I understand your skepticism. But as anyone who has flown with me will attest, I'm doing a lot more than just spamming. Sure, I pop my share of BFAW, but I'm also focus firing on individual targets and using my stacked buffs to neutralize their defenses and penetrate their shields. That, plus I like to maneuver a lot to get the better shot on a weak facing. There's no more disturbing sight than an FAHCR pumping out 12K+ DPS and hunting you down when you try to escape the fire zone.
And while the occasional fluke "mop-up" kill's do occur, they don't explain my average 10-15 kills per match. I'm queuing up more now than before, so hopefully we'll all run into each other at some point and you can judge for yourselves. But I am definitely not the typical BFAW spam boat...
RCK - a.k.a. "Jacob Lightener, Captain of the Purple Avenger 5"
I have multiple toons, all of them on different builds/ships, performing different roles. Among others I have a Vaper, a classic DD escort, a Sci/Sci, a Sci Healer, Eng Healer. And I also have a FAW Tac Cruiser.
Now assuming, that you are flying a Cruiser, with 6 to 8 eight single beams and FAW, then you ARE a typical FAW boat.
With the FAW Tac Cruiser, it is very hard NOT to land on the very top of the scoreboard at the end of a match, in terms of kills and total damage output.
However, out of the other build choices that I have, against decent opponents it is one of the LEAST effective PVP toons.
If I have a compentent Tac Escort on my team, it is usually the escort with it's burst that kills targets. Due to the nature of how the scoreboard functions, the FAW cruiser is also getting credited with a point. Often the FAW Cruiser will get as much points as the team was able to kill opponent players. It's more a tribute to the shortcomings of the in-game scoreboard than to the actual effectiness of a FAW boat.
One or two FAW boats can be devastating against unorganized and inexperienced groups. But that can be said to most other builds.
Having said that, there is a niche for FAW boats where they can be highly effective and contributive towards the outcome of a match. But that requires a premade.
In most cases, FAW is merely support. Pet spam control, support damage. etc.
queue, the one that bareel gives credit to at times much in the way I give bareel credit!
Alas, that formula doesn't result in expected results.
46 DRR gives 30.66% DR instead of 31.07% DR...
A -20 DRR debuff gives 16.9% DR instead of 21.6% DR...
But it did get me looking at the raw formulas instead of the clean formula, which led to some interesting things.
You know you could probably get away with posting random numbers and equations at this point and most of us wouldn't even know. I sure wouldn't. There might even be an app that gives you random equations to paste lol.
You know you could probably get away with posting random numbers and equations at this point and most of us wouldn't even know. I sure wouldn't. There might even be an app that gives you random equations to paste lol.
Heh, but that's why I listed out all the acronyms I was using before I did the formulas. Yes, I might have taken a little literary license by using acronyms such as DDRRP (derp) and DDRRN (durn/darn)...and that might have been a little distracting, but I was running low on caffeine at the time and was trying to keep myself interested...lol.
In that podcast, Geko shares some math and we get two formulas from him. If you scroll down that page to the MATH section, you'll see the following:
Cap = 75%. WITH EXCEPTIONS (Intrepid Armor = 90%)
Curved Value = (1/(1-DamRes%Max))-1-(((1/(1- DamRes%Max))-1)/(1+(MAG/((1/(1- DamRes%Max))-1))+((MAG/((1/(1- DamRes%Max))-1))^2)))
Dam Res=-((1/(1+SumOfAllDiminishedMags))-1)
Curved Value is the Diminished Damage Resistance Rating (or Diminished Damage Resistance Magnitude if you prefer). In that Dam Res formula, you drop the solution from the Curved Value formula in for SumOfAllDiminishedMags.
That Curved Value formula is the formula for the DDRRP and DDRRN formulas. For DDRRP, you'll add all your various positive DRR/DRM numbers (from gear/skills/abilities) to get your DRRP (your sum of positive DRR/DRM numbers) and plug that into the DDRRP (Diminished Damage Resistance Rating - Positive) formula. For DDRRN, you'll add up all the various negative DRR/DRM numbers from debuffs to get your DRRN (your sum of negative DRR/DRM numbers) and plug that into the DDRRN (negative) formula.. Both of them experience diminishing returns, so you plug them into their respective formula (which is the same formula, but since you're pulling two values (positive/negative) I broke it out into two copies of that same formula).
As Hawk told us in a post, that negative DRR/DRM is actually resisted by the positive DRR/DRM. So we need to figure out the positive DR number, which utilizes the Dam Res formula that was provided. I multiply it by 100 to make it a percentage number instead of a decimal number (50% vs. 0.50 sort of thing). Because I do that, in the RDDRRN (Resisted Diminished Damage Resistance Rating - Negative) formula I divide the DR by 100.
Basically, it's working along these lines. Say you've got 25% resistance, k? That means the debuff's going to be 75% as effective. So it's a case of multiplying the total negative DRR by 0.75 to get 75% of it. 100% - 25% = 75% or 1 - 0.25 = 0.75 (to get the modifier).
Although the formula is not actually shown in the podcast, while discussing debuffs Geko states that with the Dam Res formula you take the extra step of dividing the 1+SumOfAllDiminishedMags by 1+SumOfAllDiminishedMagDebuffs. Thus, we get the TDR (Total Damage Resistance) formula:
Thus, we see the SumOfAll is additionally being divided by the SumOfAllDebuffs. Note, once again mind you - I'm multiplying it by 100 just to get the percentage instead of decimal value (that 25% vs. 0.25 sort of thing).
So I basically just added what Hawk said about the resistance to the change in resistance and added the bit that Geko mentioned but did not show us the actual formula for...to get:
Where again, I multiply by 100...blah, blah, blah.
Have to keep in mind, what Geko gave us for DR not taking into account debuffs was this formula:
Dam Res=-((1/(1+(1/(1-DamRes%Max))-1-(((1/(1- DamRes%Max))-1)/(1+(MAG/((1/(1- DamRes%Max))-1))+((MAG/((1/(1- DamRes%Max))-1))^2)))))-1)
Which somebody turned into this formula for us:
DR=(3*(0.25-(75/(150+DRM))^2))
The same should be able to be done for that hideous TDR formula that I have up there...math is not my thing though. As I said somewhere else, I took College Precalc in 1990...Calculus for Business & Social Sciences in 2005. That's it. I was an English Major (Technical & Professional Writing)...though one probably couldn't tell with the way I butcher the language in such an informal manner, lol.
I've actually got it broken down into an eight line LibreOffice Calc spreadsheet....
Max / 0.7500
DRRP / input value of the total positive DRR divided by 100 (for example: 0.4600)
DDRRP / =SUM((1/(1-C3))-1-(((1/(1- C3))-1)/(1+(C4/((1/(1- C3))-1))+((C4/((1/(1- C3))-1))^2))))
DRP / =SUM((-((1/(1+C5))-1))*100)
DRRN / input value of the total negative DRR divided by 100 (for example: 0.2000)
DDRRN / =SUM((1/(1-C3))-1-(((1/(1- C3))-1)/(1+(C7/((1/(1- C3))-1))+((C7/((1/(1- C3))-1))^2))))
RDDRRN / =SUM((1-(C6/100))*C8)
TDR / =SUM((-((1/((1+C5)/(1+C9))-1))*100))
So I just have to input C4 and C7...tada...I get my TDR value. For the example numbers above, I get a TDR of 21.6 - which matches the listed DR of 21.6% on the character sheet.
Edit: Needed to note, the DRRP/DRRN numbers...divide by 100 (taking say 17.5 to 0.175) before entering them in the formulas.
you are doing the same that any other bfaw aux2bat crusier does, the only thing u can do, pick a target and smash your spacebar (or whatever other bind you are using). While bfaw is active u are spreading the damage across the board, and while is on coldown you are putting all your damage in 1 target. U may save your apa and tactical feet for use it when u see fit, but thats all.
Your build and your playstyle is not special, and no new in pvp. They are talking about it now cause there is couple of guys playing with this builds in group and they are effective with them, but again...is not new, dentals are been using this for a while.
Have you ever considered that all those escorts getting easy spike kills are doing so because someone like me has already softened-up the map? So when Joe-Escort swoops in for his alpha, he's hitting an already wounded target that is being:
1. Debuffed (FOMM3, APA3, APO1)
2. Drained (7x Fleet Pols + Leech)
3. Hull-smashed (DEM3 + KCB + EPtW1)
4. Generally left wondering WTF is going on
But by all means, ignore me. In fact, when you see me on the map, pay me no mind at all. I'm just a slow, fat feddie cruiser that's only going to tickle your shields a bit and maybe heal a teammate.
And if you do find your shields and hull slowly disintegrating, don't look to the impotent FAHCR quietly maneuvering behind you. Look to the "tac-scort" half way across the map. Yeah, that's it - he must be the one killing you...and from 30K range! HAX, I tell you, HAXXX!!
Bottom Line: Your overconfidence is my best weapon. And no matter how much they tweak the game mechanics, Cryptic still can't nerf arrogance...
Have you ever considered that all those escorts getting easy spike kills are doing so because someone like me has already softened-up the map?
don't u think that those escorts are having a hard time killing the target cause you stacked all the resistences of the fleet shields and they have the same energy type than you? Trust me, is not nice having all the enemy team with 10 adapt resistences of your energy type before you fired a single shot.
1. Debuffed (FOMM3, APA3, APO1)
2. Drained (7x Fleet Pols + Leech)
3. Hull-smashed (DEM3 + KCB + EPtW1)
4. Generally left wondering WTF is going on
- APA and APO don't debuff the target lol. FOMM is cleaned by TT, 99% of the escorts circle 2 copies of TT.
- DEM do a nice damage...over time. U won't kill good escots with damage over time, they will run everytime they are in trouble, and u won't be able of catch them with a crusier.
I run 7 polarized disruptor with leeach and flow caps at 9, and the drain is negible, everyone is running 6 in PI+leech+zero point. So unless your drain have a mag
Bottom Line: Your overconfidence is my best weapon. And no matter how much they tweak the game mechanics, Cryptic still can't nerf arrogance...
I'm not overconfidence, i run all 3 setups: classic dhc escort, spike escort and bfaw aux2bat crusier, i'm just telling you that u are not as magic as you think, and you are not doing anything new or special as u suggested. And your build is not as effective as u think, is all relative, CAN be effective sometimes, it all depends, is situational, like anything else in PvP.
they will run everytime they are in trouble, and u won't be able of catch them with a crusier.
Au Contraire, mon Capitaine.
Most 'good' escorts use evasive + engine battery + APO to run, though some instead use deut surplus to stagger their escapes. Since the majority of my foes while pugging fall into this category, part of my build is specifically oriented towards catching these runners. Either with engine batteries and evasives myself, or with the impulse capacitance cell for overboost. Running from the fight is a long honoured escort tradition, but it has one major problem: If your enemy can pursue, you're usually boned.
Most 'good' escorts use evasive + engine battery + APO to run, though some instead use deut surplus to stagger their escapes. Since the majority of my foes while pugging fall into this category, part of my build is specifically oriented towards catching these runners. Either with engine batteries and evasives myself, or with the impulse capacitance cell for overboost. Running from the fight is a long honoured escort tradition, but it has one major problem: If your enemy can pursue, you're usually boned.
And I can indeed pursue.
Good luck trying to pursue an escort with a crusier. If u are not in crusier (like i'm suspecting) then u missed the point of the conversation.
Escort can catch a running cruiser but then the cruiser turns away and you're screwed unless he doesn't turn. The only way it's worked for me is to catch up to the cruiser and force him to turn so that another pursuing ship can then get within range... Not the norm but the exception.
Nope, that's not what you said...but it's been the case for me more oft than not. It's far easier to catch an Escort than to catch a Cruiser...when the ships are built to run.
"But doesn't Cryptic tell us this isn't the case?" I'm not sure that's a sentence, so I'm not sure how to respond. But I think I understand what you are referring to.
You cannot get weapon power past 125 with batteries or powers. The power levels are pretty hard capped. That is, any power (say, a beam) that calculates damage based on your current weapon power level will never deal damage based on anything more than 125.
If you activate a buff that gives you more than 125 power, the power is still there, and you can draw from it. So, lets say:
You are at 50/125.
You activate a buff that gives you 50 power.
You will be at 100/125.
Weapons fire based on 100 weapon power.
If multiple weapons are fired, power will start to drain, and all weapons will subsequently deal less power.
However, let say:
You are at 100/125.
You activate a buff that gives you 50 power.
You will be at 125/125.
Weapons fire based on 125 weapon power.
If multiple weapons are fired, power will start to drain. However, you still have 25 unclaimed power from your buff, so that fills in. Your weapon power level wont drop below 125 until you deplete that buff. Once that happens, then power levels will drop below 125 power.
I'm pretty sure its working how its supposed to, but I haven't looked at that math in a long time. So there could be a problem, but I'm pretty sure its WAD. Haven't really thought about whether that should be changed or not.
"But doesn't Cryptic tell us this isn't the case?" I'm not sure that's a sentence, so I'm not sure how to respond. But I think I understand what you are referring to.
You cannot get weapon power past 125 with batteries or powers. The power levels are pretty hard capped. That is, any power (say, a beam) that calculates damage based on your current weapon power level will never deal damage based on anything more than 125.
If you activate a buff that gives you more than 125 power, the power is still there, and you can draw from it. So, lets say:
You are at 50/125.
You activate a buff that gives you 50 power.
You will be at 100/125.
Weapons fire based on 100 weapon power.
If multiple weapons are fired, power will start to drain, and all weapons will subsequently deal less power.
However, let say:
You are at 100/125.
You activate a buff that gives you 50 power.
You will be at 125/125.
Weapons fire based on 125 weapon power.
If multiple weapons are fired, power will start to drain. However, you still have 25 unclaimed power from your buff, so that fills in. Your weapon power level wont drop below 125 until you deplete that buff. Once that happens, then power levels will drop below 125 power.
I'm pretty sure its working how its supposed to, but I haven't looked at that math in a long time. So there could be a problem, but I'm pretty sure its WAD. Haven't really thought about whether that should be changed or not.
Speechless. Not b/c of anything in this post, but ... um ... err ... huh?
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
"But doesn't Cryptic tell us this isn't the case?" I'm not sure that's a sentence, so I'm not sure how to respond. But I think I understand what you are referring to.
You cannot get weapon power past 125 with batteries or powers. The power levels are pretty hard capped. That is, any power (say, a beam) that calculates damage based on your current weapon power level will never deal damage based on anything more than 125.
If you activate a buff that gives you more than 125 power, the power is still there, and you can draw from it. So, lets say:
You are at 50/125.
You activate a buff that gives you 50 power.
You will be at 100/125.
Weapons fire based on 100 weapon power.
If multiple weapons are fired, power will start to drain, and all weapons will subsequently deal less power.
However, let say:
You are at 100/125.
You activate a buff that gives you 50 power.
You will be at 125/125.
Weapons fire based on 125 weapon power.
If multiple weapons are fired, power will start to drain. However, you still have 25 unclaimed power from your buff, so that fills in. Your weapon power level wont drop below 125 until you deplete that buff. Once that happens, then power levels will drop below 125 power.
I'm pretty sure its working how its supposed to, but I haven't looked at that math in a long time. So there could be a problem, but I'm pretty sure its WAD. Haven't really thought about whether that should be changed or not.
OMG! after all this time there has been an official comment on overcapping, and it basically explained exactly how i explain it!
125- effect cap, damage multiplier cap
invisible power beyond 125- over caped, used up before the power below 125
OMG! after all this time there has been an official comment on overcapping, and it basically explained exactly how i explain it!
125- effect cap, damage multiplier cap
invisible power beyond 125- over caped, used up before the power below 125
im glad to hear thats working as intended
Actually there are qualifiers in there, but I'm still a bit stunned. I think dstahl has posted more in this forum ... and ... still um?
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
[*]If multiple weapons are fired, power will start to drain. However, you still have 25 unclaimed power from your buff, so that fills in. Your weapon power level wont drop below 125 until you deplete that buff. Once that happens, then power levels will drop below 125 power.
[/LIST]
This is absolutely not how weapon power is working. I can pop a weapon battery to get over 200 power, and with a theoretical maximum weapons drain of 64 I should never see my weapon energy dip below 125 -- but it does, albeit briefly.
To the extent that I understand it:
125 is the damage cap.
135 is the power cap.
Additional weapons energy after that helps to regen power during firing cycles, as does higher power regen.
i do the same for cannons, im not sure what everyone else's problem is, saying it doesn't work for them. the problem is its hard to boost weapons energy levels high enough without high end EPtW, but that will also skew the test with its damage bonus. no ones 'tests' showing no real difference i take to seriously. with DHCs though, due to the way they seem to return energy, it almost makes no difference if your at a minimal overcap level or not. for turrets, singles and DCs with their more beam array like fireing cycles, though 3 seconds instead of 5, it does make a difference. i see it when ever i overcap single cannon boats.
This is absolutely not how weapon power is working. I can pop a weapon battery to get over 200 power, and with a theoretical maximum weapons drain of 64 I should never see my weapon energy dip below 125 -- but it does, albeit briefly.
To the extent that I understand it:
125 is the damage cap.
135 is the power cap.
Additional weapons energy after that helps to regen power during firing cycles, as does higher power regen.
ah yes, batteries. every time i use weapons batteries in testing nothing makes sense. im pretty sure those dont work past 125 or something. similarly to BO being bugged past 125, it takes ALL your overcaped power, AND -50 starting at 125.
ah yes, batteries. every time i use weapons batteries in testing nothing makes sense. im pretty sure those dont work past 125 or something. similarly to BO being bugged past 125, it takes ALL your overcaped power, AND -50 starting at 125.
Then you would think that this would make an Engineer still useful because of EPS...
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this: American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Then you would think that this would make an Engineer still useful because of EPS...
engeis would be great if for them the effect cap was not 125/130 on everything. i haven't been harping on and on about that or anything, :rolleyes: as a way to make them just flat more powerful like they need to be.
This is absolutely not how weapon power is working. I can pop a weapon battery to get over 200 power, and with a theoretical maximum weapons drain of 64 I should never see my weapon energy dip below 125 -- but it does, albeit briefly.
To the extent that I understand it:
125 is the damage cap.
135 is the power cap.
Additional weapons energy after that helps to regen power during firing cycles, as does higher power regen.
Testing with Beams and Cannons showed different results for me. With Cannons, I hit that 135 and that's pretty much it. With Beams, I've gone to 180+ and still saw a difference. I couldn't go higher though to see if I ran into the same thing with Beams at some point that I did with Cannons at 135.
Admittedly, I didn't test it with a Weapon Battery for the Beams...which should have been obvious on my part. Hrmmm, I just never use them - so I didn't even think about them.
I know there was some recent discussion about EPS and Power Regen...and that the Overcap affected that, but testing showed the same results on Power Regen even when not Overcapped.
It gets further complicated by weapons ending up out of sync and changing the manner in which the drain, regen, return all work together...meh. I've always found Weapon Drain math to be a PITA...c'mon, in a game where you can turn fast enough to make it look like you fired the BO aft - it's all going to be so theoretical that it's going to be rough to match it up to the application.
edit: lordhavelock would probably be a good guy to hit up on it, mind you...
Testing with Beams and Cannons showed different results for me. With Cannons, I hit that 135 and that's pretty much it. With Beams, I've gone to 180+ and still saw a difference. I couldn't go higher though to see if I ran into the same thing with Beams at some point that I did with Cannons at 135.
Admittedly, I didn't test it with a Weapon Battery for the Beams...which should have been obvious on my part. Hrmmm, I just never use them - so I didn't even think about them.
I know there was some recent discussion about EPS and Power Regen...and that the Overcap affected that, but testing showed the same results on Power Regen even when not Overcapped.
It gets further complicated by weapons ending up out of sync and changing the manner in which the drain, regen, return all work together...meh. I've always found Weapon Drain math to be a PITA...c'mon, in a game where you can turn fast enough to make it look like you fired the BO aft - it's all going to be so theoretical that it's going to be rough to match it up to the application.
edit: lordhavelock would probably be a good guy to hit up on it, mind you...
I get the same results meaning significantly lower ceiling "soft cap" on dual heavies compared to beams. Even use the useless weapon eng consoles to test to "inflate" weapons power. Beams simply "soft cap" a lot higher resulting in higher sustained damage.
Mind you not complaining about this imbalance. Beams are back but might need slight down tuning.....
If multiple weapons are fired, power will start to drain. However, you still have 25 unclaimed power from your buff, so that fills in. Your weapon power level wont drop below 125 until you deplete that buff. Once that happens, then power levels will drop below 125 power.
Geko, I recently did some testing with cannons, and there was no visible benefit from buffing my 125/100 weapons power with Plasmonic Leech (+22), Weapons Battery (+75), and/or Red Matter Capacitor (+25). I don't mean to be argumentative, but it doesn't necessarily work the way you describe. Which, if that's intended, do you think this is a bug?
I ran several tests (all listed here), but for example, here are the details from one of them:
Test 5: Weapon Power Overcap - 4x DHC & 3x Turrets
Note that my ship's weapons power baseline is 125/100. DHC reduce power levels by -12, and turrets reduce power levels by -8 for each additional weapon firing. Because I had to pilot my craft to keep enemies within the DHC's firing arc, I could only take quick glances at weapons power, so I was assisted by my girlfriend in monitoring the changes. She was directed to focus on the weapon power display and call out numbers as we tested. I did have Plasmonic Leech in effect during this test.
Observation:
Power levels dropped from 125 down to 65 during each firing cycle. As above, drop did not go directly from 125 to 65, there were similar 1-3 steps that varied tremendously between the high and low with no apparent pattern. Power always returned to 125 between cycles.
Strangely, over the hundreds of firing cycles we observed, it was noticed four times that power dropped to 62.
After the first DHC, the other 3x DHC would apply -36 weapon power, with the -24 from the 3x Turrets, gives a combined -60 weapons power. 125-60=65. So this is expected. The reason for the odd drops to 62 is unknown. I wonder (theorize) if it might have something to do with a previous firing cycle overstepping into a new cycle before fully restoring power in between.
As with the other overcapping test, Leech was in use, but the +22 power it should theoretically be supplying was not visible. Neither were their noticeable differences when using a Weapons Battery or Red Matter Capacitor.
Towards this end of this test, I activated the BO Ability: Cannon Scatter Volley I. Despite spitting out additional blips of death fanned out to hit multiple targets, this had no apparent affect on power. In other words, when CSV was in use, power behaved as described above, exactly as it behaved when CSV was not active.
(I never did get around to testing Beams, all my play time has since been taken up with the CE Event. :rolleyes:)
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
I get the same results meaning significantly lower ceiling "soft cap" on dual heavies compared to beams. Even use the useless weapon eng consoles to test to "inflate" weapons power. Beams simply "soft cap" a lot higher resulting in higher sustained damage.
Mind you not complaining about this imbalance. Beams are back but might need slight down tuning.....
If one ignores drain completely, then you're looking at DHCs doing 1.74 times the damage per volley of an Array - 1.45 times the DPS. That ratio's consistent through skills, mark, rarity, consoles, and generic buffs - you get into things like BO/FAW vs. CRF/CSV, and I couldn't tell...never tested that.
4x DHCs/3 Turrets vs. 8x Beams is still a 1.03875:1 DPV ratio in favor of the Cannons. Without the option to overcap and stave off the drain, Beams would be even worse because of that loss of Weapon Power.
Course, that overcap came at a cost. I used the past tense there, because today's STO bleeds power out the wahzoo. There used to be a cost - you'd have to give up Shield/Engine/Aux power to get that overcap for the damage. Now? Hrmm, yeah.
So you've got the boats that already have more survivability, not really giving up any survivability, better able to run abilities to increase damage even more, sporting 250 arcs instead of 45 arcs, etc, etc, etc...
...lol, this is starting to look like I'm saying Beams are OP. I'm going to smoke.
engeis would be great if for them the effect cap was not 125/130 on everything. i haven't been harping on and on about that or anything, :rolleyes: as a way to make them just flat more powerful like they need to be.
So, wait, you mean EPS Power Transfer from an Engi doesn't add into Overcapping? Did not know that if thats true.
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this: American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Testing with Beams and Cannons showed different results for me. With Cannons, I hit that 135 and that's pretty much it. With Beams, I've gone to 180+ and still saw a difference. I couldn't go higher though to see if I ran into the same thing with Beams at some point that I did with Cannons at 135.
Admittedly, I didn't test it with a Weapon Battery for the Beams...which should have been obvious on my part. Hrmmm, I just never use them - so I didn't even think about them.
I know there was some recent discussion about EPS and Power Regen...and that the Overcap affected that, but testing showed the same results on Power Regen even when not Overcapped.
It gets further complicated by weapons ending up out of sync and changing the manner in which the drain, regen, return all work together...meh. I've always found Weapon Drain math to be a PITA...c'mon, in a game where you can turn fast enough to make it look like you fired the BO aft - it's all going to be so theoretical that it's going to be rough to match it up to the application.
edit: lordhavelock would probably be a good guy to hit up on it, mind you...
You are right, ive tested extensively myself too and DHC/turret build gains a tiny bit more dps (barely measurable) until like 134/135, after that the damage drops off again, its reallye erratic, almost makes no sense.
"But doesn't Cryptic tell us this isn't the case?" I'm not sure that's a sentence, so I'm not sure how to respond. But I think I understand what you are referring to.
You cannot get weapon power past 125 with batteries or powers. The power levels are pretty hard capped. That is, any power (say, a beam) that calculates damage based on your current weapon power level will never deal damage based on anything more than 125.
If you activate a buff that gives you more than 125 power, the power is still there, and you can draw from it. So, lets say:
You are at 50/125.
You activate a buff that gives you 50 power.
You will be at 100/125.
Weapons fire based on 100 weapon power.
If multiple weapons are fired, power will start to drain, and all weapons will subsequently deal less power.
However, let say:
You are at 100/125.
You activate a buff that gives you 50 power.
You will be at 125/125.
Weapons fire based on 125 weapon power.
If multiple weapons are fired, power will start to drain. However, you still have 25 unclaimed power from your buff, so that fills in. Your weapon power level wont drop below 125 until you deplete that buff. Once that happens, then power levels will drop below 125 power.
I'm pretty sure its working how its supposed to, but I haven't looked at that math in a long time. So there could be a problem, but I'm pretty sure its WAD. Haven't really thought about whether that should be changed or not.
I hope you didn't just loose an office bet, and had to post in the pvp forums. I really hope you'll be looking at some old code a few times more and share your results with us.
Hearing some more from the balance Guru himself, could really change the debates in this subsection quite a bit.
I get the same results meaning significantly lower ceiling "soft cap" on dual heavies compared to beams. Even use the useless weapon eng consoles to test to "inflate" weapons power. Beams simply "soft cap" a lot higher resulting in higher sustained damage.
Mind you not complaining about this imbalance. Beams are back but might need slight down tuning.....
js it beams, or tac + beams? *puts on mel gibson rubber mask* ENGIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES
So, wait, you mean EPS Power Transfer from an Engi doesn't add into Overcapping? Did not know that if thats true.
well, only weapon overcaping does anything. it adds to that sure. im saying eng captains should have a higher effect cap then the other 2 captains. 125 is the max effect cap, max power multiplier. 130 with certain cores. eng should have max of say 135, and with cores 140.
"But doesn't Cryptic tell us this isn't the case?" I'm not sure that's a sentence, so I'm not sure how to respond. But I think I understand what you are referring to.
You cannot get weapon power past 125 with batteries or powers. The power levels are pretty hard capped. That is, any power (say, a beam) that calculates damage based on your current weapon power level will never deal damage based on anything more than 125.
If you activate a buff that gives you more than 125 power, the power is still there, and you can draw from it. So, lets say:
You are at 50/125.
You activate a buff that gives you 50 power.
You will be at 100/125.
Weapons fire based on 100 weapon power.
If multiple weapons are fired, power will start to drain, and all weapons will subsequently deal less power.
However, let say:
You are at 100/125.
You activate a buff that gives you 50 power.
You will be at 125/125.
Weapons fire based on 125 weapon power.
If multiple weapons are fired, power will start to drain. However, you still have 25 unclaimed power from your buff, so that fills in. Your weapon power level wont drop below 125 until you deplete that buff. Once that happens, then power levels will drop below 125 power.
I'm pretty sure its working how its supposed to, but I haven't looked at that math in a long time. So there could be a problem, but I'm pretty sure its WAD. Haven't really thought about whether that should be changed or not.
I wish I could sticky just this post.
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I have multiple toons, all of them on different builds/ships, performing different roles. Among others I have a Vaper, a classic DD escort, a Sci/Sci, a Sci Healer, Eng Healer. And I also have a FAW Tac Cruiser.
Now assuming, that you are flying a Cruiser, with 6 to 8 eight single beams and FAW, then you ARE a typical FAW boat.
With the FAW Tac Cruiser, it is very hard NOT to land on the very top of the scoreboard at the end of a match, in terms of kills and total damage output.
However, out of the other build choices that I have, against decent opponents it is one of the LEAST effective PVP toons.
If I have a compentent Tac Escort on my team, it is usually the escort with it's burst that kills targets. Due to the nature of how the scoreboard functions, the FAW cruiser is also getting credited with a point. Often the FAW Cruiser will get as much points as the team was able to kill opponent players. It's more a tribute to the shortcomings of the in-game scoreboard than to the actual effectiness of a FAW boat.
One or two FAW boats can be devastating against unorganized and inexperienced groups. But that can be said to most other builds.
Having said that, there is a niche for FAW boats where they can be highly effective and contributive towards the outcome of a match. But that requires a premade.
In most cases, FAW is merely support. Pet spam control, support damage. etc.
Can we get the cliff notes version?
You know you could probably get away with posting random numbers and equations at this point and most of us wouldn't even know. I sure wouldn't. There might even be an app that gives you random equations to paste lol.
Heh, but that's why I listed out all the acronyms I was using before I did the formulas. Yes, I might have taken a little literary license by using acronyms such as DDRRP (derp) and DDRRN (durn/darn)...and that might have been a little distracting, but I was running low on caffeine at the time and was trying to keep myself interested...lol.
http://www.jupiterbroadcasting.com/5953/cutting-the-cord-review-stoked-73/
In that podcast, Geko shares some math and we get two formulas from him. If you scroll down that page to the MATH section, you'll see the following:
Cap = 75%. WITH EXCEPTIONS (Intrepid Armor = 90%)
Curved Value = (1/(1-DamRes%Max))-1-(((1/(1- DamRes%Max))-1)/(1+(MAG/((1/(1- DamRes%Max))-1))+((MAG/((1/(1- DamRes%Max))-1))^2)))
Dam Res=-((1/(1+SumOfAllDiminishedMags))-1)
Curved Value is the Diminished Damage Resistance Rating (or Diminished Damage Resistance Magnitude if you prefer). In that Dam Res formula, you drop the solution from the Curved Value formula in for SumOfAllDiminishedMags.
That Curved Value formula is the formula for the DDRRP and DDRRN formulas. For DDRRP, you'll add all your various positive DRR/DRM numbers (from gear/skills/abilities) to get your DRRP (your sum of positive DRR/DRM numbers) and plug that into the DDRRP (Diminished Damage Resistance Rating - Positive) formula. For DDRRN, you'll add up all the various negative DRR/DRM numbers from debuffs to get your DRRN (your sum of negative DRR/DRM numbers) and plug that into the DDRRN (negative) formula.. Both of them experience diminishing returns, so you plug them into their respective formula (which is the same formula, but since you're pulling two values (positive/negative) I broke it out into two copies of that same formula).
As Hawk told us in a post, that negative DRR/DRM is actually resisted by the positive DRR/DRM. So we need to figure out the positive DR number, which utilizes the Dam Res formula that was provided. I multiply it by 100 to make it a percentage number instead of a decimal number (50% vs. 0.50 sort of thing). Because I do that, in the RDDRRN (Resisted Diminished Damage Resistance Rating - Negative) formula I divide the DR by 100.
Basically, it's working along these lines. Say you've got 25% resistance, k? That means the debuff's going to be 75% as effective. So it's a case of multiplying the total negative DRR by 0.75 to get 75% of it. 100% - 25% = 75% or 1 - 0.25 = 0.75 (to get the modifier).
Although the formula is not actually shown in the podcast, while discussing debuffs Geko states that with the Dam Res formula you take the extra step of dividing the 1+SumOfAllDiminishedMags by 1+SumOfAllDiminishedMagDebuffs. Thus, we get the TDR (Total Damage Resistance) formula:
TDR = (-1 * ((1 / ((1 + DDRRP) / (1 + RDDRRN)) - 1)) * 100)
Thus, we see the SumOfAll is additionally being divided by the SumOfAllDebuffs. Note, once again mind you - I'm multiplying it by 100 just to get the percentage instead of decimal value (that 25% vs. 0.25 sort of thing).
So I basically just added what Hawk said about the resistance to the change in resistance and added the bit that Geko mentioned but did not show us the actual formula for...to get:
TDR = (-1 * ((1 / ((1 + (1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1 - (((1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1) / (1 + (DRRP / ((1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1)) + ((DRRP / ((1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1)) ^2)))) / (1 + (1 - (((-1 * ((1 / (1 + (1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1 - (((1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1) / (1 + (DRRP / ((1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1)) + ((DRRP / ((1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1)) ^2))))) - 1)) * 100) / 100) * (1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1 - (((1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1) / (1 + (DRRN / ((1 / (1 - MAX)) - 1)) + ((DRRN / ((1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1)) ^2)))))) - 1)) * 100)
Where again, I multiply by 100...blah, blah, blah.
Have to keep in mind, what Geko gave us for DR not taking into account debuffs was this formula:
Dam Res=-((1/(1+(1/(1-DamRes%Max))-1-(((1/(1- DamRes%Max))-1)/(1+(MAG/((1/(1- DamRes%Max))-1))+((MAG/((1/(1- DamRes%Max))-1))^2)))))-1)
Which somebody turned into this formula for us:
DR=(3*(0.25-(75/(150+DRM))^2))
The same should be able to be done for that hideous TDR formula that I have up there...math is not my thing though. As I said somewhere else, I took College Precalc in 1990...Calculus for Business & Social Sciences in 2005. That's it. I was an English Major (Technical & Professional Writing)...though one probably couldn't tell with the way I butcher the language in such an informal manner, lol.
I've actually got it broken down into an eight line LibreOffice Calc spreadsheet....
Max / 0.7500
DRRP / input value of the total positive DRR divided by 100 (for example: 0.4600)
DDRRP / =SUM((1/(1-C3))-1-(((1/(1- C3))-1)/(1+(C4/((1/(1- C3))-1))+((C4/((1/(1- C3))-1))^2))))
DRP / =SUM((-((1/(1+C5))-1))*100)
DRRN / input value of the total negative DRR divided by 100 (for example: 0.2000)
DDRRN / =SUM((1/(1-C3))-1-(((1/(1- C3))-1)/(1+(C7/((1/(1- C3))-1))+((C7/((1/(1- C3))-1))^2))))
RDDRRN / =SUM((1-(C6/100))*C8)
TDR / =SUM((-((1/((1+C5)/(1+C9))-1))*100))
So I just have to input C4 and C7...tada...I get my TDR value. For the example numbers above, I get a TDR of 21.6 - which matches the listed DR of 21.6% on the character sheet.
Edit: Needed to note, the DRRP/DRRN numbers...divide by 100 (taking say 17.5 to 0.175) before entering them in the formulas.
Have you ever considered that all those escorts getting easy spike kills are doing so because someone like me has already softened-up the map? So when Joe-Escort swoops in for his alpha, he's hitting an already wounded target that is being:
1. Debuffed (FOMM3, APA3, APO1)
2. Drained (7x Fleet Pols + Leech)
3. Hull-smashed (DEM3 + KCB + EPtW1)
4. Generally left wondering WTF is going on
But by all means, ignore me. In fact, when you see me on the map, pay me no mind at all. I'm just a slow, fat feddie cruiser that's only going to tickle your shields a bit and maybe heal a teammate.
And if you do find your shields and hull slowly disintegrating, don't look to the impotent FAHCR quietly maneuvering behind you. Look to the "tac-scort" half way across the map. Yeah, that's it - he must be the one killing you...and from 30K range! HAX, I tell you, HAXXX!!
Bottom Line: Your overconfidence is my best weapon. And no matter how much they tweak the game mechanics, Cryptic still can't nerf arrogance...
RCK
don't u think that those escorts are having a hard time killing the target cause you stacked all the resistences of the fleet shields and they have the same energy type than you? Trust me, is not nice having all the enemy team with 10 adapt resistences of your energy type before you fired a single shot.
- APA and APO don't debuff the target lol. FOMM is cleaned by TT, 99% of the escorts circle 2 copies of TT.
- DEM do a nice damage...over time. U won't kill good escots with damage over time, they will run everytime they are in trouble, and u won't be able of catch them with a crusier.
I run 7 polarized disruptor with leeach and flow caps at 9, and the drain is negible, everyone is running 6 in PI+leech+zero point. So unless your drain have a mag
I'm not overconfidence, i run all 3 setups: classic dhc escort, spike escort and bfaw aux2bat crusier, i'm just telling you that u are not as magic as you think, and you are not doing anything new or special as u suggested. And your build is not as effective as u think, is all relative, CAN be effective sometimes, it all depends, is situational, like anything else in PvP.
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
Au Contraire, mon Capitaine.
Most 'good' escorts use evasive + engine battery + APO to run, though some instead use deut surplus to stagger their escapes. Since the majority of my foes while pugging fall into this category, part of my build is specifically oriented towards catching these runners. Either with engine batteries and evasives myself, or with the impulse capacitance cell for overboost. Running from the fight is a long honoured escort tradition, but it has one major problem: If your enemy can pursue, you're usually boned.
And I can indeed pursue.
Good luck trying to pursue an escort with a crusier. If u are not in crusier (like i'm suspecting) then u missed the point of the conversation.
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
Nope, that's not what you said...but it's been the case for me more oft than not. It's far easier to catch an Escort than to catch a Cruiser...when the ships are built to run.
You cannot get weapon power past 125 with batteries or powers. The power levels are pretty hard capped. That is, any power (say, a beam) that calculates damage based on your current weapon power level will never deal damage based on anything more than 125.
If you activate a buff that gives you more than 125 power, the power is still there, and you can draw from it. So, lets say:
However, let say:
I'm pretty sure its working how its supposed to, but I haven't looked at that math in a long time. So there could be a problem, but I'm pretty sure its WAD. Haven't really thought about whether that should be changed or not.
Speechless. Not b/c of anything in this post, but ... um ... err ... huh?
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
OMG! after all this time there has been an official comment on overcapping, and it basically explained exactly how i explain it!
125- effect cap, damage multiplier cap
invisible power beyond 125- over caped, used up before the power below 125
im glad to hear thats working as intended
Actually there are qualifiers in there, but I'm still a bit stunned. I think dstahl has posted more in this forum ... and ... still um?
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
So why cant you d the same for cannons then?
This is absolutely not how weapon power is working. I can pop a weapon battery to get over 200 power, and with a theoretical maximum weapons drain of 64 I should never see my weapon energy dip below 125 -- but it does, albeit briefly.
To the extent that I understand it:
125 is the damage cap.
135 is the power cap.
Additional weapons energy after that helps to regen power during firing cycles, as does higher power regen.
i do the same for cannons, im not sure what everyone else's problem is, saying it doesn't work for them. the problem is its hard to boost weapons energy levels high enough without high end EPtW, but that will also skew the test with its damage bonus. no ones 'tests' showing no real difference i take to seriously. with DHCs though, due to the way they seem to return energy, it almost makes no difference if your at a minimal overcap level or not. for turrets, singles and DCs with their more beam array like fireing cycles, though 3 seconds instead of 5, it does make a difference. i see it when ever i overcap single cannon boats.
ah yes, batteries. every time i use weapons batteries in testing nothing makes sense. im pretty sure those dont work past 125 or something. similarly to BO being bugged past 125, it takes ALL your overcaped power, AND -50 starting at 125.
Then you would think that this would make an Engineer still useful because of EPS...
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Very interesting... they seem to do something past 125 because there's less drain with a weapon battery applied.
Does anyone want to do the same test without using batteries? If not, I will but I probably won't be able to get around to it until tomorrow.
engeis would be great if for them the effect cap was not 125/130 on everything. i haven't been harping on and on about that or anything, :rolleyes: as a way to make them just flat more powerful like they need to be.
Testing with Beams and Cannons showed different results for me. With Cannons, I hit that 135 and that's pretty much it. With Beams, I've gone to 180+ and still saw a difference. I couldn't go higher though to see if I ran into the same thing with Beams at some point that I did with Cannons at 135.
Admittedly, I didn't test it with a Weapon Battery for the Beams...which should have been obvious on my part. Hrmmm, I just never use them - so I didn't even think about them.
I know there was some recent discussion about EPS and Power Regen...and that the Overcap affected that, but testing showed the same results on Power Regen even when not Overcapped.
It gets further complicated by weapons ending up out of sync and changing the manner in which the drain, regen, return all work together...meh. I've always found Weapon Drain math to be a PITA...c'mon, in a game where you can turn fast enough to make it look like you fired the BO aft - it's all going to be so theoretical that it's going to be rough to match it up to the application.
edit: lordhavelock would probably be a good guy to hit up on it, mind you...
I get the same results meaning significantly lower ceiling "soft cap" on dual heavies compared to beams. Even use the useless weapon eng consoles to test to "inflate" weapons power. Beams simply "soft cap" a lot higher resulting in higher sustained damage.
Mind you not complaining about this imbalance. Beams are back but might need slight down tuning.....
I ran several tests (all listed here), but for example, here are the details from one of them:
(I never did get around to testing Beams, all my play time has since been taken up with the CE Event. :rolleyes:)
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
If one ignores drain completely, then you're looking at DHCs doing 1.74 times the damage per volley of an Array - 1.45 times the DPS. That ratio's consistent through skills, mark, rarity, consoles, and generic buffs - you get into things like BO/FAW vs. CRF/CSV, and I couldn't tell...never tested that.
4x DHCs/3 Turrets vs. 8x Beams is still a 1.03875:1 DPV ratio in favor of the Cannons. Without the option to overcap and stave off the drain, Beams would be even worse because of that loss of Weapon Power.
Course, that overcap came at a cost. I used the past tense there, because today's STO bleeds power out the wahzoo. There used to be a cost - you'd have to give up Shield/Engine/Aux power to get that overcap for the damage. Now? Hrmm, yeah.
So you've got the boats that already have more survivability, not really giving up any survivability, better able to run abilities to increase damage even more, sporting 250 arcs instead of 45 arcs, etc, etc, etc...
...lol, this is starting to look like I'm saying Beams are OP. I'm going to smoke.
So, wait, you mean EPS Power Transfer from an Engi doesn't add into Overcapping?
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
You are right, ive tested extensively myself too and DHC/turret build gains a tiny bit more dps (barely measurable) until like 134/135, after that the damage drops off again, its reallye erratic, almost makes no sense.
Beams.. well we all know that already.
Working as intended?
Hearing some more from the balance Guru himself, could really change the debates in this subsection quite a bit.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
js it beams, or tac + beams? *puts on mel gibson rubber mask* ENGIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
well, only weapon overcaping does anything. it adds to that sure. im saying eng captains should have a higher effect cap then the other 2 captains. 125 is the max effect cap, max power multiplier. 130 with certain cores. eng should have max of say 135, and with cores 140.
I wish I could sticky just this post.
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