As the game progresses and new things are added, sadly we see old ones fall to the wayside. The Universal Console Cloaking Device is probably the most obvious and painful example of this issue. It?s become nearly impossible to use in any efficient manner outside of onetime use ambushes.
That being said, I don?t think it?s unsalvageable. It really wouldn?t take much to update this into an effective tool.
Only three ships are able to equip it, and all three are basically pure warships. So, shouldn?t this component reflect that fact?
An easy way to boost its value would be to change it from a Universal Console to a Device, you know, reflecting the name itself. There are already a few non-consumable devices in the game, one that even functions very similarly to a Cloaking Device. This would free up valuable console space on the few ships than can use it. Ships that don?t have much spare room in the Console department if you want to play competitively.
A second reasonable option is what people have been asking for quite some time. To update the Universal Console Cloaking Device to a Battle Cloak. Again, only three ships can use this, so its not exactly game breaking, especially if it remains as a Console. It adds a layer of versatility but still comes at a cost.
The third option would be to make a Fleet grade version that IS a Battle Cloak. This would give further incentive for people to join and build up a Fleet to its final tier levels. It would also be realistic when you consider how technology advances by leaps and bounds during war, standard grade equipment is modified and improved over time.
I suppose a fourth option could be to have a Reputation Project that allows you to refit a Universal Console Cloaking Device to a Universal Console Battle Cloaking Device. It would have to be Tier 5 of course, and require a Universal Console Cloaking Device be used as a token of payment. That way Cryptic would still get their money as people have to buy a Galaxy X or Defiant Retrofit to get it.
The third and fourth options would be most promising I believe, especially with the Romulan?s having entered into things. They have always been the most technologically advanced faction (outside the Borg or similar races) and Cloaking has always been there specialty, so perhaps something through the Embassy if not Reputation?
Anyone have thoughts or ideas on this matter?
Facerolled my keyboard then shouted at my screen. "NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO"
Then I went to kerrat, killed some feds to make myself feel better after witnessing another "Fed cloaking device" thread on the forums.
i rather we feds do not get the battle cloak since it boils down to entitlement plus but hurtin to the 10th degree while beating a dead horse on this issue. we as feds are not entittled to this notion of a battle cloak peroid just be happy with what you got..... what am i kidding i see many feds wanting more even tough the ships we get will need a buff case in point the avenger class. avenger class is Excelsior class while the ens eng boff change to uni boff and little stat changes between these classes.
It seems rationality and sensibility has gone out the window.
Patrick, this will be brief, as what you posted is barely more than a personal attack of 'Noob PvE'er can't PvP' which is quite unbecoming and degrading to the debate as a whole.
The Fleet Defiant shield mod has no stated reason to not receive the 10% increase. It would not bring it to cruiser strength, .99 is the same as the majority of Fleet-grade escorts; cruisers also receive the 10%, putting them at 1.1 on their shield modifier. The Bugship would still be better by far, nothing has the perfect storm of bonuses like it. All you've done is presented your personal loathing and bias for the Defiant as fact when we can only speculate until we get an official statement. :rolleyes: Though the a constant 'cost' we've had for innate cloaking, on raptors per nigh all KDF posters here, is a lower shield mod; which can imply similar.
The rest is nothing but a personal attack I won't dignify with addressing as it is irrational accusation and not truly relevant to the topic and I don't need to defend myself here, I do so on the battlefield quite well.
mwhitaker, as above, I'd advocate restraining yourself from the petty personal attacks, false allegations and wild analogies, posts such as that contribute little. The element you neglected in all that is the statements and evidence of the Mogh cloak making it a '+1' on the Avenger, just more value for the same amount of money. This has been a spot-light shown on the double-standard that has come to exist in regards to cloaking; when you account for other factors presented earlier in the thread as well.
Resorting to wild political-themed insults does amuse me though, especially the decrying a conservative to be a liberal. :P
The desire of people to see this thread die or be locked baffles me.
The desire sprung when your senselessness arrived on the scene. Personal attacks? I'll personally attack you right now. You're attack the whole KDF. What YOU don't seem to get, that nobody here is going to be able to get through your thick skull is that the mogh is not at all an avenger +1. The cloak is insignificant. Not a "+1" as you say. And the Feds simply aren't supposed to have cloak. Just because you whine and ***** here on the forums about how you're being mistreated and deserve a cloak isn't going to get you one you self-entitled p***k. I can hardly BELIEVE that you fed fools prefer to spend your time arguing over how the Mogh is supposedly more powerful or more for your money than the outrageously power-creep SCIMITAR. Cryptic launches than thing and you Feds don't give a TRIBBLE. Why? Cause it's not Klingon. This is obviously, and has been for a long time, typical fed "hate" against the kdf players of this game. If the Mogh is really that much to you, go play kdf. You toolbags can't keep acting like the grass is greener (on the kdf side) then expect to get the greener grass hand delivered to your side's front door. That's not how ANYTHING works. So stop being a greedy discontented bigot and get the hell out of this forum.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "The Borg - party-poopers of the galaxy"~ The Doctor
all i see is fed player base being but hurt over and over for trying to kdf/rommies tbh klinks have the right to have sci ships regardless of race. that to me is fair but will feds allow it nope sice they want to be klinks/rommies with sci ships which is bs. admit it the fed base wanting to be klinks/rommies. i think fed player base should stay away from the battle cloak all together since it is not right plus the lore/cannon card is bs attempt to justified for battle cloak, news flash cryptic just give a TRIBBLE about lore/cannon.
all i see is fed player base being but hurt over and over for trying to kdf/rommies tbh klinks have the right to have sci ships regardless of race. that to me is fair but will feds allow it nope sice they want to be klinks/rommies with sci ships which is bs. admit it the fed base wanting to be klinks/rommies. i think fed player base should stay away from the battle cloak all together since it is not right plus the lore/cannon card is bs attempt to justified for battle cloak, news flash cryptic just give a TRIBBLE about lore/cannon.
... Ok, I wasn't going to get involved in this whole debate but you just kind of shot yourself in the foot there: as far as the lore is concerned the Federation is forbidden to develope cloaking technology by the treaty of Algeron, problem is that the treaty of Algeron is made null and void by the destruction of Romulus and the reformation of the Romulan Star Empire under Empress Sela, given that Feds have experimented with cloaking tech in the past and taking into account how long they've had to advance their knowledge in that area they'd probably have the ability to create battle cloaks by this point... So you saying "news flash cryptic just give a TRIBBLE about lore/cannon." basically means "Give everyone battle cloaks and have done with it." which, I feel, is neither a good idea, nor what you meant. Basically, I'm trying to say that you contradicted your own argument entirely.
(Of course, I just realised that I also shot myself in the foot; I know more about the politics, legalities and technicalities of a fantasy world than I do about the political fine print of my own country... I'm off to read a book, this issue needs to be addressed... :eek:)
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I'm not THAT difficult to please, I just have a very low tolerance threshold for stupid BS! - George Carlin.
Alright, that covers your single-purpose Escorts at Fleet level.
Please note: The Aquarius sacrifices a weapons hardpoint, and hull integrity to get .04 more shielding than a FTER (aka Fleet Defiant).
The Fleet Saber has identical handling, but almost 30% less hull and the same shield modifier as the FTER.
The two ships with more hull and the .99 shield modifier turn slower than the Fleet Defiant, and don't have a 5th tactical console, nor does the Fleet Saber, nor does the Fleet Aquarius.
Fleet Patrol has a solid reputation as a tanking ship, the Fleet Advanced is often used with the MVAE console and is considered more of a Sci-oriented Escort.
The FTER straddles the three pointed line between high manueverability, tanking, and weapons power-it is, in fact, an apex design amongst it's peers.
AS IT SITS RIGHT NOW.
You didn't lose shielding for the ability to Cloak, your shield mod wasn't raised because you have Turn Rate and Firepower higher than your peers-the ships that can turn with you don't have the firepower or the durability you do.
NOw that's all 'Blue on blue' play-that's comparisions within the Federation's single-purpose non-composite escort class.
Now, let's look at the two KDF Fleet Raptors (the closest to 'Escorts' in the KDF lineup...)
This is all comparing 10 console ships to each other. In general performance, the KDF ships pay for their cloak with a combination of turn rate, inertia, and shield mods. Federation Escorts don't.
The blue-on-blue comparison shows it-the FTER pays for a higher turn rate and more firepower with a lower shield multiplier-one equivalent to the much, much, lighter Saber class, which does not have the added firepower of the FTER, and the Aquarius pays for it's turn rate with fewer weapons and far less hull.
Note: only the FTER can install the cloaking module among federation Escorts, and against KDF Escorts it flat outperforms them in normal space, or with the cloak installed.
Sorry, Teron, but the numbers don't support your position. Not even a little bit.
These threads need a 1+ or karma system because you would have gotten a thumbs up from me
Patrick, you're doing a good job of making me Picard facepalm almost daily. Well, might as well cut to the quick with this one; I've wasted far too much time correcting you as it is.
Fleet Saber (yes, that other little escort), Shield mod .90, Turn Rate 17, no inertia rating listed, Hull 27,600
Wrong again. You've cited the Escort Retrofit, the Tier 5, not the Fleet Tier 5.5 variant. Once again either intentionally falsifying the data to twist to your agenda, or you're just completely incompetent with research and double-checking facts.
Shield mod .99, Turn Rate 17, no inertia rating listed, Hull 30,360
Huh, look at that. It has the same shield mod as the other Escorts. Ain't that a kick in the head? Lower hull strength, but hasn't the Defiant been touted as being tougher for years due to better shields?
This vessel is classed in the shipyard as a destroyer, and is universally recognized as an inferior BoP analog without a cloak, and soon to be without flanking as well. It's in dire need of some improvements to make it worth the cost, but that's another thread.
Moving on class.
Now, let's look at the two KDF Fleet Raptors (the closest to 'Escorts' in the KDF lineup...)
Well, you even pointed it out. These aren't proper counterparts to a Fleet Defiant but other Escorts; which goes along with the other half of the discussion, the compromising element that you blow off. Raptors need work and expansion, and inclusion of a proper Tactical equivalent at Fleet grade.
This is all comparing 10 console ships to each other. In general performance, the KDF ships pay for their cloak with a combination of turn rate, inertia, and shield mods. Federation Escorts don't.
Time for some Math-hammer against the comparable Fleet-grade ships you presented. The difference in shield strength overall is about 7% (wasn't the Fleet Defiant 10%? Oh, nevermind that, right?). The difference in hull strengths is about 6% for the Qin, and 1.5% for the Somraw. Ouch, yes, seems the Somraw takes a hit here, but let's compare. The Qin in the end, is down a miniscule 1% for shield to hull trade off compared to the Patrol; the Somraw down 5.5% to the Advanced, approximate for both.
But let's look at the Fleet Tact Escort too.
The Qin as anyone can easily see has about 2% better shielding, and about 9% stronger hull.
The Somraw has the same shield advantage, and even it has roughly 5% more hull.
Great scott! These ships have better shields and hull than the vaunted 'FTER', eleven and seven percent advantages respectively. Wait, the Defiant isn't better in every way? Inconceivable! Well, it's got inertia and turn rate, right? Wait, Somraw has 70 inertia too, well damn.
Sorry, Teron, but the numbers don't support your position. Not even a little bit.
When you get the numbers strait, they do alot more than they support yours it would seem. Some of the very things you argued, already exist in game despite our collective overlooking. The Fleet Tact-Escort has worse shields and hull than the raptors, which I recall you citing something about it specifically would need a stat penalty for this debate to have any credit. There are penalties already in place.
In the end, an innate basic cloaking won't tip the scales, it will balance them. Same as it would for the Mogh and Avenger comparison, and it would at least make the Gal-X a tad more appealing though still quite gimmicky.
i noticed that fed cloak is more for the ambush than stealthiness. we dont get to be rogues like wow unfortunately. well i guess if u did displace console too but there is another slot gone
Section 31Lane/Jeffjr/Varek @jeffjr USS Stadi/USS Grendel/USS AshigaruDreadnought Class Refit / Avenger Class Refit/Rhode Island Class Refit"With your shield or on it"/"Mors venit ad omnes."/"One with courage is a majority"https://www.youtube.com/@jeffjr84
... Ok, I wasn't going to get involved in this whole debate but you just kind of shot yourself in the foot there: as far as the lore is concerned the Federation is forbidden to develope cloaking technology by the treaty of Algeron, problem is that the treaty of Algeron is made null and void by the destruction of Romulus and the reformation of the Romulan Star Empire under Empress Sela, given that Feds have experimented with cloaking tech in the past and taking into account how long they've had to advance their knowledge in that area they'd probably have the ability to create battle cloaks by this point... So you saying "news flash cryptic just give a TRIBBLE about lore/cannon." basically means "Give everyone battle cloaks and have done with it." which, I feel, is neither a good idea, nor what you meant. Basically, I'm trying to say that you contradicted your own argument entirely.
(Of course, I just realised that I also shot myself in the foot; I know more about the politics, legalities and technicalities of a fantasy world than I do about the political fine print of my own country... I'm off to read a book, this issue needs to be addressed... :eek:)
facepalm* but you ignored the dev blog stating that the reformed treaty has been transfer over to the republic as both klink and feds cant get the romulan cloak tech at all. you mean doing it illegally and was given a debatable cloaking tech during the dominion war for one ship at the same time a ship of a different universe with unknown origin of it's inclusion to the ship. they did not research cloaking after the Pegasus cloaking was handed over to the romulans after enterprise did uses it by force to get out of a metor or when the first defiant was distorted. The ship not the class cloaking was weaker than klinks and rommies during the dominion war tot he point of seeing the ship and the engine as well further hinting an old cloaking device.
If they're so great-how come you don't see anyone driving fleet Sabers, or Fleet Advanced?
Answer:"Because the Defiant IS better."
I would venture that it's more so a few other reasons. With the Saber, it's a design that is not at all aesthetically pleasing, most people seem to be eager to never look at it again. The Fleet Advanced is a T4 Shipyard vessel, the Fleet Tactical a T3, as time progresses more MVAE style ships are appearing as people replace their Killer Frisbee once they can. In addition to being a mid-tier ship, there is of course the element of 'Hero Ship', everyone wants to be the Hero and the Star. Same reason people fly Exploration Cruisers and LRSVs, and clamor for a Fleet Connie, it's a ship that got major screen time.
You're not paying for a cloak, you're paying for the ability to cut and turn with a BoP while outgunning and out hulling it.
More great scotts! It seems you've thrown out a statement in factual context while once again, having no truth in it. From a base stat-line comparison, no, the Defiant can not. As you rejected the notion of RCS modules being able to compensate a Raptor, I would say the same is true, here. Also, amusingly, Fleet BoPs have a scant 2% less shield, approximated.
You're not paying for the Cloak, you're paying for the privelage of vaping a Raptor in one go, while out turning and out running it.
This does boil down to cloak, in this notion. 'Vaper' builds hinge on their decloak ambush, which means conversely, and has been witnessed, that Raptors can vape in turn.
In a very real sense, you're making a statement as nonsensical as saying the Matilda II is superior to or equal to a Pershing-because they have the same armor and both have a turreted main gun.
Another analog wielded as an absolute truth when it misconstrues the situation with the implied summary. Real world designs are not game designs, they do not follow a sense of balance for fun and fair play. Let's leave these analogs out of the discussion, they smell too strongly of straw.
The numbers still don't support your argument, Teron, not even internal to Starfleet's offerings, much less in comparison with competing designs from the other faction.
That is simply because you ignore them, and try to manipulate the data to serve your own agenda. But as has been demonstrated, when you try to lie on the internet, it's but a flew clicks away to check facts.
You're still trying to justify getting the lone positive aspect of a Raptor added to a design that is radically superior in every useful way.
Excluding the Fleet T'Varo and the lockboxes, the Fleet Defiant is still the best mix of shield, turn, and firepower in the Fed arsenal, and a strong contender for apex predator in the game...as it sits, RIGHT NOW.
The argument contradictorily changes again. The Defiant is best, even though statements made prior have been rebutted and proven false, again and again. You insisted it needed a penalty to stats, those are in place. Now you're claiming those are penalties for being an escort.
For fun, I've done some walking and talking in-game, building a consensus about this matter.
Raptors are seen as inferior not to the Tact-Escort line, insomuch as they are seen as inferior to BoPs. The number one reason by far for them being less popular that was given was not the turn rate, but the lack of battle cloak. Battle cloak was stated to be most critical in KDF offensive potential. Second was the pivot point, third them being too general purpose and too 'Jack-of-all-Trades' specifically per one. Others cited them as being too science oriented without enough actual sci strength. Lack of tact consoles were only sparsely cited, and neither the turn rate nor inertia came up at all, most amusingly.
Conversely, polling about the Defiant with Fed players in game showed that for the most part, no one felt it is the best escort hands down. It was a fairly varied range of responses, but the most common view is that it is like a poor-man's raptor, ironically. Numerous people felt other Escorts were better, often citing the Fleet Advanced for the same bite with more durability. :rolleyes: Some players outright avoid it due to the lack of +10% shields for positive no gain in their eyes.
facepalm* but you ignored the dev blog stating that the reformed treaty has been transfer over to the republic as both klink and feds cant get the romulan cloak tech at all. you mean doing it illegally and was given a debatable cloaking tech during the dominion war for one ship at the same time a ship of a different universe with unknown origin of it's inclusion to the ship. they did not research cloaking after the Pegasus cloaking was handed over to the romulans after enterprise did uses it by force to get out of a metor or when the first defiant was distorted. The ship not the class cloaking was weaker than klinks and rommies during the dominion war tot he point of seeing the ship and the engine as well further hinting an old cloaking device.
Well, there are two kinds of people.
1) Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data...
Indeed the treaty stands, yet Starfleet has a limited range of cloaking vessels. At the same time they are allies of the Romulan Republic. Hmm, how does it come together?
^^^^^you, sir. sweet mother of god...where do you get off? you just incessantly run your mouth off with your foot stuffing it whole, comparing apples and oranges left and right. the ships aren't GOING to be directly comparable?that's why there's factions, because they aren't supposed to be parallels of each other, they're not analogs. I don't know where to go from here. BranFlakes can you please come shut this idiot down? He's just giving everyone cancer with his fedboy antics. never ever seen such a psychotic fed-fettish on these forums to date. this is a whole new level of stupid.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "The Borg - party-poopers of the galaxy"~ The Doctor
^^^^^you, sir. sweet mother of god...where do you get off? you just incessantly run your mouth off with your foot stuffing it whole, comparing apples and oranges left and right. the ships aren't GOING to be directly comparable?that's why there's factions, because they aren't supposed to be parallels of each other, they're not analogs. I don't know where to go from here. BranFlakes can you please come shut this idiot down? He's just giving everyone cancer with his fedboy antics. never ever seen such a psychotic fed-fettish on these forums to date. this is a whole new level of stupid.
well they are feds, the whining for the 1% of the good gear they dont have defines the faction almost as much as having 99% of the good gear they do have.
well they are feds, the whining for the 1% of the good gear they dont have defines the faction almost as much as having 99% of the good gear they do have.
Yep. Can't argue with stupid.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "The Borg - party-poopers of the galaxy"~ The Doctor
I had a more expansive post, but a moment of rubbish luck wiped it out. Not worth rewriting it to the full extent, so the trimmed down version shall follow.
Do a quick weapons installation count on those, along with counting the bridge officer seating, consoles and placement, and weapons consoles. suppose they might be paying for that?
Battle cloak. As to prior consensus, what primarily makes BoPs so amazing and Raptors not in the end is the ability to battle cloak.
with a good build, I've had Defiants turn with me in PvP-those players knew how to get the performance out of it with the right builds, time their buffs, and all the rest-but even they've admitted they couldn't do it with the slower-turning escorts like the Fleet Patrol or Advanced, and the key is that Inertia number-it allows a pin-pivot turn rate with the right parts (engines and turn consoles, Omega, etc.)
When it was attempted to make the same addition of bonuses to the equation when the Raptor was being assessed, you rejected the notion. Yet here we are now. Anything that can make Fed escorts maneuver better, can do the same for raptors, and BoPs. It's adding variables that muddle calculations.
What beats inertia and turn rates though, is surprise. You don't need to turn if your target never gets a chance to. Thus why we have the inertia 40 Ha'feh destroying pretty much anything short of Aux2Batt tanks left and right.
Inertia's important for turn rate, the Defiant's got an Inertia of 70, which lets it keep up with faster base-rate turners with the correct build,and it's an easy build for anyone who's been at L50 for more than a couple months to do. (see, you need to know how this stuff applies...)
An inertia rating of 70 is upper standard for 'Escort' styled ships, and the Somraw has 70 too. The lower is 60, which is still quite effective, as having flown a patrol escort for a couple months taught. Cute little personal attack you slipped in though.
Check your inertia numbers and say that again. RCS helps-but only if your inertia score doesn't **** it up. It's a synergy, Teron-you need both a high turn rate, and a High Inertia-the FTER has a turn rate and inertia equal to a much smaller ship (Saber), and an impulse mod of .20, the combination of which makes for a ship that handles like a smaller vessel, but punches like a bigger one.
What exactly are you trying to say here; all it seems is you are overselling the Defiant. As above, escort-style craft are between 60-70 inertia, which is not as severe of a disparity as played up to be. The Steamrunner, Patrol, Armitage, all are 60 inertia ships like the Qin. I am mildly amused with the blurb on the Defiant's size, it's the smallest active ship class in Starfleet that isn't classified as a shuttle, so how exactly is one more point of turn and the same inertia as a Advanced Escort , equal to a smaller ship? Another amusing note, all faction escorts, raptors, and raiders, have an impulse mod of .20 bar the Veteran ships, and the Aquarius at .15.
Who were they vaping, and how bad was their build? Raptors are rare outside of new players and dilithium farrming toons. in KDF, most players either gravitate straight to the big ships (Battlecruisers and Carriers) or the BoP-because the Raptors just aren't good in comparison to their Federation counterparts, and aren't as good at hit-and-fade as BoPs, but the BC's can come close in performance to both Escorts and Cruisers-(except for the craptastic Bortasque-basically our version of the Aquarius in terms of bad design decisions made easy.)
It's interesting that your first thought is not 'someone made raptors good', but 'the targets were just bad'. As discerned earlier, raptors have been most cited as not being used due to lack of battle cloak, and too generalized. So yes, you are correct, KDF players want the extremes of specialist ships, either tanks with some damage, or glass-cannons with devastating hit-and-run ability. Nothing to do with Escorts being better. What makes this ironic is we have a case of acknowledging 'innate cloak escorts' are not wanted and are worthless, but then turning around and crying out against Starfleet potentially getting one as it would be too valuable.
The gripe against the Bortasqu' and following false comparison made me laugh. It still has powerful ambush potential, or can be used like a Federation Cruiser quite effectively. It has potential. The Aquarius is a BoP without the cloak or agility; there is no ambush bonus to balance it, nor will there be flanking. It is inferior.
Nothing here really addresses the problem, we have a double-standard in game mechanic balance. The Avenger sees itself outright one-upped with the Mogh. The Galaxy X is an odd beast that needs improvement. Yet in the end, your basis for validating, well, ignoring the discrepancy is the Defiant and your personal vendetta against the ship.
The rest is speculation, projection and personal attacks. You have no more idea of how I spend my in-game time than I do of how you spend yours. Yet you find it fit to formulate an opinion that I must not be a PvPer and present it as fact and launch a discrediting attack against it. All I will respond to in this case, is that I spend the lion's share of my time in STO doing PvP; as Fed, KDF, and Rom due to the fact I find it is far more challenging than PvE.
I won't bother dignifying any more of this post, nor any further personal attacks, with acknowledgement. Make your case against the debate; if you position is sound, you will have no need for smear campaigns.
You keep on whining about a "Double Standard" but when it comes to flat comparisons, you 'won't dignify' statments noting the skill and ability of some fed players-whom are notoriously absent from your side of the debate and have been consistently absent from the group supporting your position.
Prior statements by many of the KDF 'Defenders' here imply 'skilled Fed players' don't exits. :rolleyes: More-so it's of little surprise you would now resort to the 'human element' which through-out the history of gaming has shown to be the eternal wild-card.
But let's do some examining. The Defiant has Cmdr, Lt.C, and (oft redundant) Ens tact seats, and a Lt. engi and sci seat. Most critically, let's focus on the last two; the science stations are almost universally going to be used for HE1 and TSS2 for hull-healing and shield hardening. Engineering is going to likely be utilized in either/or combinations of EPtS for more shield hardening, EPtE for extra go-go, Aux2Damp for resists, and/or RSP as an 'ohshi' button; lets say EPtS1 and RSP1 for the most shield longevity.
A Bird-of-Prey has a pure universal seating set. As you made mention, seating is powerful; and as such, BoPs can create the closest anyone could hope to get to a perfect BOff build to their playstyle before you factor in their innate class advantages.
The Tact-Escort is not using the cloak console. It makes an approach on a non-cloaking target, which sees it coming and can pop buffs to prepare for combat. The Defiant is committed until either one dies or can manage to disengage.
With cloak console, it drops in on the target. In the nature of such attacks, either they die or live; lets say the target has RSP too, uses it to blunt the Alpha as there is no DEM2+ to force bleed through. The Defiant is still committed, it can not simply recloak to try again in a few seconds. Combat ends up following the path above, albeit the Tact-Escort now has a 'dead' console.
Tact-Escort with innate cloaking, ambushing. Same as above, target RSPs to soak most of the damage. And same as before, the Defiant is now committed to combat, the only change is it does not have the wasted console slot. Overall, the only change is that the vessel is now par to any other basic cloaking vessel.
When dealing with battle cloaking vessels, it will be trumped in all cases, as it should be. If they ambush the Defiant and fail, they can escape into cloak once again. If it tries to ambush them and fail, again, they can escape into cloaking when it can not. And remember the build, there is no CPB or similar trick to just yank them back out, unless the Tact-Escort Captain sacrifices what limited survivability he has. Which if he did, just makes him that much more susceptible to the alpha strikes of others.
Birds-of-Prey,Warbirds, and Non-Fed Veteran Destroyers conversely, have what the Defiant does not; battle cloak. They do not have to fully commit to a fight; if they fail their kill, all they need is to disengage immediately, or otherwise break off once they can recloak. Neither can the Tactical Escort easily RSP-evade or placate a target that is ambushing it and slip back into cloak short of luck. The nature of the cloak being innate instead of console will not change this either.
This is also the same reason I do concur and am vehemently opposed to battle cloaking for these three lines of vessels. That would be a imbalance. Thus the motion for innate basic cloaking; due to the matter that as it stance, the console is underwhelming and the return is often not worth the cost. Rather than see it boosted to a battle-cloak or something similar, it would be least-destabilizing to just restore the ability to an innate function.
This would end the Mogh/Avenger conflict, it would make the Gal-X more appealing, and it would make the Defiant only marginally better than where it sits now, which is not at the top and nor would it be after. It would still have the softer hull, and be lacking the shield mod at fleet level. It would still have only the basic survivability entailed by its bridge officer layout and much loathed 3rd tact ensign slot. A decloaked Tactical Escort would be no different that it is today, other than lacking the loss of the console slot.
Also, a brief thought that occurred quite late in regards to 'Fed cloaking fails'. The USS Defiant's cloak not working when needed under fire, them dropping out of it at bad times and similar issues? Reflected in basic cloak when used in the nature of the game. Can't be used in combat, or get too close to a random AoE and your cloak is gone.
The reason I and most KDF discount Raptors, is that we don't have a need for an "Escort type"-the range is covered by ships in other classes.
You don't need an Escort, so you don't need Raptors. You don't want them. But the entire basis of your and others initial argument against innate cloaking, was that the Defiant would become the best Raptor in the game with it. The best of a class you don't value at all due to having better options.
Federation, well...does-and among the Escort types, the Fleet Defiant is among the best, if not the best, of the collection of Fed exclusive designs in the Escort class.
which is, I think, where you're really not getting the idea of 'balance'.
It's a good design, far from the best, innate basic cloaking would not make it the best overnight either. Anyone whose used it knows it isn't an I-WIN button, that is reserved for Rom Battle Cloaking. Furthermore at the same time, in the other faction, in universal ships, the ability is innate, and we have statement which supports the fact that said form cloak isn't worth penalizing a ship for.
Yet Fed ships rely on a console to enable it, and the Fleet Defiant did not receive the universal +10% shield mod. But hey, it's all fine, because it means Fed players suffer for once.
If we were talking about giving the Aquarius, for instance, the Flanking buff, I'd be on for that-it's a ship on the fed side without a role, and that would give it one.
That could help this little ship, though it would call for a range of field testing to confirm.
But the Defiant already has a role and it does it better than comparable ships in the same or similar classes.
It's a high-speed, high-manuever damage dealer that has decent survivability-and that role it does better than ships with higher shield and hull numbers (because of the speed and turn rate), and better than ships with higher speed and turn rate thanks to it's higher firepower and equivalent hull and shields.
This is the Starfleet Escort line in a nut-shell, not simply the Tact-Escort. Primarily turn-Rates of 16 and 17, stronger hull and shields than a BoP, good offense firepower, all impulse .20; Aquarius excluded. The description above tries to single out and elevate the Defiant on a pedestal when can apply to numerous ships in the tier.
IOW it can outrun anything it can't out-gun, and out-gun anything it can't out-run. And that's without the optional cloak-the only ship that pushes ahead of it in filling that role, is a lockbox/special offer/Cryptic needs yo' money JHAS.
Any ship, build right and flown right, can do such as intoned by the first line. Impulse capacitance cell? Which I've seen used heavy by KDF since they got it. The BoPs and warbirds excel at this far and above the Defiant and other Escorts one again due to battle cloaking. The ability to disengage at your leisure to restack the fight in your favor is unparalleled.
but then, against a JHAS, you can install a cloak, sacrifice a redundant engie console, and do THAT job (Decloak Ambush) better than a Raptor with more console slots and an integrated cloak.
Speculative, if you have a redundant engi console to sacrifice. Lets face it, no one last 'wasted console space' in a good build. Further more, when the decloak fails due to player reaction, there is now a dead console slot. It is the only console to provide a 'combat' ability that can not actually be used in combat.
As for the craptastic Bortas-it suffers from being neither fish, nor fowl, nor good red meat in terms of KDF design-it's a ship that can mount DHC, but can't get on target, it's a ship that can cloak-but the cloak's the most easily busted cloak in the game, it only works effectively if you use federation slow/beam cruiser builds, but it's not a proper Cruiser so you lose the fourth Cruiser Aura. Like all ships, it takes crew damage proportionally, but recovers along a fixed number, and like all ships, the repair rate and subsystem repair rate is governed by crew numbers, so it recovers more slowly than a Galaxy-R, Galaxy-X, Odyssey, etc-which translates into taking less time to die under fire, while being unable to ESCAPE fire or ENDURE it.
so it's a huge lump of unsurvivable with questionable design all around-even the Tac version with those five nifty consoles lacks the ability to apply firepower or survive being targeted.
Speak of player skill as the end-all-be-all answer, then post a statement with no accounting for it? Just because you fail to make use of it, does not mean it is garbage. I have seen people make this ship work, as both ambusher and beamboat zombie. A well-built Bortasqu' is a fearsome thing to confront, as it can be just as tough as a Fed-tank by using the Aux2Bad build. Amusing the quip about the 4th Aura, which as no benefit what so ever in PvP; yet another bit of info thrown out without proper context.
If I wasn't on a personal stay of giving Cryptic money due to their poor choices, I probably would pick up the pack myself to have fun with this grossly underestimated ship.
As for the Avenger/Mogh issue...
The Avenger was the Tor'kaht+1 Product Improved. Cryptic screwed up, they gave the Federation, for their very, very, first Battlecruiser a ship that was better than every KDF Battlecruiser in existence including the Fleet versions, then realized after-the-fact that they couldn't do a KDF ship that was any good by cutting into the stats-basically you got the apex in your first try with no development or effort, and we got to wait three months for a clone because the cupboard was, by that point, empty.
IOW they gave you guys a fantastic ship, with great stats, and you're ******** because it didn't get a cloak when they already broke their OWN rules (well, bent them-hard) to allow you to mount the console.
This basically boils down to 'Two wrongs make a right'. Which amusingly one could reduce the cloak console debate to. Yes it was not in the best taste to give Starfleet the Avenger first without the Mogh along-side it, even more-so considering the stated they were working on said KDF battlecruiser first. However, the fact that the Mogh came out later as a +1 intones either one of two things; Cryptic knee-jerked over the torrent of KDF crying and copulated with overcompensation in an ironic twist, or they intended this from the start to make maximum profit once they realized the disparity.
The Avenger is good; but that does not validate a case of one being worth more. If the reverse was true, there would be equal outcry.
This is a game, the guys who make the game, made the rules, they made an exception for your lot when they let the Avenger mount a console after stating that there would be no more Federation Cloakers.
Quote this statement please, I can find no record of it after a degree of searching and would like to have it for future reference.
summed up, you have two fantastic ships-great ships, awesome ships. They have the option of mounting an aftermarket device that allows them to do something the rest of the Federation inventory can't do...
and you have the nerve to ***** that it's a double-standard because they didn't make those ships even MORE awesome.
Put simply, there are KDF players who'd probably buy Raptors-if they had the balance of movement, firepower, and durability that the Fleet Defiant has...but they don't, and to be honest, they shouldn't-because that would be taking from one faction, to give to another something unearned.
You know, like giving the Federation Carriers, or Battlecruisers...or Raiders. Oh...oops, two of three of those have already happened.
um...Plasmonic leech? Oh, right, last lockbox.
Aceton Assiimilators? probably in the next one.
Um.. Bioneural warheads? supposed to be too inhumane for Starfle-Oh, right, a couple boxes ago..
Subspace Jump? Oh, right, a couple boxes before THAT...
Battlecloak? Oh...yeah, standard on Federation Romulans...along with a gizmo that gives that, plus subspace jump's ability, plus a potent grav-well all at the same time...
I guess it's like Pokemon-you have to collect it all.
This last quoted segment has an undertone that you seem to be heavily invested in this emotionally. When the filters have to kick in, you may need to step back and compose yourself, it's just a game. It also begins to delve off-topic with all the complaints of content trades, but I'll bite.
They are good ships, but they are not the best ships, and are not end-all-be-all; and innate cloaking will not make them it either. It would simply remove the double-standard that dents their otherwise good record. Raptors are good ships, but not the end-all-be-all either and in a position of being overlapped on both sides. Amusing you even admit they would have to be a direct upgrade on the existing Defiant to have it be of interest after all.
'Unearned' in an curious term to use. What is it that you or other KDF have done to make you more deserving of anything listed than another player. Money is money, play time is play time; why are you more entitled to something, than someone else? Let's glance over the list.
Carriers and Battle Cruisers: KDF has also received Science-formatted vessels before Starfleet was given its Carriers, and the Bortas has been shown to be comparable to line cruisers, which KDF could still receive properly in the form of Gorn or Orion hulls.
Lock-Box excluded, there is still sole deployment of Flight-Deck Cruisers, which honestly would have made more sense than full Carriers for Starfleet. The fact that Starfleet utilized fighter wings in the Dominion War, those small craft needed a supporting mother vessel; of which there were none but cruisers as we class them in-game.
Graviton Pulse Generator/Impulse Capacitance Cell: The first trade which gave KDF the superior console as I denoted above with its frequency of use; and humorously omitted from your list.
Venta Theta Radiation/Photonic Displacer: The second trade, this one was more even but in the end KDF got the tactically more useful and more used console, once again.
Subspace Jumper/Disruptor Point Defense System: A fairly balanced trade for number three. The Jumper can keep you on target, and the PDS is amazing for clearing fighter and destructible torp spam.
Isometric Charge/Antimatter Spread: Another fairly even trade, both anti-cluster tactic consoles. AMS has become a favorite of some Vaper BoP Captains I know.
Bio-Neural Warhead/Nadeon Detonator: Projectile based trade, a weapon for a enhancing console. Tricolbalt was severely nerfed a short while after this, though the BNW was later fixed; however it still doesn't have the bite nor invoke the dread as it once had.
Plasmonic Leech/Ionized Gas Sensor: This trade is coloured unfairly by the fact that the Plasmonic Leech is inherently different compared to most all other universals. Passive bonus adding energy drain to every attack you make, it can borderline overpowered. However the IGS is far from rubbish, it gave KDF an anti-cloak tool for use against Romulans or cloaked Feds, something they lack in special consoles.
The 'priceless' Aceton Assimilator will likely remain in KDF hands, as the lock-boxes now included brand new consoles and aren't consisting of trades any longers.
Federation allied Romulans are not battle cloaking Starfleet Captains, they are Romulans. :rolleyes: Pretty much everything the blue-tinted space elves can do, the red-hued ones can do too. They are an entity balanced to themselves alone.
It's now time for another leave of the forums for myself, as I've a trip to Northern California for a week. I'll see you all around later, I wish you well in the mean time.
1) i propose this thread be renamed 'teron and patrick debates'
2)I wont go into detail as i havent compared them in a while, but what i do remember: patrol escort vastly superior to my raptor. heghta barely beating solely for the hazard emitters being used while under cloak. not in cloak, the patrol escort and MVAE beat it in performance
3) everyone seems to have ignored the phase shift generator console on the Kar'fi (a ship that while neither an escort, nor a ideal choice for kdf tacs, still can use cannons/turrets extremely effectively), which is good. But i digress. Think of it like this, feddies: if you get integrated cloak, the kar'fi deserves the same treatment with it's phase shifting. Or is that still too unfair?
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Comments
Facerolled my keyboard then shouted at my screen. "NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO"
Then I went to kerrat, killed some feds to make myself feel better after witnessing another "Fed cloaking device" thread on the forums.
/thread.
That kinda' happened the moment you decided to join this thread. :rolleyes:
That happen when thread was made.
The desire sprung when your senselessness arrived on the scene. Personal attacks? I'll personally attack you right now. You're attack the whole KDF. What YOU don't seem to get, that nobody here is going to be able to get through your thick skull is that the mogh is not at all an avenger +1. The cloak is insignificant. Not a "+1" as you say. And the Feds simply aren't supposed to have cloak. Just because you whine and ***** here on the forums about how you're being mistreated and deserve a cloak isn't going to get you one you self-entitled p***k. I can hardly BELIEVE that you fed fools prefer to spend your time arguing over how the Mogh is supposedly more powerful or more for your money than the outrageously power-creep SCIMITAR. Cryptic launches than thing and you Feds don't give a TRIBBLE. Why? Cause it's not Klingon. This is obviously, and has been for a long time, typical fed "hate" against the kdf players of this game. If the Mogh is really that much to you, go play kdf. You toolbags can't keep acting like the grass is greener (on the kdf side) then expect to get the greener grass hand delivered to your side's front door. That's not how ANYTHING works. So stop being a greedy discontented bigot and get the hell out of this forum.
"The Borg - party-poopers of the galaxy" ~ The Doctor
Then you are blind.
R.I.P
... Ok, I wasn't going to get involved in this whole debate but you just kind of shot yourself in the foot there: as far as the lore is concerned the Federation is forbidden to develope cloaking technology by the treaty of Algeron, problem is that the treaty of Algeron is made null and void by the destruction of Romulus and the reformation of the Romulan Star Empire under Empress Sela, given that Feds have experimented with cloaking tech in the past and taking into account how long they've had to advance their knowledge in that area they'd probably have the ability to create battle cloaks by this point... So you saying "news flash cryptic just give a TRIBBLE about lore/cannon." basically means "Give everyone battle cloaks and have done with it." which, I feel, is neither a good idea, nor what you meant. Basically, I'm trying to say that you contradicted your own argument entirely.
(Of course, I just realised that I also shot myself in the foot; I know more about the politics, legalities and technicalities of a fantasy world than I do about the political fine print of my own country... I'm off to read a book, this issue needs to be addressed... :eek:)
I'm not THAT difficult to please, I just have a very low tolerance threshold for stupid BS! - George Carlin.
These threads need a 1+ or karma system because you would have gotten a thumbs up from me
Wrong again. You've cited the Escort Retrofit, the Tier 5, not the Fleet Tier 5.5 variant. Once again either intentionally falsifying the data to twist to your agenda, or you're just completely incompetent with research and double-checking facts.
The Real Fleet Escort Retrofit
Shield mod .99, Turn Rate 17, no inertia rating listed, Hull 30,360
Huh, look at that. It has the same shield mod as the other Escorts. Ain't that a kick in the head? Lower hull strength, but hasn't the Defiant been touted as being tougher for years due to better shields?
And I didn't forget about this poor little guy.
This vessel is classed in the shipyard as a destroyer, and is universally recognized as an inferior BoP analog without a cloak, and soon to be without flanking as well. It's in dire need of some improvements to make it worth the cost, but that's another thread.
Moving on class.
Well, you even pointed it out. These aren't proper counterparts to a Fleet Defiant but other Escorts; which goes along with the other half of the discussion, the compromising element that you blow off. Raptors need work and expansion, and inclusion of a proper Tactical equivalent at Fleet grade.
Time for some Math-hammer against the comparable Fleet-grade ships you presented. The difference in shield strength overall is about 7% (wasn't the Fleet Defiant 10%? Oh, nevermind that, right?). The difference in hull strengths is about 6% for the Qin, and 1.5% for the Somraw. Ouch, yes, seems the Somraw takes a hit here, but let's compare. The Qin in the end, is down a miniscule 1% for shield to hull trade off compared to the Patrol; the Somraw down 5.5% to the Advanced, approximate for both.
But let's look at the Fleet Tact Escort too.
The Qin as anyone can easily see has about 2% better shielding, and about 9% stronger hull.
The Somraw has the same shield advantage, and even it has roughly 5% more hull.
Great scott! These ships have better shields and hull than the vaunted 'FTER', eleven and seven percent advantages respectively. Wait, the Defiant isn't better in every way? Inconceivable! Well, it's got inertia and turn rate, right? Wait, Somraw has 70 inertia too, well damn.
When you get the numbers strait, they do alot more than they support yours it would seem. Some of the very things you argued, already exist in game despite our collective overlooking. The Fleet Tact-Escort has worse shields and hull than the raptors, which I recall you citing something about it specifically would need a stat penalty for this debate to have any credit. There are penalties already in place.
In the end, an innate basic cloaking won't tip the scales, it will balance them. Same as it would for the Mogh and Avenger comparison, and it would at least make the Gal-X a tad more appealing though still quite gimmicky.
facepalm* but you ignored the dev blog stating that the reformed treaty has been transfer over to the republic as both klink and feds cant get the romulan cloak tech at all. you mean doing it illegally and was given a debatable cloaking tech during the dominion war for one ship at the same time a ship of a different universe with unknown origin of it's inclusion to the ship. they did not research cloaking after the Pegasus cloaking was handed over to the romulans after enterprise did uses it by force to get out of a metor or when the first defiant was distorted. The ship not the class cloaking was weaker than klinks and rommies during the dominion war tot he point of seeing the ship and the engine as well further hinting an old cloaking device.
I would venture that it's more so a few other reasons. With the Saber, it's a design that is not at all aesthetically pleasing, most people seem to be eager to never look at it again. The Fleet Advanced is a T4 Shipyard vessel, the Fleet Tactical a T3, as time progresses more MVAE style ships are appearing as people replace their Killer Frisbee once they can. In addition to being a mid-tier ship, there is of course the element of 'Hero Ship', everyone wants to be the Hero and the Star. Same reason people fly Exploration Cruisers and LRSVs, and clamor for a Fleet Connie, it's a ship that got major screen time.
Let's do some research to verify this, once more.
Defiant turn rate: 17
Norgh turn rate: 22
B'rel turn rate: 23
HoH'SuS turn rate: 21
More great scotts! It seems you've thrown out a statement in factual context while once again, having no truth in it. From a base stat-line comparison, no, the Defiant can not. As you rejected the notion of RCS modules being able to compensate a Raptor, I would say the same is true, here. Also, amusingly, Fleet BoPs have a scant 2% less shield, approximated.
This does boil down to cloak, in this notion. 'Vaper' builds hinge on their decloak ambush, which means conversely, and has been witnessed, that Raptors can vape in turn.
Another analog wielded as an absolute truth when it misconstrues the situation with the implied summary. Real world designs are not game designs, they do not follow a sense of balance for fun and fair play. Let's leave these analogs out of the discussion, they smell too strongly of straw.
That is simply because you ignore them, and try to manipulate the data to serve your own agenda. But as has been demonstrated, when you try to lie on the internet, it's but a flew clicks away to check facts.
The argument contradictorily changes again. The Defiant is best, even though statements made prior have been rebutted and proven false, again and again. You insisted it needed a penalty to stats, those are in place. Now you're claiming those are penalties for being an escort.
For fun, I've done some walking and talking in-game, building a consensus about this matter.
Raptors are seen as inferior not to the Tact-Escort line, insomuch as they are seen as inferior to BoPs. The number one reason by far for them being less popular that was given was not the turn rate, but the lack of battle cloak. Battle cloak was stated to be most critical in KDF offensive potential. Second was the pivot point, third them being too general purpose and too 'Jack-of-all-Trades' specifically per one. Others cited them as being too science oriented without enough actual sci strength. Lack of tact consoles were only sparsely cited, and neither the turn rate nor inertia came up at all, most amusingly.
Conversely, polling about the Defiant with Fed players in game showed that for the most part, no one felt it is the best escort hands down. It was a fairly varied range of responses, but the most common view is that it is like a poor-man's raptor, ironically. Numerous people felt other Escorts were better, often citing the Fleet Advanced for the same bite with more durability. :rolleyes: Some players outright avoid it due to the lack of +10% shields for positive no gain in their eyes.
Well, there are two kinds of people.
1) Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data...
Indeed the treaty stands, yet Starfleet has a limited range of cloaking vessels. At the same time they are allies of the Romulan Republic. Hmm, how does it come together?
"The Borg - party-poopers of the galaxy" ~ The Doctor
well they are feds, the whining for the 1% of the good gear they dont have defines the faction almost as much as having 99% of the good gear they do have.
Yep. Can't argue with stupid.
"The Borg - party-poopers of the galaxy" ~ The Doctor
Battle cloak. As to prior consensus, what primarily makes BoPs so amazing and Raptors not in the end is the ability to battle cloak.
When it was attempted to make the same addition of bonuses to the equation when the Raptor was being assessed, you rejected the notion. Yet here we are now. Anything that can make Fed escorts maneuver better, can do the same for raptors, and BoPs. It's adding variables that muddle calculations.
What beats inertia and turn rates though, is surprise. You don't need to turn if your target never gets a chance to. Thus why we have the inertia 40 Ha'feh destroying pretty much anything short of Aux2Batt tanks left and right.
An inertia rating of 70 is upper standard for 'Escort' styled ships, and the Somraw has 70 too. The lower is 60, which is still quite effective, as having flown a patrol escort for a couple months taught. Cute little personal attack you slipped in though.
What exactly are you trying to say here; all it seems is you are overselling the Defiant. As above, escort-style craft are between 60-70 inertia, which is not as severe of a disparity as played up to be. The Steamrunner, Patrol, Armitage, all are 60 inertia ships like the Qin. I am mildly amused with the blurb on the Defiant's size, it's the smallest active ship class in Starfleet that isn't classified as a shuttle, so how exactly is one more point of turn and the same inertia as a Advanced Escort , equal to a smaller ship? Another amusing note, all faction escorts, raptors, and raiders, have an impulse mod of .20 bar the Veteran ships, and the Aquarius at .15.
It's interesting that your first thought is not 'someone made raptors good', but 'the targets were just bad'. As discerned earlier, raptors have been most cited as not being used due to lack of battle cloak, and too generalized. So yes, you are correct, KDF players want the extremes of specialist ships, either tanks with some damage, or glass-cannons with devastating hit-and-run ability. Nothing to do with Escorts being better. What makes this ironic is we have a case of acknowledging 'innate cloak escorts' are not wanted and are worthless, but then turning around and crying out against Starfleet potentially getting one as it would be too valuable.
The gripe against the Bortasqu' and following false comparison made me laugh. It still has powerful ambush potential, or can be used like a Federation Cruiser quite effectively. It has potential. The Aquarius is a BoP without the cloak or agility; there is no ambush bonus to balance it, nor will there be flanking. It is inferior.
Nothing here really addresses the problem, we have a double-standard in game mechanic balance. The Avenger sees itself outright one-upped with the Mogh. The Galaxy X is an odd beast that needs improvement. Yet in the end, your basis for validating, well, ignoring the discrepancy is the Defiant and your personal vendetta against the ship.
The rest is speculation, projection and personal attacks. You have no more idea of how I spend my in-game time than I do of how you spend yours. Yet you find it fit to formulate an opinion that I must not be a PvPer and present it as fact and launch a discrediting attack against it. All I will respond to in this case, is that I spend the lion's share of my time in STO doing PvP; as Fed, KDF, and Rom due to the fact I find it is far more challenging than PvE.
I won't bother dignifying any more of this post, nor any further personal attacks, with acknowledgement. Make your case against the debate; if you position is sound, you will have no need for smear campaigns.
Prior statements by many of the KDF 'Defenders' here imply 'skilled Fed players' don't exits. :rolleyes: More-so it's of little surprise you would now resort to the 'human element' which through-out the history of gaming has shown to be the eternal wild-card.
But let's do some examining. The Defiant has Cmdr, Lt.C, and (oft redundant) Ens tact seats, and a Lt. engi and sci seat. Most critically, let's focus on the last two; the science stations are almost universally going to be used for HE1 and TSS2 for hull-healing and shield hardening. Engineering is going to likely be utilized in either/or combinations of EPtS for more shield hardening, EPtE for extra go-go, Aux2Damp for resists, and/or RSP as an 'ohshi' button; lets say EPtS1 and RSP1 for the most shield longevity.
A Bird-of-Prey has a pure universal seating set. As you made mention, seating is powerful; and as such, BoPs can create the closest anyone could hope to get to a perfect BOff build to their playstyle before you factor in their innate class advantages.
The Tact-Escort is not using the cloak console. It makes an approach on a non-cloaking target, which sees it coming and can pop buffs to prepare for combat. The Defiant is committed until either one dies or can manage to disengage.
With cloak console, it drops in on the target. In the nature of such attacks, either they die or live; lets say the target has RSP too, uses it to blunt the Alpha as there is no DEM2+ to force bleed through. The Defiant is still committed, it can not simply recloak to try again in a few seconds. Combat ends up following the path above, albeit the Tact-Escort now has a 'dead' console.
Tact-Escort with innate cloaking, ambushing. Same as above, target RSPs to soak most of the damage. And same as before, the Defiant is now committed to combat, the only change is it does not have the wasted console slot. Overall, the only change is that the vessel is now par to any other basic cloaking vessel.
When dealing with battle cloaking vessels, it will be trumped in all cases, as it should be. If they ambush the Defiant and fail, they can escape into cloak once again. If it tries to ambush them and fail, again, they can escape into cloaking when it can not. And remember the build, there is no CPB or similar trick to just yank them back out, unless the Tact-Escort Captain sacrifices what limited survivability he has. Which if he did, just makes him that much more susceptible to the alpha strikes of others.
Birds-of-Prey,Warbirds, and Non-Fed Veteran Destroyers conversely, have what the Defiant does not; battle cloak. They do not have to fully commit to a fight; if they fail their kill, all they need is to disengage immediately, or otherwise break off once they can recloak. Neither can the Tactical Escort easily RSP-evade or placate a target that is ambushing it and slip back into cloak short of luck. The nature of the cloak being innate instead of console will not change this either.
This is also the same reason I do concur and am vehemently opposed to battle cloaking for these three lines of vessels. That would be a imbalance. Thus the motion for innate basic cloaking; due to the matter that as it stance, the console is underwhelming and the return is often not worth the cost. Rather than see it boosted to a battle-cloak or something similar, it would be least-destabilizing to just restore the ability to an innate function.
This would end the Mogh/Avenger conflict, it would make the Gal-X more appealing, and it would make the Defiant only marginally better than where it sits now, which is not at the top and nor would it be after. It would still have the softer hull, and be lacking the shield mod at fleet level. It would still have only the basic survivability entailed by its bridge officer layout and much loathed 3rd tact ensign slot. A decloaked Tactical Escort would be no different that it is today, other than lacking the loss of the console slot.
Also, a brief thought that occurred quite late in regards to 'Fed cloaking fails'. The USS Defiant's cloak not working when needed under fire, them dropping out of it at bad times and similar issues? Reflected in basic cloak when used in the nature of the game. Can't be used in combat, or get too close to a random AoE and your cloak is gone.
You don't need an Escort, so you don't need Raptors. You don't want them. But the entire basis of your and others initial argument against innate cloaking, was that the Defiant would become the best Raptor in the game with it. The best of a class you don't value at all due to having better options.
It's a good design, far from the best, innate basic cloaking would not make it the best overnight either. Anyone whose used it knows it isn't an I-WIN button, that is reserved for Rom Battle Cloaking. Furthermore at the same time, in the other faction, in universal ships, the ability is innate, and we have statement which supports the fact that said form cloak isn't worth penalizing a ship for.
Yet Fed ships rely on a console to enable it, and the Fleet Defiant did not receive the universal +10% shield mod. But hey, it's all fine, because it means Fed players suffer for once.
That could help this little ship, though it would call for a range of field testing to confirm.
This is the Starfleet Escort line in a nut-shell, not simply the Tact-Escort. Primarily turn-Rates of 16 and 17, stronger hull and shields than a BoP, good offense firepower, all impulse .20; Aquarius excluded. The description above tries to single out and elevate the Defiant on a pedestal when can apply to numerous ships in the tier.
Any ship, build right and flown right, can do such as intoned by the first line. Impulse capacitance cell? Which I've seen used heavy by KDF since they got it. The BoPs and warbirds excel at this far and above the Defiant and other Escorts one again due to battle cloaking. The ability to disengage at your leisure to restack the fight in your favor is unparalleled.
Speculative, if you have a redundant engi console to sacrifice. Lets face it, no one last 'wasted console space' in a good build. Further more, when the decloak fails due to player reaction, there is now a dead console slot. It is the only console to provide a 'combat' ability that can not actually be used in combat.
Speak of player skill as the end-all-be-all answer, then post a statement with no accounting for it? Just because you fail to make use of it, does not mean it is garbage. I have seen people make this ship work, as both ambusher and beamboat zombie. A well-built Bortasqu' is a fearsome thing to confront, as it can be just as tough as a Fed-tank by using the Aux2Bad build. Amusing the quip about the 4th Aura, which as no benefit what so ever in PvP; yet another bit of info thrown out without proper context.
If I wasn't on a personal stay of giving Cryptic money due to their poor choices, I probably would pick up the pack myself to have fun with this grossly underestimated ship.
This basically boils down to 'Two wrongs make a right'. Which amusingly one could reduce the cloak console debate to. Yes it was not in the best taste to give Starfleet the Avenger first without the Mogh along-side it, even more-so considering the stated they were working on said KDF battlecruiser first. However, the fact that the Mogh came out later as a +1 intones either one of two things; Cryptic knee-jerked over the torrent of KDF crying and copulated with overcompensation in an ironic twist, or they intended this from the start to make maximum profit once they realized the disparity.
The Avenger is good; but that does not validate a case of one being worth more. If the reverse was true, there would be equal outcry.
Quote this statement please, I can find no record of it after a degree of searching and would like to have it for future reference.
This last quoted segment has an undertone that you seem to be heavily invested in this emotionally. When the filters have to kick in, you may need to step back and compose yourself, it's just a game. It also begins to delve off-topic with all the complaints of content trades, but I'll bite.
They are good ships, but they are not the best ships, and are not end-all-be-all; and innate cloaking will not make them it either. It would simply remove the double-standard that dents their otherwise good record. Raptors are good ships, but not the end-all-be-all either and in a position of being overlapped on both sides. Amusing you even admit they would have to be a direct upgrade on the existing Defiant to have it be of interest after all.
'Unearned' in an curious term to use. What is it that you or other KDF have done to make you more deserving of anything listed than another player. Money is money, play time is play time; why are you more entitled to something, than someone else? Let's glance over the list.
Carriers and Battle Cruisers: KDF has also received Science-formatted vessels before Starfleet was given its Carriers, and the Bortas has been shown to be comparable to line cruisers, which KDF could still receive properly in the form of Gorn or Orion hulls.
Lock-Box excluded, there is still sole deployment of Flight-Deck Cruisers, which honestly would have made more sense than full Carriers for Starfleet. The fact that Starfleet utilized fighter wings in the Dominion War, those small craft needed a supporting mother vessel; of which there were none but cruisers as we class them in-game.
Graviton Pulse Generator/Impulse Capacitance Cell: The first trade which gave KDF the superior console as I denoted above with its frequency of use; and humorously omitted from your list.
Venta Theta Radiation/Photonic Displacer: The second trade, this one was more even but in the end KDF got the tactically more useful and more used console, once again.
Subspace Jumper/Disruptor Point Defense System: A fairly balanced trade for number three. The Jumper can keep you on target, and the PDS is amazing for clearing fighter and destructible torp spam.
Isometric Charge/Antimatter Spread: Another fairly even trade, both anti-cluster tactic consoles. AMS has become a favorite of some Vaper BoP Captains I know.
Bio-Neural Warhead/Nadeon Detonator: Projectile based trade, a weapon for a enhancing console. Tricolbalt was severely nerfed a short while after this, though the BNW was later fixed; however it still doesn't have the bite nor invoke the dread as it once had.
Plasmonic Leech/Ionized Gas Sensor: This trade is coloured unfairly by the fact that the Plasmonic Leech is inherently different compared to most all other universals. Passive bonus adding energy drain to every attack you make, it can borderline overpowered. However the IGS is far from rubbish, it gave KDF an anti-cloak tool for use against Romulans or cloaked Feds, something they lack in special consoles.
The 'priceless' Aceton Assimilator will likely remain in KDF hands, as the lock-boxes now included brand new consoles and aren't consisting of trades any longers.
Federation allied Romulans are not battle cloaking Starfleet Captains, they are Romulans. :rolleyes: Pretty much everything the blue-tinted space elves can do, the red-hued ones can do too. They are an entity balanced to themselves alone.
It's now time for another leave of the forums for myself, as I've a trip to Northern California for a week. I'll see you all around later, I wish you well in the mean time.
2)I wont go into detail as i havent compared them in a while, but what i do remember: patrol escort vastly superior to my raptor. heghta barely beating solely for the hazard emitters being used while under cloak. not in cloak, the patrol escort and MVAE beat it in performance
3) everyone seems to have ignored the phase shift generator console on the Kar'fi (a ship that while neither an escort, nor a ideal choice for kdf tacs, still can use cannons/turrets extremely effectively), which is good. But i digress. Think of it like this, feddies: if you get integrated cloak, the kar'fi deserves the same treatment with it's phase shifting. Or is that still too unfair?
At the end of the day, the last thing this game needs is more battle cloak. Its bad enough.
kbye
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
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