I would think it is safe to say that the Path to 2409 information is now out of date. With the relationship with the new Romulan Republic, and being a massive source of assistance in numerous ways, and the fact that the Avenger was designed to be cloak capable; we can deduce that the Federation likely has a new amendment or expansion of the initial Defiant amendment to the Treaty that it worked out with the Republic. Starfleet provides security aid to the Republic, and they have the lend-lease program for Romulan Captains to use Starfleet Vessels; in return we can surmise Starfleet has been approved to mount cloaking devices on the vessels capable of it in game for dealing with the numerous hostile fronts that exist on the galactic map.
Until there is some acknowledgement in the game that the Treaty of Algeron is now voided or some other reason that Feds can now develop cloaks, then that Treaty is still in effect.
Although, I would assume that the Romulan Republic would not allow the Federation to research any cloaking technologies. The Feds developed a working phase cloak when they had very limited resources to research cloaking technologies. Just imagine what they could develop if they are allowed to fully research cloaking technologies. Perhaps Phase Cloaks that are able to fire while cloaked.
Until there is some acknowledgement in the game that the Treaty of Algeron is now voided or some other reason that Feds can now develop cloaks, then that Treaty is still in effect.
Although, I would assume that the Romulan Republic would not allow the Federation to research any cloaking technologies. The Feds developed a working phase cloak when they had very limited resources to research cloaking technologies. Just imagine what they could develop if they are allowed to fully research cloaking technologies. Perhaps Phase Cloaks that are able to fire while cloaked.
The Path to 2409 was written 4 years ago. We have 4 years of in-game events that haven't been accounted for. It is very much out of date from the events you play through. :rolleyes:
As you seem to have, like many, quoted without reading when you quoted, I'll be more specific. There was an amendment to the Treat of Algernon that granted the original Defiant use of a Romulan cloaking device. It is thus likely that in return for all the aide from the Federation, that amendment was expanded and revised to permit a limited range of Tactical Starfleet vessels to mount Romulan units, such as the Avenger. Not once did I imply an open 'do what you want with cloaking' approach that you implied and went off on.
Ultimately this isn't even about the dated lore we have, but about game balance. These ships can cloak, it is in the game, lore approving or not. We are discussing the glaring differences between the Fed's requirements of a slotted console versus the other two factions.
I swear, if some of you didn't have the lore to strawman with, you would have no argument at all. :P
The Path to 2409 was written 4 years ago. We have 4 years of in-game events that haven't been accounted for. It is very much out of date from the events you play through. :rolleyes:
Even though the Path to 2409 was written 4 years ago in real life, the game has been confirmed by devs to still be in the year 2409 (which I still find a bit ridiculous, but oh well). So in universe/game thinking, the Path isn't anymore outdated as it was at launch. Just sayin' :P
The Path to 2409 was written 4 years ago. We have 4 years of in-game events that haven't been accounted for. It is very much out of date from the events you play through. :rolleyes:
As you seem to have, like many, quoted without reading when you quoted, I'll be more specific. There was an amendment to the Treat of Algernon that granted the original Defiant use of a Romulan cloaking device. It is thus likely that in return for all the aide from the Federation, that amendment was expanded and revised to permit a limited range of Tactical Starfleet vessels to mount Romulan units, such as the Avenger. Not once did I imply an open 'do what you want with cloaking' approach that you implied and went off on.
Ultimately this isn't even about the dated lore we have, but about game balance. These ships can cloak, it is in the game, lore approving or not. We are discussing the glaring differences between the Fed's requirements of a slotted console versus the other two factions.
I swear, if some of you didn't have the lore to strawman with, you would have no argument at all. :P
It is merely speculation that the amendment was expanded. There are only three facts as far as cloaking and the Federation is concerned.
1. The Federation signed a treaty that prevented them from developing cloaking technologies.
2. One Starfleet ship was given special consideration to use a cloaking device in certain circumstances.
3. The treaty was renewed after the destruction of Romulus.
Unless the devs make some claim ingame that the Treaty is no longer in effect, then the Treaty in its original form is still in effect.
One ship somehow made its way from an alternate timeline to STO. The other is the Defiant and having a Defiant without a cloaking device is not a Defiant. Either way, cloaking devices should be kept to an absolute minimum for Starfleet ships.
Can someone good with numbers do this for me. Pick 3 KDF and Romulan ships that roughly match up to the 3 Fed ships that cloak. I would like to see what does the other two factions "pay" to have cloak.
For simplicity's sake, I'll be restricting this to KDF vs Federation. Romulan ships are accessible by both sides for all intents and purposes.
In short: The Fleet Qin has a slight edge in shield power and hull, but only has 4 tac consoles, 10 less inertia, and still has a borked turn axis that makes the ship much less competitive in PvP. Fortunately, KDF has the Somraw which is a better ship that's also more balanced. It's not a counterpart to the Defiant, which is why I didn't link it.
The Avenger mostly outperforms the nearest KDF counterpart, the Tor'kaht. The biggest 'advantages' are the high inertia and a boffstation setup more suited to A2B builds, along with the 5 fore weapon slots. This is why we smelly Klingon players have been complaining about the Avenger, it simply takes more away from the KDF. Even if we got a clone of the Avenger with a KDF skin, it wouldn't make any difference. The Federation now has easy access to a battlecruiser that is a match for, or better than, what the KDF has.
It's difficult comparing the Dreadnought to anything in the KDF arsenal or the Romulan arsenal, as it's a somewhat unique ship. Closest thing I could find in the KDF arsenal is the free Negh'var, which is superior to the Dreadnought in a number of ways. This, however, is indicative of the time when the KDF was SUPPOSED to have a strong advantage in cruisers/battlecruisers. It was the bread and butter of the KDF, alongside the BoPs and carriers. The Federation has its more varied (and now arguably superior) escort line, strong science ship line, and sturdy cruisers. This has been hopelessly muddled over the last 18-24 months. Back when the Dreadnought was released, Cryptic actually cared about balance between the factions, and avoided blatantly dumping all over what was supposed to be the KDF's bread and butter (carriers and battlecruisers).
Traditionally, KDF ships have sacrificed shield modifier, turnrate, or hull in order to 'compensate' for the cloak advantage. The exception to this has been the battlecruiser line, which has always been KDF's best ship line.
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Disparaging remarks about other forum users are not tolerated. Otherwise, feel free to debate this as long as you like.
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http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=13711451&postcount=98
Really?.... You just now come in and drop the mod hammer on this guy, yet I have seen others make "Disparaging remarks about other forum users" and a whole nation at one point. But yet, you feel he deserves to be silenced, what gives? I mean I've been watching quietly for awhile, and here are just a few examples;
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=13580191&postcount=76
You just insulted my country, which in turn insults me. shall I point out, that there are episodes of star trek where the federation, does not take the moral high ground, multiple times in TNG, like when SF forced the Indians off their planet to give it to the Cardassians. DS9, when SF Medical infects Odo (with out his knowledge) to kill all the changelings, just a few I can think of. Make sure you have some facts first.
So, with the KDF new battle cruiser on the horizon with identical stats to the Avenger, except more crew and innate cloaking, that means the 'KDF ships sacrifice for their ability to cloak' excuse is now invalid. How about making the Fed ships' cloaking innate as well, now?
So, with the KDF new battle cruiser on the horizon with identical stats to the Avenger, except more crew and innate cloaking, that means the 'KDF ships sacrifice for their ability to cloak' excuse is now invalid. How about making the Fed ships' cloaking innate as well, now?
It might be coming out, true, but it was also accidentally leaked, as in, we were not supposed to see it yet. If you look at it, aside from the crew and innate cloak, the stats ARE equal to the Avenger, which tells me that the devs took the Avenger (fleet version in this case) and gave it's stats to that ship.
Most likely this is done for testing purposes, until they finalize the actual stats. Trying to justify an inbuilt Fed cloak over an accidental leak and no guarantee those are the final stats just seems silly to me.
Besides, not really supposed to talk about something that has been leaked like this, so both our posts will probably be edited anyways. So it's a bit of a moot point.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
So, with the KDF new battle cruiser on the horizon with identical stats to the Avenger, except more crew and innate cloaking, that means the 'KDF ships sacrifice for their ability to cloak' excuse is now invalid. How about making the Fed ships' cloaking innate as well, now?
Why should we? No federation ship has drawbacks for cloaks since your cloak capable vesels have been given additional slots to fit the console (after much complaints by feds it was only fair and needed to maintain balance). No fed shipnhas lost hull, shield modifiers or anything to use a cloak.
Why should a single modern KDF vessel design have to suffer for having a technology we have been using for hundreds of years?
The Federation does not need a cloak, now what the Federation could explore is a way of improving their sensors to penetrate romulan and klingon cloaks.
Besides the cloak on the Defiant was lost at the 2nd battle of Chin'Toka with the Defiant.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Besides, not really supposed to talk about something that has been leaked like this, so both our posts will probably be edited anyways. So it's a bit of a moot point.
At the time of posting, anyone on a Klink toon could see the ship; censorship is rather moot with the hundreds of pics likely stored on all the HDDs of fans. The description of the ship even implied in fluff it was an 'oh TRIBBLE we need this too' tech theft for identical stats and performance to the Avenger. They may change it, but my money is on the fact we saw it as intended.
No argument makes sense except game balance. And that is an argument I readily admit I have not enough knowledge to claim that the Federation needs battle cloaks.
I think you've hit the nail on the head here.
Any amount of story parsing is one thing, but game balance has to rule.
Feds get lots of decent science ships, thus encouraging fed sci captains with all their lovely anti-cloak possibilities.
Klingons get lots of cloaks, but few science ships. Encouraging tacs and hit/run specialists
Romulans get awesome cloaks, but much less power to allocate to subsystems.
Why should we? No federation ship has drawbacks for cloaks since your cloak capable vesels have been given additional slots to fit the console (after much complaints by feds it was only fair and needed to maintain balance). No fed shipnhas lost hull, shield modifiers or anything to use a cloak.
Why should a single modern KDF vessel design have to suffer for having a technology we have been using for hundreds of years?
Once again you've hit the nail on the head directly with this.
Feds refuse to give up Hull , Shields , Weapons or Tact slots in order to have Battlecloaks or even standard non device cloaks.
And now they are asking for that stupid Pegasus cloak *which killed most of it's crew from memory* cause they designed it ? Good they can have it ... fill space up with lots of asteroids it and have that ruddy cloak a 95% chance of getting stuck in a asteroid then ... seems only fair
But in fairness to this then all species should have that cloak by their own definition cause it was surrendered to the Romulans who would have given it to the KDF ..
This is all just feds saying "MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAR" and nothing more.
At the time of posting, anyone on a Klink toon could see the ship; censorship is rather moot with the hundreds of pics likely stored on all the HDDs of fans. The description of the ship even implied in fluff it was an 'oh TRIBBLE we need this too' tech theft for identical stats and performance to the Avenger. They may change it, but my money is on the fact we saw it as intended.
SEE the ship, yes, any Klingons can go and see in the shipyard page. Doesn't change the fact that it was put in on accident. Heck, the patch is probably removing it now.
Also yes, it does say that it was essentially a bit of espionage to get it, still doesn't guarantee those stats are gonna stay that way because the devs probably will adjust things to the stats. They do have ship testers (which is no secret, go look in the Tribble forums for a big ole thread of people asking to test ships, you can ask and see if you can one day do some ship testing) who probably give things a good run-through before anyone else gets to see it.
Point is that they probably meant to add it for those testers on Tribble, and it was accidentally included with the patch. It was a test build for the ship, a mostly copy-paste of the Avenger that they meant to have for the sake of the testing.
It's still not released, so you cannot say that it is automatically merit for Feds have innate cloaks since this ship 'gives up nothing for it', because you don't know the final stats, nobody does until they officially release it in a dev blog when they are going to put the ship in the C-store.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
It's still not released, so you cannot say that it is automatically merit for Feds have innate cloaks since this ship 'gives up nothing for it', because you don't know the final stats, nobody does until they officially release it in a dev blog when they are going to put the ship in the C-store.
Let's let this one drop then, though my money is still on it being a superior facsimile.
Any amount of story parsing is one thing, but game balance has to rule.
So then yes, for game balance, Fed's three cloakers should have the ability innate like both Klinks and Roms do, because game balance has to rule, correct?
Once again you've hit the nail on the head directly with this.
Feds refuse to give up Hull , Shields , Weapons or Tact slots in order to have Battlecloaks or even standard non device cloaks.
People keep throwing around this, and given it is hard to compare at times due to KDF cruisers not matching Starfleet much at all. But when you put them up against each-other, both have pros and cons to the other. Early we compared notes and KDF ships don't have less everything, often they are more maneuverable, have more firepower, and in come cases, gasp, infact have stronger hulls. Enough with the misinformation and falsities to try to prop up your claims, guys. :rolleyes:
And now they are asking for that stupid Pegasus cloak *which killed most of it's crew from memory* cause they designed it ? Good they can have it ... fill space up with lots of asteroids it and have that ruddy cloak a 95% chance of getting stuck in a asteroid then ... seems only fair
But in fairness to this then all species should have that cloak by their own definition cause it was surrendered to the Romulans who would have given it to the KDF ..
This is all just feds saying "MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAR" and nothing more.
There is an irony in saying 'KDF should get it' (get moar), and then to turn around and mockingly criticize others of wanting something, especially when the Red forum is just as full of requests, or should I say absurd demands?
Let's let this one drop then, though my money is still on it being a superior facsimile.
People keep throwing around this, and given it is hard to compare at times due to KDF cruisers not matching Starfleet much at all. But when you put them up against each-other, both have pros and cons to the other. Early we compared notes and KDF ships don't have less everything, often they are more maneuverable, have more firepower, and in come cases, gasp, infact have stronger hulls. Enough with the misinformation and falsities to try to prop up your claims, guys. :rolleyes:
There is an irony in saying 'KDF should get it' (get moar), and then to turn around and mockingly criticize others of wanting something, especially when the Red forum is just as full of requests, or should I say absurd demands?
Well, it's all still presuming the thing comes out still as well. Could've been nothing but an early leak, and it's far from done, for all we know. People cannot buy it, so it's obviously not ready yet.
What I've noticed is that it depends on the ship as to how much is 'paid' for in terms of cloak. Compare the free Qin to the Defiant.
Qin has a mere .83 shield modifier, while the Defiant has a standard escort .9 shield modifier. The Qin has 33k hull to the Defiant's 30k. Qin has more crew, but honestly crew matters little with how borked it is. Defiant is more nimble with a higher base turn and inertia to the slower Qin. Defiant comes with the cloak console, and the Qin has the standard built-in cloak.
So Qin is a bit slower and a tad more tough on the hull, but has almost BoP level shields. Seems like it tends to pay at least in shields and turn for it's cloak. The Defiant is a tad squishy, but still had pretty solid stats and is quite quick and nimble still with the choice to cloak or not.
Compare that to the Negh'var vs the Galaxy:
Galaxy has more hull, 40k to the standard cruiser of 39k for the Negh'var. Neggy has more crew, but again, not a big thing there. Galaxy has the full cruiser commands, while the Negh'var has 3. Negh'var has a better base turn, but the Galaxy does at least have Saucer separation. Impulse modifier, inertia, and shields are all the same on both. Negh'var has power to weapons and engines, to the +5 across the board on the Galaxy. And of course, the Negh'var can choose to use cannons and has a cloak. Galaxy gets a sci console to the Negh'var's tac console.
If you want to bring it in, compare the Negh'var to the Dreadnought.
Much of the same things apply above to the normal Galaxy. Dread has a tac ensign instead of an engy ensign of the Negh'var. Dread also has spinal lance, while the Negh'var is still just a normal 40 ship and has no console. I believe the Dread only gets two cruiser commands, right?
Point from either comparison is that neither ship for cruisers seems to give up much for their cloaks. At least not these very old ones.
The Kamarag vs the Ambassador though is kinda different. The Kamarag has less hull to the Amby, 35k vs 39.5k (not fleet versions). Shields are the same, console and BOFF layouts are the same. Kamarag has a better turn, but the Amby has a better inertia modifier.
Now, point is that while I see that cruisers don't seem to pay much for cloaking, stuff like BoPs and Raptors do seem to give up some fairly significant stats for it. Maybe KDF cruisers should change, I dunno. But if KDF ships do change, then for Feds, the cloaking console should stay a console to keep that as the balancing act.
That's how I've seen it. Hell, I made a rather well thought-out thread ALL about cloaks the other day which pretty much got hammered by people and ignored the actual balance I felt I achieved with it. Who knows, I thought it was very unbiased by giving factions more uniqueness to their cloaks, without completely stomping on the other factions.
OR if it does become innate, then any KDF ships that have paid a price (primarily I refer to raptors in this case) for cloak, shouldn't have to pay that price anymore. I mean, what would be the point in having a price for it if others got it for no cost. Everyone (and I do mean everyone) should pay SOMETHING for it. A console or in ship stats.
To be fair, the entire ship line on both sides probably needs a sweeping balance pass to accommodate the entire game that has happened since some of these ships have been released.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Not going to do a full quote to minimize page stretching, and yes cruiser tier is harder to compare due to Starfleet having mainly Ships-of-the-Line cruisers, tough things to stand their ground, and KDF having lighter, more toothy Battle Cruisers. I feel I've done well in my Qin, though , even with the lower shield mod and the pivot point that seems to aggravate some people; though it doesn't phase me, ah well there I guess.
My personal focus on the consoles is it feels it's the remnants of an old system, in which KDF ships sacrificed a console for a cloak. That was the main thing behind the cloak console if I recall correctly. That system is long gone, and the Starfleet trio are now hindered by it with the new level of power from Fleet Consoles, having to give up one slot just in order to Cloak. Not just Fed vs KDF, but factoring in Romulans as well, the 'cloak factor' really has changed. And hey, fix the Qin too if it is really that broken while we're at it.
To be fair, the entire ship line on both sides probably needs a sweeping balance pass to accommodate the entire game that has happened since some of these ships have been released.
This is definite QFT material. Many old ships feel it now, they're eclipsed and inferior, even those with a VA rank requirement. The symptons of unchecked power-creep.
Kids, this is why you pay attention in school, and learn reading comprehension. Actually reply to the post next time instead of 'Poor KDF' tangents?
And this what we know as playing " feddie deaf". Rather than answer the reply smartly, give it the politicians deaf response and sidestep around the subject.
No, it's just not bothering to waste more time than needed responding to someone who fails to respond to full posts and instead attacks one part, who doesn't see current facts and instead clings to the past where his argument is strongest, and all-in-all is not even worth the time for even this response.
I know I am going to get flamed here. But after previous talks with others I think the federation needs cloaks on three ships total (Though the number has mild fluidity read below.)
Defiant and her derivatives. It was setup with a cloak, it fits the history of the type, enjoy.
Galaxy Dreadnaught. Again had a cloak so enjoy.
All timeships. I mean that as KDF, Romulan, Federation. It is supposed to move through time and be undetectable so it can observe or correct the time lines. Cloaks seem like a given.
After those it really should be dropped or make all cloaks a device slot. Even the Pegasus cloak was relatively easy to pickup and move to a new ship. So make them grades like other ship gear. Odd numbers are regular cloaks, evens are battle cloaks. IE Mk I vs Mk II.
And make how effective they are at actually hiding you based on grade. White-purple. Have them eat 10 power across the board.
Then it is a choice for any and every captain. Cloak or no cloak.
Note: The everyone cloak suggestion is based on if everyone has something it is less special.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
No, it's just not bothering to waste more time than needed responding to someone who fails to respond to full posts and instead attacks one part, who doesn't see current facts and instead clings to the past where his argument is strongest, and all-in-all is not even worth the time for even this response.
Or in colourful fandom layman's, rabid fanboyism.
No its a classic dodge on the feds part that we are used too.
My post was a clear and unanger response that asked why should KDF have to be handicapped for a cloak on the new BC with my reasons to that point.
You merely avoid responding to it points directly yet again here and then.
Thats fine. I understand why you cant defend the fact that the feds have lost nothing in balance to have cloaking on thier few ships that have the ability.
So, with the KDF new battle cruiser on the horizon with identical stats to the Avenger, except more crew and innate cloaking, that means the 'KDF ships sacrifice for their ability to cloak' excuse is now invalid. How about making the Fed ships' cloaking innate as well, now?
except the battlecruisers never sacrificed for their cloaking, only the more powerful battlecloak of the BoP's got a sacrifice.
Im against the idea personally , even as a fed .
Cloaking devices just dont sit right with me on Federation ships , I know there is precedence for them , but in every series we see one (1 ) ship with a cloaking device , where all other ships of the same class dont have it .
Giving all defiant class ships an integrated cloak makes no sense to me at all , sure many may choose to use the cloaking console , but as its not part of the design and additional ' bolt on ' equipment , i can live with it.
Not going to do a full quote to minimize page stretching, and yes cruiser tier is harder to compare due to Starfleet having mainly Ships-of-the-Line cruisers, tough things to stand their ground, and KDF having lighter, more toothy Battle Cruisers. I feel I've done well in my Qin, though , even with the lower shield mod and the pivot point that seems to aggravate some people; though it doesn't phase me, ah well there I guess.
My personal focus on the consoles is it feels it's the remnants of an old system, in which KDF ships sacrificed a console for a cloak. That was the main thing behind the cloak console if I recall correctly. That system is long gone, and the Starfleet trio are now hindered by it with the new level of power from Fleet Consoles, having to give up one slot just in order to Cloak. Not just Fed vs KDF, but factoring in Romulans as well, the 'cloak factor' really has changed. And hey, fix the Qin too if it is really that broken while we're at it.
This is definite QFT material. Many old ships feel it now, they're eclipsed and inferior, even those with a VA rank requirement. The symptons of unchecked power-creep.
The pivot point issue on all raptors (not just the Qin) is a bit of a...subjective thing. I know most don't like it. But I'm generally trying to keep my comparisons more stat-based.
The console aspect is part of an old system, that is true as well. While it is old, it's what is there as well. Changing it means having to look at the balance of cloaks for Fed and KDF. And it's possible that people won't want to give up ship stats, only for the devs to also say, 'Hey, we weakened your ships, but now these ships have innate cloaks", not everyone would want that.
I made a thread in the PvP forums awhile back that basically said, in a rather joking manner, that the game is balanced between the three factions. Namely that Fed and KDF are fairly well balanced to each other, and Romulans ARE balanced in regards to other Romulans. Think about it, take ONLY Fed and KDF stuff, and for all the issues the game has, there's still enough point-counterpoint that a rough balance is still achieved. Toss in Romulans, and while Romulans are 'balanced' to other Romulans, compared to Fed and KDF, Romulans completely toss everything up in the air.
Anywho, I particularly liked that statement. A lot of ships really do need a pass. Some need nerfs, some need buffs, some are probably fine. Many people want the Galaxy changed. I wouldn't mind some changes for the Star Cruiser (not the Odyssey), or perhaps improving the Bortas, etc etc.
Hell, Cryptic has almost completely obsoleted a lockbox ship of all things, and yes it's my opinion that it is obsoleted. Namely the D'kora. The Avenger (ignoring the new KDF ship, since we don't know the final stats, but it will probably apply as well) has pretty much outclassed it to the point I'd recommend never flying it except for the unique console it has and the awesome bridge.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
So, with the KDF new battle cruiser on the horizon with identical stats to the Avenger, except more crew and innate cloaking, that means the 'KDF ships sacrifice for their ability to cloak' excuse is now invalid. How about making the Fed ships' cloaking innate as well, now?
The Federation should never get innate cloaks, this was always one of the few reasons to try KDF out over the Federation and the faction population would be more imbalanced towards Fed if this was changed.
The reason KDF is getting a new ship is because hopefully it will encourage more to try the KDF out, this is supposed to be a multifaction game, not Federation online.
How about use your free character slot that is reserved for KDF and give the KDF a try instead of wanting everything on your Fed character.
Comments
Until there is some acknowledgement in the game that the Treaty of Algeron is now voided or some other reason that Feds can now develop cloaks, then that Treaty is still in effect.
Although, I would assume that the Romulan Republic would not allow the Federation to research any cloaking technologies. The Feds developed a working phase cloak when they had very limited resources to research cloaking technologies. Just imagine what they could develop if they are allowed to fully research cloaking technologies. Perhaps Phase Cloaks that are able to fire while cloaked.
The Path to 2409 was written 4 years ago. We have 4 years of in-game events that haven't been accounted for. It is very much out of date from the events you play through. :rolleyes:
As you seem to have, like many, quoted without reading when you quoted, I'll be more specific. There was an amendment to the Treat of Algernon that granted the original Defiant use of a Romulan cloaking device. It is thus likely that in return for all the aide from the Federation, that amendment was expanded and revised to permit a limited range of Tactical Starfleet vessels to mount Romulan units, such as the Avenger. Not once did I imply an open 'do what you want with cloaking' approach that you implied and went off on.
Ultimately this isn't even about the dated lore we have, but about game balance. These ships can cloak, it is in the game, lore approving or not. We are discussing the glaring differences between the Fed's requirements of a slotted console versus the other two factions.
I swear, if some of you didn't have the lore to strawman with, you would have no argument at all. :P
Even though the Path to 2409 was written 4 years ago in real life, the game has been confirmed by devs to still be in the year 2409 (which I still find a bit ridiculous, but oh well). So in universe/game thinking, the Path isn't anymore outdated as it was at launch. Just sayin' :P
It is merely speculation that the amendment was expanded. There are only three facts as far as cloaking and the Federation is concerned.
1. The Federation signed a treaty that prevented them from developing cloaking technologies.
2. One Starfleet ship was given special consideration to use a cloaking device in certain circumstances.
3. The treaty was renewed after the destruction of Romulus.
Unless the devs make some claim ingame that the Treaty is no longer in effect, then the Treaty in its original form is still in effect.
One ship somehow made its way from an alternate timeline to STO. The other is the Defiant and having a Defiant without a cloaking device is not a Defiant. Either way, cloaking devices should be kept to an absolute minimum for Starfleet ships.
For simplicity's sake, I'll be restricting this to KDF vs Federation. Romulan ships are accessible by both sides for all intents and purposes.
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_Qin_Heavy_Raptor vs. http://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_Tactical_Escort_Retrofit
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_Tor%27Kaht_Battle_Cruiser_Retrofit vs. http://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_Avenger_Battle_Cruiser
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Negh%27Var_Heavy_Battle_Cruiser vs. http://sto.gamepedia.com/Dreadnought_Cruiser
In short: The Fleet Qin has a slight edge in shield power and hull, but only has 4 tac consoles, 10 less inertia, and still has a borked turn axis that makes the ship much less competitive in PvP. Fortunately, KDF has the Somraw which is a better ship that's also more balanced. It's not a counterpart to the Defiant, which is why I didn't link it.
The Avenger mostly outperforms the nearest KDF counterpart, the Tor'kaht. The biggest 'advantages' are the high inertia and a boffstation setup more suited to A2B builds, along with the 5 fore weapon slots. This is why we smelly Klingon players have been complaining about the Avenger, it simply takes more away from the KDF. Even if we got a clone of the Avenger with a KDF skin, it wouldn't make any difference. The Federation now has easy access to a battlecruiser that is a match for, or better than, what the KDF has.
It's difficult comparing the Dreadnought to anything in the KDF arsenal or the Romulan arsenal, as it's a somewhat unique ship. Closest thing I could find in the KDF arsenal is the free Negh'var, which is superior to the Dreadnought in a number of ways. This, however, is indicative of the time when the KDF was SUPPOSED to have a strong advantage in cruisers/battlecruisers. It was the bread and butter of the KDF, alongside the BoPs and carriers. The Federation has its more varied (and now arguably superior) escort line, strong science ship line, and sturdy cruisers. This has been hopelessly muddled over the last 18-24 months. Back when the Dreadnought was released, Cryptic actually cared about balance between the factions, and avoided blatantly dumping all over what was supposed to be the KDF's bread and butter (carriers and battlecruisers).
Traditionally, KDF ships have sacrificed shield modifier, turnrate, or hull in order to 'compensate' for the cloak advantage. The exception to this has been the battlecruiser line, which has always been KDF's best ship line.
And again, fixation on lore. This isn't about lore, it is about game mechanics balance.
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Really?.... You just now come in and drop the mod hammer on this guy, yet I have seen others make "Disparaging remarks about other forum users" and a whole nation at one point. But yet, you feel he deserves to be silenced, what gives? I mean I've been watching quietly for awhile, and here are just a few examples;
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=13580191&postcount=76
You just insulted my country, which in turn insults me. shall I point out, that there are episodes of star trek where the federation, does not take the moral high ground, multiple times in TNG, like when SF forced the Indians off their planet to give it to the Cardassians. DS9, when SF Medical infects Odo (with out his knowledge) to kill all the changelings, just a few I can think of. Make sure you have some facts first.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=13502431&postcount=18
"Federation Whining Devices" Now I don't know about you, but that seems like a "Disparaging remark" about a group of players...
That's just two...
It might be coming out, true, but it was also accidentally leaked, as in, we were not supposed to see it yet. If you look at it, aside from the crew and innate cloak, the stats ARE equal to the Avenger, which tells me that the devs took the Avenger (fleet version in this case) and gave it's stats to that ship.
Most likely this is done for testing purposes, until they finalize the actual stats. Trying to justify an inbuilt Fed cloak over an accidental leak and no guarantee those are the final stats just seems silly to me.
Besides, not really supposed to talk about something that has been leaked like this, so both our posts will probably be edited anyways. So it's a bit of a moot point.
Why should we? No federation ship has drawbacks for cloaks since your cloak capable vesels have been given additional slots to fit the console (after much complaints by feds it was only fair and needed to maintain balance). No fed shipnhas lost hull, shield modifiers or anything to use a cloak.
Why should a single modern KDF vessel design have to suffer for having a technology we have been using for hundreds of years?
R.I.P
Besides the cloak on the Defiant was lost at the 2nd battle of Chin'Toka with the Defiant.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
At the time of posting, anyone on a Klink toon could see the ship; censorship is rather moot with the hundreds of pics likely stored on all the HDDs of fans. The description of the ship even implied in fluff it was an 'oh TRIBBLE we need this too' tech theft for identical stats and performance to the Avenger. They may change it, but my money is on the fact we saw it as intended.
Kids, this is why you pay attention in school, and learn reading comprehension. Actually reply to the post next time instead of 'Poor KDF' tangents?
I think you've hit the nail on the head here.
Any amount of story parsing is one thing, but game balance has to rule.
Feds get lots of decent science ships, thus encouraging fed sci captains with all their lovely anti-cloak possibilities.
Klingons get lots of cloaks, but few science ships. Encouraging tacs and hit/run specialists
Romulans get awesome cloaks, but much less power to allocate to subsystems.
Basically its rock/phaser/scissors.
Once again you've hit the nail on the head directly with this.
Feds refuse to give up Hull , Shields , Weapons or Tact slots in order to have Battlecloaks or even standard non device cloaks.
And now they are asking for that stupid Pegasus cloak *which killed most of it's crew from memory* cause they designed it ? Good they can have it ... fill space up with lots of asteroids it and have that ruddy cloak a 95% chance of getting stuck in a asteroid then ... seems only fair
But in fairness to this then all species should have that cloak by their own definition cause it was surrendered to the Romulans who would have given it to the KDF ..
This is all just feds saying "MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAR" and nothing more.
SEE the ship, yes, any Klingons can go and see in the shipyard page. Doesn't change the fact that it was put in on accident. Heck, the patch is probably removing it now.
Also yes, it does say that it was essentially a bit of espionage to get it, still doesn't guarantee those stats are gonna stay that way because the devs probably will adjust things to the stats. They do have ship testers (which is no secret, go look in the Tribble forums for a big ole thread of people asking to test ships, you can ask and see if you can one day do some ship testing) who probably give things a good run-through before anyone else gets to see it.
Point is that they probably meant to add it for those testers on Tribble, and it was accidentally included with the patch. It was a test build for the ship, a mostly copy-paste of the Avenger that they meant to have for the sake of the testing.
It's still not released, so you cannot say that it is automatically merit for Feds have innate cloaks since this ship 'gives up nothing for it', because you don't know the final stats, nobody does until they officially release it in a dev blog when they are going to put the ship in the C-store.
Let's let this one drop then, though my money is still on it being a superior facsimile.
So then yes, for game balance, Fed's three cloakers should have the ability innate like both Klinks and Roms do, because game balance has to rule, correct?
People keep throwing around this, and given it is hard to compare at times due to KDF cruisers not matching Starfleet much at all. But when you put them up against each-other, both have pros and cons to the other. Early we compared notes and KDF ships don't have less everything, often they are more maneuverable, have more firepower, and in come cases, gasp, infact have stronger hulls. Enough with the misinformation and falsities to try to prop up your claims, guys. :rolleyes:
There is an irony in saying 'KDF should get it' (get moar), and then to turn around and mockingly criticize others of wanting something, especially when the Red forum is just as full of requests, or should I say absurd demands?
Well, it's all still presuming the thing comes out still as well. Could've been nothing but an early leak, and it's far from done, for all we know. People cannot buy it, so it's obviously not ready yet.
What I've noticed is that it depends on the ship as to how much is 'paid' for in terms of cloak. Compare the free Qin to the Defiant.
Qin has a mere .83 shield modifier, while the Defiant has a standard escort .9 shield modifier. The Qin has 33k hull to the Defiant's 30k. Qin has more crew, but honestly crew matters little with how borked it is. Defiant is more nimble with a higher base turn and inertia to the slower Qin. Defiant comes with the cloak console, and the Qin has the standard built-in cloak.
So Qin is a bit slower and a tad more tough on the hull, but has almost BoP level shields. Seems like it tends to pay at least in shields and turn for it's cloak. The Defiant is a tad squishy, but still had pretty solid stats and is quite quick and nimble still with the choice to cloak or not.
Compare that to the Negh'var vs the Galaxy:
Galaxy has more hull, 40k to the standard cruiser of 39k for the Negh'var. Neggy has more crew, but again, not a big thing there. Galaxy has the full cruiser commands, while the Negh'var has 3. Negh'var has a better base turn, but the Galaxy does at least have Saucer separation. Impulse modifier, inertia, and shields are all the same on both. Negh'var has power to weapons and engines, to the +5 across the board on the Galaxy. And of course, the Negh'var can choose to use cannons and has a cloak. Galaxy gets a sci console to the Negh'var's tac console.
If you want to bring it in, compare the Negh'var to the Dreadnought.
Much of the same things apply above to the normal Galaxy. Dread has a tac ensign instead of an engy ensign of the Negh'var. Dread also has spinal lance, while the Negh'var is still just a normal 40 ship and has no console. I believe the Dread only gets two cruiser commands, right?
Point from either comparison is that neither ship for cruisers seems to give up much for their cloaks. At least not these very old ones.
The Kamarag vs the Ambassador though is kinda different. The Kamarag has less hull to the Amby, 35k vs 39.5k (not fleet versions). Shields are the same, console and BOFF layouts are the same. Kamarag has a better turn, but the Amby has a better inertia modifier.
Now, point is that while I see that cruisers don't seem to pay much for cloaking, stuff like BoPs and Raptors do seem to give up some fairly significant stats for it. Maybe KDF cruisers should change, I dunno. But if KDF ships do change, then for Feds, the cloaking console should stay a console to keep that as the balancing act.
That's how I've seen it. Hell, I made a rather well thought-out thread ALL about cloaks the other day which pretty much got hammered by people and ignored the actual balance I felt I achieved with it. Who knows, I thought it was very unbiased by giving factions more uniqueness to their cloaks, without completely stomping on the other factions.
OR if it does become innate, then any KDF ships that have paid a price (primarily I refer to raptors in this case) for cloak, shouldn't have to pay that price anymore. I mean, what would be the point in having a price for it if others got it for no cost. Everyone (and I do mean everyone) should pay SOMETHING for it. A console or in ship stats.
To be fair, the entire ship line on both sides probably needs a sweeping balance pass to accommodate the entire game that has happened since some of these ships have been released.
My personal focus on the consoles is it feels it's the remnants of an old system, in which KDF ships sacrificed a console for a cloak. That was the main thing behind the cloak console if I recall correctly. That system is long gone, and the Starfleet trio are now hindered by it with the new level of power from Fleet Consoles, having to give up one slot just in order to Cloak. Not just Fed vs KDF, but factoring in Romulans as well, the 'cloak factor' really has changed. And hey, fix the Qin too if it is really that broken while we're at it.
This is definite QFT material. Many old ships feel it now, they're eclipsed and inferior, even those with a VA rank requirement. The symptons of unchecked power-creep.
And this what we know as playing " feddie deaf". Rather than answer the reply smartly, give it the politicians deaf response and sidestep around the subject.
R.I.P
Or in colourful fandom layman's, rabid fanboyism.
Defiant and her derivatives. It was setup with a cloak, it fits the history of the type, enjoy.
Galaxy Dreadnaught. Again had a cloak so enjoy.
All timeships. I mean that as KDF, Romulan, Federation. It is supposed to move through time and be undetectable so it can observe or correct the time lines. Cloaks seem like a given.
After those it really should be dropped or make all cloaks a device slot. Even the Pegasus cloak was relatively easy to pickup and move to a new ship. So make them grades like other ship gear. Odd numbers are regular cloaks, evens are battle cloaks. IE Mk I vs Mk II.
And make how effective they are at actually hiding you based on grade. White-purple. Have them eat 10 power across the board.
Then it is a choice for any and every captain. Cloak or no cloak.
Note: The everyone cloak suggestion is based on if everyone has something it is less special.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
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No its a classic dodge on the feds part that we are used too.
My post was a clear and unanger response that asked why should KDF have to be handicapped for a cloak on the new BC with my reasons to that point.
You merely avoid responding to it points directly yet again here and then.
Thats fine. I understand why you cant defend the fact that the feds have lost nothing in balance to have cloaking on thier few ships that have the ability.
R.I.P
except the battlecruisers never sacrificed for their cloaking, only the more powerful battlecloak of the BoP's got a sacrifice.
Really, it's not a huge concession. You Klingons and Romulans still get to keep their precious "uniqueness" to lord over the Feds.
Cloaking devices just dont sit right with me on Federation ships , I know there is precedence for them , but in every series we see one (1 ) ship with a cloaking device , where all other ships of the same class dont have it .
Giving all defiant class ships an integrated cloak makes no sense to me at all , sure many may choose to use the cloaking console , but as its not part of the design and additional ' bolt on ' equipment , i can live with it.
Rear Admiral , Engineering Division
U.S.S. Sheffield N.C.C. 92016
So that has been settled. The Ship that shall not be named is fine then as it is.
R.I.P
The pivot point issue on all raptors (not just the Qin) is a bit of a...subjective thing. I know most don't like it. But I'm generally trying to keep my comparisons more stat-based.
The console aspect is part of an old system, that is true as well. While it is old, it's what is there as well. Changing it means having to look at the balance of cloaks for Fed and KDF. And it's possible that people won't want to give up ship stats, only for the devs to also say, 'Hey, we weakened your ships, but now these ships have innate cloaks", not everyone would want that.
I made a thread in the PvP forums awhile back that basically said, in a rather joking manner, that the game is balanced between the three factions. Namely that Fed and KDF are fairly well balanced to each other, and Romulans ARE balanced in regards to other Romulans. Think about it, take ONLY Fed and KDF stuff, and for all the issues the game has, there's still enough point-counterpoint that a rough balance is still achieved. Toss in Romulans, and while Romulans are 'balanced' to other Romulans, compared to Fed and KDF, Romulans completely toss everything up in the air.
Anywho, I particularly liked that statement. A lot of ships really do need a pass. Some need nerfs, some need buffs, some are probably fine. Many people want the Galaxy changed. I wouldn't mind some changes for the Star Cruiser (not the Odyssey), or perhaps improving the Bortas, etc etc.
Hell, Cryptic has almost completely obsoleted a lockbox ship of all things, and yes it's my opinion that it is obsoleted. Namely the D'kora. The Avenger (ignoring the new KDF ship, since we don't know the final stats, but it will probably apply as well) has pretty much outclassed it to the point I'd recommend never flying it except for the unique console it has and the awesome bridge.
The Federation should never get innate cloaks, this was always one of the few reasons to try KDF out over the Federation and the faction population would be more imbalanced towards Fed if this was changed.
The reason KDF is getting a new ship is because hopefully it will encourage more to try the KDF out, this is supposed to be a multifaction game, not Federation online.
How about use your free character slot that is reserved for KDF and give the KDF a try instead of wanting everything on your Fed character.