lol trek fans are the worst. The shows were for the most part terrible and using them as examples of good writing or 'makes sense' is just stupid, for the most part they were racial/political/social diatribes using aliens as stand-ins.
whining about dinosaurs, do you even know your source material? this is star trek. in a universe where a man devolves into some kind of freaky spider thing or when you go past warp 10 you inexplicably turn into a prehistoric lizard and has every alien ever, including dimensional beings that could possess you and give you godlike powers, or Q who can do whatever the hell he wants, some bionosaurs suddenly aren't allowed or don't make sense?
get outta here, there is almost no canon in star trek, it was always at the whims and mercies of whomever was the writer, which is why it was rife/riddled with plot holes.
Guys think Q is ok but draw the line at dinosaurs with friggen lasers, when a guy exist in your universe who can just create them out of thin air.
idiotic. and you wanna call geko or the staff arrogant?
I wish there was a 'Like' button for comments like this.
All of the Star Trek movies were bad. All of the Star Trek shows were bad with various good individual episodes in them. It's true that Star Trek fans are really the worst. I see Star Trek fans tear apart their own fandom than sports fans tear apart their own favorite teams. JJ Abrams made Star Trek culturally relevant again, you should be thankful. But having seen Star Trek fans hate every. single. movie. since I was a kid, you can only cry wolf so many times before I just tune it out and write it off as pointless nerd rage without any semblance of rationality or reason. It's Abrams Derangement Syndrome. Nothing more.
But Star Trek was never Oscar-winning material. It might have been revolutionary in the 1960's, but that was then. This is now. We're not kids anymore. We're grown-ups with a wide variety of cultural exposure and we can look back on Star Trek and appreciate it for what it was then.
But to try to apply what it was then to what Star Trek Online is now is really just ludicrous. Star Trek Online is for nostalgia and entertainment. If you asked 10 different people what made something 'Star Trek' you would get 10 different answers. Cryptic's staff are made up of many Star Trek fans. To think otherwise is just plain ignorant if you can't read between the lines and catch the various references in the game that only a really hardcore fan would have put in there. Seriously.
In the end, this thread is just like many other threads like it. A single Star Trek fan trying to dictate what 'real' Star Trek is using the same old tired 'No True Scotsman' argument without any grasp on reality in regards to MMO's or the video game industry in any sense of the term.
I'm ticked off at Geko's interview as well. He brags about being a Star Trek fan and automatically dismisses a canonical ship that was named many times. Just because "it was a big B'rel". Well I ranted on that thread so I'll leave it at that.
But in my eyes, he's not a real Star Trek fan. If he was, he would've bent backwards to get every canonical ship in STO. That includes the "big B'rel", and the "ugly kitbashses".
It's blatantly obvious that they don't know what they're talking about sometimes. Is it true that the K'vort is a bigger B'rel? Yes, but not on the scale that they're thinking. At the proper ~350 meter length ( http://www.suricatafx.com/?p=274 ) the K'vort is the same size as just about any other BoP in the game.
I trust in Suricata's research, it's well thought out.
Personally I think there were better choices to be made for season 8 better bad guys to be brought in before a one episode bad guy. JMHO
the klingon faction always wants more, but really what can you do with ships that look like flying crosses. They will only be happy when they are given 1 shot 1 kill weapons on their ships.
The Romulans all I can say is since it was launched the game does not work right on my computer. Up till then I had no problems.
"i hate the idea of fighting dinos, so i'm going to say most people will hate fighting dinos too without any polled statistics lol irony since the op mentioned polls. if you even think about liking fighting dinosaurs then ur obviously an elistist. i like klingons too if u dont ur racist".
I'd just like to point out that if alien T-Rex's were shown in any canon trek series, they'd have been an enormous success and people would've loved the episode that featured them.
That being said, Geko is a an arrogant narcissist who will only ever listen to his own opinion about what should be in the game.
T-Rex and dinosaurs are ok i mean there are much stranger things in the universe and our settlers would take cows and chicken with them if they leave earth eventually the t-rex was the buffalo of the voth? the problem is the phantasie of most people is not able to show them a good explanation ...
the kvort problem sorry but this ship is total TRIBBLE i mean look at the windows in the shows they havent changed in size ... this was really a ship where the developer of the show never really thought ... and the label K?vort wasnt given to always the same size or type of ship it always changed matoks ship i think was called a kvort but it was only brel size ...
and to call developers arogant is really shameless expescially with the explanation they dont listen to you ... i mean player often want some crazy stuff but not always the stuff they want would make the game better ... because they dont have the right perspective and dont see the bigger picture ... i dont want to say the devs are always right wit everything they do (in my eyes)
I would like that. Maybe tribble grenades, and a tribble launcher? OH OH OH!!!!! A GIANT MUTATED CANNIBAL TRIBBLE THAT HUNGERS FOR THE FLESH OF KLINGONS!!!!!!!!!
At least inside there, water scarcity might make sense as an issue.
It never made much sense to suggest that water could be rare or hard for a warp capable species to acquire, so much so that they chase other Voyager at warp, and ignore that every planet Voyager stops at has water.
He has a point the Kazon where essentially rednecks in constant "hillbilly chase mode" ignore all things chase target while someone plays the banjo.....
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I love the "The Forum is raging! Majority WANTS!" Fallacy about nearly everyone falls into including OP...
Yes there are Threads about K'Vort and Galaxy, Dinos with Laz0rs... yes at least one Galaxy Thread has over a hundred Pages...
No it is NOT the Majority because it is the same 50 Users posting OVER AND OVER again in that thread discussing and lamenting the current status with the irregular one off stray posters in between that would add maybe 100 Unique "Yes do!"s to all that...
And those same Users are raging ingame in Fleet Chats etc.
The Forums are the smallest part and hilariously one sided... most of those that are happy with it are ingame not caring about Forums at all... only those that are not happy feel the need to cry out loud...
And again you fell from fallacy to fallacy insulting the Devs because YOU 1. Feel they did wrong and 2. "OMG THAT'S NOT STAR TREK!!!111!" of which both points are nothing more than your personal little world with absolutely NO bearing to the overall status of "Not Trek"-"Trek"...
And don't get me started on your complete lack of experience and basic knowledge of economics...
You still believe "Customer is King" and that a Customer must be pleased at all cost...
That is CUTE!
The Real World says otherwise...
The Only Thing that makes a real buck are a few little things...
You don't do what the Customer wants... YOU MAKE the Customer want what you OFFER...
Then go on and fix the Price with artificial Scarcity and Planned Obsolescence, be it in form of faulty parts or simply because you didn't include all of the new stuff so you can spew out a new Ipho... Ehm I mean... "a new product" 6 months later.
And again... sure you can try and make some Polls... but as I said they are worth nothing because A) Forums are one sided as hell and They do not represent the majority of Players
And even in this One-Sided Adventure we can't even make our minds up so the actual Number of People wanting X in a Poll will be even smaller.
Sure it may be beneficial... but we could end up a year without content because some thickheaded people brought enough brethren to kill the Poll with "First FIx all bugs before new stuff!"...
And I feel far more reassured that the Devs keep this in their hands than hand it over to the Zealots and Flagellants that make up the Star Trek Fandom and would work only to build up their tiny little version of ST regardless of Reality and anyone else...
Oh and btw. Pandas are in Lore way before that Panda Island Expansion... so please educate yourself before simply repeating and spewing Hat0r-Speech...
Geko is being pointed responsible for some serious misplaced speeches and design decisions...
First: Voth Dinosaurs.
I really hope you will give us some "Trek" reason for them, because when we think about shuttles, transporters, rifles and even air bombardment, there is no reason for T-Rex with beams...
Seems that he in a arrogant act decided that... just because he wants it and we players have to shove it down our throats. Can you drop your ego and create content that make sense?
I think there are trek reasons. the whole team has to agree as its not 100% geko's decision, so at the end of the day you dont like it. well thats your right but that does not mean its shoved down our throats or he has an ego because he did something you did not like. a developer adding something to a game a player does not like happens in every single game ever.
I'll say only this: Make that faction as good as Romulans and Federation, then you will see the player population rising... and then people buying stuff and a sort.
If you don't take care of your farm, would it grow?
as much as I enjoy the klingons and want to see them expanded, they have added a huge amount from where they were. and people are still not coming. the 'build it and they will come' is a myth that gets thrown around at every opportunity. They are building it and people are still not coming. at what point will this massive horde of players turn up to play klingons if they have no interest in them at the moment? Is it another 5 episode, another 10? 2 more ships? 5? at what point to they invest their limited resources into a faction that is apparently not growing on the hope that people will turn up?
I'd love more KDF stuff but it does not make them money (or certainly much less than comparative time spent on something else) and there is no indication its going to change.
If they spent time making a huge klingon faction, the profits will probably be small and the game will ultimately suffer as a result with less development in the future. I know KDF players dont want to hear that but they need to worry about the games overall health, even if thats at the expense of the kdf. the lesser of two evils if you will.
A Warning: Blizzard made a stupid decision when they dropped the great lore content of "Blizzard MMO" to put Pandas... the result: Big drop in player base.
Apples and oranges. Different game, genre, sub model, game age. your comparsion means nothing.
If someone here step and say that all I said is bull**** and they need to make money, go to school and learn something about marketing first. You can't make profit and be happy with it if your customers are not satisfied.
You may be right but going to marketing school wont change that as you are only guessing.
Who says their customers are not satisfied? Are you basing it off your own personal opinion? a few people on the forums? have you seen every metric they have at their disposal? seen how popular or unpopular season 8 will be? the sales of KDF vs Romulans vs Fed. comparative metrics over the years?
no of course not. you are one player on the internet who thinks they have a clue about the player happiness, what is or is not canon, when you dont. and dont take that personally because none of us do. but while MMO's are shutting left right and centre and game companies are going out of business i will back anyone still standing as doing a decent job.
I think there are trek reasons. the whole team has to agree as its not 100% geko's decision, so at the end of the day you dont like it. well thats your right but that does not mean its shoved down our throats or he has an ego because he did something you did not like. a developer adding something to a game a player does not like happens in every single game ever.
as much as I enjoy the klingons and want to see them expanded, they have added a huge amount from where they were. and people are still not coming. the 'build it and they will come' is a myth that gets thrown around at every opportunity. They are building it and people are still not coming. at what point will this massive horde of players turn up to play klingons if they have no interest in them at the moment? Is it another 5 episode, another 10? 2 more ships? 5? at what point to they invest their limited resources into a faction that is apparently not growing on the hope that people will turn up?
I'd love more KDF stuff but it does not make them money (or certainly much less than comparative time spent on something else) and there is no indication its going to change.
If they spent time making a huge klingon faction, the profits will probably be small and the game will ultimately suffer as a result with less development in the future. I know KDF players dont want to hear that but they need to worry about the games overall health, even if thats at the expense of the kdf. the lesser of two evils if you will.
Apples and oranges. Different game, genre, sub model, game age. your comparsion means nothing.
You may be right but going to marketing school wont change that as you are only guessing.
Who says their customers are not satisfied? Are you basing it off your own personal opinion? a few people on the forums? have you seen every metric they have at their disposal? seen how popular or unpopular season 8 will be? the sales of KDF vs Romulans vs Fed. comparative metrics over the years?
no of course not. you are one player on the internet who thinks they have a clue about the player happiness, what is or is not canon, when you dont. and dont take that personally because none of us do. but while MMO's are shutting left right and centre and game companies are going out of business i will back anyone still standing as doing a decent job.
Regarding the KDF faction: I can give some good reasons why the supposed 'build it' part (at least for LoR) hasn't been a roaring success.
First, they timed this 'build it' phase (expanding KDF to 1-50 and the revamping of the tutorial) with the introduction of the Romulans AND another exclusive console given over to the Federation. So, the vaunted KDF cloaks became utterly, completely, and crushingly irrelevant and one of our coolest remaining exclusive consoles was peddled off. That's two less reasons to play KDF over Federation.
Secondly, the Romulans were all Cryptic was friggin talking about at the time of the LoR expansion. All the marketing was about the Romulans. The slate of KDF improvements was seemingly an afterthought.
Thirdly, the Federation/Fed-Roms present a far more balanced and effective ship lineup than the KDF/KDF-Roms, something that's immediately obvious to anyone with more than 2 neurons to rub together. The Federation still has its clear science ship edge, their escorts have always been fundamentally better than the Raptors, and the Romulans basically fill in what gaps that were left.
Fourthly, the LoR content is a pitiful excuse for 'building it'. Expansion to 1-50 is merely the first step, to be followed by OTHER steps (which we have yet to see or even hear of). KDF, again, needs more ships. Specifically, science ships and escorts. More skin customization would be nice, both character and ships. We also need an additional storyline arc to help fill in the leveling. Basically, most of a Season's worth of work. Heaven forfend should Cryptic actually devote a Season to the KLINGONS. They couldn't even bring themselves to do it with LoR, deciding instead that it was a brilliant time to introduce the Romulans, thus overshadowing said long-awaited improvements to the KDF.
I don't consider the pathetic trickle of development aimed at the KDF over a period of 2 years to be 'building it'. Especially since a lot of that was a long time ago, and a lot of BS has happened since. LoR was the first major improvement the KDF had seen in quite some time, and it wasn't enough. Everyone seems to think it was, but it wasn't.
in regards to the k'vort. wouldn't it be better comparing it to a ship more similar in the game such as a mogai? they are closer in size although k'vort is smaller. I don't think any one would expect it to have a turn rate of a b'rel.
but if you stick to the so called actual dimensions of ships. some would think a negh'var and vor'cha would turn better than they do compared to a mogai.
so what ever way you look at it there is hurdles. but it's a ship that was used a lot and used in the mirriror universe as well.
maybe a mirror universe lock box. that could be the kdf reward. similar to how you open the temporal ship. just an idea.
i'd gladly buy a k'vort if it was slightly more of an 'escort' style ship rather than a raider.
Personally, I don't like the whole dinosaur idea. It's just not my thing.
But then again, I really liked the direction Cryptic took with the LoR story and the Romulans, while many people were clearly disgusted by it. The point being - not every season can be for everyone. S8 is obviously not OP's fav., neither is mine I have to admit as I would probably max out the rep. where I need it and go back to fighting Borg or Tholians afterwards. But hey, it's ok, maybe S9 will bring something I really like. There are a lot of things to do in STO until then anyway.
That said, I think a big portion of the concerns and arguments about the dinosaurs in S8 are a direct result by how it was presented to us. At least I got that vibe. I do believe that if they made the effort to bring the dinosaurs in the storyline via some more plausible in universe explanation, through one of those nice thematic dev.blogs the outcry on the forum would be lower.
Instead they posted the infamous "I just wan't dinosaurs with frickin' lasers on their heads!" explanation, which could give out the wrong impression to people. Some of them clearly interpreted it as "I'll do what the hell I want with STO and that's it!" and now Geko is getting all the flak for that, when in fact it is the entire team that has to agree on such a large adition in STO.
Point being, they could have gone more smoothly about the issue, especially since according to some devs. that posted in the forum, they knew it's somewhat of a contraversial decision. Let's hope the PR team learns from this and does better next time.
In the end while some new unexpected things are allways ok, and all the fans have their own opinions of what's apropriate and what's not, I sincerely hope that this unorthodox addition to STO does not allow the "Since there are dinos in STO, I want a flying broomstick and a magic wand!" crowd to have their way, because things could go downhill very fast from there.
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
First: Voth Dinosaurs.
I really hope you will give us some "Trek" reason for them, because when we think about shuttles, transporters, rifles and even air bombardment, there is no reason for T-Rex with beams...
Seems that he in a arrogant act decided that... just because he wants it and we players have to shove it down our throats. Can you drop your ego and create content that make sense?
I agree that when you think about Star Trek a T-Rex does not come to mind. But just look at the Trek universe. We have shapeshifters, omnipotent Q, the prophets in the wormhole, aliens like gorn, tholians, borg, melkot...
Star Trek covers science and even mystic beings. There is not really a theme to all Trek villains. I was kind of shocked at first too but after some thought I am ok with dinos. And there are much stranger things in the Trek universe.
Also you could simply say Q saw a toy and manipulated to universe so it led to something like that because he thought it would be fun.
K'Vort and Galaxy and general player base feedback
Your podcast today was a testament that you're misinformed about the K'Vort and don't want anyone questioning your opinion.
Come on Cryptic, take a look on the Forums, on the Fleet chats, ESD channel, the MAJOR part of the playerbase want an upgrade on the Galaxy.
KDF players are crying out loud for a equivalent of the Scimitar/Andorian Escort.
Why don't you listen to so many requests...?
They do sometimes listen to the players. Also there is only a small part of the playerbase in the forums I would say. The galaxy was designed when the whole game was a lot different. It was still bad at the time but not that much worse than the other options. Many old ships could use some rework. I don't understand why they did not make the fleet version better but I suppose the just follow their system.
I guess they have the following problem: If they rework the galaxy, fans of other old ships will demand the same. So they would have to do a major rework of all old ships. If they just make a new galaxy people who paid money for the old one will feel cheated.
In the end, no matter what they do some people will be unhappy. But who knows maybe we will see a better galaxy at some point.
KDF don't make profit speech
I'll say only this: Make that faction as good as Romulans and Federation, then you will see the player population rising... and then people buying stuff and a sort.
If you don't take care of your farm, would it grow?
It is a catch 22 I guess. They do not want to spend a lot of money for a small population and they won't get more players unless they spend money on new content.
If they make a big KDF update the crying of the FEDs will be endless because they did not get anything. So they would have to hide the update in some other content, like lor. Being able to create a KDF char with lvl 1 as a new player is very important if you want to increase the player base in my opinion.
I am hoping that the lor update showed them how successful another faction can be. If the KDF gets a new ship and it sells well we might even get some dev attention. The problem is, if a fed ships sells like 5 times as often as a kdf one but takes the same mount of money to create, there is not much of a reason to make kdf ships.
I can not really blame them for making an economical decision. Although I do think they could make a lot more money with the KDF, if they were willing to try. The bortasqu sales were not only bad because there were few kdf players, it was simply less interesting than the oddy. The feds got a nice cruiser that trumped most of their other ships and was probably the best fed cruiser at the time. The kdf got a big space whale. Compared to the battlecruisers it was not that tempting and the console layout sucked for healing. But the low sales convinced them that there was not much money to make with the KDF I guess.
They should try a bop 3-bundle, or a new avenger like battlecruiser. I think there are quite a few ideas that would sell well.
Last I checked Trek was about anything happening ...Anything ..Space TRIBBLE, Picard and crew getting sent to be Robin hood Men in tights , The DS9 crew being put into a monopoly game of death, Janeway and Paris becoming amphibians, and making babies....Greek gods, probes coming back asking where they came from then making a movie about it all over again , Computers be defeated with Kirk Logic, Transporters curing old age viruses, An Alien impregnating Troi with itself to experience life, traveling to the center of the galaxy to find God, going back in time to save whales, going back in time to fight Cyborgs with freaking lasers on their heads, fighting a madman with a doomsday weapon quoting Moby ****.
Trek is anything it wants to be, there is no limits to the imagination IDIC, including Dinosaurs.
That's it, I give up. You win the internet.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Harden up Princess Looking for an Oceanic fleet? Check out our website: www.ausmonauts.com
as much as I enjoy the klingons and want to see them expanded, they have added a huge amount from where they were. and people are still not coming. the 'build it and they will come' is a myth that gets thrown around at every opportunity. They are building it and people are still not coming. at what point will this massive horde of players turn up to play klingons if they have no interest in them at the moment? Is it another 5 episode, another 10? 2 more ships? 5? at what point to they invest their limited resources into a faction that is apparently not growing on the hope that people will turn up?
I'd love more KDF stuff but it does not make them money (or certainly much less than comparative time spent on something else) and there is no indication its going to change.
If they spent time making a huge klingon faction, the profits will probably be small and the game will ultimately suffer as a result with less development in the future. I know KDF players dont want to hear that but they need to worry about the games overall health, even if thats at the expense of the kdf. the lesser of two evils if you will.
Bortas'q was "sabotaged" in the drawing stage by the person who decided to give a turn ratio of 5.
I thought a lot why somebody would do something like that and I can think at least at three possible answers.In my opinion these are :
1.)Fear that the bortas would had make Federation players to run away from PVP if it would had been a good ship so 5 turn ratio was a assurance that it won't do much damage in PVP but it will do enough damage in PVE.(Federation players running away from FvK queue would had make them lost money )
2.)Somebody has a bad opinion about players playing kdf and wanted to play a practical joke aka designing a kdf battle cruiser with DHC and 5 turn ratio.
3.) Need of approval. If by chance a good kdf ship would be launched and it would make very good sales that would make all people that said many times that kdf is not worth building anything ( my translation of :doesn't make money) look incompetent.
In the same time not giving new good T5 ships to kdf makes money indirectly because as kdf your alternatives are to roll a new romulan char and buy again ships/gear etc or buy a lockbox ship if you intend to keep playing PVP.
That being said I will believe that new kdf ship will appear when I will see it on c-store. Anything with 5/2 weapon layout,5 tactical consoles,battlecloak, decent shield mod,decent hull,good inertia and good turn rate will sell in this moment.
"There already is a Borg faction, its called the Federation. They assimilate everyone else's technology and remove any biological or technical distinctiveness and add it to their own."
I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
Dinosaurs with lasers....overkill for sure, but it's to draw a lower age/immature demographic to sto. I'd rather they be pulled...but it isn't game breaking, I barely play ground as is
yea....I don't get why people think dinosaurs=child, I have a profound love in paleontology I'm currently in school for it and archaeology, and love dinosaurs myself, I love their concept, their theories, I love even more the fact that these beasts were the largest land species on earth at one point and managed to co exist in a chaotic state.
I really do find it insulting you'd call all dino lovers as an immature demographic, I can almost guarantee you everyone who loved Dino's as a kid still loves them.
So yeah, as I said, being in the minority shouldn't automatically mean 'ignore' and it would be nice to feel that our opinions are valued or, at the VERY least, acknoweldged - and they appear to be neither.
First of all... Yeah... Reality is sad...
And I did not advocate for more Ignorance of said thread...
The thing I wanted to convey was, just because there are that many pages, doesn't mean that a proportionate number of Unique Users are involved as so many claim when they say "But that has SOOOO many Pages!" over and over again.
Again... sure ignoring is bad... but the problem is that people like you won't stop when the Devs say "No!" the only answer you accept is "Yes!" because you feel somehow entitled to a positive answer due to the perceived Size of your Request.
You know that this is true... the instant the Devs say a definite "No" (and I am too lazy to check if they already haven't done that) you and some others will each open a New Thread demanding it again and lamenting about how the Devs are bad and how they treat you sooo bad and so on regardless if the original thread was closed or not.
Um, no. Not sure how you jumped to that conclusion. If you listen to the Geko interview on the podcast "ugly kitbashes" and "big B'Rel" are terms he used. I guess he's the one who wants to see more lockbox ships in game. :rolleyes: Like I said, we deserve better than that and need a real Trek fan to steer this game in the right direction but it might be too late.
Well, I'll not Quote everyone because this post would be miles long.
About some opinions I like to address:
My opinion about Geko and the Senior Staff
Some people raged on me because I said some things regarding the DEV team. First remember that I'm talking about the people who make decisions, like Geko and other managers. People like Bran, Taco, they do care about our opinions, but they can't make decisions or take point with or against us, we all should understand this.
Yes, I can criticize them, I have a brain, I have my experience as a gamer, there a lot more players with the same experience or even more than me. We do have ground to talk about the game development. Even without that experience, as a player and customer of Cryptic/PWE I have every right to question their decisions. Don't be robots or fanboys, just because you like to flatter them, does not mean you have the right to supress other people that have a diferent opinion.
Respect my rights as a player just like I respect yours.
So called fallacy about Player Base demands
I know that just 40% of the layer base come to the forums, even so, we represent a good portion of the crowd.
People like to discredit when someone stand up some subjects stating that the MAJOR player base support the request. Ok, so you don't agree and want real numbers proving it. Why don't you people show numbers that prove otherwise?
Even if the number of players requesting something is small, if this is a issue or a Bug to be corrected, does the entire player base need to agree? I think not.
Even so, we don't have polls that collects feedback from the players, nor in the Forum or in game.
I know that a poll system for content is just a dream, they would never let down their egos putting their decisions in check in front of the players.
KDF Ship and Faction build
You know, Cryptic is the sole guilt for the current KDF state... keeping this Red vs Blue thing even after LoR. The players dont go to the KDF because they don't feel it fun as Federation and Romulan are.
Put balance in the game and advertise the factions in the same intensity, then you can make assumptions about the factions profit or not.
You can't sell a rotten orange expecting people to buy it.
Again, the K'Vort is only one of the options... the point is: Romulans got their toys: Three Ships with 5x3 weapons, Federation got 2... KDF got... oh wait... NOTHING.
Even with all the crowd crying out loud for it.
About Dinosaurs
You really don't get the problem do you? I am not questioning IF they should be in S8 or not, I just want a explanation and justified purporse for them.
All the bizarre things in ST Universe have purpose, like Q being a teacher to Picard, The Prophets also teachers for Sisko and the Bajorans. Even Abrahan Lincoln in that TOS episode had a purpose.
Put dinosaurs, put even Werewolves if you want, but make them with a purpose that justify their presence on that scenario.
The claim that I can't compare this game with other MMOs
Why? The Blizzard one is another game with another History, sure! But they are MMOs, same type of game, with similar philosophies and project management. That's why they are classified in the same category.
-- "If we're going to be damned, let's be damned for what we really are." - Jean-Luc Picard
Just something that irks me, here: I've seen a few people complain about the KDF, and in particular, the loss of a console and cloak. All I have to say is, if those are the reasons that you play KDF, then you're doing it wrong. I played KDF for the story, and for being able to have fun destroying iconic Federation ships.
You know, I am a pretty hardcore Trekkie. I've read the Encyclopedia cover to cover, many times - two different versions, too. I love Trek. Yet I love JJ's take on it, too. Different story for a different audience, but so much fun. I also love the idea of dinosaurs keeping dinosaurs. It makes sense to me. We still use horses to this day, even though they've been functionally surpassed. I figure these V-Rexes and the like are essentially pets that have value to society.
Oh, and before I forget - the K'Vort? Really? That thing was awful onscreen, and it would be awful ingame. The Hegh'ta is essentially a K'Vort in size, without the idiotically oversized looks. And please, don't get me started on those painfully bad kitbashes from DS9 - have some class, for Q's sake!
Feel free to tear me apart - that seems to be what forum whiners are best at, anyway.
You know, Cryptic is the sole guilt for the current KDF state... keeping this Red vs Blue thing even after LoR. The players dont go to the KDF because they don't feel it fun as Federation and Romulan are.
Put balance in the game and advertise the factions in the same intensity, then you can make assumptions about the factions profit or not.
You can't sell a rotten orange expecting people to buy it.
Again, the K'Vort is only one of the options... the point is: Romulans got their toys: Three Ships with 5x3 weapons, Federation got 2... KDF got... oh wait... NOTHING.
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
Just something that irks me, here: I've seen a few people complain about the KDF, and in particular, the loss of a console and cloak. All I have to say is, if those are the reasons that you play KDF, then you're doing it wrong. I played KDF for the story, and for being able to have fun destroying iconic Federation ships.
You know, I am a pretty hardcore Trekkie. I've read the Encyclopedia cover to cover, many times - two different versions, too. I love Trek. Yet I love JJ's take on it, too. Different story for a different audience, but so much fun. I also love the idea of dinosaurs keeping dinosaurs. It makes sense to me. We still use horses to this day, even though they've been functionally surpassed. I figure these V-Rexes and the like are essentially pets that have value to society.
Oh, and before I forget - the K'Vort? Really? That thing was awful onscreen, and it would be awful ingame. The Hegh'ta is essentially a K'Vort in size, without the idiotically oversized looks. And please, don't get me started on those painfully bad kitbashes from DS9 - have some class, for Q's sake!
Feel free to tear me apart - that seems to be what forum whiners are best at, anyway.
What story? Until LoR there wasn't much story AT ALL that wasn't a Feature Season copypasta
There's still the ENT:era and D12 BoPs... or the D5 or a real D7 Battle Crusier
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
I know that just 40% of the layer base come to the forums, even so, we represent a good portion of the crowd.
People like to discredit when someone stand up some subjects stating that the MAJOR player base support the request.
Even this is wrong.
They told us at one point it is approximately 10% visit the forums and only 1 or 2% post in them.
of that 1 or 2%, opinions are split into hundreds of viewpoints.
Sorry the V-Rex is not a combat pet. if it was i might be okay. But with what we saw of the Voth we never saw a V-Rex and why would they keep a carnivore a natural enemy to them.
Sorry there needs to be a REALLY good reason for it and again any animal with lasers is a scrap a bottom of barrel move.
The KDF do need more content but sadly they have limited selection of ships.
And ugly kitbashes? Come On geko have you SEEN the Regent and Avenger. I'll take those kitbashes over those pieces of TRIBBLE. And the Galaxy thread is at about 400 pages with many solutions to fix the Galaxy. yet ignored.
Comments
I wish there was a 'Like' button for comments like this.
All of the Star Trek movies were bad. All of the Star Trek shows were bad with various good individual episodes in them. It's true that Star Trek fans are really the worst. I see Star Trek fans tear apart their own fandom than sports fans tear apart their own favorite teams. JJ Abrams made Star Trek culturally relevant again, you should be thankful. But having seen Star Trek fans hate every. single. movie. since I was a kid, you can only cry wolf so many times before I just tune it out and write it off as pointless nerd rage without any semblance of rationality or reason. It's Abrams Derangement Syndrome. Nothing more.
But Star Trek was never Oscar-winning material. It might have been revolutionary in the 1960's, but that was then. This is now. We're not kids anymore. We're grown-ups with a wide variety of cultural exposure and we can look back on Star Trek and appreciate it for what it was then.
But to try to apply what it was then to what Star Trek Online is now is really just ludicrous. Star Trek Online is for nostalgia and entertainment. If you asked 10 different people what made something 'Star Trek' you would get 10 different answers. Cryptic's staff are made up of many Star Trek fans. To think otherwise is just plain ignorant if you can't read between the lines and catch the various references in the game that only a really hardcore fan would have put in there. Seriously.
In the end, this thread is just like many other threads like it. A single Star Trek fan trying to dictate what 'real' Star Trek is using the same old tired 'No True Scotsman' argument without any grasp on reality in regards to MMO's or the video game industry in any sense of the term.
And it won't be the last.
But in my eyes, he's not a real Star Trek fan. If he was, he would've bent backwards to get every canonical ship in STO. That includes the "big B'rel", and the "ugly kitbashses".
I trust in Suricata's research, it's well thought out.
I like to know who made this horrible ship chart, so I can kick them in the keester for making up things.
The K'T'inga is not a D-7. The D-7 is a separate ship!
The Koro'tinga is not a D-6, it was originally meant to be the D-4.
The K'Tanko is not the D-4. It is a 2409 era newly designed ship.
And I don't recall Qu in the Klingon language meaning "refit" or "fleet"
the klingon faction always wants more, but really what can you do with ships that look like flying crosses. They will only be happy when they are given 1 shot 1 kill weapons on their ships.
The Romulans all I can say is since it was launched the game does not work right on my computer. Up till then I had no problems.
"i hate the idea of fighting dinos, so i'm going to say most people will hate fighting dinos too without any polled statistics lol irony since the op mentioned polls. if you even think about liking fighting dinosaurs then ur obviously an elistist. i like klingons too if u dont ur racist".
I want flying dino mounts with frikkin' plasma cannons on the head, and MOAB droppings!
That is all.
Oh you want more box ships? :rolleyes:
That being said, Geko is a an arrogant narcissist who will only ever listen to his own opinion about what should be in the game.
the kvort problem sorry but this ship is total TRIBBLE i mean look at the windows in the shows they havent changed in size ... this was really a ship where the developer of the show never really thought ... and the label K?vort wasnt given to always the same size or type of ship it always changed matoks ship i think was called a kvort but it was only brel size ...
and to call developers arogant is really shameless expescially with the explanation they dont listen to you ... i mean player often want some crazy stuff but not always the stuff they want would make the game better ... because they dont have the right perspective and dont see the bigger picture ... i dont want to say the devs are always right wit everything they do (in my eyes)
and i also think the threadstarter is a moron ...
I would like that. Maybe tribble grenades, and a tribble launcher? OH OH OH!!!!! A GIANT MUTATED CANNIBAL TRIBBLE THAT HUNGERS FOR THE FLESH OF KLINGONS!!!!!!!!!
He has a point the Kazon where essentially rednecks in constant "hillbilly chase mode" ignore all things chase target while someone plays the banjo.....
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yes there are Threads about K'Vort and Galaxy, Dinos with Laz0rs... yes at least one Galaxy Thread has over a hundred Pages...
No it is NOT the Majority because it is the same 50 Users posting OVER AND OVER again in that thread discussing and lamenting the current status with the irregular one off stray posters in between that would add maybe 100 Unique "Yes do!"s to all that...
And those same Users are raging ingame in Fleet Chats etc.
The Forums are the smallest part and hilariously one sided... most of those that are happy with it are ingame not caring about Forums at all... only those that are not happy feel the need to cry out loud...
And again you fell from fallacy to fallacy insulting the Devs because YOU 1. Feel they did wrong and 2. "OMG THAT'S NOT STAR TREK!!!111!" of which both points are nothing more than your personal little world with absolutely NO bearing to the overall status of "Not Trek"-"Trek"...
And don't get me started on your complete lack of experience and basic knowledge of economics...
You still believe "Customer is King" and that a Customer must be pleased at all cost...
That is CUTE!
The Real World says otherwise...
The Only Thing that makes a real buck are a few little things...
You don't do what the Customer wants... YOU MAKE the Customer want what you OFFER...
Then go on and fix the Price with artificial Scarcity and Planned Obsolescence, be it in form of faulty parts or simply because you didn't include all of the new stuff so you can spew out a new Ipho... Ehm I mean... "a new product" 6 months later.
And again... sure you can try and make some Polls... but as I said they are worth nothing because A) Forums are one sided as hell and
And even in this One-Sided Adventure we can't even make our minds up so the actual Number of People wanting X in a Poll will be even smaller.
Sure it may be beneficial... but we could end up a year without content because some thickheaded people brought enough brethren to kill the Poll with "First FIx all bugs before new stuff!"...
And I feel far more reassured that the Devs keep this in their hands than hand it over to the Zealots and Flagellants that make up the Star Trek Fandom and would work only to build up their tiny little version of ST regardless of Reality and anyone else...
Oh and btw. Pandas are in Lore way before that Panda Island Expansion... so please educate yourself before simply repeating and spewing Hat0r-Speech...
I think there are trek reasons. the whole team has to agree as its not 100% geko's decision, so at the end of the day you dont like it. well thats your right but that does not mean its shoved down our throats or he has an ego because he did something you did not like. a developer adding something to a game a player does not like happens in every single game ever.
as much as I enjoy the klingons and want to see them expanded, they have added a huge amount from where they were. and people are still not coming. the 'build it and they will come' is a myth that gets thrown around at every opportunity. They are building it and people are still not coming. at what point will this massive horde of players turn up to play klingons if they have no interest in them at the moment? Is it another 5 episode, another 10? 2 more ships? 5? at what point to they invest their limited resources into a faction that is apparently not growing on the hope that people will turn up?
I'd love more KDF stuff but it does not make them money (or certainly much less than comparative time spent on something else) and there is no indication its going to change.
If they spent time making a huge klingon faction, the profits will probably be small and the game will ultimately suffer as a result with less development in the future. I know KDF players dont want to hear that but they need to worry about the games overall health, even if thats at the expense of the kdf. the lesser of two evils if you will.
Apples and oranges. Different game, genre, sub model, game age. your comparsion means nothing.
You may be right but going to marketing school wont change that as you are only guessing.
Who says their customers are not satisfied? Are you basing it off your own personal opinion? a few people on the forums? have you seen every metric they have at their disposal? seen how popular or unpopular season 8 will be? the sales of KDF vs Romulans vs Fed. comparative metrics over the years?
no of course not. you are one player on the internet who thinks they have a clue about the player happiness, what is or is not canon, when you dont. and dont take that personally because none of us do. but while MMO's are shutting left right and centre and game companies are going out of business i will back anyone still standing as doing a decent job.
Regarding the KDF faction: I can give some good reasons why the supposed 'build it' part (at least for LoR) hasn't been a roaring success.
First, they timed this 'build it' phase (expanding KDF to 1-50 and the revamping of the tutorial) with the introduction of the Romulans AND another exclusive console given over to the Federation. So, the vaunted KDF cloaks became utterly, completely, and crushingly irrelevant and one of our coolest remaining exclusive consoles was peddled off. That's two less reasons to play KDF over Federation.
Secondly, the Romulans were all Cryptic was friggin talking about at the time of the LoR expansion. All the marketing was about the Romulans. The slate of KDF improvements was seemingly an afterthought.
Thirdly, the Federation/Fed-Roms present a far more balanced and effective ship lineup than the KDF/KDF-Roms, something that's immediately obvious to anyone with more than 2 neurons to rub together. The Federation still has its clear science ship edge, their escorts have always been fundamentally better than the Raptors, and the Romulans basically fill in what gaps that were left.
Fourthly, the LoR content is a pitiful excuse for 'building it'. Expansion to 1-50 is merely the first step, to be followed by OTHER steps (which we have yet to see or even hear of). KDF, again, needs more ships. Specifically, science ships and escorts. More skin customization would be nice, both character and ships. We also need an additional storyline arc to help fill in the leveling. Basically, most of a Season's worth of work. Heaven forfend should Cryptic actually devote a Season to the KLINGONS. They couldn't even bring themselves to do it with LoR, deciding instead that it was a brilliant time to introduce the Romulans, thus overshadowing said long-awaited improvements to the KDF.
I don't consider the pathetic trickle of development aimed at the KDF over a period of 2 years to be 'building it'. Especially since a lot of that was a long time ago, and a lot of BS has happened since. LoR was the first major improvement the KDF had seen in quite some time, and it wasn't enough. Everyone seems to think it was, but it wasn't.
but if you stick to the so called actual dimensions of ships. some would think a negh'var and vor'cha would turn better than they do compared to a mogai.
so what ever way you look at it there is hurdles. but it's a ship that was used a lot and used in the mirriror universe as well.
maybe a mirror universe lock box. that could be the kdf reward. similar to how you open the temporal ship. just an idea.
i'd gladly buy a k'vort if it was slightly more of an 'escort' style ship rather than a raider.
But then again, I really liked the direction Cryptic took with the LoR story and the Romulans, while many people were clearly disgusted by it. The point being - not every season can be for everyone. S8 is obviously not OP's fav., neither is mine I have to admit as I would probably max out the rep. where I need it and go back to fighting Borg or Tholians afterwards. But hey, it's ok, maybe S9 will bring something I really like. There are a lot of things to do in STO until then anyway.
That said, I think a big portion of the concerns and arguments about the dinosaurs in S8 are a direct result by how it was presented to us. At least I got that vibe. I do believe that if they made the effort to bring the dinosaurs in the storyline via some more plausible in universe explanation, through one of those nice thematic dev.blogs the outcry on the forum would be lower.
Instead they posted the infamous "I just wan't dinosaurs with frickin' lasers on their heads!" explanation, which could give out the wrong impression to people. Some of them clearly interpreted it as "I'll do what the hell I want with STO and that's it!" and now Geko is getting all the flak for that, when in fact it is the entire team that has to agree on such a large adition in STO.
Point being, they could have gone more smoothly about the issue, especially since according to some devs. that posted in the forum, they knew it's somewhat of a contraversial decision. Let's hope the PR team learns from this and does better next time.
In the end while some new unexpected things are allways ok, and all the fans have their own opinions of what's apropriate and what's not, I sincerely hope that this unorthodox addition to STO does not allow the "Since there are dinos in STO, I want a flying broomstick and a magic wand!" crowd to have their way, because things could go downhill very fast from there.
No... he's getting "flak" because he pretty much just up and said, in the P1 interview, it was all his idea and that's the way he wanted it.
Star Trek covers science and even mystic beings. There is not really a theme to all Trek villains. I was kind of shocked at first too but after some thought I am ok with dinos. And there are much stranger things in the Trek universe.
Also you could simply say Q saw a toy and manipulated to universe so it led to something like that because he thought it would be fun.
They do sometimes listen to the players. Also there is only a small part of the playerbase in the forums I would say. The galaxy was designed when the whole game was a lot different. It was still bad at the time but not that much worse than the other options. Many old ships could use some rework. I don't understand why they did not make the fleet version better but I suppose the just follow their system.
I guess they have the following problem: If they rework the galaxy, fans of other old ships will demand the same. So they would have to do a major rework of all old ships. If they just make a new galaxy people who paid money for the old one will feel cheated.
In the end, no matter what they do some people will be unhappy. But who knows maybe we will see a better galaxy at some point.
It is a catch 22 I guess. They do not want to spend a lot of money for a small population and they won't get more players unless they spend money on new content.
If they make a big KDF update the crying of the FEDs will be endless because they did not get anything. So they would have to hide the update in some other content, like lor. Being able to create a KDF char with lvl 1 as a new player is very important if you want to increase the player base in my opinion.
I am hoping that the lor update showed them how successful another faction can be. If the KDF gets a new ship and it sells well we might even get some dev attention. The problem is, if a fed ships sells like 5 times as often as a kdf one but takes the same mount of money to create, there is not much of a reason to make kdf ships.
I can not really blame them for making an economical decision. Although I do think they could make a lot more money with the KDF, if they were willing to try. The bortasqu sales were not only bad because there were few kdf players, it was simply less interesting than the oddy. The feds got a nice cruiser that trumped most of their other ships and was probably the best fed cruiser at the time. The kdf got a big space whale. Compared to the battlecruisers it was not that tempting and the console layout sucked for healing. But the low sales convinced them that there was not much money to make with the KDF I guess.
They should try a bop 3-bundle, or a new avenger like battlecruiser. I think there are quite a few ideas that would sell well.
Thats just my opinion.
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
That's it, I give up. You win the internet.
Harden up Princess
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Bortas'q was "sabotaged" in the drawing stage by the person who decided to give a turn ratio of 5.
I thought a lot why somebody would do something like that and I can think at least at three possible answers.In my opinion these are :
1.)Fear that the bortas would had make Federation players to run away from PVP if it would had been a good ship so 5 turn ratio was a assurance that it won't do much damage in PVP but it will do enough damage in PVE.(Federation players running away from FvK queue would had make them lost money )
2.)Somebody has a bad opinion about players playing kdf and wanted to play a practical joke aka designing a kdf battle cruiser with DHC and 5 turn ratio.
3.) Need of approval. If by chance a good kdf ship would be launched and it would make very good sales that would make all people that said many times that kdf is not worth building anything ( my translation of :doesn't make money) look incompetent.
In the same time not giving new good T5 ships to kdf makes money indirectly because as kdf your alternatives are to roll a new romulan char and buy again ships/gear etc or buy a lockbox ship if you intend to keep playing PVP.
That being said I will believe that new kdf ship will appear when I will see it on c-store. Anything with 5/2 weapon layout,5 tactical consoles,battlecloak, decent shield mod,decent hull,good inertia and good turn rate will sell in this moment.
I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
yea....I don't get why people think dinosaurs=child, I have a profound love in paleontology I'm currently in school for it and archaeology, and love dinosaurs myself, I love their concept, their theories, I love even more the fact that these beasts were the largest land species on earth at one point and managed to co exist in a chaotic state.
I really do find it insulting you'd call all dino lovers as an immature demographic, I can almost guarantee you everyone who loved Dino's as a kid still loves them.
First of all... Yeah... Reality is sad...
And I did not advocate for more Ignorance of said thread...
The thing I wanted to convey was, just because there are that many pages, doesn't mean that a proportionate number of Unique Users are involved as so many claim when they say "But that has SOOOO many Pages!" over and over again.
Again... sure ignoring is bad... but the problem is that people like you won't stop when the Devs say "No!" the only answer you accept is "Yes!" because you feel somehow entitled to a positive answer due to the perceived Size of your Request.
You know that this is true... the instant the Devs say a definite "No" (and I am too lazy to check if they already haven't done that) you and some others will each open a New Thread demanding it again and lamenting about how the Devs are bad and how they treat you sooo bad and so on regardless if the original thread was closed or not.
Um, no. Not sure how you jumped to that conclusion. If you listen to the Geko interview on the podcast "ugly kitbashes" and "big B'Rel" are terms he used. I guess he's the one who wants to see more lockbox ships in game. :rolleyes: Like I said, we deserve better than that and need a real Trek fan to steer this game in the right direction but it might be too late.
Well, I'll not Quote everyone because this post would be miles long.
About some opinions I like to address:
My opinion about Geko and the Senior Staff
Some people raged on me because I said some things regarding the DEV team. First remember that I'm talking about the people who make decisions, like Geko and other managers. People like Bran, Taco, they do care about our opinions, but they can't make decisions or take point with or against us, we all should understand this.
Yes, I can criticize them, I have a brain, I have my experience as a gamer, there a lot more players with the same experience or even more than me. We do have ground to talk about the game development. Even without that experience, as a player and customer of Cryptic/PWE I have every right to question their decisions. Don't be robots or fanboys, just because you like to flatter them, does not mean you have the right to supress other people that have a diferent opinion.
Respect my rights as a player just like I respect yours.
So called fallacy about Player Base demands
I know that just 40% of the layer base come to the forums, even so, we represent a good portion of the crowd.
People like to discredit when someone stand up some subjects stating that the MAJOR player base support the request. Ok, so you don't agree and want real numbers proving it. Why don't you people show numbers that prove otherwise?
Even if the number of players requesting something is small, if this is a issue or a Bug to be corrected, does the entire player base need to agree? I think not.
Even so, we don't have polls that collects feedback from the players, nor in the Forum or in game.
I know that a poll system for content is just a dream, they would never let down their egos putting their decisions in check in front of the players.
KDF Ship and Faction build
You know, Cryptic is the sole guilt for the current KDF state... keeping this Red vs Blue thing even after LoR. The players dont go to the KDF because they don't feel it fun as Federation and Romulan are.
Put balance in the game and advertise the factions in the same intensity, then you can make assumptions about the factions profit or not.
You can't sell a rotten orange expecting people to buy it.
Again, the K'Vort is only one of the options... the point is: Romulans got their toys: Three Ships with 5x3 weapons, Federation got 2... KDF got... oh wait... NOTHING.
Even with all the crowd crying out loud for it.
About Dinosaurs
You really don't get the problem do you? I am not questioning IF they should be in S8 or not, I just want a explanation and justified purporse for them.
All the bizarre things in ST Universe have purpose, like Q being a teacher to Picard, The Prophets also teachers for Sisko and the Bajorans. Even Abrahan Lincoln in that TOS episode had a purpose.
Put dinosaurs, put even Werewolves if you want, but make them with a purpose that justify their presence on that scenario.
The claim that I can't compare this game with other MMOs
Why? The Blizzard one is another game with another History, sure! But they are MMOs, same type of game, with similar philosophies and project management. That's why they are classified in the same category.
"If we're going to be damned, let's be damned for what we really are." - Jean-Luc Picard
You know, I am a pretty hardcore Trekkie. I've read the Encyclopedia cover to cover, many times - two different versions, too. I love Trek. Yet I love JJ's take on it, too. Different story for a different audience, but so much fun. I also love the idea of dinosaurs keeping dinosaurs. It makes sense to me. We still use horses to this day, even though they've been functionally surpassed. I figure these V-Rexes and the like are essentially pets that have value to society.
Oh, and before I forget - the K'Vort? Really? That thing was awful onscreen, and it would be awful ingame. The Hegh'ta is essentially a K'Vort in size, without the idiotically oversized looks. And please, don't get me started on those painfully bad kitbashes from DS9 - have some class, for Q's sake!
Feel free to tear me apart - that seems to be what forum whiners are best at, anyway.
*Insert Appropriate Linked Picture*
What story? Until LoR there wasn't much story AT ALL that wasn't a Feature Season copypasta
There's still the ENT:era and D12 BoPs... or the D5 or a real D7 Battle Crusier
Even this is wrong.
They told us at one point it is approximately 10% visit the forums and only 1 or 2% post in them.
of that 1 or 2%, opinions are split into hundreds of viewpoints.
Sorry there needs to be a REALLY good reason for it and again any animal with lasers is a scrap a bottom of barrel move.
The KDF do need more content but sadly they have limited selection of ships.
And ugly kitbashes? Come On geko have you SEEN the Regent and Avenger. I'll take those kitbashes over those pieces of TRIBBLE. And the Galaxy thread is at about 400 pages with many solutions to fix the Galaxy. yet ignored.