I thought they said something about that in the general discussion area once. They said it gives the opposite of diminishing returns and that they were looking at it to give it diminishing returns the other way too. I could totally be wrong, and I don't remember the thread though, but I'm pretty sure they were responding to a question you made.
Assuming that, with 4 apb3 stacked and one copy of apb1 and apb2 that'd be -270 magnitude res, +120 with 4 purple neutroniums, you end in -150 -> -56% damage resistance... That with 4 neutroniums and not counting in scans or any other debuff... Then it comes that any lost beam from faw pulverizates your ship in a blink of an eye :rolleyes:
Assuming that, with 4 apb3 stacked and one copy of apb1 and apb2 that'd be -270 magnitude res, +120 with 4 purple neutroniums, you end in -150 -> -56% damage resistance... That with 4 neutroniums and not counting in scans or any other debuff... Then it comes that any lost beam from faw pulverizates your ship in a blink of an eye :rolleyes:
According to what Hawk said though, resistance resists change to resistance. However, they made a correction to avoid negative resistance buffing the change of resistance (the double disruptor stuff).
So technically, unless a person had 0 resistance to begin with or are reduced to 0 resistance, they should never actually be debuffed by the amount on the tooltip. Hrmm, can do a quick test of that.
In this corner in the blue trunks, we have Zark - that pesky nub Fed Sci. In this corner in the...er...blue trunks, we have Boreas - that not at pesky nub Fed Eng.
Boreas Kinetic DR: 31.1% Rare Neut Mk XI +17.5
Jem Shields Mk XI +10
Accolade +2
Threat Control +8.4
Armor Reinforcements +8.1 DR = (3*(0.25-((75/(150+46))^2)))) = 31.07...31.1% Energy DR: 28.5% Rare Neut Mk XI +17.5
Accolade +2
Threat Control +8.4
Hull Plating +12.6 DR = (3*(0.25-((75/(150+40.5))^2)))) = 28.49...28.5%
So what does Boreas end up at after Zark scans him?
Kinetic: -1.3%
Energy: -6.3%
So how did we get from 31.1% to -1.3% and 28.5% to -6.3%? It's not a simple case of subtracting the to before doing the DR calc - that goes nowhere fast, eh?
How about this...
DR = (3*(0.25-((75/(150+69.6))^2)))) = 40%
But that would give us -8.9% and -11.5%...which we don't have. So let's apply some resistance to it?
So how do we get the 69.6 to 49? It's ~70%. But our Kinetic's doing 31.1%, leaving 68.9% and not 70% of the amount that should be applied. What if we take the accolade out? 30.2% instead of 31.1%. That would get us close, eh?
What if we try that with the Energy too? 27.5% instead of 28.5%. We're trying to get to 6.3+28.5= 34.8% to get the -6.3%. Quick working that backward...we'd need to get the 69.6 to ~54.9 or 78.87% or so. Nope, that's not it. It's not the accolade, cause we're not looking at 21.1%...it's 27.5%. So nope, that's not it.
Boreas
Kinetic DR: 31.1% (46 DRR)
Energy DR: 28.5% (40.5 DRR)
Energy DR2: 27.5% (38.5 DRR - no Accolade)
After Scan
KDR: -1.3%
EDR: -6.3%
EDR2: -8.2%
After APB1
KDR: 21.6%
EDR: 18.3%
EDR2: 17.0%
After Scan then APB1
KDR: -10%
EDR: -15.6%
EDR2: -17.8%
After APB1 then Scan
KDR: -10%
EDR: -15.6%
EDR2: -17.8%
So we can see that the Scan does not improve the APB1 or vice versa - order doesn't matter in that sense. We can also see there are diminishing returns, because Scan+APB1 is not the same as Scan minus the debuff from APB1 as well.
-1.3% (31.1% vs. -6.3% (28.5%)...a difference of 2.6% becomes a difference of 5%.
Okay, I copypasted all that sorcery into a txt document, placed it in the game folder, loaded with the proper chat command, and the cheese was still there. Did I do something wrong?
Okay, I copypasted all that sorcery into a txt document, placed it in the game folder, loaded with the proper chat command, and the cheese was still there. Did I do something wrong?
Did you note your KDR/EDR at base and with each successive stacked debuff? Some of the math guys out there might be able to figure out what's going on with more raw data...a pattern might emerge to reveal Cryptic's secrets.
Did you note your KDR/EDR at base and with each successive stacked debuff? Some of the math guys out there might be able to figure out what's going on with more raw data...a pattern might emerge to reveal Cryptic's secrets.
I coudnt even count how many debuffs I had stacked. First time, they wiped out our entire team (and it was a good team, a quite tanky wells myself) in about 5 seconds. No time. Then we react, we hold like 10 seconds this time. All dead again. 3rd respawn (10-0, less than a minute), I try to get some distance and count how many betas I have, till two beam gets me out of TT and tears my ship appart... Shield, hull... 15-0.
That was some days ago, I pvpeed a lot since then and never encountered them myself again, but others did like I read in Opvp. Wish I could have checked my defensive stats, although I know those aren't real kdr/edr values, at least, yeah, to have a little more knowledge of how cheesed I was being...
Boreas
Kinetic DR: 31.1% (46 DRR)
Energy DR: 28.5% (40.5 DRR)
Energy DR2: 27.5% (38.5 DRR - no Accolade)
After Scan
KDR: -1.3%
EDR: -6.3%
EDR2: -8.2%
After APB1
KDR: 21.6%
EDR: 18.3%
EDR2: 17.0%
After Scan then APB1
KDR: -10%
EDR: -15.6%
EDR2: -17.8%
After APB1 then Scan
KDR: -10%
EDR: -15.6%
EDR2: -17.8%
So we can see that the Scan does not improve the APB1 or vice versa - order doesn't matter in that sense. We can also see there are diminishing returns, because Scan+APB1 is not the same as Scan minus the debuff from APB1 as well.
Now let's add a new toon - Betty (randomly named Fed Human). Don't need to track KDR/EDR separately, since Betty's sporting 0% for both!
Betty
DR: 0%
After Scan
DR: -66.7%
After APB1
DR: -19.9%
After Scan and APB1
DR: -83.8%
And well then...color me surprised. Hrmmm, no wonder I was getting nowhere...meh.
I found myself today with something similar. Just one carrier this time, same pets (elite thiolian mesh) some faw, but primarily escorts. No objections. I took the time this time to check my edr, it was -54% (from 29% I have in my ship), fast killed didnt count how many betas I had so useless data I guess.
I found myself today with something similar. Just one carrier this time, same pets (elite thiolian mesh) some faw, but primarily escorts. No objections. I took the time this time to check my edr, it was -54% (from 29% I have in my ship), fast killed didnt count how many betas I had so useless data I guess.
Oh, I've definitely got a different view on the potential that comes from the stacked debuffs - seeing that -DRR doesn't play by the same rules as +DRR. With all the +Bleed, stack up that -DRR on the target and pop them with peashooters...
...have to wonder if that's something the PvP folks "are learning" from the PvE folks.
KDR 31.1% went to -1.3% with Scan.
KDR 0.0% went to -66.7% with Scan.
That's ~98.5% reduction. Doesn't make sense...meh.
Hrmmm, let me buff up that -1.3% guy before the Scan and see what happens.
wow those numbers are crazy. Maybe you should make a whole new thread on this. I knew spamming APB was strong...but.....wow. It kinda makes a science officer in a recluse look almost OP. Good thing TT clears it, but seriously...
wow those numbers are crazy. Maybe you should make a whole new thread on this. I knew spamming APB was strong...but.....wow. It kinda makes a science officer in a recluse look almost OP. Good thing TT clears it, but seriously...
Yes but the problem comes when you're out of tt... And many builds can't have two copies of tt. Or then subnukes. I don't know, so many poweful resistance debuffs, so much spam of them. It's way worse than power syphon drones from the kdf. Man, I hate carriers so much...
All of these things that stack are a real problem imo. I'm beginning to think that the cool down for the recluse pets BO powers, specifically ApB is effed up or just plain too short. With my Engie's recluse I've seen as many as six stacked on a target with the advanced weavers. So with four weavers out you can basically keep it stacked on your target indefinitely.
I'm also weary of the romulan plasma proc stacking, along with [Pla] embassy consoles. Hulls just melt so fast it's insane.
As far as the cap goes, +75% is the same as saying it takes 4 times longer to kill someone. But when you kill someone 4 time faster it is 400%. So I would think the - cap is -400%
Now for the math I just put all the formulas into one for easy.
Just wanted to jump in and note how effective my PvE-built FAHCR build has been in PUG PvP Arena matches. I'm typically racking up 1-1.5M damage and 12-15 victories against zero losses. Everyone expects me to be the fat, slow, toothless tank only to find out (to their dismay) that I'm actually the biggest gun in the room.
And by then it's too late...we're up 8, 9 or 10-0, at which some of the more frustrated players starting crying "HAX" or "Premade!" On the contrary, I'm usually alone in a group of strangers...only Iskandus has been known to PUG-up with me regularly, and that's when our time zones sync up. Otherwise, I just queue up myself and see what happens.
As for strategy, there really is none. I fly straight to the center of the map, orbit while stacking APA3/APO1/FOMM3/EPtW1/DEM3/BFAW2, and just kill anything that comes into range. Works great so far...
Just wanted to jump in and note how effective my PvE-built FAHCR build has been in PUG PvP Arena matches. I'm typically racking up 1-1.5M damage and 12-15 victories against zero losses. Everyone expects me to be the fat, slow, toothless tank only to find out (to their dismay) that I'm actually the biggest gun in the room.
And by then it's too late...we're up 8, 9 or 10-0, at which some of the more frustrated players starting crying "HAX" or "Premade!" On the contrary, I'm usually alone in a group of strangers...only Iskandus has been known to PUG-up with me regularly, and that's when our time zones sync up. Otherwise, I just queue up myself and see what happens.
As for strategy, there really is none. I fly straight to the center of the map, orbit while stacking APA3/APO1/FOMM3/EPtW1/DEM3/BFAW2, and just kill anything that comes into range. Works great so far...
RCK
anything can work in pugs, no big deal. And damage count is not important in this kind of builds, u can do 3millons of damage and don't get a single kill if the other team is healing properly.
Damage charts in pvp are irrelevant, i found them usefull for check misses and critical hits, or check the enemy build, but nothing more.
As for strategy, there really is none. I fly straight to the center of the map, orbit while stacking APA3/APO1/FOMM3/EPtW1/DEM3/BFAW2, and just kill anything that comes into range.
That is the thing with those builds, that is all u can do. You can fly your ship for 1 year and u won't improve a bit, besides keep your build up-to-date with the new stuff that cryptic release.
Eventualy if u want to go futher in pvp, u will have to switch to another type of ship and build. There u will find that u will need a lot of new things in order to sucess.
I fly my bfaw dkora in pvp when i'm pugging, but after a while is boring as hell. I prefer the escort all the way.
anything can work in pugs, no big deal. And damage count is not important in this kind of builds, u can do 3millons of damage and don't get a single kill if the other team is healing properly.
Damage charts in pvp are irrelevant, i found them usefull for check misses and critical hits, or check the enemy build, but nothing more.
That is the thing with those builds, that is all u can do. You can fly your ship for 1 year and u won't improve a bit, besides keep your build up-to-date with the new stuff that cryptic release.
Eventualy if u want to go futher in pvp, u will have to switch to another type of ship and build. There u will find that u will need a lot of new things in order to sucess.
I fly my bfaw dkora in pvp when i'm pugging, but after a while is boring as hell. I prefer the escort all the way.
Spot on, people can stagnate if they keep falling back to their comfort build which will get nerfed or have their weaknesses exposed.
If you try different ships/ weapons and even factions and careers you will go much further in PVP. Noone said it was going to be easy but it will that much more fulfilling if you put that much effort in.
At the top fleets everyone has a toon in both Science and Tactical at least to see both career's strengths and weaknesses.
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Just wanted to jump in and note how effective my PvE-built FAHCR build has been in PUG PvP Arena matches. I'm typically racking up 1-1.5M damage and 12-15 victories against zero losses. Everyone expects me to be the fat, slow, toothless tank only to find out (to their dismay) that I'm actually the biggest gun in the room.
And by then it's too late...we're up 8, 9 or 10-0, at which some of the more frustrated players starting crying "HAX" or "Premade!" On the contrary, I'm usually alone in a group of strangers...only Iskandus has been known to PUG-up with me regularly, and that's when our time zones sync up. Otherwise, I just queue up myself and see what happens.
As for strategy, there really is none. I fly straight to the center of the map, orbit while stacking APA3/APO1/FOMM3/EPtW1/DEM3/BFAW2, and just kill anything that comes into range. Works great so far...
RCK
Not that I don't believe you, I've seen some great fed cruisers in pvp, but you always have to question DPS and kill numbers while using BFAW. Take a FAW cruiser and a T'Varo on the same team; the cruiser is spamming FAW and racking up p lots of damage points but depending on how many targets are in the area, it may not be doing any meaningful damage. Then take the T'varo decloaking alpha strike on one target. The T'varo did all the meaningful damage and gets a kill, but so does the FAW cruiser too. The T'varo did all the work and the cruiser got crazy DPS numbers and a kill but did no actual help in killing the target.
I'm not saying this is you at all, but one always has to question it.
Not that I don't believe you, I've seen some great fed cruisers in pvp, but you always have to question DPS and kill numbers while using BFAW. Take a FAW cruiser and a T'Varo on the same team; the cruiser is spamming FAW and racking up p lots of damage points but depending on how many targets are in the area, it may not be doing any meaningful damage. Then take the T'varo decloaking alpha strike on one target. The T'varo did all the meaningful damage and gets a kill, but so does the FAW cruiser too. The T'varo did all the work and the cruiser got crazy DPS numbers and a kill but did no actual help in killing the target.
I'm not saying this is you at all, but one always has to question it.
Scoreboard damage
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
It might be worth mentioning that the builds that were showcased by the 11k people work best in a team where 1 FAW just racks up meaningless damage on a board 5 of them doing it racks up a lot of pressure damage. They're builds and style is a team effort not a 1 man thing. I would never have thought that would need to be pointed out to anyone in the PvP community.
It might be worth mentioning that the builds that were showcased by the 11k people work best in a team where 1 FAW just racks up meaningless damage on a board 5 of them doing it racks up a lot of pressure damage. They're builds and style is a team effort not a 1 man thing. I would never have thought that would need to be pointed out to anyone in the PvP community.
PVP is at is best a team effort gameplay... Where one of those teams can have 4 hangars spaming those waves of little faws and stackeable apb3 pets, and 3 faw cruisers/simitars cleaning the oposite team. What its being pointed here is the need to fix certaing spameable pets having an ability more powerful than its player ability counterpart (as Power Syphon Drones vs Energy Syphon, or APB pets vs player's APB). If its the carrier nature spam pets with powerful abilities, then ok, but for the sake of ballance, those pets abilities shouldnt be n any case as powerful at its single player ability pair, much less even more powerful...
As far as the cap goes, +75% is the same as saying it takes 4 times longer to kill someone. But when you kill someone 4 time faster it is 400%. So I would think the - cap is -400%
Now for the math I just put all the formulas into one for easy.
Note the "Total+MAG? or "Total-MAG" is whatever the tool tip say divided by 100. So if Sensor Scan is 70 put .70 into the formula.
queue, the one that bareel gives credit to at times much in the way I give bareel credit!
Alas, that formula doesn't result in expected results.
46 DRR gives 30.66% DR instead of 31.07% DR...
A -20 DRR debuff gives 16.9% DR instead of 21.6% DR...
But it did get me looking at the raw formulas instead of the clean formula, which led to some interesting things.
Energy RDDRRN = 0.5995
Energy TDR = -14.4% Listed -15.6%
No-Accolade Energy RDDRRN = 0.6078
No-Accolade Energy TDR = -16.6% Listed -17.8%
With the Sensor Scan, each listed value is off by 0.7%...
With both, each listed value is off by 1.2%...
It's odd that it matches when base DRR/DR is 0 and you apply the various debuffs. It's odd that it matches with the debuff of 20. Yet, with the Scan and the combination of the Scan/APB1 it's off by that small amount.
A problem with the formula? A tooltip issue? If it was either, why does it work fine when it does?
Oh well, I need to go to the store for more caffeine...
edit: Wasn't thinking - good caffeine (found some more before I left)...rounding. It's probably not actually -69.6 for the Scan. That's a rounded number. The actual number probably results in the listed values.
edit2: So then, somebody took...
DR = -((1/(1+(1/(1-DamRes%Max))-1-(((1/(1- DamRes%Max))-1)/(1+(MAG/((1/(1- DamRes%Max))-1))+((MAG/((1/(1- DamRes%Max))-1))^2)))))-1)
...and do the same? So folks can just plug in that total positive Damage Resistance Rating and the total negative Damage Resistance Rating? I'm going for that caffeine now.
edit3: Though, if it were a rounding thing - wouldn't the 0 DR then Debuff have the same issue? Meh, I'm going to enjoy some caffeine and not think for a bit...lalalala.
But in knowing how that negative DR works - looking at stacking debuffs - adding in some of that nifty new increased bleed...it would definitely change things, eh?
edit4: Needed to note, the DRRP/DRRN numbers...divide by 100 (taking say 17.5 to 0.175) before entering them in the formulas.
Speaking of fun stuff regarding builds like this, anybody able to confirm/deny that the APB debuff applies to the hit that applies regardless of whether TT clears it after it has been applied?
Basically, TT or not...all APB shots will hit as if APB was in place for the person with APB up?
Also, does anybody know if the TT clear is like a tick sort of thing in that it clears the debuffs at a tiny interval - which in turn would leave room for the possibility of multiple debuffs to exist for shots that land between that interval?
Not that I don't believe you, I've seen some great fed cruisers in pvp, but you always have to question DPS and kill numbers while using BFAW. Take a FAW cruiser and a T'Varo on the same team; the cruiser is spamming FAW and racking up p lots of damage points but depending on how many targets are in the area, it may not be doing any meaningful damage. Then take the T'varo decloaking alpha strike on one target. The T'varo did all the meaningful damage and gets a kill, but so does the FAW cruiser too. The T'varo did all the work and the cruiser got crazy DPS numbers and a kill but did no actual help in killing the target.
I'm not saying this is you at all, but one always has to question it.
I understand your skepticism. But as anyone who has flown with me will attest, I'm doing a lot more than just spamming. Sure, I pop my share of BFAW, but I'm also focus firing on individual targets and using my stacked buffs to neutralize their defenses and penetrate their shields. That, plus I like to maneuver a lot to get the better shot on a weak facing. There's no more disturbing sight than an FAHCR pumping out 12K+ DPS and hunting you down when you try to escape the fire zone.
And while the occasional fluke "mop-up" kill's do occur, they don't explain my average 10-15 kills per match. I'm queuing up more now than before, so hopefully we'll all run into each other at some point and you can judge for yourselves. But I am definitely not the typical BFAW spam boat...
RCK - a.k.a. "Jacob Lightener, Captain of the Purple Avenger 5"
I understand your skepticism. But as anyone who has flown with me will attest, I'm doing a lot more than just spamming. "
you are doing the same that any other bfaw aux2bat crusier does, the only thing u can do, pick a target and smash your spacebar (or whatever other bind you are using). While bfaw is active u are spreading the damage across the board, and while is on coldown you are putting all your damage in 1 target. U may save your apa and tactical feet for use it when u see fit, but thats all.
Your build and your playstyle is not special, and no new in pvp. They are talking about it now cause there is couple of guys playing with this builds in group and they are effective with them, but again...is not new, dentals are been using this for a while.
Speaking of fun stuff regarding builds like this, anybody able to confirm/deny that the APB debuff applies to the hit that applies regardless of whether TT clears it after it has been applied?
Basically, TT or not...all APB shots will hit as if APB was in place for the person with APB up?
Also, does anybody know if the TT clear is like a tick sort of thing in that it clears the debuffs at a tiny interval - which in turn would leave room for the possibility of multiple debuffs to exist for shots that land between that interval?
I also tested this and sadly the first shot doesn't use the APB debuff. and the APB is cleared right away so none of the shots used the debuff.
I also tested this and sadly the first shot doesn't use the APB debuff. and the APB is cleared right away so none of the shots used the debuff.
Meh, that's both good news and bad news...so to speak. I was wondering, since it appears the Beach Ball applies its debuff to the Beach Ball. Damage is generally too high without it.
Comments
According to what Hawk said though, resistance resists change to resistance. However, they made a correction to avoid negative resistance buffing the change of resistance (the double disruptor stuff).
So technically, unless a person had 0 resistance to begin with or are reduced to 0 resistance, they should never actually be debuffed by the amount on the tooltip. Hrmm, can do a quick test of that.
In this corner in the blue trunks, we have Zark - that pesky nub Fed Sci. In this corner in the...er...blue trunks, we have Boreas - that not at pesky nub Fed Eng.
Boreas
Kinetic DR: 31.1%
Rare Neut Mk XI +17.5
Jem Shields Mk XI +10
Accolade +2
Threat Control +8.4
Armor Reinforcements +8.1
DR = (3*(0.25-((75/(150+46))^2)))) = 31.07...31.1%
Energy DR: 28.5%
Rare Neut Mk XI +17.5
Accolade +2
Threat Control +8.4
Hull Plating +12.6
DR = (3*(0.25-((75/(150+40.5))^2)))) = 28.49...28.5%
Zark
Sensor Scan 3 @130 Aux: -69.6 DRR
So what does Boreas end up at after Zark scans him?
Kinetic: -1.3%
Energy: -6.3%
So how did we get from 31.1% to -1.3% and 28.5% to -6.3%? It's not a simple case of subtracting the to before doing the DR calc - that goes nowhere fast, eh?
How about this...
DR = (3*(0.25-((75/(150+69.6))^2)))) = 40%
But that would give us -8.9% and -11.5%...which we don't have. So let's apply some resistance to it?
Kinetic: 0.689
DR = (3*(0.25-((75/(150+69.6))^2)))) = 40% * 0.689 = 27.6%
31.1 - 27.6 = 3.5%
Energy: 0.715
DR = (3*(0.25-((75/(150+69.6))^2)))) = 40% * 0.715 = 28.6%
28.5 - 28.6 = -0.1%
That's wrong. Hrmm, how about this way?
Kinetic: 0.689
69.6 * 0.689 = 47.9544
DR = (3*(0.25-((75/(150+47.9544))^2)))) = 31.9%
31.1 - 31.9 = -0.6%
Energy: 0.715
69.6 * 0.715 = 49.764
DR = (3*(0.25-((75/(150+49.764))^2)))) = 32.7%
31.1 - 32.7 = -1.6%
That's wrong too. Maybe if we try to work it backward, eh? Just looking at the Kinetic.
-1.3%, 31.1%, 32.4% is what we would need to subtract from the 31.1% to get -1.3%...
0.324 = (3*(0.25-((75/(150+DRR))^2))))
0.324/3 = (0.25-((75/(150+DRR))^2)))
0.108 = (0.25-((75/(150+DRR))^2)))
((75/(150+DRR))^2)) = 0.25 - 0.108
((75/(150+DRR))^2)) = 0.142
(75/(150+DRR) = 0.142^.5
(75/(150+DRR) = 0.37682887362833543888925222595118
75 = 0.37682887362833543888925222595118*(150+DRR)
75/0.37682887362833543888925222595118 = 150+DRR
199.02933466285322476545011934041 = 150+DRR
199.02933466285322476545011934041 - 150 = DRR
49.029334662853224765450119340414 = DRR
So how do we get the 69.6 to 49? It's ~70%. But our Kinetic's doing 31.1%, leaving 68.9% and not 70% of the amount that should be applied. What if we take the accolade out? 30.2% instead of 31.1%. That would get us close, eh?
What if we try that with the Energy too? 27.5% instead of 28.5%. We're trying to get to 6.3+28.5= 34.8% to get the -6.3%. Quick working that backward...we'd need to get the 69.6 to ~54.9 or 78.87% or so. Nope, that's not it. It's not the accolade, cause we're not looking at 21.1%...it's 27.5%. So nope, that's not it.
Maybe I dismissed the straight math too quickly?
KDR = (3*(0.25-((75/(150+(46-69.6)))^2)))) = -30.6%
Nope, I dismissed it quickly enough...lol. Hrmm, how about working the -1.3% back?
-0.013 = (3*(0.25-((75/(150+DRR))^2))))...DR = -1.28/-1.3...would be 47.3...~68% of 69.6.
And if we work the -6.3% back?
-0.063 = (3*(0.25-((75/(150+DRR))^2))))...DR = -5.93/-5.9...would be 46.4...~67% of 69.6.
Nope. Meh. Nope.
Okay, let's look at some other stuff, eh?
-1.3% (31.1% vs. -6.3% (28.5%)...a difference of 2.6% becomes a difference of 5%.
Oh well, this is where I usually bow out...somebody like frtoaster or bareel steps in to make sense of it.
Zark
Sensor Scan 3 @130 Aux: -69.6 DRR
Attack Pattern Beta 1: -20 DRR
Boreas
Kinetic DR: 31.1% (46 DRR)
Energy DR: 28.5% (40.5 DRR)
Energy DR2: 27.5% (38.5 DRR - no Accolade)
After Scan
KDR: -1.3%
EDR: -6.3%
EDR2: -8.2%
After APB1
KDR: 21.6%
EDR: 18.3%
EDR2: 17.0%
After Scan then APB1
KDR: -10%
EDR: -15.6%
EDR2: -17.8%
After APB1 then Scan
KDR: -10%
EDR: -15.6%
EDR2: -17.8%
So we can see that the Scan does not improve the APB1 or vice versa - order doesn't matter in that sense. We can also see there are diminishing returns, because Scan+APB1 is not the same as Scan minus the debuff from APB1 as well.
Okay, I copypasted all that sorcery into a txt document, placed it in the game folder, loaded with the proper chat command, and the cheese was still there. Did I do something wrong?
Did you note your KDR/EDR at base and with each successive stacked debuff? Some of the math guys out there might be able to figure out what's going on with more raw data...a pattern might emerge to reveal Cryptic's secrets.
I coudnt even count how many debuffs I had stacked. First time, they wiped out our entire team (and it was a good team, a quite tanky wells myself) in about 5 seconds. No time. Then we react, we hold like 10 seconds this time. All dead again. 3rd respawn (10-0, less than a minute), I try to get some distance and count how many betas I have, till two beam gets me out of TT and tears my ship appart... Shield, hull... 15-0.
That was some days ago, I pvpeed a lot since then and never encountered them myself again, but others did like I read in Opvp. Wish I could have checked my defensive stats, although I know those aren't real kdr/edr values, at least, yeah, to have a little more knowledge of how cheesed I was being...
Quick review:
Now let's add a new toon - Betty (randomly named Fed Human). Don't need to track KDR/EDR separately, since Betty's sporting 0% for both!
Betty
DR: 0%
After Scan
DR: -66.7%
After APB1
DR: -19.9%
After Scan and APB1
DR: -83.8%
And well then...color me surprised. Hrmmm, no wonder I was getting nowhere...meh.
So that 31.1% on Boreas caused...
-19.9% vs. 21.6%
-19.9% vs. -9.5%
-66.7% vs. -1.3%
-66.7% vs. -32.4%
-83.8% vs. -10%
-83.8% vs. -41.3%
Looking back at Betty and the DR vs. -DRR...
APB1: 99.5%
Scan: 95.833333333333333333333333333333%
APB1 + Scan: 93.526785714285714285714285714286%
So there's still diminishing returns...but nothing like with +DRR.
Also of note, obviously there's no -75% cap like there's the 75% cap on +DRR calculating DR.
Oh, I've definitely got a different view on the potential that comes from the stacked debuffs - seeing that -DRR doesn't play by the same rules as +DRR. With all the +Bleed, stack up that -DRR on the target and pop them with peashooters...
...have to wonder if that's something the PvP folks "are learning" from the PvE folks.
KDR 31.1% went to -1.3% with Scan.
KDR 0.0% went to -66.7% with Scan.
That's ~98.5% reduction. Doesn't make sense...meh.
Hrmmm, let me buff up that -1.3% guy before the Scan and see what happens.
Boreas: 31.1% KDR
Zark: -66.9 DRR
Boreas: -1.3% KDR
Boreas: -1.3% KDR
Boreas: +32 DRR
Boreas: 19.9% KDR
Boreas: 31.1% KDR
Boreas: +32 DRR
Boreas: 42.5% KDR
Zark: -66.9 DRR
Boreas: 19.9% KDR
Hrmm, with AtS/HE/BFI...
Boreas: 64.8% KDR
Zark: -66.9 DRR
Boreas: 56.3% KDR
31.1% -> -1.3% (-32.4%)
42.5% -> 19.9% (-22.6%)
64.8% -> 56.3% (-8.5%)
I'm very curious about whether there's three formulas, two formulas, or a part of the one formula that we have that's missing.
Yes but the problem comes when you're out of tt... And many builds can't have two copies of tt. Or then subnukes. I don't know, so many poweful resistance debuffs, so much spam of them. It's way worse than power syphon drones from the kdf. Man, I hate carriers so much...
I'm also weary of the romulan plasma proc stacking, along with [Pla] embassy consoles. Hulls just melt so fast it's insane.
if it can stack it is OP.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
http://www.jupiterbroadcasting.com/5953/cutting-the-cord-review-stoked-73/
As far as the cap goes, +75% is the same as saying it takes 4 times longer to kill someone. But when you kill someone 4 time faster it is 400%. So I would think the - cap is -400%
Now for the math I just put all the formulas into one for easy.
=-((1/((1+(1/(1-0.75))-1-(((1/(1- 0.75))-1)/(1+("Total+MAG"/((1/(1- 0.75))-1))+(("Total+MAG"/((1/(1- 0.75))-1))^2))))/(1+(1/(1-0.75))-1-(((1/(1- 0.75))-1)/(1+("Total-MAG"/((1/(1- 0.75))-1))+(("Total-MAG"/((1/(1- 0.75))-1))^2))))))-1
Note the "Total+MAG? or "Total-MAG" is whatever the tool tip say divided by 100. So if Sensor Scan is 70 put .70 into the formula.
And by then it's too late...we're up 8, 9 or 10-0, at which some of the more frustrated players starting crying "HAX" or "Premade!" On the contrary, I'm usually alone in a group of strangers...only Iskandus has been known to PUG-up with me regularly, and that's when our time zones sync up. Otherwise, I just queue up myself and see what happens.
As for strategy, there really is none. I fly straight to the center of the map, orbit while stacking APA3/APO1/FOMM3/EPtW1/DEM3/BFAW2, and just kill anything that comes into range. Works great so far...
RCK
anything can work in pugs, no big deal. And damage count is not important in this kind of builds, u can do 3millons of damage and don't get a single kill if the other team is healing properly.
Damage charts in pvp are irrelevant, i found them usefull for check misses and critical hits, or check the enemy build, but nothing more.
That is the thing with those builds, that is all u can do. You can fly your ship for 1 year and u won't improve a bit, besides keep your build up-to-date with the new stuff that cryptic release.
Eventualy if u want to go futher in pvp, u will have to switch to another type of ship and build. There u will find that u will need a lot of new things in order to sucess.
I fly my bfaw dkora in pvp when i'm pugging, but after a while is boring as hell. I prefer the escort all the way.
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
Spot on, people can stagnate if they keep falling back to their comfort build which will get nerfed or have their weaknesses exposed.
If you try different ships/ weapons and even factions and careers you will go much further in PVP. Noone said it was going to be easy but it will that much more fulfilling if you put that much effort in.
At the top fleets everyone has a toon in both Science and Tactical at least to see both career's strengths and weaknesses.
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Not that I don't believe you, I've seen some great fed cruisers in pvp, but you always have to question DPS and kill numbers while using BFAW. Take a FAW cruiser and a T'Varo on the same team; the cruiser is spamming FAW and racking up p lots of damage points but depending on how many targets are in the area, it may not be doing any meaningful damage. Then take the T'varo decloaking alpha strike on one target. The T'varo did all the meaningful damage and gets a kill, but so does the FAW cruiser too. The T'varo did all the work and the cruiser got crazy DPS numbers and a kill but did no actual help in killing the target.
I'm not saying this is you at all, but one always has to question it.
Scoreboard damage
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
PVP is at is best a team effort gameplay... Where one of those teams can have 4 hangars spaming those waves of little faws and stackeable apb3 pets, and 3 faw cruisers/simitars cleaning the oposite team. What its being pointed here is the need to fix certaing spameable pets having an ability more powerful than its player ability counterpart (as Power Syphon Drones vs Energy Syphon, or APB pets vs player's APB). If its the carrier nature spam pets with powerful abilities, then ok, but for the sake of ballance, those pets abilities shouldnt be n any case as powerful at its single player ability pair, much less even more powerful...
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Oh well, I thought you were referring to the last pages, we were talking about those pets and negative resistances.
queue, the one that bareel gives credit to at times much in the way I give bareel credit!
Alas, that formula doesn't result in expected results.
46 DRR gives 30.66% DR instead of 31.07% DR...
A -20 DRR debuff gives 16.9% DR instead of 21.6% DR...
But it did get me looking at the raw formulas instead of the clean formula, which led to some interesting things.
Max Damage Resistance = MAX
Positive Damage Resistance Rating = DRRP
Diminished Positive Damage Resistance Rating = DDRRP
Damage Resistance w/o Debuffs = DR
Negative Damage Resistance Rating = DRRN
Diminished Negative Damage Resistance Rating = DDRRN
Resisted Diminished Negative Damage Resistance Rating = RDDRRN
Total Damage Resistance = TDR
DDRRP = (1 / (1 - MAX)) - 1 - (((1 / (1 - MAX)) - 1) / (1 + (DRRP / ((1 / (1 - MAX)) - 1)) + ((DRRP / ((1 / (1 - MAX)) - 1)) ^2)))
DR = ((-1 * ((1 / (1 + DDRRP)) - 1)) * 100)
DDRRN = (1 / (1 - MAX)) - 1 - (((1 / (1 - MAX)) - 1) / (1 + (DRRN / ((1 / (1 - MAX)) - 1)) + ((DRRN / ((1 / (1 - MAX)) - 1)) ^2)))
RDDRRN = (1 - (DR / 100) * DDRRN)
TDR = (-1 * ((1 / ((1 + DDRRP) / (1 + RDDRRN)) - 1)) * 100)
So let's plug some numbers in, eh? We'll start with Betty.
MAX = 0.75 (the MAX is always going to be the same)
Betty
DRRP = 0.0000
DDRRP = 0.0000
TDR = 00.0% Match!
Let's apply the -20 DRR (APB1) to her. We'll do it as a DRRN of 0.20...
DRRN = 0.2000
DDRRN = 0.1992
RDDRRN = 0.1992
TDR = -19.9% Match!
Let's apply the -69.6 DRR (Scan) to her. We'll do it as a DRRN of 0.696...
DRRN = 0.6960
DDRRN = 0.6669
RDDRRN = 0.6669
TDR = -66.7% Match!
Let's apply both!
DRRN = 0.8960
DDRRN = 0.8384
RDDRRN = 0.8384
TDR = -83.8% Match!
Okay though, that's with no positive DRR/DR taking place. Let's take a look at Boreas.
Boreas
Kinetic DRRP = 0.4600
Kinetic DDRRP = 0.4508
Kinetic TDR = 31.1% Match!
Energy DRRP = 0.4050
Energy DDRRP = 0.3986
Energy TDR = 28.5% Match!
No-Accolade Energy DRRP = 0.3850
No-Accolade Energy DDRRP = 0.3795
No-Accolade Energy TDR = 27.5% Match!
We're doing good, let's hit him with that APB1!!!!
DRRN = 0.2000
DDRRN = 0.1992
RDDRRN = 0.1992
Kinetic RDDRRN = 0.1373
Kinetic TDR = 21.6% Match!
Energy RDDRRN = 0.1424
Energy TDR = 18.3% Match!
No-Accolade Energy RDDRRN = 0.1444
No-Accolade Energy TDR = 17.0% Match!
Oh yeah, that's what I'm talking about - let's hit him with the Scan just to be sure!
DRRN = 0.6960
DDRRN = 0.6669
RDDRRN = 0.6669
Kinetic RDDRRN = 0.4597
Kinetic TDR = -0.6% Listed -1.3%
Energy RDDRRN = 0.4768
Energy TDR = -5.6% Listed -6.3%
No-Accolade Energy RDDRRN = 0.4834
No-Accolade Energy TDR = -7.5% Listed -8.2%
Well, TRIBBLE - so what if we hit him with both?
DRRN = 0.8960
DDRRN = 0.8384
RDDRRN = 0.8384
Kinetic RDDRRN = 0.5779
Kinetic TDR = -8.8% Listed -10%
Energy RDDRRN = 0.5995
Energy TDR = -14.4% Listed -15.6%
No-Accolade Energy RDDRRN = 0.6078
No-Accolade Energy TDR = -16.6% Listed -17.8%
With the Sensor Scan, each listed value is off by 0.7%...
With both, each listed value is off by 1.2%...
It's odd that it matches when base DRR/DR is 0 and you apply the various debuffs. It's odd that it matches with the debuff of 20. Yet, with the Scan and the combination of the Scan/APB1 it's off by that small amount.
A problem with the formula? A tooltip issue? If it was either, why does it work fine when it does?
Oh well, I need to go to the store for more caffeine...
edit: Wasn't thinking - good caffeine (found some more before I left)...rounding. It's probably not actually -69.6 for the Scan. That's a rounded number. The actual number probably results in the listed values.
edit2: So then, somebody took...
DR = -((1/(1+(1/(1-DamRes%Max))-1-(((1/(1- DamRes%Max))-1)/(1+(MAG/((1/(1- DamRes%Max))-1))+((MAG/((1/(1- DamRes%Max))-1))^2)))))-1)
...and turned it into...
DR = (3*(0.25-(75/(150+DRM))^2))
...for us! Yay them!
Anybody want to take...
TDR = (-1 * ((1 / ((1 + (1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1 - (((1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1) / (1 + (DRRP / ((1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1)) + ((DRRP / ((1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1)) ^2)))) / (1 + (1 - (((-1 * ((1 / (1 + (1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1 - (((1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1) / (1 + (DRRP / ((1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1)) + ((DRRP / ((1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1)) ^2))))) - 1)) * 100) / 100) * (1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1 - (((1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1) / (1 + (DRRN / ((1 / (1 - MAX)) - 1)) + ((DRRN / ((1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1)) ^2)))))) - 1)) * 100)
...and do the same? So folks can just plug in that total positive Damage Resistance Rating and the total negative Damage Resistance Rating? I'm going for that caffeine now.
edit3: Though, if it were a rounding thing - wouldn't the 0 DR then Debuff have the same issue? Meh, I'm going to enjoy some caffeine and not think for a bit...lalalala.
But in knowing how that negative DR works - looking at stacking debuffs - adding in some of that nifty new increased bleed...it would definitely change things, eh?
edit4: Needed to note, the DRRP/DRRN numbers...divide by 100 (taking say 17.5 to 0.175) before entering them in the formulas.
Basically, TT or not...all APB shots will hit as if APB was in place for the person with APB up?
Also, does anybody know if the TT clear is like a tick sort of thing in that it clears the debuffs at a tiny interval - which in turn would leave room for the possibility of multiple debuffs to exist for shots that land between that interval?
I understand your skepticism. But as anyone who has flown with me will attest, I'm doing a lot more than just spamming. Sure, I pop my share of BFAW, but I'm also focus firing on individual targets and using my stacked buffs to neutralize their defenses and penetrate their shields. That, plus I like to maneuver a lot to get the better shot on a weak facing. There's no more disturbing sight than an FAHCR pumping out 12K+ DPS and hunting you down when you try to escape the fire zone.
And while the occasional fluke "mop-up" kill's do occur, they don't explain my average 10-15 kills per match. I'm queuing up more now than before, so hopefully we'll all run into each other at some point and you can judge for yourselves. But I am definitely not the typical BFAW spam boat...
RCK - a.k.a. "Jacob Lightener, Captain of the Purple Avenger 5"
you are doing the same that any other bfaw aux2bat crusier does, the only thing u can do, pick a target and smash your spacebar (or whatever other bind you are using). While bfaw is active u are spreading the damage across the board, and while is on coldown you are putting all your damage in 1 target. U may save your apa and tactical feet for use it when u see fit, but thats all.
Your build and your playstyle is not special, and no new in pvp. They are talking about it now cause there is couple of guys playing with this builds in group and they are effective with them, but again...is not new, dentals are been using this for a while.
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
I also tested this and sadly the first shot doesn't use the APB debuff. and the APB is cleared right away so none of the shots used the debuff.
Meh, that's both good news and bad news...so to speak. I was wondering, since it appears the Beach Ball applies its debuff to the Beach Ball. Damage is generally too high without it.