Any amount of story parsing is one thing, but game balance has to rule.
Feds get lots of decent science ships, thus encouraging fed sci captains with all their lovely anti-cloak possibilities.
Klingons get lots of cloaks, but few science ships. Encouraging tacs and hit/run specialists
Romulans get awesome cloaks, but much less power to allocate to subsystems.
Basically its rock/phaser/scissors.
The Romulan -10 to 4 subsystems is nothing i have 3 kdf and 3 Fed romulans this -40 power is countered by plasmonic leach and Aux to bat to give any romulan jut as much power as any fed or klink
klingons get 50% bonus damage now thanks to the pirate BO trait
The Romulans get the super OP 11.5% crit chance BASE...KDF 0 Fed 0 we have to buy 4% at a HUGE cost
The Feds have their nerfed repair rate which is a joke compared to the Rommies and klink's from bridge officers space powers
Then the Salt in the wound is Fleet wide cloaking devices klingon and battle cloaks Rommie and now flanking damage as well ? please............
I dont see any equality here
1 Romulan
2 klngon
3 Fed
dont bother with 2 and 3 just make a Rommie
There is no game balence at all
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
The Romulan -10 to 4 subsystems is nothing i have 3 kdf and 3 Fed romulans this -40 power is countered by plasmonic leach and Aux to bat to give any romulan jut as much power as any fed or klink
klingons get 50% bonus damage now thanks to the pirate BO trait
The Romulans get the super OP 11.5% crit chance BASE...KDF 0 Fed 0 we have to buy 4% at a HUGE cost
The Feds have their nerfed repair rate which is a joke compared to the Rommies and klink's from bridge officers space powers
Then the Salt in the wound is Fleet wide cloaking devices klingon and battle cloaks Rommie and now flanking damage as well ? please............
I dont see any equality here
1 Romulan
2 klngon
3 Fed
dont bother with 2 and 3 just make a Rommie
There is no game balence at all
I'm not a big smart math guy but I'm fairly sure I would have noted the large dmg increase if pirate did 50%...
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
Your sister? Who is writing anyway? Ah...I see...one of the little scared girls always cloaking...Lol!
Enjoy your battle and enhanced cloaks, evuls, and also your OP new battle cruiser...it doesn't matter for a skilled Fed.
When you bad guys fight a smart Fed you have to face your atrocious destiny...the hell of Gre'thor or the even worse living hell of Rura Penthe.:D
Lol, I dont even use battle cloak sir. Try again.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Your Javelin deals 125417 (89066) Disruptor Damage(Critical) to Tholian Recluse. > lol
Advisory: Don't pander the Klinkuns that are just here to cause trouble.
Getting back on topic, the grand total of three(3) Starfleet vessels which can cloak, and are forced to do so via a console, are starting to suffer for it with the continuous level of power creep. Mk XII Fleet consoles are a real step above what we've had for years, making the use of universals far more critical in selection. The obligation of a console to unlock what should be an innate ability, is becoming a hindrance.
With the Mogh on the horizon, it could very well set a new standard for cloaking vessels if that brief glimpse was accurate. If it does prove to be the Avenger and then some, that means the old 'standard of balance' for cloaking as it has been perceived, is null. And that all the older cloaking ships, Red and Blue, should be reviewed and the underpowered ones adjusted. At the very least those which cost real money.
No one is saying feds NEED a cloak. You're absolutely right, the core mechanics for the feds assume that they do not have a cloaking device and balance occurs without one. If the cloaking console simply ceased to exist, there would be no imbalance.
The issue addressed by this thread is that Cryptic gave the feds a cloaking console, which requires much more of a combat-capability sacrifice to use than the stat reduction of a kdf ship. What we have proposed is that if fed cloaking is going to be a thing, then it should just be on a couple vessels that are directly stat-comparable to kdf-equivalent ships. These ships are not currently stat-comparable, so we have proposed a corresponding stat nerf to go along with the cloak buff to keep things in-line.
That's not fair, that's removing exclusivity. Not the same.
Mind explaining to me how that works?
If the Fed players have to pay money to get something every KDF and Romulan player get off the bat, why should every KDF player get another boon for absolutely free, no penalty and no downside?
A Universal Console to inflect flank damage, obtained from buying a Zen store Raptor, that can then be installed on any Raider class ship.
Now, given that Federation and Romulans have ZERO Raiders, and that it could only be obtained from buying a KDF ship, how exactly is that removing exclusivity? Make it a Tier 5 Raptor refit, charge $20 for it and it becomes identical to the Federation Cloaking device Universal Console. Only usable on a small number of ships and Cryptic gets money.
Balanced and profitable.
"Why all the sales"?
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
No one is saying feds NEED a cloak. You're absolutely right, the core mechanics for the feds assume that they do not have a cloaking device and balance occurs without one. If the cloaking console simply ceased to exist, there would be no imbalance.
The issue addressed by this thread is that Cryptic gave the feds a cloaking console, which requires much more of a combat-capability sacrifice to use than the stat reduction of a kdf ship. What we have proposed is that if fed cloaking is going to be a thing, then it should just be on a couple vessels that are directly stat-comparable to kdf-equivalent ships. These ships are not currently stat-comparable, so we have proposed a corresponding stat nerf to go along with the cloak buff to keep things in-line.
Or alternatively, buffing up the 'inferior' KDF ships; as I stated before, we will have to wait and see the Mogh, it may break the old mold.
If the Fed players have to pay money to get something every KDF and Romulan player get off the bat, why should every KDF player get another boon for absolutely free, no penalty and no downside?
A Universal Console to inflect flank damage, obtained from buying a Zen store Raptor, that can then be installed on any Raider class ship.
Now, given that Federation and Romulans have ZERO Raiders, and that it could only be obtained from buying a KDF ship, how exactly is that removing exclusivity? Make it a Tier 5 Raptor refit, charge $20 for it and it becomes identical to the Federation Cloaking device Universal Console. Only usable on a small number of ships and Cryptic gets money.
Balanced and profitable.
In theorem, yes, it would be similar. But that's not exactly on topic with Fed Cloaking I'm afraid.
Or alternatively, buffing up the 'inferior' KDF ships; as I stated before, we will have to wait and see the Mogh, it may break the old mold.
Well that'd take more work for the devs than just messing with 5 ships, but if you're going to remove the inherent stat penalties for cloaking on kdf ships and give them ships that work fine independently from a cloak, then make their cloak a console as well. Same as the independently-fine fed ships. All that really needs to happen is for it to be the same on both sides for the same function.
Though to be honest, I don't think it'd be fair to the kdf for them to have to worry about now needing to make room for a console for the ability they've already built their tactics around.
The battlecruisers are relatively fine, KDF's focal point is traditionally the Qin, one would think it'd be less ships to fix than it seems at first glance. And between the raptor and escort, it seems to boil down to the turn rate most of all. The cruiser tiers are just two different breeds between Red and Blue, cloaking or not; and Raiders are a class unto themselves.
There is also internal balance, which is more concerning Federation. The Defiant is balanced to its respective sister escorts in Starfleet; reducing its stats would make it inferior to its kin, cloak innate or not. KDF doesn't have that problem.
Again, I feel, we have to wait and see the Mogh. If it turns out to be an Avenger-Plus, we have a whole new can of worms to factor in.
With the Mogh on the horizon, it could very well set a new standard for cloaking vessels if that brief glimpse was accurate. If it does prove to be the Avenger and then some, that means the old 'standard of balance' for cloaking as it has been perceived, is null. And that all the older cloaking ships, Red and Blue, should be reviewed and the underpowered ones adjusted. At the very least those which cost real money.
And so, even earlier than anticipated - it begins! *opens umbrella*
There is also internal balance, which is more concerning Federation. The Defiant is balanced to its respective sister escorts in Starfleet; reducing its stats would make it inferior to its kin, cloak innate or not. KDF doesn't have that problem.
That's a good point. However, it seems the Federation already has too many escorts with not enough differentiation, and a cloak-capable one would help with that. Maybe change the Patrol Escort into the old no-cloak Defiant and make the Defiant basically a raptor. Might TRIBBLE off a few folks who already spent their money, but it adds to the richness of the game overall.
And before anyone gets mad, yes it's only adding variety to the fed-side. We know the kdf lacks for new ships. This is just about the internal differentiation of escorts.
Unfortunately therein lies the problem, the Defiant Retro family are purchased vessels unlike its Red counterpart. People don't take well to the ships they've spent money on being reduced in any way, so the backlash would be resounding. Which is why in the contrast between those two, really it would have to be the Qin boosted; or else you risk devaluing someone else's investment.
You could do a turn-in type of project where if you were more adamant about the stats than the cloak you could trade your fleet Defiant for the new fleet Pat. Folks who bought the c-store defiant only did it for the cloak, but you could still give them something equivalent.
Possibly, but isn't the Fleet Patrol the flex escort now, and the Fleet Escort the Engi leaning one? Again, that balance already woven into the Fed Ship line. You'd start having to shuffle all the Blue escorts around.
And this thread is why the KDF can't have nice things... or things at all actually.
Its ridge envy, pure and simple. The average fed cant stand not being the top of the Targ pile in all things so they must connive and debate their way into convincing themselves that they are poorly designed as a faction with subpar choices in anything that doesnt fdraw the envy of others while pratically broadcasting their greatness for all tonsee.
Its really kinda sad if you think about it. So many feds have died to the attacks of KDF vessels that they have a neurosis about it and still blaim the cloak as the OP difference maker.
Kinda makes cannonical sense if you think on it. They where the last of the star fairing important races. I mean vulcans, romulans and even Klingons where already in space by the time they stumbled onto warp drive. I'd feel like the child at the grown up table too, crying for everything I thought could make me sit taller and see everyone on eye level.
Balance smalance, its envy of an ability they think makes the difference in a fight.
Seriuosly ask any competant Defiant pilot if that Battle cloaking BoP had a chance in a sustained dog fight. Afterall there is a reason why BoPs do hit-n-run attacks while a Defiant can loiter in combat almost at will, and it aint because the BoP can cut and run.
Pity them because we evidently spanked to hard in the old days and such a beating makes for poor sports and childish outlooks.
Sometimes I think Roach is a real Klingun...:eek:
Envy? Lol...maybe...for example when I see the Thissler videos...no Defiant pilot can do that and guess why?:P
Well, that's nover-tuned BoP there, pretty different from a Defiant. I tend to not worry about those 'elite' pvper ego flicks, it's cut-and-pasting their best moments, often of the oft-repeated decloak alpha. Viewing those get's kinda boring after a while.
Yup. Saw this coming. Friggin s**tstorm every time. STO Forums Rule #1: never ask for a Federation Battle Cloak. That simple. You already get plenty of goodies to elicit our Klingon tears, so stop whining that your Federation starships, which initially had a lend-leased Romulan cloak, don't get to disapoof in the middle of combat. If battle cloak means that much to you, go play a real Romulan or a BoP.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "The Borg - party-poopers of the galaxy"~ The Doctor
People keep claiming 'feddy whine and tears', but it's a legitimate concern that will likely come to a head of the Mogh releases with the stats that were glimpsed when the Fleet version was viewable in game. The new generation of Fleet consoles have already smashed those molds into rubble; which makes the cloak console a tentative selection. If the old 'balance system' is thrown out of the window with the next generation of ships, then it's time to look back and reexamine everything.
STO Forums Rule #1: never ask for a Federation Battle Cloak.
Better worded as never ask for Starfleet improvements in Federation forums, without expecting the angry Klinkuns barging in and waving their torches and bat'leths around. :rolleyes:
Its ridge envy, pure and simple. The average fed cant stand not being the top of the Targ pile in all things so they must connive and debate their way into convincing themselves that they are poorly designed as a faction with subpar choices in anything that doesnt fdraw the envy of others while pratically broadcasting their greatness for all tonsee.
Its really kinda sad if you think about it. So many feds have died to the attacks of KDF vessels that they have a neurosis about it and still blaim the cloak as the OP difference maker.
Kinda makes cannonical sense if you think on it. They where the last of the star fairing important races. I mean vulcans, romulans and even Klingons where already in space by the time they stumbled onto warp drive. I'd feel like the child at the grown up table too, crying for everything I thought could make me sit taller and see everyone on eye level.
Balance smalance, its envy of an ability they think makes the difference in a fight.
Seriuosly ask any competant Defiant pilot if that Battle cloaking BoP had a chance in a sustained dog fight. Afterall there is a reason why BoPs do hit-n-run attacks while a Defiant can loiter in combat almost at will, and it aint because the BoP can cut and run.
Pity them because we evidently spanked to hard in the old days and such a beating makes for poor sports and childish outlooks.
I prefer to call it Jonathan Archer syndrome since he pretty much embodies this attitude.
With the new klink battlecruiser being a clone of the avenger with a different console, I think that it's time to rework the fed cloak. I'm not asking for a battle cloak. I'm just asking for it to either become a DEVICE like it says, or at least give me more bang for my buck. If I have to lose a console slot to equip the cloak, at least make it a unique kind of cloak. Perhaps making it drain less shield power, or none at all? I don't know.
EDIT: Also, if Cryptic follows suit and creates a romulan version (like I'm sure they will), then it will have a battle cloak... making it the "best" version. I don't really like three copies of a ship, and having one of them being better than the rest.
Sardak (Science Officer): Captain of a 23k DPS R'Mor Temporal Science Vessel, R.R.W. Vathos Odan Brota (Science Officer): Captain of a 28k DPS Scryer Intel Science Vessel, U.S.S. Kepler Patiently waiting for a Romulan Science Vessel
With the new klink battlecruiser being a clone of the avenger with a different console, I think that it's time to rework the fed cloak. I'm not asking for a battle cloak. I'm just asking for it to either become a DEVICE like it says, or at least give me more bang for my buck. If I have to lose a console slot to equip the cloak, at least make it a unique kind of cloak. Perhaps making it drain less shield power, or none at all? I don't know.
EDIT: Also, if Cryptic follows suit and creates a romulan version (like I'm sure they will), then it will have a battle cloak... making it the "best" version. I don't really like three copies of a ship, and having one of them being better than the rest.
Yeah, that would be a cheesefest right there. And while I like cheese, I don't like it THAT much, LOL. I prefer mozarella anyway, hehe.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
People keep claiming 'feddy whine and tears', but it's a legitimate concern that will likely come to a head of the Mogh releases with the stats that were glimpsed when the Fleet version was viewable in game. The new generation of Fleet consoles have already smashed those molds into rubble; which makes the cloak console a tentative selection. If the old 'balance system' is thrown out of the window with the next generation of ships, then it's time to look back and reexamine everything.
Better worded as never ask for Starfleet improvements in Federation forums, without expecting the angry Klinkuns barging in and waving their torches and bat'leths around. :rolleyes:
Lol, and it's no wonder us Feds can't have nice things......the KDFers whine to try and get them taken away or nerfed. because their precious little BoP's can't stand against any one of our ships, flown by a halfway competent player. :cool::D:cool:
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
Comments
The Romulan -10 to 4 subsystems is nothing i have 3 kdf and 3 Fed romulans this -40 power is countered by plasmonic leach and Aux to bat to give any romulan jut as much power as any fed or klink
klingons get 50% bonus damage now thanks to the pirate BO trait
The Romulans get the super OP 11.5% crit chance BASE...KDF 0 Fed 0 we have to buy 4% at a HUGE cost
The Feds have their nerfed repair rate which is a joke compared to the Rommies and klink's from bridge officers space powers
Then the Salt in the wound is Fleet wide cloaking devices klingon and battle cloaks Rommie and now flanking damage as well ? please............
I dont see any equality here
1 Romulan
2 klngon
3 Fed
dont bother with 2 and 3 just make a Rommie
There is no game balence at all
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
I'm not a big smart math guy but I'm fairly sure I would have noted the large dmg increase if pirate did 50%...
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
Wow, I better go and buy myself a new umbrella cause this thursday when the Mogh comes it will be pouring tears! :P
^^ agreed. They are a sad bunch, little feddies. lol. want want want, gimme gimme gimme
The spoiled kids that want even more... reminds me of my sister lol
Your Javelin deals 125417 (89066) Disruptor Damage(Critical) to Tholian Recluse. > lol
Lol, I dont even use battle cloak sir. Try again.
Your Javelin deals 125417 (89066) Disruptor Damage(Critical) to Tholian Recluse. > lol
lol, please keep assuming. It's making you look great.
Your Javelin deals 125417 (89066) Disruptor Damage(Critical) to Tholian Recluse. > lol
There, edited that to read correctly for ya!
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
Getting back on topic, the grand total of three(3) Starfleet vessels which can cloak, and are forced to do so via a console, are starting to suffer for it with the continuous level of power creep. Mk XII Fleet consoles are a real step above what we've had for years, making the use of universals far more critical in selection. The obligation of a console to unlock what should be an innate ability, is becoming a hindrance.
With the Mogh on the horizon, it could very well set a new standard for cloaking vessels if that brief glimpse was accurate. If it does prove to be the Avenger and then some, that means the old 'standard of balance' for cloaking as it has been perceived, is null. And that all the older cloaking ships, Red and Blue, should be reviewed and the underpowered ones adjusted. At the very least those which cost real money.
No one is saying feds NEED a cloak. You're absolutely right, the core mechanics for the feds assume that they do not have a cloaking device and balance occurs without one. If the cloaking console simply ceased to exist, there would be no imbalance.
The issue addressed by this thread is that Cryptic gave the feds a cloaking console, which requires much more of a combat-capability sacrifice to use than the stat reduction of a kdf ship. What we have proposed is that if fed cloaking is going to be a thing, then it should just be on a couple vessels that are directly stat-comparable to kdf-equivalent ships. These ships are not currently stat-comparable, so we have proposed a corresponding stat nerf to go along with the cloak buff to keep things in-line.
Mind explaining to me how that works?
If the Fed players have to pay money to get something every KDF and Romulan player get off the bat, why should every KDF player get another boon for absolutely free, no penalty and no downside?
A Universal Console to inflect flank damage, obtained from buying a Zen store Raptor, that can then be installed on any Raider class ship.
Now, given that Federation and Romulans have ZERO Raiders, and that it could only be obtained from buying a KDF ship, how exactly is that removing exclusivity? Make it a Tier 5 Raptor refit, charge $20 for it and it becomes identical to the Federation Cloaking device Universal Console. Only usable on a small number of ships and Cryptic gets money.
Balanced and profitable.
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
Or alternatively, buffing up the 'inferior' KDF ships; as I stated before, we will have to wait and see the Mogh, it may break the old mold.
In theorem, yes, it would be similar. But that's not exactly on topic with Fed Cloaking I'm afraid.
Misconstruing the thread. Nothing would be removed from KDF, and some posts even proposed KDF ships being tweaked in a positive manner as well.
EDIT:
Well that'd take more work for the devs than just messing with 5 ships, but if you're going to remove the inherent stat penalties for cloaking on kdf ships and give them ships that work fine independently from a cloak, then make their cloak a console as well. Same as the independently-fine fed ships. All that really needs to happen is for it to be the same on both sides for the same function.
Though to be honest, I don't think it'd be fair to the kdf for them to have to worry about now needing to make room for a console for the ability they've already built their tactics around.
There is also internal balance, which is more concerning Federation. The Defiant is balanced to its respective sister escorts in Starfleet; reducing its stats would make it inferior to its kin, cloak innate or not. KDF doesn't have that problem.
Again, I feel, we have to wait and see the Mogh. If it turns out to be an Avenger-Plus, we have a whole new can of worms to factor in.
And so, even earlier than anticipated - it begins! *opens umbrella*
That's a good point. However, it seems the Federation already has too many escorts with not enough differentiation, and a cloak-capable one would help with that. Maybe change the Patrol Escort into the old no-cloak Defiant and make the Defiant basically a raptor. Might TRIBBLE off a few folks who already spent their money, but it adds to the richness of the game overall.
And before anyone gets mad, yes it's only adding variety to the fed-side. We know the kdf lacks for new ships. This is just about the internal differentiation of escorts.
bzzt wrong, keep trying though.
Your Javelin deals 125417 (89066) Disruptor Damage(Critical) to Tholian Recluse. > lol
Its ridge envy, pure and simple. The average fed cant stand not being the top of the Targ pile in all things so they must connive and debate their way into convincing themselves that they are poorly designed as a faction with subpar choices in anything that doesnt fdraw the envy of others while pratically broadcasting their greatness for all tonsee.
Its really kinda sad if you think about it. So many feds have died to the attacks of KDF vessels that they have a neurosis about it and still blaim the cloak as the OP difference maker.
Kinda makes cannonical sense if you think on it. They where the last of the star fairing important races. I mean vulcans, romulans and even Klingons where already in space by the time they stumbled onto warp drive. I'd feel like the child at the grown up table too, crying for everything I thought could make me sit taller and see everyone on eye level.
Balance smalance, its envy of an ability they think makes the difference in a fight.
Seriuosly ask any competant Defiant pilot if that Battle cloaking BoP had a chance in a sustained dog fight. Afterall there is a reason why BoPs do hit-n-run attacks while a Defiant can loiter in combat almost at will, and it aint because the BoP can cut and run.
Pity them because we evidently spanked to hard in the old days and such a beating makes for poor sports and childish outlooks.
R.I.P
Well, that's nover-tuned BoP there, pretty different from a Defiant. I tend to not worry about those 'elite' pvper ego flicks, it's cut-and-pasting their best moments, often of the oft-repeated decloak alpha. Viewing those get's kinda boring after a while.
"The Borg - party-poopers of the galaxy" ~ The Doctor
You can quit your whining now feddies.
Nobody's asking for a battlecloak. We're asking for a slight retuning of the existing fed cloak.
Better worded as never ask for Starfleet improvements in Federation forums, without expecting the angry Klinkuns barging in and waving their torches and bat'leths around. :rolleyes:
I prefer to call it Jonathan Archer syndrome since he pretty much embodies this attitude.
EDIT: Also, if Cryptic follows suit and creates a romulan version (like I'm sure they will), then it will have a battle cloak... making it the "best" version. I don't really like three copies of a ship, and having one of them being better than the rest.
Odan Brota (Science Officer): Captain of a 28k DPS Scryer Intel Science Vessel, U.S.S. Kepler
Patiently waiting for a Romulan Science Vessel
Yeah, that would be a cheesefest right there. And while I like cheese, I don't like it THAT much, LOL. I prefer mozarella anyway, hehe.
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
Lol, and it's no wonder us Feds can't have nice things......the KDFers whine to try and get them taken away or nerfed. because their precious little BoP's can't stand against any one of our ships, flown by a halfway competent player. :cool::D:cool:
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"