Making the cloak innate for three ships doesn't break the game, it balances out the ships which all use standard cloak, which is deemed a minor advantage and not worth penalizing ships which have it.
All that is at risk of being destroyed is a state of double-standards and imposed inferiority of a handful of ships in light of the current state of the game.
So, as you said: "You're not after balance. Quit trying to paint your desires as being about balance. You want dominance."
Here is the thing you are not getting. If we do things your way the KDF loses the right to say they have the best battlecruiser and best raptor (both titles they are barely holding on to)
So let me give you a story before a new player joining STO a few weeks after we enter your 'balanced' world.
Little Johnny sees an ad for STO. He makes a thread about first to make sure his time is wasted. Smart move Johnny. This is how Johnny's thread would look I think.
Little Johnny: I would like to join this fine game. I'm think I will make a KDF first. My father was always a big fan of Worf.
XxSection31Spook420xX:Unless you are making a dil farmer you are gimping yourself. Fed or Fed-Rom. They do everything the KDF can do better
CaptainsWoman69:What spook said. Anything the KDF can do fed or a fed-rom can do better. Only pvpers play KDF for cheap consoles. *This is the part where Captain who is an Orion would fly away in her raptor, sorry I mean Tactical Escort spitting out acteons like they are going out of style into Kerrat "just to farm" (KDF players)*
I would add more but I can't think of more "Starfleet" sounding names. You get the idea. I have said this before and I will say it again. Each faction should have their own Strengths and Weaknesses. So please. Start asking for gear to be better STARFLEET PLAYERS and not just the blue KDF.
Looking at it, even arguably the Raptor doesn't pay for it, it just suffers from inferior design with the coders trying to asymmetrically balance it, and making it feel more in line to Klingon 'Less shields more hull more crew' and overall handle a bit different to Fed Escorts. Cryptic just failed to do it right.
Ok it seems that things are starting to clear out in the end.Fleet Defiant is one of the fed ships that is better overall that anything that Kdf has in this moment .So logically buffing Fleet Defiant it wouldn't be fair toward Kdf so it shouldn't happen.
It seems that we are thinking the same in the end :no innate cloak /no battlecloak to federation ships
2) You still have two of the highest decloak-alphas in the game (right behind the Scimitar).
Up to two now? I recall you focusing on the Defiant, where'd the other come from? Though in the end, you keep forgetting KDF had the most devastating Decloak-Alpha pre-Scimitar potential; the Bortasqu' Tactical Cruiser, yes it is hard to follow up with if the target survives the Alpha, but it can out-gun the Tact-Escort's Alpha and is by far more tenacious.
Kumari is another thing that is OP compared to what kdf has.Overwing cannons are similar to a BO so Federation faction has 5 fore+BO aka wing cannons ,5 tactical console gunship with better turn rate than any kdf raptor.I would like to buy one as kdf or a similar ship but I can't because I have no option.
I didnt bought Bortasq because of it lower turn rate but I would buy any day a kdf equivalent of Kumari because in my opinion is light years better than BortasQ.
BortasQ ,is in my opinion ,Cryptic's version of Tantal : give a 5 tactical console ship but don't give turn rate so they can't use it properly.
You only hit accuracy in this point with the Avenger being good, but the Mogh has balanced that out.
Avenger is more closer to a escort while Mogh is a cruiser.On avenger you can slot easily and safely hyper engines while on Mogh is better/wiser to stick to borg 2 pc (at least) for compensate the lack of healing due to high crew number.Mogh gets a innate cloak to compensate.These two ships are arguably balanced in my opinion as they are now.
"Quit trying to paint your desires as being about balance. You want dominance."
I am sorry I have to say the same thing about your posts.
"There already is a Borg faction, its called the Federation. They assimilate everyone else's technology and remove any biological or technical distinctiveness and add it to their own."
I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
Here is the thing you are not getting. If we do things your way the KDF loses the right to say they have the best battlecruiser and best raptor (both titles they are barely holding on to)
The Avenger is likely to be (and should be) Starfleet's sole Battlecruiser. KDF will get more that will raise the standard there, if what we've seen in the past month is any indication.
Raptors have been in a poor state since launch, repressing the Defiant isn't the answer.
(snip)
I would add more but I can't think of more "Starfleet" sounding names. You get the idea. I have said this before and I will say it again. Each faction should have their own Strengths and Weaknesses. So please. Start asking for gear to be better STARFLEET PLAYERS and not just the blue KDF.
There ships already cloak. The fact that the majority of KDF ships can cloak, and the majority of the Starfleet ships don't, should suffice for this section. But the request for balancing the three ships for Blue which cloak at this moment, right now, but at a double-standard handicap as they are, seems enough to get the KDF Mains pontificating.
PS: The Kar'Fi is nothing alike the Armitage
You failed to comprehend the analogy. The Kar'Fi battle carrier has no direct analog in Starfleet, the Armitage has no direct analog in the KDF. This is the good kind of imbalance for distinction, you know, that thing you argued for with the rest of your post.
Ok it seems that things are starting to clear out in the end.Fleet Defiant is one of the fed ships that is better overall that anything that Kdf has in this moment .So logically buffing Fleet Defiant it wouldn't be fair toward Kdf so it shouldn't happen.
It seems that we are thinking the same in the end :no innate cloak /no battlecloak to federation ships
The Tact-Escort is a VA ship to the RA Qin. At Fleet Tier, Cryptic tried to make the Raptor more of an Engineering-leaning cloaking escort, possibly under the presumption the Raiders fill the tactical role adequately. If you look back in earlier posts, you find both the conclusion the Raptor Line needs expanding at End-Game tier, and the fact that the Defiant can not just be balance against the Raptors, but against other Fed Escorts.
Innate basic cloak for the three ships is needed to eliminate the double-standard being imposed; or some other bonus to slotting the console is needed to validate the continued existence of it. Fleet Consoles are practically two-in-one, being forced to forsake one to use an ability that is considered worthless in cost towards ship balance for another by the Devs is in poor taste and balance.
Kumari is another thing that is OP compared to what kdf has.Overwing cannons are similar to a BO so Federation faction has 5 fore+BO aka wing cannons ,5 tactical console gunship with better turn rate than any kdf raptor.I would like to buy one as kdf or a similar ship but I can't because I have no option.
I didnt bought Bortasq because of it lower turn rate but I would buy any day a kdf equivalent of Kumari because in my opinion is light years better than BortasQ.
BortasQ ,is in my opinion ,Cryptic's version of Tantal : give a 5 tactical console ship but don't give turn rate so they can't use it properly.
The Kumari family is actually a good example of how to revitalize the Raptor line, though as it is for Fed it straddles the line between Raptor and Raider. Thinly hulled, big teeth, fairly nimble. Again the answer isn't to penalize one faction for the other's lacking, but to add to the KDF as well.
The Bortasqu' is a good ship, it is an exception to normal KDF designs but it still has devastating potential. It is a ship for those who think and fight several steps ahead of the moment.
Avenger is more closer to a escort while Mogh is a cruiser.On avenger you can slot easily and safely hyper engines while on Mogh is better/wiser to stick to borg 2 pc (at least) for compensate the lack of healing due to high crew number.Mogh gets a innate cloak to compensate.These two ships are arguably balanced in my opinion as they are now.
This statement confuses me to some extent. How are two nigh identical ships in different role tiers? As for the crew issue, you can not argue balance based on a bug; and as I've stated before, I don't seem to experience the same issue with the crew in my large-cap vessels. Perhaps I compensate more.
They are near balance, but the double-standard still stands. Two ships, same price, same stats aside one field, and innate cloak. The other requires a console, which comes from another C-Store ship. This creates the highlights the gravity of the problem, due to what are presented as equal-value ships, but lacking true equal balance and value.
"Quit trying to paint your desires as being about balance. You want dominance."
I am sorry I have to say the same thing about your posts.
That seems to be the ad-hominen defense of the day.
The Tact-Escort is a VA ship to the RA Qin. At Fleet Tier, Cryptic tried to make the Raptor more of an Engineering-leaning cloaking escort, possibly under the presumption the Raiders fill the tactical role adequately. If you look back in earlier posts, you find both the conclusion the Raptor Line needs expanding at End-Game tier, and the fact that the Defiant can not just be balance against the Raptors, but against other Fed Escorts.
As I told before when Kdf will get the same stat (turn rate,size,shield mod,etc) raptor as Fleet defiant then it would be fair that defiant get innate standard cloak.
Actually I think a copy paste of Fleet Defiant with innate cloak would make Fed and Kdf sides happy.It could be sold like Avenger/Mogh in two different releases and so both sides would be equal.Just buffing Defiant by giving a innate cloak is no option in this moment .
Asking just for Defiant buff is again : "Quit trying to paint your desires as being about balance. You want dominance."
"There already is a Borg faction, its called the Federation. They assimilate everyone else's technology and remove any biological or technical distinctiveness and add it to their own."
I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
As I told before when Kdf will get the same stat (turn rate,size,shield mod,etc) raptor as Fleet defiant then it would be fair that defiant get innate standard cloak.
Actually I think a copy paste of Fleet Defiant with innate cloak would make Fed and Kdf sides happy.It could be sold like Avenger/Mogh in two different releases and so both sides would be equal.Just buffing Defiant by giving a innate cloak is no option in this moment .
Asking just for Defiant buff is again : "Quit trying to paint your desires as being about balance. You want dominance."
Minor peanut gallery comment here, but where would that leave those of us who bought the non-fleet Retrofit Defiant? Sitting with a flaccid console that is now redundant? Or should we be able to potentially upgrade it, like that one guy whose name eludes me suggested, and in return, the Raptors.... maybe get an improved cloak for Fleet level? It's late, I'm tired, I'm not feeling too creative/tricky. Just as long as the Rommies don't get anything new, I agree after looking at them for long enough.
STO in a shellnut. "I always hope for the best. Experience, unfortunately, has taught me to expect the worst."
-Elim Garak
Stamp and kick your feet some more you panty waisted feds. The forums need a good display of entitlement so close to the begining of the new year to set the fed standard for 2014.
As I told before when Kdf will get the same stat (turn rate,size,shield mod,etc) raptor as Fleet defiant then it would be fair that defiant get innate standard cloak.
Actually I think a copy paste of Fleet Defiant with innate cloak would make Fed and Kdf sides happy.It could be sold like Avenger/Mogh in two different releases and so both sides would be equal.Just buffing Defiant by giving a innate cloak is no option in this moment .
Asking just for Defiant buff is again : "Quit trying to paint your desires as being about balance. You want dominance."
I wonder if the irony will set in that what you stated here, was said in another way in the very part you quoted.
Minor peanut gallery comment here, but where would that leave those of us who bought the non-fleet Retrofit Defiant? Sitting with a flaccid console that is now redundant? Or should we be able to potentially upgrade it, like that one guy whose name eludes me suggested, and in return, the Raptors.... maybe get an improved cloak for Fleet level? It's late, I'm tired, I'm not feeling too creative/tricky. Just as long as the Rommies don't get anything new, I agree after looking at them for long enough.
If the cloaks became innate, the console would likely go away, which means you can use another console in the slot, be it Fleet or another universal. Which would bring about the balance in the cloaking game mechanics which is currently skewed.
Stamp and kick your feet some more you panty waisted feds. The forums need a good display of entitlement so close to the begining of the new year to set the fed standard for 2014.
Conversely, thank you for stepping up to provide the Holier-Than-Thou, superior-being pontification to ring in the KDF stereo-type for the new year. :P
I notice you only quote bits and pieces of the Gorngonzolla post. Scared someone less biased than yourself will read the full explanation and see the logic that Dev gave for why the three cloaking fed ships are set up to cloak the way they do?
Here it is for those less biased than you to read in its complete form.
A chance to for feds to play a class otherwise unkown to them. Much like carriers which is another class that was unknown to feds.
"Starfleet shouldn't have cloak without some cost". Seems Gorngonzolla is more in touch with Star Trek than many others. He knows that Star Fleet doesn't cloak as an everyday ability for a reason, much like Gene Roddenberry intended.
KDF raptors and fed escorts pay for cloak? Whats this?!! Some would have a us believe all KDF get cloaking for freebies. How untrue. How fudged over by some to defend their bias.
KDF battle cruisers do not have this disadvantage. Its true. They never have and if the Devs had changed it with the Mogh it would be a lesser T5 Battle Cruiser than any KDF BC in the game and unwanted for being nerfed for no reason.
It would not have made money and Cryptic is a business after all. Or so it has been stated to many a KDF fan in the past. How has that changed now?
"Had we given the Avenger Cloak, we'd embark on a slippery slope where similar fed ships would be expected to have cloak."
How true is this this? Very I say. Just look at the situation. They gave cloak option to another ship well after it was already set that the feds would get no more cloaking ships.
The Devs skirted a rule to give the feds something that if they lacked on their new battle cruiser clone it would have made it less desired and not sell very well.
They broke their solemn vow for you feds and yet all you do is cry about it like they handed you a piece of TRIBBLE wrapped in a bow for Christmas.
Slipper slope indeed and I think Gorngonzolla was smarter than the feds may think in realizing that this gift of a fed cloaking Battle cruiser would only cause you all to want even more rules bent broken and changed to satisfy your biased balance. Or as Patrick already pointed out, if you give a fed an inch he will want the whole foot.
There are no double standards. The reasons have been given as to why cloaks for feds work the way they do. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong or unbalanced.
holy **** their is a intelligent mind with common sense around here pinch me i must be asleep
Alternately, if an integrated cloak is so vital to Fed interests...
Clone the stats from the Qin over, as in layout, shields, hull, Inertia and consoles, switch the Fleet Defiant's 5th tac console to an engineering slot, and they can have their cloaking defiant they want so much.
Of course, shortly thereafter, fed players would burn cryptic studios to the ground in their riot...
I like this idea. This is a good idea. This should really happen or better yet copy the fleet defiant's stats over to the qin.
Of course, shortly thereafter, fed players would burn cryptic studios to the ground in their riot...
It would seem all three of ya'll missed the 'Give KDF an expanded raptor range including a tactical one par to the Defiant' sections of my thoughts on that. :rolleyes:
Cryptic seems to want the Qin to be an Engi-raptor. So let it be so, add a new one at VA and Fleet to be tactical, and another to splash sci. Whoo, it's like rocket-science up in here.
Alternately, if an integrated cloak is so vital to Fed interests...
Clone the stats from the Qin over, as in layout, shields, hull, Inertia and consoles, switch the Fleet Defiant's 5th tac console to an engineering slot, and they can have their cloaking defiant they want so much.
Of course, shortly thereafter, fed players would burn cryptic studios to the ground in their riot...
this totally has my vote. they can even have the pivot point.
this totally has my vote. they can even have the pivot point.
Me too, mostly because the pivot point thing would get fixed shortly thereafter. I did see a interesting post about pivot point location and firing arcs... okay, I found it.
Then again, "purely visual" still screws with a pilot rather nicely; at least now we know why it seems so odd to fly. They also never answered my later question about range to target vs. range from target, unfortunately, though using the pivot point to determine where you are firing from and a hitbox to determine when you are struck would kind of make bigger less than beneficial :P
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
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oops, my apologies, I stand corrected. I had confused raider with raptor.
No apoligiess needed. Im typing from a phone so I make all sorts of gramatical errors.
I am assuming though that the Devs have similiar mechancs to Cruiser commands planned for Escorts. I also hope they have Plans for Science ships use of dual deflectors.
Which is true will be a boon to the feds as I do not think the KDF has any science capable ships with dual deflector designs. I would be fine with that since Science is not a Klingon strength per se.
R.I.P
Lol. Tell me, where in canon, since that's being called out, that starship commanders in the UFP/Starfleet retained access to, much less ownership of, their previous ship commands.? (I don't even think KDF allowed that either, or even any other star-faring military in the shows, movies, or even soft-canon stuff, like the novels.
Hate to say it, but like some others, in other threads, have said: "This isn't really Star Trek, it's more of a space MMO with a sprinkling of Trek flavour."
So acting this way, in this game, isn't really hypocrisy. It's more like, trying to adapt in. And as I've said before as well, my version, for "RP" purposes, is that my characters are "faction-aligned", rather than truly belonging to said factions military. Explains a bit, both the equipment & ship issues, as well as how you effectively have gained rank so quickly.
On another note, I don't think it'd be so bad to have a "Terran Alliance/Empire" sub-faction, although I'd like to also see them pull the Klin version (which I think was the IDF"? correct if I'm wrong. Also, maybe the Rihan version as well. Be kind of nice to actually have full fledged Mirror Universe military forces running around. Just not sure the game engine or coders could handle putting in, effectively, 4 vs factions.
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The klingon corresponding sub-faction would be the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance (that's where the A.K.S. prefix for mirror klingon ships comes from).
By so, it'd be like giving those who play the Alliance free access to mirror-issued Galors, Hidekis, Jem'Hadar attack ships (maybe), B'rel, Negh'Var and whatever klingon ship you can think of.
So, it's not going to happen.
R.I.P
In regards to statements of Raptors needing a buff, already been stated many, many times prior, and it not argued against. It also been pointed out it is counterproductive to overall quality of the game as a whole to want to keep a ship family inferior because of such. Eye-for-an-Eye never really works.
On Raiders and their coming flanking buff, not really on topic. However as I still see BoPs shred quite effectively as of late, one could argue that they don't need it just as some have argued innate cloak isn't needed for the few ships which can in Starfleet. But improvements to the game for balance is good. As for the rest of the Raider back-and-forth it's primarily just terminology and lacks relevance as a whole. That's all I'll touch on here as it is getting off topic.
The brief touching on Sci ships again, once more getting off topic. Also part of that argument had the same stink as many PvPer posts. "We're just better" is never a valid position in a debate. :rolleyes:
To Fed's lacking uniqueness, this is rather correct. The nothing distinctly 'Starfleet' in regards to game mechanics; thus the cries about cloaking when it is already shared between three factions is rather petty. Even more petty is acting like Feds lacking such is okay and the contrary is evil.
Three cloaking ship classes don't make the Federation into the Terran Empire, it makes for tactically adept vessels, ones which were designed for war, or retrofitted for it in the case of the Gal-X. The Federation is facing a war against many foes, having their few dedicated warships built to utilize a powerful technology makes sense.
Cruiser commands are not Starfleet, they're cruiser. Most Starfleet Cruisers are made for holding the line, and thus tanking. KDF however utilize Battlecruisers almost exclusively, which are built offensively and it makes sense they don't get the tank aura. Same with the spread of stats, and such. The Avenger lacks the tank aura as well. The Gal-X is a weird beast with only the Weapon and Tank Aura. If KDF were to get line cruisers, such as Gorn manufactured ones, then they would logically receive 4-command ships.
Though even with that command, cruisers still can loose aggro, haha...
And coming to Gene... The man has become larger than life, how people think of him is often skewed. He kept a deathgrip on the IP and associated rights until he passed and would milk everything he could out of it with merchandising and such. He was not a fan of militarized Starfleet, yes, in the shows. As this game has taken quite a radical turn from the state of things on the screen, I would suspect he'd write it off as 'Alternate Universe' and milk all he could, including the money from Fed cloakers. :P
In the end, we've had a bunch of smoke and distractions. Nothing really touching on the conflict of standards; just talking about other things in loose relation. Flanking has no factor, neither the cruier/battlecruiser differences. Starfleet has three ships which are falling behind the powercreep due to what is an innate power being forced to rely on a console for one faction and not the other two. Amplified by the stated stance that standard cloak is not considered 'good enough' to warrant reducing stats of KDF ships with it, to compensate.
Double-standards are bad.
You can argue lore and all the rest but it just doesn't sit in this game.
Why should feds get innate cloaking with no cost to their ships like kdf/roms do ?
Personally I could agree with that, 100%.
As long as something from The Fed's stays unique, in this case, most likely, the larger array of sci vessels. (Which granted, is somewhat balanced, already, by the KDF's larger array of battlecruisers, full carriers, and I believe they even have more "utility" carriers).
What I'd like to see, overall, is a moderate, to large, number of ways, ship types, ship mechanics, etc etc, that make EACH faction unique, or at least that they have an advantage on.
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
KDF ships don't pay for a standard cloak, which is what the three Starfleet ships also have. The Devs stated it's not important enough to require a stat reduction; what is see is asymmetrical balance in stats (admittedly poorly so with some ships).
Roms have Battlecloak and an integrated bag of tricks on all Warbirds in exchange for the reduced power levels, which if you know what you're doing turns it into a steal. There's a reason Roms can now beat KDF at their own game in terms of STO gameplay.
In the end, Romulans only factor in as power-creep; as they weren't really balance to the original two factions. Thus we have the issue of one faction getting basic cloak for free, the other which already has a very restricted range of cloaking ships, has to pay for it both in the C-Store (sometimes twice), and then pay for it in logistics and ship performance.
Thus the problem, thus the persistence of this topic.
I'm sure I'm reading this wrong so please tell me where I messed up.
You are saying Starfleet should have a great battlecruiser and raptor and the KDF should never get anything that matches your large number of sci ships, your sci carrier, your escort carriers, cruisers, and other things that the KDF and Romulans have no pound for pound even match to?
Again. I'm sure I misread you cause no one would be so GREEDY to say something like that.
Why are we repeating a dead issue. The feds originally had innate cloak on certain ships, till it was placed as a console before Season 2. Ask any longstanding pre-beta player.:rolleyes:
Due to a shift in game balance and powercreep, thus rendering the ability being tied to a console as a growing handicap, highlighted by Devs stating the newest KDF ship is okay as being +1 on the Starfleet counterpart because Standard Cloak isn't amazing enough anymore to warrant penalizing a ship which has it; unless it is Starfleet. Business and balance double-standards in a nutshell, which is a terrible dishonest thing.
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Starting to resort to belittling and derogatory remarks now?
You seem to be misunderstanding here, KDF battlecruisers don't pay for their cloaking, they are battlecruisers not line cruisers so their stats of course will be considerably different but are not inferior. They turn better and can mount dual cannons for full frontal assaults, offensive formatting versus defensive.
Looking at it, even arguably the Raptor doesn't pay for it, it just suffers from inferior design with the coders trying to asymmetrically balance it, and making it feel more in line to Klingon 'Less shields more hull more crew' and overall handle a bit different to Fed Escorts. Cryptic just failed to do it right.
2) You still have two of the highest decloak-alphas in the game (right behind the Scimitar).
Up to two now? I recall you focusing on the Defiant, where'd the other come from? Though in the end, you keep forgetting KDF had the most devastating Decloak-Alpha pre-Scimitar potential; the Bortasqu' Tactical Cruiser, yes it is hard to follow up with if the target survives the Alpha, but it can out-gun the Tact-Escort's Alpha and is by far more tenacious.
Again crying Fed's have their own Bug, now up to 3? Your numbers seem keep increasing every time you make claims to Fed epicness; inconsistency belies truthfulness. If you could combine those three ships into one, you would have a Bug. Instead they fall short in one area or another, as they should.
KDF also still have the Kar'Fi Battlecarrier in comparison to the Armitage; both compose the JH Carrier duo analogs for crossover.
You only hit accuracy in this point with the Avenger being good, but the Mogh has balanced that out. And neither has instantly obsoleted every other Battlecruiser in the game, they just off some better pure-offense builds.
You're misconstruing my position once again to suit your own position and agenda instead. It's becoming a broken record for myself to state the issues, the gross double-standards imposed by the Devs and the growing inferiority of the console reliance enforced by the prior in comparison to the other side. Making the cloak innate for three ships doesn't break the game, it balances out the ships which all use standard cloak, which is deemed a minor advantage and not worth penalizing ships which have it.
All that is at risk of being destroyed is a state of double-standards and imposed inferiority of a handful of ships in light of the current state of the game.
So, as you said: "You're not after balance. Quit trying to paint your desires as being about balance. You want dominance."
So let me give you a story before a new player joining STO a few weeks after we enter your 'balanced' world.
Little Johnny sees an ad for STO. He makes a thread about first to make sure his time is wasted. Smart move Johnny. This is how Johnny's thread would look I think.
Little Johnny: I would like to join this fine game. I'm think I will make a KDF first. My father was always a big fan of Worf.
XxSection31Spook420xX:Unless you are making a dil farmer you are gimping yourself. Fed or Fed-Rom. They do everything the KDF can do better
CaptainsWoman69:What spook said. Anything the KDF can do fed or a fed-rom can do better. Only pvpers play KDF for cheap consoles. *This is the part where Captain who is an Orion would fly away in her raptor, sorry I mean Tactical Escort spitting out acteons like they are going out of style into Kerrat "just to farm" (KDF players)*
I would add more but I can't think of more "Starfleet" sounding names. You get the idea. I have said this before and I will say it again. Each faction should have their own Strengths and Weaknesses. So please. Start asking for gear to be better STARFLEET PLAYERS and not just the blue KDF.
PS: The Kar'Fi is nothing alike the Armitage
Ok it seems that things are starting to clear out in the end.Fleet Defiant is one of the fed ships that is better overall that anything that Kdf has in this moment .So logically buffing Fleet Defiant it wouldn't be fair toward Kdf so it shouldn't happen.
It seems that we are thinking the same in the end :no innate cloak /no battlecloak to federation ships
Kumari is another thing that is OP compared to what kdf has.Overwing cannons are similar to a BO so Federation faction has 5 fore+BO aka wing cannons ,5 tactical console gunship with better turn rate than any kdf raptor.I would like to buy one as kdf or a similar ship but I can't because I have no option.
I didnt bought Bortasq because of it lower turn rate but I would buy any day a kdf equivalent of Kumari because in my opinion is light years better than BortasQ.
BortasQ ,is in my opinion ,Cryptic's version of Tantal : give a 5 tactical console ship but don't give turn rate so they can't use it properly.
Avenger is more closer to a escort while Mogh is a cruiser.On avenger you can slot easily and safely hyper engines while on Mogh is better/wiser to stick to borg 2 pc (at least) for compensate the lack of healing due to high crew number.Mogh gets a innate cloak to compensate.These two ships are arguably balanced in my opinion as they are now.
"Quit trying to paint your desires as being about balance. You want dominance."
I am sorry I have to say the same thing about your posts.
I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
The Avenger is likely to be (and should be) Starfleet's sole Battlecruiser. KDF will get more that will raise the standard there, if what we've seen in the past month is any indication.
Raptors have been in a poor state since launch, repressing the Defiant isn't the answer.
There ships already cloak. The fact that the majority of KDF ships can cloak, and the majority of the Starfleet ships don't, should suffice for this section. But the request for balancing the three ships for Blue which cloak at this moment, right now, but at a double-standard handicap as they are, seems enough to get the KDF Mains pontificating.
You failed to comprehend the analogy. The Kar'Fi battle carrier has no direct analog in Starfleet, the Armitage has no direct analog in the KDF. This is the good kind of imbalance for distinction, you know, that thing you argued for with the rest of your post.
The Tact-Escort is a VA ship to the RA Qin. At Fleet Tier, Cryptic tried to make the Raptor more of an Engineering-leaning cloaking escort, possibly under the presumption the Raiders fill the tactical role adequately. If you look back in earlier posts, you find both the conclusion the Raptor Line needs expanding at End-Game tier, and the fact that the Defiant can not just be balance against the Raptors, but against other Fed Escorts.
Innate basic cloak for the three ships is needed to eliminate the double-standard being imposed; or some other bonus to slotting the console is needed to validate the continued existence of it. Fleet Consoles are practically two-in-one, being forced to forsake one to use an ability that is considered worthless in cost towards ship balance for another by the Devs is in poor taste and balance.
The Kumari family is actually a good example of how to revitalize the Raptor line, though as it is for Fed it straddles the line between Raptor and Raider. Thinly hulled, big teeth, fairly nimble. Again the answer isn't to penalize one faction for the other's lacking, but to add to the KDF as well.
The Bortasqu' is a good ship, it is an exception to normal KDF designs but it still has devastating potential. It is a ship for those who think and fight several steps ahead of the moment.
This statement confuses me to some extent. How are two nigh identical ships in different role tiers? As for the crew issue, you can not argue balance based on a bug; and as I've stated before, I don't seem to experience the same issue with the crew in my large-cap vessels. Perhaps I compensate more.
They are near balance, but the double-standard still stands. Two ships, same price, same stats aside one field, and innate cloak. The other requires a console, which comes from another C-Store ship. This creates the highlights the gravity of the problem, due to what are presented as equal-value ships, but lacking true equal balance and value.
That seems to be the ad-hominen defense of the day.
As I told before when Kdf will get the same stat (turn rate,size,shield mod,etc) raptor as Fleet defiant then it would be fair that defiant get innate standard cloak.
Actually I think a copy paste of Fleet Defiant with innate cloak would make Fed and Kdf sides happy.It could be sold like Avenger/Mogh in two different releases and so both sides would be equal.Just buffing Defiant by giving a innate cloak is no option in this moment .
Asking just for Defiant buff is again : "Quit trying to paint your desires as being about balance. You want dominance."
I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
Minor peanut gallery comment here, but where would that leave those of us who bought the non-fleet Retrofit Defiant? Sitting with a flaccid console that is now redundant? Or should we be able to potentially upgrade it, like that one guy whose name eludes me suggested, and in return, the Raptors.... maybe get an improved cloak for Fleet level? It's late, I'm tired, I'm not feeling too creative/tricky. Just as long as the Rommies don't get anything new, I agree after looking at them for long enough.
"I always hope for the best. Experience, unfortunately, has taught me to expect the worst."
-Elim Garak
R.I.P
I wonder if the irony will set in that what you stated here, was said in another way in the very part you quoted.
If the cloaks became innate, the console would likely go away, which means you can use another console in the slot, be it Fleet or another universal. Which would bring about the balance in the cloaking game mechanics which is currently skewed.
Conversely, thank you for stepping up to provide the Holier-Than-Thou, superior-being pontification to ring in the KDF stereo-type for the new year. :P
holy **** their is a intelligent mind with common sense around here pinch me i must be asleep
I like this idea. This is a good idea. This should really happen or better yet copy the fleet defiant's stats over to the qin.
Of course, shortly thereafter, fed players would burn cryptic studios to the ground in their riot...
i like this plan this is a good plan
Cryptic seems to want the Qin to be an Engi-raptor. So let it be so, add a new one at VA and Fleet to be tactical, and another to splash sci. Whoo, it's like rocket-science up in here.
this totally has my vote. they can even have the pivot point.
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Me too, mostly because the pivot point thing would get fixed shortly thereafter. I did see a interesting post about pivot point location and firing arcs... okay, I found it.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=14005111&postcount=25
Then again, "purely visual" still screws with a pilot rather nicely; at least now we know why it seems so odd to fly. They also never answered my later question about range to target vs. range from target, unfortunately, though using the pivot point to determine where you are firing from and a hitbox to determine when you are struck would kind of make bigger less than beneficial :P