[*]If multiple weapons are fired, power will start to drain. However, you still have 25 unclaimed power from your buff, so that fills in. Your weapon power level wont drop below 125 until you deplete that buff. Once that happens, then power levels will drop below 125 power.
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This is absolutely not how weapon power is working. I can pop a weapon battery to get over 200 power, and with a theoretical maximum weapons drain of 64 I should never see my weapon energy dip below 125 -- but it does, albeit briefly.
To the extent that I understand it:
125 is the damage cap.
135 is the power cap.
Additional weapons energy after that helps to regen power during firing cycles, as does higher power regen.
i do the same for cannons, im not sure what everyone else's problem is, saying it doesn't work for them. the problem is its hard to boost weapons energy levels high enough without high end EPtW, but that will also skew the test with its damage bonus. no ones 'tests' showing no real difference i take to seriously. with DHCs though, due to the way they seem to return energy, it almost makes no difference if your at a minimal overcap level or not. for turrets, singles and DCs with their more beam array like fireing cycles, though 3 seconds instead of 5, it does make a difference. i see it when ever i overcap single cannon boats.
This is absolutely not how weapon power is working. I can pop a weapon battery to get over 200 power, and with a theoretical maximum weapons drain of 64 I should never see my weapon energy dip below 125 -- but it does, albeit briefly.
To the extent that I understand it:
125 is the damage cap.
135 is the power cap.
Additional weapons energy after that helps to regen power during firing cycles, as does higher power regen.
ah yes, batteries. every time i use weapons batteries in testing nothing makes sense. im pretty sure those dont work past 125 or something. similarly to BO being bugged past 125, it takes ALL your overcaped power, AND -50 starting at 125.
ah yes, batteries. every time i use weapons batteries in testing nothing makes sense. im pretty sure those dont work past 125 or something. similarly to BO being bugged past 125, it takes ALL your overcaped power, AND -50 starting at 125.
Then you would think that this would make an Engineer still useful because of EPS...
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this: American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Then you would think that this would make an Engineer still useful because of EPS...
engeis would be great if for them the effect cap was not 125/130 on everything. i haven't been harping on and on about that or anything, :rolleyes: as a way to make them just flat more powerful like they need to be.
This is absolutely not how weapon power is working. I can pop a weapon battery to get over 200 power, and with a theoretical maximum weapons drain of 64 I should never see my weapon energy dip below 125 -- but it does, albeit briefly.
To the extent that I understand it:
125 is the damage cap.
135 is the power cap.
Additional weapons energy after that helps to regen power during firing cycles, as does higher power regen.
Testing with Beams and Cannons showed different results for me. With Cannons, I hit that 135 and that's pretty much it. With Beams, I've gone to 180+ and still saw a difference. I couldn't go higher though to see if I ran into the same thing with Beams at some point that I did with Cannons at 135.
Admittedly, I didn't test it with a Weapon Battery for the Beams...which should have been obvious on my part. Hrmmm, I just never use them - so I didn't even think about them.
I know there was some recent discussion about EPS and Power Regen...and that the Overcap affected that, but testing showed the same results on Power Regen even when not Overcapped.
It gets further complicated by weapons ending up out of sync and changing the manner in which the drain, regen, return all work together...meh. I've always found Weapon Drain math to be a PITA...c'mon, in a game where you can turn fast enough to make it look like you fired the BO aft - it's all going to be so theoretical that it's going to be rough to match it up to the application.
edit: lordhavelock would probably be a good guy to hit up on it, mind you...
Testing with Beams and Cannons showed different results for me. With Cannons, I hit that 135 and that's pretty much it. With Beams, I've gone to 180+ and still saw a difference. I couldn't go higher though to see if I ran into the same thing with Beams at some point that I did with Cannons at 135.
Admittedly, I didn't test it with a Weapon Battery for the Beams...which should have been obvious on my part. Hrmmm, I just never use them - so I didn't even think about them.
I know there was some recent discussion about EPS and Power Regen...and that the Overcap affected that, but testing showed the same results on Power Regen even when not Overcapped.
It gets further complicated by weapons ending up out of sync and changing the manner in which the drain, regen, return all work together...meh. I've always found Weapon Drain math to be a PITA...c'mon, in a game where you can turn fast enough to make it look like you fired the BO aft - it's all going to be so theoretical that it's going to be rough to match it up to the application.
edit: lordhavelock would probably be a good guy to hit up on it, mind you...
I get the same results meaning significantly lower ceiling "soft cap" on dual heavies compared to beams. Even use the useless weapon eng consoles to test to "inflate" weapons power. Beams simply "soft cap" a lot higher resulting in higher sustained damage.
Mind you not complaining about this imbalance. Beams are back but might need slight down tuning.....
If multiple weapons are fired, power will start to drain. However, you still have 25 unclaimed power from your buff, so that fills in. Your weapon power level wont drop below 125 until you deplete that buff. Once that happens, then power levels will drop below 125 power.
Geko, I recently did some testing with cannons, and there was no visible benefit from buffing my 125/100 weapons power with Plasmonic Leech (+22), Weapons Battery (+75), and/or Red Matter Capacitor (+25). I don't mean to be argumentative, but it doesn't necessarily work the way you describe. Which, if that's intended, do you think this is a bug?
I ran several tests (all listed here), but for example, here are the details from one of them:
Test 5: Weapon Power Overcap - 4x DHC & 3x Turrets
Note that my ship's weapons power baseline is 125/100. DHC reduce power levels by -12, and turrets reduce power levels by -8 for each additional weapon firing. Because I had to pilot my craft to keep enemies within the DHC's firing arc, I could only take quick glances at weapons power, so I was assisted by my girlfriend in monitoring the changes. She was directed to focus on the weapon power display and call out numbers as we tested. I did have Plasmonic Leech in effect during this test.
Observation:
Power levels dropped from 125 down to 65 during each firing cycle. As above, drop did not go directly from 125 to 65, there were similar 1-3 steps that varied tremendously between the high and low with no apparent pattern. Power always returned to 125 between cycles.
Strangely, over the hundreds of firing cycles we observed, it was noticed four times that power dropped to 62.
After the first DHC, the other 3x DHC would apply -36 weapon power, with the -24 from the 3x Turrets, gives a combined -60 weapons power. 125-60=65. So this is expected. The reason for the odd drops to 62 is unknown. I wonder (theorize) if it might have something to do with a previous firing cycle overstepping into a new cycle before fully restoring power in between.
As with the other overcapping test, Leech was in use, but the +22 power it should theoretically be supplying was not visible. Neither were their noticeable differences when using a Weapons Battery or Red Matter Capacitor.
Towards this end of this test, I activated the BO Ability: Cannon Scatter Volley I. Despite spitting out additional blips of death fanned out to hit multiple targets, this had no apparent affect on power. In other words, when CSV was in use, power behaved as described above, exactly as it behaved when CSV was not active.
(I never did get around to testing Beams, all my play time has since been taken up with the CE Event. :rolleyes:)
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
I get the same results meaning significantly lower ceiling "soft cap" on dual heavies compared to beams. Even use the useless weapon eng consoles to test to "inflate" weapons power. Beams simply "soft cap" a lot higher resulting in higher sustained damage.
Mind you not complaining about this imbalance. Beams are back but might need slight down tuning.....
If one ignores drain completely, then you're looking at DHCs doing 1.74 times the damage per volley of an Array - 1.45 times the DPS. That ratio's consistent through skills, mark, rarity, consoles, and generic buffs - you get into things like BO/FAW vs. CRF/CSV, and I couldn't tell...never tested that.
4x DHCs/3 Turrets vs. 8x Beams is still a 1.03875:1 DPV ratio in favor of the Cannons. Without the option to overcap and stave off the drain, Beams would be even worse because of that loss of Weapon Power.
Course, that overcap came at a cost. I used the past tense there, because today's STO bleeds power out the wahzoo. There used to be a cost - you'd have to give up Shield/Engine/Aux power to get that overcap for the damage. Now? Hrmm, yeah.
So you've got the boats that already have more survivability, not really giving up any survivability, better able to run abilities to increase damage even more, sporting 250 arcs instead of 45 arcs, etc, etc, etc...
...lol, this is starting to look like I'm saying Beams are OP. I'm going to smoke.
engeis would be great if for them the effect cap was not 125/130 on everything. i haven't been harping on and on about that or anything, :rolleyes: as a way to make them just flat more powerful like they need to be.
So, wait, you mean EPS Power Transfer from an Engi doesn't add into Overcapping? Did not know that if thats true.
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this: American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Testing with Beams and Cannons showed different results for me. With Cannons, I hit that 135 and that's pretty much it. With Beams, I've gone to 180+ and still saw a difference. I couldn't go higher though to see if I ran into the same thing with Beams at some point that I did with Cannons at 135.
Admittedly, I didn't test it with a Weapon Battery for the Beams...which should have been obvious on my part. Hrmmm, I just never use them - so I didn't even think about them.
I know there was some recent discussion about EPS and Power Regen...and that the Overcap affected that, but testing showed the same results on Power Regen even when not Overcapped.
It gets further complicated by weapons ending up out of sync and changing the manner in which the drain, regen, return all work together...meh. I've always found Weapon Drain math to be a PITA...c'mon, in a game where you can turn fast enough to make it look like you fired the BO aft - it's all going to be so theoretical that it's going to be rough to match it up to the application.
edit: lordhavelock would probably be a good guy to hit up on it, mind you...
You are right, ive tested extensively myself too and DHC/turret build gains a tiny bit more dps (barely measurable) until like 134/135, after that the damage drops off again, its reallye erratic, almost makes no sense.
"But doesn't Cryptic tell us this isn't the case?" I'm not sure that's a sentence, so I'm not sure how to respond. But I think I understand what you are referring to.
You cannot get weapon power past 125 with batteries or powers. The power levels are pretty hard capped. That is, any power (say, a beam) that calculates damage based on your current weapon power level will never deal damage based on anything more than 125.
If you activate a buff that gives you more than 125 power, the power is still there, and you can draw from it. So, lets say:
You are at 50/125.
You activate a buff that gives you 50 power.
You will be at 100/125.
Weapons fire based on 100 weapon power.
If multiple weapons are fired, power will start to drain, and all weapons will subsequently deal less power.
However, let say:
You are at 100/125.
You activate a buff that gives you 50 power.
You will be at 125/125.
Weapons fire based on 125 weapon power.
If multiple weapons are fired, power will start to drain. However, you still have 25 unclaimed power from your buff, so that fills in. Your weapon power level wont drop below 125 until you deplete that buff. Once that happens, then power levels will drop below 125 power.
I'm pretty sure its working how its supposed to, but I haven't looked at that math in a long time. So there could be a problem, but I'm pretty sure its WAD. Haven't really thought about whether that should be changed or not.
I hope you didn't just loose an office bet, and had to post in the pvp forums. I really hope you'll be looking at some old code a few times more and share your results with us.
Hearing some more from the balance Guru himself, could really change the debates in this subsection quite a bit.
I get the same results meaning significantly lower ceiling "soft cap" on dual heavies compared to beams. Even use the useless weapon eng consoles to test to "inflate" weapons power. Beams simply "soft cap" a lot higher resulting in higher sustained damage.
Mind you not complaining about this imbalance. Beams are back but might need slight down tuning.....
js it beams, or tac + beams? *puts on mel gibson rubber mask* ENGIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES
So, wait, you mean EPS Power Transfer from an Engi doesn't add into Overcapping? Did not know that if thats true.
well, only weapon overcaping does anything. it adds to that sure. im saying eng captains should have a higher effect cap then the other 2 captains. 125 is the max effect cap, max power multiplier. 130 with certain cores. eng should have max of say 135, and with cores 140.
"But doesn't Cryptic tell us this isn't the case?" I'm not sure that's a sentence, so I'm not sure how to respond. But I think I understand what you are referring to.
You cannot get weapon power past 125 with batteries or powers. The power levels are pretty hard capped. That is, any power (say, a beam) that calculates damage based on your current weapon power level will never deal damage based on anything more than 125.
If you activate a buff that gives you more than 125 power, the power is still there, and you can draw from it. So, lets say:
You are at 50/125.
You activate a buff that gives you 50 power.
You will be at 100/125.
Weapons fire based on 100 weapon power.
If multiple weapons are fired, power will start to drain, and all weapons will subsequently deal less power.
However, let say:
You are at 100/125.
You activate a buff that gives you 50 power.
You will be at 125/125.
Weapons fire based on 125 weapon power.
If multiple weapons are fired, power will start to drain. However, you still have 25 unclaimed power from your buff, so that fills in. Your weapon power level wont drop below 125 until you deplete that buff. Once that happens, then power levels will drop below 125 power.
I'm pretty sure its working how its supposed to, but I haven't looked at that math in a long time. So there could be a problem, but I'm pretty sure its WAD. Haven't really thought about whether that should be changed or not.
I wish I could sticky just this post.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
"But doesn't Cryptic tell us this isn't the case?" I'm not sure that's a sentence, so I'm not sure how to respond. But I think I understand what you are referring to.
You cannot get weapon power past 125 with batteries or powers. The power levels are pretty hard capped. That is, any power (say, a beam) that calculates damage based on your current weapon power level will never deal damage based on anything more than 125.
If you activate a buff that gives you more than 125 power, the power is still there, and you can draw from it. So, lets say:
You are at 50/125.
You activate a buff that gives you 50 power.
You will be at 100/125.
Weapons fire based on 100 weapon power.
If multiple weapons are fired, power will start to drain, and all weapons will subsequently deal less power.
However, let say:
You are at 100/125.
You activate a buff that gives you 50 power.
You will be at 125/125.
Weapons fire based on 125 weapon power.
If multiple weapons are fired, power will start to drain. However, you still have 25 unclaimed power from your buff, so that fills in. Your weapon power level wont drop below 125 until you deplete that buff. Once that happens, then power levels will drop below 125 power.
I'm pretty sure its working how its supposed to, but I haven't looked at that math in a long time. So there could be a problem, but I'm pretty sure its WAD. Haven't really thought about whether that should be changed or not.
Im still not satisfied with his reply as he never mentioned beams behave differently then cannons in this regard thus my conclusion for now is that this was unintended behavior/side effect and was never ment to work this way. And apparently they dont know how it works themselves..
i do the same for cannons, im not sure what everyone else's problem is, saying it doesn't work for them. the problem is its hard to boost weapons energy levels high enough without high end EPtW, but that will also skew the test with its damage bonus. no ones 'tests' showing no real difference i take to seriously. with DHCs though, due to the way they seem to return energy, it almost makes no difference if your at a minimal overcap level or not. for turrets, singles and DCs with their more beam array like fireing cycles, though 3 seconds instead of 5, it does make a difference. i see it when ever i overcap single cannon boats.
i'll get back to you. ive got totally different results over the years, and its sort of been quite a wile since i really payed close attention. i cant keep strait what my last findings were for DHCs specifically lol
I asked Virusdancer about this a few weeks ago and he ran some tests, I'm not sure what thread it was I'll see if I can find it later. From my understanding DHC benefit from a little overcap, but not nearly as much as beams and don't need to be overcapped nearly as high.
If multiple weapons are fired, power will start to drain. However, you still have 25 unclaimed power from your buff, so that fills in. Your weapon power level wont drop below 125 until you deplete that buff. Once that happens, then power levels will drop below 125 power.
I'm pretty sure its working how its supposed to, but I haven't looked at that math in a long time. So there could be a problem, but I'm pretty sure its WAD. Haven't really thought about whether that should be changed or not.
This is not quite how it works, I'm afraid. You say that 'weapon power level wont drop below 125 until you deplete that [extra power]', but it does.
When you are at 125 power with 25 unclaimed, the drain takes from the 125 first, and then the 25 flows back in afterwards, at a rate determined by your ships power transfer rate. This means it takes time for overcapped power to re-assert itself. This explains why cannons have little or no benefit from overcapping (they fire before the bonus energy can flow back in), why beams benefit the most (their lengthy firing cycle allows most or all extra energy to come back before they are finished even with low transfer rate), why beam boats stacking EPS consoles are reported as stronger (4 EPS consoles will let overflow energy surge in almost instantly), and why people will say that it just plain doesn't work with beam overload (obviously if a massive drain occurs in a single tick, the system as I've described it here can do nothing about it.)
If you intended to have it working as you described it in your post, you should go back and have a look at it. I'd honestly prefer it your way, than how it is.
This is not quite how it works, I'm afraid. You say that 'weapon power level wont drop below 125 until you deplete that [extra power]', but it does.
When you are at 125 power with 25 unclaimed, the drain takes from the 125 first, and then the 25 flows back in afterwards, at a rate determined by your ships power transfer rate. This means it takes time for overcapped power to re-assert itself. This explains why cannons have little or no benefit from overcapping (they fire before the bonus energy can flow back in), why beams benefit the most (their lengthy firing cycle allows most or all extra energy to come back before they are finished even with low transfer rate), why beam boats stacking EPS consoles are reported as stronger (4 EPS consoles will let overflow energy surge in almost instantly), and why people will say that it just plain doesn't work with beam overload (obviously if a massive drain occurs in a single tick, the system as I've described it here can do nothing about it.)
If you intended to have it working as you described it in your post, you should go back and have a look at it. I'd honestly prefer it your way, than how it is.
This matches my findings.
For a simple test, equip three beams on an escort of different energy types. Stack consoles/buffs/whatever to maximum weapons power, atleast 155.
Then notice how the third energy type hits for less damage. Heck you could even do it with turrets.
This is not quite how it works, I'm afraid. You say that 'weapon power level wont drop below 125 until you deplete that [extra power]', but it does.
When you are at 125 power with 25 unclaimed, the drain takes from the 125 first, and then the 25 flows back in afterwards, at a rate determined by your ships power transfer rate. This means it takes time for overcapped power to re-assert itself. This explains why cannons have little or no benefit from overcapping (they fire before the bonus energy can flow back in), why beams benefit the most (their lengthy firing cycle allows most or all extra energy to come back before they are finished even with low transfer rate), why beam boats stacking EPS consoles are reported as stronger (4 EPS consoles will let overflow energy surge in almost instantly), and why people will say that it just plain doesn't work with beam overload (obviously if a massive drain occurs in a single tick, the system as I've described it here can do nothing about it.)
If you intended to have it working as you described it in your post, you should go back and have a look at it. I'd honestly prefer it your way, than how it is.
This is correct. From extensive experience as a Eng captain in a 7 array beam boat, you can overcap as much as you want, but when that initial weapon drain hits, it slices it off 125 no matter what you have.
THEN, it will immediately start filling back up to account for your overflow. The third somewhat and always the fourth shot will be back up to full power but the second one is where it hurts the most.
I'm not sure what the issue is here, my build is very much like you describe (EPS, EPtWIII, NI, RMC, FAWIII & FAWII) and I can do some decent damage sure, but my tac spaming CSV does way more damage, particularly because the shots aren't divided up between targets like FAW (even with an extra shot), but every enemy in the cone is hit, and bonus damage to boot. Most MMO skills that go AOE do less damage than a single target strike, CSV on the other hand does a damage boost to even a single target and is full blown AOE.
I asked Virusdancer about this a few weeks ago and he ran some tests, I'm not sure what thread it was I'll see if I can find it later. From my understanding DHC benefit from a little overcap, but not nearly as much as beams and don't need to be overcapped nearly as high.
Would one say overcapping is the repair for the poor power drain of beams then?
i'll get back to you. ive got totally different results over the years, and its sort of been quite a wile since i really payed close attention. i cant keep strait what my last findings were for DHCs specifically lol
No worries. I have issues keeping straight what I posted just last week much less months ago.
It would not surprise me if DHCs get much less a benefit from overcapping versus other weapons like beams, turrets or single cannons.
It may be a fair trade off for DHCs having such a good energy nechanic and high damage.
This is not quite how it works, I'm afraid. You say that 'weapon power level wont drop below 125 until you deplete that [extra power]', but it does.
When you are at 125 power with 25 unclaimed, the drain takes from the 125 first, and then the 25 flows back in afterwards, at a rate determined by your ships power transfer rate. This means it takes time for overcapped power to re-assert itself. This explains why cannons have little or no benefit from overcapping (they fire before the bonus energy can flow back in), why beams benefit the most (their lengthy firing cycle allows most or all extra energy to come back before they are finished even with low transfer rate), why beam boats stacking EPS consoles are reported as stronger (4 EPS consoles will let overflow energy surge in almost instantly), and why people will say that it just plain doesn't work with beam overload (obviously if a massive drain occurs in a single tick, the system as I've described it here can do nothing about it.)
If you intended to have it working as you described it in your post, you should go back and have a look at it. I'd honestly prefer it your way, than how it is.
This um...doesn't match any of my testing. 70-80 overcap, there's nothing below 125. 50-60, can run into sync issues where you lose arc and the first weapon is no longer the first so it drains as well if arc is acquired again at a specific point. At that point, yes - the 10.5 to 12.5 EPS (no consoles) takes you back to 125 in less than a second.
The thing to keep in mind about why Beams benefit the most, is that the benefit is not a boost to damage - it is a boost against the loss of damage. Those beam firing cycles create a larger loss of weapon power - takes longer to get it back - thus more damage is lost. Cannons don't lose as much, not as much is lost, thus the benefit is less. Don't lose as much, can't benefit as much...cause you're still capped at 125.
It pretty much works as Geko described it...outside of sync issues, arc issues, drains, etc, etc, etc. I run beams on 5 of my 9 guys. They all work along the lines of what Geko said.
Would one say overcapping is the repair for the poor power drain of beams then?
It provides an opportunity cost for players to offset some of the loss of damage. That opportunity cost is not what it was, the game bleeds power these days - but that would appear to be the design intent.
If you're overcapping, you're giving up power from somewhere else. I'll be lazy and quote Bort talking about Tyken's...heh...
Here's a quick run-down of how much of an impact losing 10 power from all subsystems can have on a particular ship (player or critter):
WEAPONS: -20% to all non-base weapon damage.
SHIELDS: -40% shield regeneration, and about -3% shield DR.
ENGINES: -20% base speed (this can also reduce Defense value, if the player's speed is dropped enough)
AUX: Decreases science potency (varying amounts), stealth values, perception values and hangar recharge timers
So while overcapping isn't taking 10 from every system (and obviously not from Weapons), taking 10 from any of the other three to put into weapons to overcap in the hopes of staving off the drain...is an opportunity cost.
You're making a sacrifice of something for something to avoid something...or you're not, you're not overcapping - thus instead sacrificing damage for one of the others - so it's still an opportunity cost.
But again, the game bleeds power now...so it's not the opportunity cost it once was.
Comments
So why cant you d the same for cannons then?
This is absolutely not how weapon power is working. I can pop a weapon battery to get over 200 power, and with a theoretical maximum weapons drain of 64 I should never see my weapon energy dip below 125 -- but it does, albeit briefly.
To the extent that I understand it:
125 is the damage cap.
135 is the power cap.
Additional weapons energy after that helps to regen power during firing cycles, as does higher power regen.
i do the same for cannons, im not sure what everyone else's problem is, saying it doesn't work for them. the problem is its hard to boost weapons energy levels high enough without high end EPtW, but that will also skew the test with its damage bonus. no ones 'tests' showing no real difference i take to seriously. with DHCs though, due to the way they seem to return energy, it almost makes no difference if your at a minimal overcap level or not. for turrets, singles and DCs with their more beam array like fireing cycles, though 3 seconds instead of 5, it does make a difference. i see it when ever i overcap single cannon boats.
ah yes, batteries. every time i use weapons batteries in testing nothing makes sense. im pretty sure those dont work past 125 or something. similarly to BO being bugged past 125, it takes ALL your overcaped power, AND -50 starting at 125.
Then you would think that this would make an Engineer still useful because of EPS...
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Very interesting... they seem to do something past 125 because there's less drain with a weapon battery applied.
Does anyone want to do the same test without using batteries? If not, I will but I probably won't be able to get around to it until tomorrow.
engeis would be great if for them the effect cap was not 125/130 on everything. i haven't been harping on and on about that or anything, :rolleyes: as a way to make them just flat more powerful like they need to be.
Testing with Beams and Cannons showed different results for me. With Cannons, I hit that 135 and that's pretty much it. With Beams, I've gone to 180+ and still saw a difference. I couldn't go higher though to see if I ran into the same thing with Beams at some point that I did with Cannons at 135.
Admittedly, I didn't test it with a Weapon Battery for the Beams...which should have been obvious on my part. Hrmmm, I just never use them - so I didn't even think about them.
I know there was some recent discussion about EPS and Power Regen...and that the Overcap affected that, but testing showed the same results on Power Regen even when not Overcapped.
It gets further complicated by weapons ending up out of sync and changing the manner in which the drain, regen, return all work together...meh. I've always found Weapon Drain math to be a PITA...c'mon, in a game where you can turn fast enough to make it look like you fired the BO aft - it's all going to be so theoretical that it's going to be rough to match it up to the application.
edit: lordhavelock would probably be a good guy to hit up on it, mind you...
I get the same results meaning significantly lower ceiling "soft cap" on dual heavies compared to beams. Even use the useless weapon eng consoles to test to "inflate" weapons power. Beams simply "soft cap" a lot higher resulting in higher sustained damage.
Mind you not complaining about this imbalance. Beams are back but might need slight down tuning.....
I ran several tests (all listed here), but for example, here are the details from one of them:
(I never did get around to testing Beams, all my play time has since been taken up with the CE Event. :rolleyes:)
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
If one ignores drain completely, then you're looking at DHCs doing 1.74 times the damage per volley of an Array - 1.45 times the DPS. That ratio's consistent through skills, mark, rarity, consoles, and generic buffs - you get into things like BO/FAW vs. CRF/CSV, and I couldn't tell...never tested that.
4x DHCs/3 Turrets vs. 8x Beams is still a 1.03875:1 DPV ratio in favor of the Cannons. Without the option to overcap and stave off the drain, Beams would be even worse because of that loss of Weapon Power.
Course, that overcap came at a cost. I used the past tense there, because today's STO bleeds power out the wahzoo. There used to be a cost - you'd have to give up Shield/Engine/Aux power to get that overcap for the damage. Now? Hrmm, yeah.
So you've got the boats that already have more survivability, not really giving up any survivability, better able to run abilities to increase damage even more, sporting 250 arcs instead of 45 arcs, etc, etc, etc...
...lol, this is starting to look like I'm saying Beams are OP. I'm going to smoke.
So, wait, you mean EPS Power Transfer from an Engi doesn't add into Overcapping?
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
You are right, ive tested extensively myself too and DHC/turret build gains a tiny bit more dps (barely measurable) until like 134/135, after that the damage drops off again, its reallye erratic, almost makes no sense.
Beams.. well we all know that already.
Working as intended?
Hearing some more from the balance Guru himself, could really change the debates in this subsection quite a bit.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
js it beams, or tac + beams? *puts on mel gibson rubber mask* ENGIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
well, only weapon overcaping does anything. it adds to that sure. im saying eng captains should have a higher effect cap then the other 2 captains. 125 is the max effect cap, max power multiplier. 130 with certain cores. eng should have max of say 135, and with cores 140.
I wish I could sticky just this post.
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Makes sense to me. I like it this way.
R.I.P
single cannons, dual cannons, dhcs, turrets,...
but only beams are affected.
So overcapping is pointless for DHCs?
R.I.P
i'll get back to you. ive got totally different results over the years, and its sort of been quite a wile since i really payed close attention. i cant keep strait what my last findings were for DHCs specifically lol
I asked Virusdancer about this a few weeks ago and he ran some tests, I'm not sure what thread it was I'll see if I can find it later. From my understanding DHC benefit from a little overcap, but not nearly as much as beams and don't need to be overcapped nearly as high.
This is not quite how it works, I'm afraid. You say that 'weapon power level wont drop below 125 until you deplete that [extra power]', but it does.
When you are at 125 power with 25 unclaimed, the drain takes from the 125 first, and then the 25 flows back in afterwards, at a rate determined by your ships power transfer rate. This means it takes time for overcapped power to re-assert itself. This explains why cannons have little or no benefit from overcapping (they fire before the bonus energy can flow back in), why beams benefit the most (their lengthy firing cycle allows most or all extra energy to come back before they are finished even with low transfer rate), why beam boats stacking EPS consoles are reported as stronger (4 EPS consoles will let overflow energy surge in almost instantly), and why people will say that it just plain doesn't work with beam overload (obviously if a massive drain occurs in a single tick, the system as I've described it here can do nothing about it.)
If you intended to have it working as you described it in your post, you should go back and have a look at it. I'd honestly prefer it your way, than how it is.
This matches my findings.
For a simple test, equip three beams on an escort of different energy types. Stack consoles/buffs/whatever to maximum weapons power, atleast 155.
Then notice how the third energy type hits for less damage. Heck you could even do it with turrets.
This is correct. From extensive experience as a Eng captain in a 7 array beam boat, you can overcap as much as you want, but when that initial weapon drain hits, it slices it off 125 no matter what you have.
THEN, it will immediately start filling back up to account for your overflow. The third somewhat and always the fourth shot will be back up to full power but the second one is where it hurts the most.
I'm not sure what the issue is here, my build is very much like you describe (EPS, EPtWIII, NI, RMC, FAWIII & FAWII) and I can do some decent damage sure, but my tac spaming CSV does way more damage, particularly because the shots aren't divided up between targets like FAW (even with an extra shot), but every enemy in the cone is hit, and bonus damage to boot. Most MMO skills that go AOE do less damage than a single target strike, CSV on the other hand does a damage boost to even a single target and is full blown AOE.
Would one say overcapping is the repair for the poor power drain of beams then?
R.I.P
No worries. I have issues keeping straight what I posted just last week much less months ago.
It would not surprise me if DHCs get much less a benefit from overcapping versus other weapons like beams, turrets or single cannons.
It may be a fair trade off for DHCs having such a good energy nechanic and high damage.
R.I.P
This um...doesn't match any of my testing. 70-80 overcap, there's nothing below 125. 50-60, can run into sync issues where you lose arc and the first weapon is no longer the first so it drains as well if arc is acquired again at a specific point. At that point, yes - the 10.5 to 12.5 EPS (no consoles) takes you back to 125 in less than a second.
The thing to keep in mind about why Beams benefit the most, is that the benefit is not a boost to damage - it is a boost against the loss of damage. Those beam firing cycles create a larger loss of weapon power - takes longer to get it back - thus more damage is lost. Cannons don't lose as much, not as much is lost, thus the benefit is less. Don't lose as much, can't benefit as much...cause you're still capped at 125.
It pretty much works as Geko described it...outside of sync issues, arc issues, drains, etc, etc, etc. I run beams on 5 of my 9 guys. They all work along the lines of what Geko said.
It provides an opportunity cost for players to offset some of the loss of damage. That opportunity cost is not what it was, the game bleeds power these days - but that would appear to be the design intent.
If you're overcapping, you're giving up power from somewhere else. I'll be lazy and quote Bort talking about Tyken's...heh...
So while overcapping isn't taking 10 from every system (and obviously not from Weapons), taking 10 from any of the other three to put into weapons to overcap in the hopes of staving off the drain...is an opportunity cost.
You're making a sacrifice of something for something to avoid something...or you're not, you're not overcapping - thus instead sacrificing damage for one of the others - so it's still an opportunity cost.
But again, the game bleeds power now...so it's not the opportunity cost it once was.