"But doesn't Cryptic tell us this isn't the case?" I'm not sure that's a sentence, so I'm not sure how to respond. But I think I understand what you are referring to.
You cannot get weapon power past 125 with batteries or powers. The power levels are pretty hard capped. That is, any power (say, a beam) that calculates damage based on your current weapon power level will never deal damage based on anything more than 125.
If you activate a buff that gives you more than 125 power, the power is still there, and you can draw from it. So, lets say:
You are at 50/125.
You activate a buff that gives you 50 power.
You will be at 100/125.
Weapons fire based on 100 weapon power.
If multiple weapons are fired, power will start to drain, and all weapons will subsequently deal less power.
However, let say:
You are at 100/125.
You activate a buff that gives you 50 power.
You will be at 125/125.
Weapons fire based on 125 weapon power.
If multiple weapons are fired, power will start to drain. However, you still have 25 unclaimed power from your buff, so that fills in. Your weapon power level wont drop below 125 until you deplete that buff. Once that happens, then power levels will drop below 125 power.
I'm pretty sure its working how its supposed to, but I haven't looked at that math in a long time. So there could be a problem, but I'm pretty sure its WAD. Haven't really thought about whether that should be changed or not.
Im still not satisfied with his reply as he never mentioned beams behave differently then cannons in this regard thus my conclusion for now is that this was unintended behavior/side effect and was never ment to work this way. And apparently they dont know how it works themselves..
i do the same for cannons, im not sure what everyone else's problem is, saying it doesn't work for them. the problem is its hard to boost weapons energy levels high enough without high end EPtW, but that will also skew the test with its damage bonus. no ones 'tests' showing no real difference i take to seriously. with DHCs though, due to the way they seem to return energy, it almost makes no difference if your at a minimal overcap level or not. for turrets, singles and DCs with their more beam array like fireing cycles, though 3 seconds instead of 5, it does make a difference. i see it when ever i overcap single cannon boats.
i'll get back to you. ive got totally different results over the years, and its sort of been quite a wile since i really payed close attention. i cant keep strait what my last findings were for DHCs specifically lol
I asked Virusdancer about this a few weeks ago and he ran some tests, I'm not sure what thread it was I'll see if I can find it later. From my understanding DHC benefit from a little overcap, but not nearly as much as beams and don't need to be overcapped nearly as high.
If multiple weapons are fired, power will start to drain. However, you still have 25 unclaimed power from your buff, so that fills in. Your weapon power level wont drop below 125 until you deplete that buff. Once that happens, then power levels will drop below 125 power.
I'm pretty sure its working how its supposed to, but I haven't looked at that math in a long time. So there could be a problem, but I'm pretty sure its WAD. Haven't really thought about whether that should be changed or not.
This is not quite how it works, I'm afraid. You say that 'weapon power level wont drop below 125 until you deplete that [extra power]', but it does.
When you are at 125 power with 25 unclaimed, the drain takes from the 125 first, and then the 25 flows back in afterwards, at a rate determined by your ships power transfer rate. This means it takes time for overcapped power to re-assert itself. This explains why cannons have little or no benefit from overcapping (they fire before the bonus energy can flow back in), why beams benefit the most (their lengthy firing cycle allows most or all extra energy to come back before they are finished even with low transfer rate), why beam boats stacking EPS consoles are reported as stronger (4 EPS consoles will let overflow energy surge in almost instantly), and why people will say that it just plain doesn't work with beam overload (obviously if a massive drain occurs in a single tick, the system as I've described it here can do nothing about it.)
If you intended to have it working as you described it in your post, you should go back and have a look at it. I'd honestly prefer it your way, than how it is.
This is not quite how it works, I'm afraid. You say that 'weapon power level wont drop below 125 until you deplete that [extra power]', but it does.
When you are at 125 power with 25 unclaimed, the drain takes from the 125 first, and then the 25 flows back in afterwards, at a rate determined by your ships power transfer rate. This means it takes time for overcapped power to re-assert itself. This explains why cannons have little or no benefit from overcapping (they fire before the bonus energy can flow back in), why beams benefit the most (their lengthy firing cycle allows most or all extra energy to come back before they are finished even with low transfer rate), why beam boats stacking EPS consoles are reported as stronger (4 EPS consoles will let overflow energy surge in almost instantly), and why people will say that it just plain doesn't work with beam overload (obviously if a massive drain occurs in a single tick, the system as I've described it here can do nothing about it.)
If you intended to have it working as you described it in your post, you should go back and have a look at it. I'd honestly prefer it your way, than how it is.
This matches my findings.
For a simple test, equip three beams on an escort of different energy types. Stack consoles/buffs/whatever to maximum weapons power, atleast 155.
Then notice how the third energy type hits for less damage. Heck you could even do it with turrets.
This is not quite how it works, I'm afraid. You say that 'weapon power level wont drop below 125 until you deplete that [extra power]', but it does.
When you are at 125 power with 25 unclaimed, the drain takes from the 125 first, and then the 25 flows back in afterwards, at a rate determined by your ships power transfer rate. This means it takes time for overcapped power to re-assert itself. This explains why cannons have little or no benefit from overcapping (they fire before the bonus energy can flow back in), why beams benefit the most (their lengthy firing cycle allows most or all extra energy to come back before they are finished even with low transfer rate), why beam boats stacking EPS consoles are reported as stronger (4 EPS consoles will let overflow energy surge in almost instantly), and why people will say that it just plain doesn't work with beam overload (obviously if a massive drain occurs in a single tick, the system as I've described it here can do nothing about it.)
If you intended to have it working as you described it in your post, you should go back and have a look at it. I'd honestly prefer it your way, than how it is.
This is correct. From extensive experience as a Eng captain in a 7 array beam boat, you can overcap as much as you want, but when that initial weapon drain hits, it slices it off 125 no matter what you have.
THEN, it will immediately start filling back up to account for your overflow. The third somewhat and always the fourth shot will be back up to full power but the second one is where it hurts the most.
I'm not sure what the issue is here, my build is very much like you describe (EPS, EPtWIII, NI, RMC, FAWIII & FAWII) and I can do some decent damage sure, but my tac spaming CSV does way more damage, particularly because the shots aren't divided up between targets like FAW (even with an extra shot), but every enemy in the cone is hit, and bonus damage to boot. Most MMO skills that go AOE do less damage than a single target strike, CSV on the other hand does a damage boost to even a single target and is full blown AOE.
I asked Virusdancer about this a few weeks ago and he ran some tests, I'm not sure what thread it was I'll see if I can find it later. From my understanding DHC benefit from a little overcap, but not nearly as much as beams and don't need to be overcapped nearly as high.
Would one say overcapping is the repair for the poor power drain of beams then?
i'll get back to you. ive got totally different results over the years, and its sort of been quite a wile since i really payed close attention. i cant keep strait what my last findings were for DHCs specifically lol
No worries. I have issues keeping straight what I posted just last week much less months ago.
It would not surprise me if DHCs get much less a benefit from overcapping versus other weapons like beams, turrets or single cannons.
It may be a fair trade off for DHCs having such a good energy nechanic and high damage.
This is not quite how it works, I'm afraid. You say that 'weapon power level wont drop below 125 until you deplete that [extra power]', but it does.
When you are at 125 power with 25 unclaimed, the drain takes from the 125 first, and then the 25 flows back in afterwards, at a rate determined by your ships power transfer rate. This means it takes time for overcapped power to re-assert itself. This explains why cannons have little or no benefit from overcapping (they fire before the bonus energy can flow back in), why beams benefit the most (their lengthy firing cycle allows most or all extra energy to come back before they are finished even with low transfer rate), why beam boats stacking EPS consoles are reported as stronger (4 EPS consoles will let overflow energy surge in almost instantly), and why people will say that it just plain doesn't work with beam overload (obviously if a massive drain occurs in a single tick, the system as I've described it here can do nothing about it.)
If you intended to have it working as you described it in your post, you should go back and have a look at it. I'd honestly prefer it your way, than how it is.
This um...doesn't match any of my testing. 70-80 overcap, there's nothing below 125. 50-60, can run into sync issues where you lose arc and the first weapon is no longer the first so it drains as well if arc is acquired again at a specific point. At that point, yes - the 10.5 to 12.5 EPS (no consoles) takes you back to 125 in less than a second.
The thing to keep in mind about why Beams benefit the most, is that the benefit is not a boost to damage - it is a boost against the loss of damage. Those beam firing cycles create a larger loss of weapon power - takes longer to get it back - thus more damage is lost. Cannons don't lose as much, not as much is lost, thus the benefit is less. Don't lose as much, can't benefit as much...cause you're still capped at 125.
It pretty much works as Geko described it...outside of sync issues, arc issues, drains, etc, etc, etc. I run beams on 5 of my 9 guys. They all work along the lines of what Geko said.
Would one say overcapping is the repair for the poor power drain of beams then?
It provides an opportunity cost for players to offset some of the loss of damage. That opportunity cost is not what it was, the game bleeds power these days - but that would appear to be the design intent.
If you're overcapping, you're giving up power from somewhere else. I'll be lazy and quote Bort talking about Tyken's...heh...
Here's a quick run-down of how much of an impact losing 10 power from all subsystems can have on a particular ship (player or critter):
WEAPONS: -20% to all non-base weapon damage.
SHIELDS: -40% shield regeneration, and about -3% shield DR.
ENGINES: -20% base speed (this can also reduce Defense value, if the player's speed is dropped enough)
AUX: Decreases science potency (varying amounts), stealth values, perception values and hangar recharge timers
So while overcapping isn't taking 10 from every system (and obviously not from Weapons), taking 10 from any of the other three to put into weapons to overcap in the hopes of staving off the drain...is an opportunity cost.
You're making a sacrifice of something for something to avoid something...or you're not, you're not overcapping - thus instead sacrificing damage for one of the others - so it's still an opportunity cost.
But again, the game bleeds power now...so it's not the opportunity cost it once was.
This um...doesn't match any of my testing. 70-80 overcap, there's nothing below 125. 50-60, can run into sync issues where you lose arc and the first weapon is no longer the first so it drains as well if arc is acquired again at a specific point. At that point, yes - the 10.5 to 12.5 EPS (no consoles) takes you back to 125 in less than a second.
The thing to keep in mind about why Beams benefit the most, is that the benefit is not a boost to damage - it is a boost against the loss of damage. Those beam firing cycles create a larger loss of weapon power - takes longer to get it back - thus more damage is lost. Cannons don't lose as much, not as much is lost, thus the benefit is less. Don't lose as much, can't benefit as much...cause you're still capped at 125.
It pretty much works as Geko described it...outside of sync issues, arc issues, drains, etc, etc, etc. I run beams on 5 of my 9 guys. They all work along the lines of what Geko said.
Are you sure you aren't running NI doing that test? I just took my Dread Carrier in to try this out, and I can guarantee you will see that initial energy drop no matter what your overcap.
- My weapon power level runs 125/100 with no buffs.
- Fire my 4 forward polaron arrays and cutting beam, and I see a drop as one would expect.
- Activate EPS III (+30.9), EPtWIII (+46.8), and RMC (+35) [EPS Manifold Efficiency here]
- At a minimum, my "overcap" should be 237.7
Yet if I fire those same 4 arrays and cutting beam, I still see a power drop into the 90s. It does quickly fill back up, but the second volley of shots is weaker.
All of the damage values are what you would expect. My first shot at the natural 125 is about the same damage as my first shot at the "overbuffed" 237.7+. A slight damage increase from the EPtW damage buff, unrelated to power.
Are you sure you aren't running NI doing that test? I just took my Dread Carrier in to try this out, and I can guarantee you will see that initial energy drop no matter what your overcap.
- My weapon power level runs 125/100 with no buffs.
- Fire my 4 forward polaron arrays and cutting beam, and I see a drop as one would expect.
- Activate EPS III (+30.9), EPtWIII (+46.8), and RMC (+35) [EPS Manifold Efficiency here]
- At a minimum, my "overcap" should be 237.7
Yet if I fire those same 4 arrays and cutting beam, I still see a power drop into the 90s. It does quickly fill back up, but the second volley of shots is weaker.
All of the damage values are what you would expect. My first shot at the natural 125 is about the same damage as my first shot at the "overbuffed" 237.7+. A slight damage increase from the EPtW damage buff, unrelated to power.
He will drop below 125 once enough weapons have fired to go beyond his overcap.
I just took Notus into a CE, doing the broadside flying around the Entity. With just the EPS Manifold and EPtW2, he did not drop below 89 firing 8 beams. With EPS3, he did not drop below 115. That's in line with 158 - 70 = 88 and 189 - 70 = 119. Well, that's not entirely true, like I mentioned earlier - if the arcs get dorked and the first weapon doesn't think it's first again, you can end up eating an additional 10 drain. During two turns (I hate flying into the atmosphere and the white-screening), he dropped to 77 and 109.
I'm not sure how you're dropping from 237 down to 90ish. Like I said, all of my guys have and continue to follow things the way as Geko outlined them. Hrmm, let me go back and note each of their EPS rates. None of them sport any EPS consoles though.
Yes, please do. What ever it is you are doing that is keeping the power levels at 125, I want in! My thought was power transfer rate as well, that perhaps your transfer rate is so high, the game does not even have time to display the drop and recharge, but you seem to say that is not the case.
Are your beam weapons on autofire or do you spam the space button? I've noticed the autofire is the most well timed simultaneous firing of all the beams, but also shows the greatest power drain.
All said and done, my weapon power at setting of 50 is 92. So for arguments sake let's say my 125/100 is already overcapped at 140/100.
The simplest test of all, just did it in Battleship Royal Rumble.
Base of 140/100.
EPS, EPtWIII, RMC for +112.7
Total w/ "overcap": 252.7
* Start firing one polaron array. No power drain as exepcted of course.
* Fire the second polaron array. Briefly power reads as 115/100 before jumping back to 125.
This is indicative of the behavior I am seeing, where power is shaved off of 125 regardless of your "overcap" and then begins to recharge to what your resting point "should be". It happens relatively quickly, are you sure you aren't looking down a second or two later and seeing the recharged value?
Also, just to be totally clear, all of these beams that fire when I'm reading 125/100 with a bunch of overcap, are hitting for what you would expect from a 125 power beam. There is no "super powered" beam attacks that actually are buffed directly by power levels of 252.7 like folks have suggested elsewhere in the thread... I would notice for sure :P
Also, just to be totally clear, all of these beams that fire when I'm reading 125/100 with a bunch of overcap, are hitting for what you would expect from a 125 power beam. There is no "super powered" beam attacks that actually are buffed directly by power levels of 252.7 like folks have suggested elsewhere in the thread... I would notice for sure :P
Heh, definitely - I try to point that out as well - it's fighting off the loss of damage (thus gaining damage) not directly gaining damage. You're still at 125.
For example...say we had a common Mk X Array with the standard 9 Weapon/9 Energy - no consoles or anything else.
@125 Weapon Power ~747.3 DPV @115 Weapon Power ~687.6 DPV @105 Weapon Power ~627.8 DPV @95 Weapon Power ~568.0 DPV @85 Weapon Power ~508.2 DPV @75 Weapon Power ~484.4 DPV
It's not a case that it's anything like...
@135 Weapon Power ~807.1 DPV @175 Weapon Power ~1046.3 DPV
...cause you're still @125 when you overcap. Overcapping just helps you not lose damage...er...thus gaining damage you would have otherwise lost...but er...not new damage that didn't exist.
"But doesn't Cryptic tell us this isn't the case?" I'm not sure that's a sentence, so I'm not sure how to respond. But I think I understand what you are referring to.
You cannot get weapon power past 125 with batteries or powers. The power levels are pretty hard capped. That is, any power (say, a beam) that calculates damage based on your current weapon power level will never deal damage based on anything more than 125.
If you activate a buff that gives you more than 125 power, the power is still there, and you can draw from it. So, lets say:
You are at 50/125.
You activate a buff that gives you 50 power.
You will be at 100/125.
Weapons fire based on 100 weapon power.
If multiple weapons are fired, power will start to drain, and all weapons will subsequently deal less power.
However, let say:
You are at 100/125.
You activate a buff that gives you 50 power.
You will be at 125/125.
Weapons fire based on 125 weapon power.
If multiple weapons are fired, power will start to drain. However, you still have 25 unclaimed power from your buff, so that fills in. Your weapon power level wont drop below 125 until you deplete that buff. Once that happens, then power levels will drop below 125 power.
I'm pretty sure its working how its supposed to, but I haven't looked at that math in a long time. So there could be a problem, but I'm pretty sure its WAD. Haven't really thought about whether that should be changed or not.
Hi Capt Gecko,
Thanks for shedding some light on this long, long, debated topic.
What are your thoughts on Cannons (single or dual) not seeming to be receiving the same benefit that beams (single or dual) do with regard to the amount of usable "unclaimed" power?
Thanks for shedding some light on this long, long, debated topic.
What are your thoughts on Cannons (single or dual) not seeming to be receiving the same benefit that beams (single or dual) do with regard to the amount of usable "unclaimed" power?
Thanks.
I know this wasn't aimed at me, and I'm certainly not the overwhelming authority on overcapping, but isn't the difference in "usable" power merely the difference in firing duration? What I mean is that beam weapons seem to take longer to actually complete their firing sequence than cannon weapons, so tend trigger the "when fired with other weapons" drain effect more often, thereby drawing on a greater volume of weapon power. DHC's take the faster firing sequence one step further, since they only fire 2 pulses per volley.
Actually... virusdancer, do you have any numbers on the firing patterns of each of the weapon types? Mostly, how many seconds the firing duration is and how many seconds the cycling duration between firing is, by weapon type. I know you love the numbers
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
Actually... virusdancer, do you have any numbers on the firing patterns of each of the weapon types? Mostly, how many seconds the firing duration is and how many seconds the cycling duration between firing is, by weapon type. I know you love the numbers
Cannons are supposed to be x/3s and Beams x/5s. This reminds me though, I saw something in testing for another thread that kind of threw me...and I forgot to go back and look at it (pesky Cataclysm event, lol)...
Obviously the time before the first shot's not displayed, but you've basically got..
00.0 Trigger
00.5 First Shot of First Cycle
01.0 Second Shot of First Cycle
03.7 First Shot of Second Cycle
04.2 Second Shot of Second Cycle
And I'm curious why there's an additional 0.2s delay, because it gives the appearance of the cycle being 2/3.2 rather than 2/3 (which the DPV/DPS numbers support). Wonder if it was changed...hilbert might know with his oodles and oodles of data.
Cannons really aren't my thing, and it wasn't until not that long ago that I even looked at info for them when it comes to power.
In general, to be blunt, I'm not really sure about how the drain return aspects work other than to parrot things I've seen said...outside of things like the EPS return part....but if there's actual weapon return on its own? Don't know - have just seen it said.
Say we go with one of my guys and that average 10.5s/ return from EPS and look at the following: 4x DHC/3x Turret vs. 8x Arrays where the "first" is free.
125/100 Weapon Power
4x DHCs/3x Turrets would be -60 power if one of the DHCs was counted as the first weapon.
8x Arrays would be -70 power with one of the Arrays counted as the first weapon.
If it was just 10.5s return from EPS, then we'd see the following, no?
125 - 60 = 65...75.5...86...96.5 at the end of the 3s cycle.
125 - 70 = 50...60.5...71...81.5...92...102.5 at the end of the 5s cycle.
That's not what we see though, is it? So it makes sense that there is a weapon return value working as well as the EPS return, no? Course, that's where folks have gotten into the discussion that the overcap tied in with the EPS return results in that return - but you see the same returns with and without overcap.
Given that pause at the end of the firing cycle, the return happening somewhere between that and the next shot; is where it gets into that longer wait on the return for the Beams than Cannons. Basically the less overcap needed for the Cannons because of the less potential time/chance to be below that 125 Weapon Power.
But that's all water cooler talk instead of blackboard/spreadsheet warrior stuff...and one of those things where I wonder what hilbert and lordhavelock could chime in with regarding the actual workings...like I said, I can only parrot certain things because I have by no means done extensive testing on them. Heh, I'm lazy - I just run massively overcapped beams and don't worry about it.
Is it worth it to run EPS consoles on a beam boat in order to maximize DPS?
^^^ This! Would love to get a straight answer...
Also, is there any way to observe power levels that doesn't involve watching the tooltip? A logging mechanism of some kind? Can we tease this info from CombatLog?
First person to write such a utility will become an instant hero to anyone struggling to maximize beam DPS.
I wonder if its practically possible to keep your weapon power at 115/125 without using the cutter then. Im often capped at 175 now but with 8 beams i still see drops to 90 ish. My EPS flow speed is like around 210%
I wonder if its practically possible to keep your weapon power at 115/125 without using the cutter then. Im often capped at 175 now but with 8 beams i still see drops to 90 ish. My EPS flow speed is like around 210%
Unfortunately you will always see that energy drop, regardless of how much extra power you have. The only way to keep power levels high is drain resistance like NI. Nothing else, all the extra power in the world will not help, one of the reason engs/cruisers are inferior to the tac cannon scatter volley madness.
ah yes, batteries. every time i use weapons batteries in testing nothing makes sense. im pretty sure those dont work past 125 or something. similarly to BO being bugged past 125, it takes ALL your overcaped power, AND -50 starting at 125.
Didn't they say BO basically works differently from anything else, in that it actually consumes power, intead of 'reserving' it?
Didn't they say BO basically works differently from anything else, in that it actually consumes power, intead of 'reserving' it?
its exactly like getting hit with any other energy drain, only in this case its a -50. and you get that power back at your EPS transfer speed. so an EPS console should help normalize your DPS after a BO faster
Comments
Makes sense to me. I like it this way.
R.I.P
single cannons, dual cannons, dhcs, turrets,...
but only beams are affected.
So overcapping is pointless for DHCs?
R.I.P
i'll get back to you. ive got totally different results over the years, and its sort of been quite a wile since i really payed close attention. i cant keep strait what my last findings were for DHCs specifically lol
I asked Virusdancer about this a few weeks ago and he ran some tests, I'm not sure what thread it was I'll see if I can find it later. From my understanding DHC benefit from a little overcap, but not nearly as much as beams and don't need to be overcapped nearly as high.
This is not quite how it works, I'm afraid. You say that 'weapon power level wont drop below 125 until you deplete that [extra power]', but it does.
When you are at 125 power with 25 unclaimed, the drain takes from the 125 first, and then the 25 flows back in afterwards, at a rate determined by your ships power transfer rate. This means it takes time for overcapped power to re-assert itself. This explains why cannons have little or no benefit from overcapping (they fire before the bonus energy can flow back in), why beams benefit the most (their lengthy firing cycle allows most or all extra energy to come back before they are finished even with low transfer rate), why beam boats stacking EPS consoles are reported as stronger (4 EPS consoles will let overflow energy surge in almost instantly), and why people will say that it just plain doesn't work with beam overload (obviously if a massive drain occurs in a single tick, the system as I've described it here can do nothing about it.)
If you intended to have it working as you described it in your post, you should go back and have a look at it. I'd honestly prefer it your way, than how it is.
This matches my findings.
For a simple test, equip three beams on an escort of different energy types. Stack consoles/buffs/whatever to maximum weapons power, atleast 155.
Then notice how the third energy type hits for less damage. Heck you could even do it with turrets.
This is correct. From extensive experience as a Eng captain in a 7 array beam boat, you can overcap as much as you want, but when that initial weapon drain hits, it slices it off 125 no matter what you have.
THEN, it will immediately start filling back up to account for your overflow. The third somewhat and always the fourth shot will be back up to full power but the second one is where it hurts the most.
I'm not sure what the issue is here, my build is very much like you describe (EPS, EPtWIII, NI, RMC, FAWIII & FAWII) and I can do some decent damage sure, but my tac spaming CSV does way more damage, particularly because the shots aren't divided up between targets like FAW (even with an extra shot), but every enemy in the cone is hit, and bonus damage to boot. Most MMO skills that go AOE do less damage than a single target strike, CSV on the other hand does a damage boost to even a single target and is full blown AOE.
Would one say overcapping is the repair for the poor power drain of beams then?
R.I.P
No worries. I have issues keeping straight what I posted just last week much less months ago.
It would not surprise me if DHCs get much less a benefit from overcapping versus other weapons like beams, turrets or single cannons.
It may be a fair trade off for DHCs having such a good energy nechanic and high damage.
R.I.P
This um...doesn't match any of my testing. 70-80 overcap, there's nothing below 125. 50-60, can run into sync issues where you lose arc and the first weapon is no longer the first so it drains as well if arc is acquired again at a specific point. At that point, yes - the 10.5 to 12.5 EPS (no consoles) takes you back to 125 in less than a second.
The thing to keep in mind about why Beams benefit the most, is that the benefit is not a boost to damage - it is a boost against the loss of damage. Those beam firing cycles create a larger loss of weapon power - takes longer to get it back - thus more damage is lost. Cannons don't lose as much, not as much is lost, thus the benefit is less. Don't lose as much, can't benefit as much...cause you're still capped at 125.
It pretty much works as Geko described it...outside of sync issues, arc issues, drains, etc, etc, etc. I run beams on 5 of my 9 guys. They all work along the lines of what Geko said.
It provides an opportunity cost for players to offset some of the loss of damage. That opportunity cost is not what it was, the game bleeds power these days - but that would appear to be the design intent.
If you're overcapping, you're giving up power from somewhere else. I'll be lazy and quote Bort talking about Tyken's...heh...
So while overcapping isn't taking 10 from every system (and obviously not from Weapons), taking 10 from any of the other three to put into weapons to overcap in the hopes of staving off the drain...is an opportunity cost.
You're making a sacrifice of something for something to avoid something...or you're not, you're not overcapping - thus instead sacrificing damage for one of the others - so it's still an opportunity cost.
But again, the game bleeds power now...so it's not the opportunity cost it once was.
Are you sure you aren't running NI doing that test? I just took my Dread Carrier in to try this out, and I can guarantee you will see that initial energy drop no matter what your overcap.
- My weapon power level runs 125/100 with no buffs.
- Fire my 4 forward polaron arrays and cutting beam, and I see a drop as one would expect.
- Activate EPS III (+30.9), EPtWIII (+46.8), and RMC (+35) [EPS Manifold Efficiency here]
- At a minimum, my "overcap" should be 237.7
Yet if I fire those same 4 arrays and cutting beam, I still see a power drop into the 90s. It does quickly fill back up, but the second volley of shots is weaker.
All of the damage values are what you would expect. My first shot at the natural 125 is about the same damage as my first shot at the "overbuffed" 237.7+. A slight damage increase from the EPtW damage buff, unrelated to power.
Plague (Eng) / Chel Grett
Base Weapon Power = (126)/100
+EPtS1 (EPS Manifold +10) = (136)/100
+EPtW1 (+26.2) = (163)/100
+MACO 5stack (+10) = (173)/100
+EPS3 (+34.3) = (207)/100
+OWA (+10) = (217)/100
EPS Rate: 12.5/s
Fore: Omega, Experimental, 2x Rom Array
Aft: Hyper, Cutting Beam, 2x Rom Array
Once he gets the 5stack, he doesn't drop below 125 without outside influence or the goofed arcs I mentioned.
Prophet (Eng) / JHEC
Base Weapon Power = (129)/100
+EPtS1 (EPS Manifold +10) = (139)/100
+EPtW1 (+24.4) = (154)/100
+AtB1 (Avg +21.7) = (176)/100
+Leech 8stack (+17.6) = (193)/100
+EPS3 (+32.8) = (226)/100
+OWA (+10) = (236)/100
EPS Rate: 11,3/s
Fore: Cutting Beam, Tet DBB, 2x R-Tet Array
Aft: Web Mine, 2x R-Tet Array
Broadside is covered before Leech.
Saraquael (Tac) / Assault
w/ [E->W] Core
Base Weapon Power = 121/100
+EPtW1 (+23.2) = (144)/100
+AtB1 (Avg +13.8) = (159)/100
+WCE DOFF (+25) = (186)/100
EPS Rate: 10.5/s
Fore: 4x Polaron Array
Aft: 4x Polaron Array
She will drop below 125 once enough weapons have fired to go beyond her overcap.
Boreas (Eng) / Heavy Retro
Base Weapon Power = 112/100
+EPtS1 (EPS Manifold +10) = 122/100
+EPtW2 (+30.9) = (153)/100
+EPS3 (+31.8) = (184)/100
EPS Rate: 10.5/s
Fore: Elachi Array, Nanite Array, Polarized Disruptor Array, Plasma-Disruptor Array
Aft: Elachi Array, Nanite Array, 2x Plasma-Disruptor Array
He will drop below 125 once enough weapons have fired to go beyond his overcap.
Notus (Eng) / K't'inga Retro
Base Weapon Power = 117/100
+EPtS1 (EPS Manifold +10) = 127/100
+EPtW2 (+30.9) = (158)/100
+EPS3 (+31.8) = (189)/100
EPS Rate: 10.5/s
Fore: Elachi Array, Nanite Array, Polarized Disruptor Array, Plasma-Disruptor Array
Aft: Elachi Array, Nanite Array, Polarized Disruptor Array, Plasma-Disruptor Array
He will drop below 125 once enough weapons have fired to go beyond his overcap.
I just took Notus into a CE, doing the broadside flying around the Entity. With just the EPS Manifold and EPtW2, he did not drop below 89 firing 8 beams. With EPS3, he did not drop below 115. That's in line with 158 - 70 = 88 and 189 - 70 = 119. Well, that's not entirely true, like I mentioned earlier - if the arcs get dorked and the first weapon doesn't think it's first again, you can end up eating an additional 10 drain. During two turns (I hate flying into the atmosphere and the white-screening), he dropped to 77 and 109.
I'm not sure how you're dropping from 237 down to 90ish. Like I said, all of my guys have and continue to follow things the way as Geko outlined them. Hrmm, let me go back and note each of their EPS rates. None of them sport any EPS consoles though.
Yes, please do. What ever it is you are doing that is keeping the power levels at 125, I want in! My thought was power transfer rate as well, that perhaps your transfer rate is so high, the game does not even have time to display the drop and recharge, but you seem to say that is not the case.
Are your beam weapons on autofire or do you spam the space button? I've noticed the autofire is the most well timed simultaneous firing of all the beams, but also shows the greatest power drain.
My Transfer Rate is 9.7/sec, no consoles as well.
Jem'Hadar Combat Engines +5
Assim. Console +5
Starship Weapon Perf (level6)
Starship Warp Pot (level6)
All said and done, my weapon power at setting of 50 is 92. So for arguments sake let's say my 125/100 is already overcapped at 140/100.
The simplest test of all, just did it in Battleship Royal Rumble.
Base of 140/100.
EPS, EPtWIII, RMC for +112.7
Total w/ "overcap": 252.7
* Start firing one polaron array. No power drain as exepcted of course.
* Fire the second polaron array. Briefly power reads as 115/100 before jumping back to 125.
This is indicative of the behavior I am seeing, where power is shaved off of 125 regardless of your "overcap" and then begins to recharge to what your resting point "should be". It happens relatively quickly, are you sure you aren't looking down a second or two later and seeing the recharged value?
Also, just to be totally clear, all of these beams that fire when I'm reading 125/100 with a bunch of overcap, are hitting for what you would expect from a 125 power beam. There is no "super powered" beam attacks that actually are buffed directly by power levels of 252.7 like folks have suggested elsewhere in the thread... I would notice for sure :P
Technically, both. They're on autofire but I've also got the standard spacebar thing going with variations of:
space "GenSendMessage HUD_Root FirePhasers $$ +power_exec Distribute_Shields"
space "GenSendMessage HUD_Root FireTorps $$ +power_exec Distribute_Shields"
space "GenSendMessage HUD_Root FireAll $$ +power_exec Distribute_Shields"
Heh, definitely - I try to point that out as well - it's fighting off the loss of damage (thus gaining damage) not directly gaining damage. You're still at 125.
For example...say we had a common Mk X Array with the standard 9 Weapon/9 Energy - no consoles or anything else.
@125 Weapon Power ~747.3 DPV
@115 Weapon Power ~687.6 DPV
@105 Weapon Power ~627.8 DPV
@95 Weapon Power ~568.0 DPV
@85 Weapon Power ~508.2 DPV
@75 Weapon Power ~484.4 DPV
It's not a case that it's anything like...
@135 Weapon Power ~807.1 DPV
@175 Weapon Power ~1046.3 DPV
...cause you're still @125 when you overcap. Overcapping just helps you not lose damage...er...thus gaining damage you would have otherwise lost...but er...not new damage that didn't exist.
Please ignore this post. :P
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
Hi Capt Gecko,
Thanks for shedding some light on this long, long, debated topic.
What are your thoughts on Cannons (single or dual) not seeming to be receiving the same benefit that beams (single or dual) do with regard to the amount of usable "unclaimed" power?
Thanks.
I know this wasn't aimed at me, and I'm certainly not the overwhelming authority on overcapping, but isn't the difference in "usable" power merely the difference in firing duration? What I mean is that beam weapons seem to take longer to actually complete their firing sequence than cannon weapons, so tend trigger the "when fired with other weapons" drain effect more often, thereby drawing on a greater volume of weapon power. DHC's take the faster firing sequence one step further, since they only fire 2 pulses per volley.
Actually... virusdancer, do you have any numbers on the firing patterns of each of the weapon types? Mostly, how many seconds the firing duration is and how many seconds the cycling duration between firing is, by weapon type. I know you love the numbers
Cannons are supposed to be x/3s and Beams x/5s. This reminds me though, I saw something in testing for another thread that kind of threw me...and I forgot to go back and look at it (pesky Cataclysm event, lol)...
Cannons really aren't my thing, and it wasn't until not that long ago that I even looked at info for them when it comes to power.
In general, to be blunt, I'm not really sure about how the drain return aspects work other than to parrot things I've seen said...outside of things like the EPS return part....but if there's actual weapon return on its own? Don't know - have just seen it said.
Say we go with one of my guys and that average 10.5s/ return from EPS and look at the following: 4x DHC/3x Turret vs. 8x Arrays where the "first" is free.
125/100 Weapon Power
4x DHCs/3x Turrets would be -60 power if one of the DHCs was counted as the first weapon.
8x Arrays would be -70 power with one of the Arrays counted as the first weapon.
If it was just 10.5s return from EPS, then we'd see the following, no?
125 - 60 = 65...75.5...86...96.5 at the end of the 3s cycle.
125 - 70 = 50...60.5...71...81.5...92...102.5 at the end of the 5s cycle.
That's not what we see though, is it? So it makes sense that there is a weapon return value working as well as the EPS return, no? Course, that's where folks have gotten into the discussion that the overcap tied in with the EPS return results in that return - but you see the same returns with and without overcap.
Given that pause at the end of the firing cycle, the return happening somewhere between that and the next shot; is where it gets into that longer wait on the return for the Beams than Cannons. Basically the less overcap needed for the Cannons because of the less potential time/chance to be below that 125 Weapon Power.
But that's all water cooler talk instead of blackboard/spreadsheet warrior stuff...and one of those things where I wonder what hilbert and lordhavelock could chime in with regarding the actual workings...like I said, I can only parrot certain things because I have by no means done extensive testing on them. Heh, I'm lazy - I just run massively overcapped beams and don't worry about it.
Is it worth it to run EPS consoles on a beam boat in order to maximize DPS?
^^^ This! Would love to get a straight answer...
Also, is there any way to observe power levels that doesn't involve watching the tooltip? A logging mechanism of some kind? Can we tease this info from CombatLog?
First person to write such a utility will become an instant hero to anyone struggling to maximize beam DPS.
RCK
Unfortunately you will always see that energy drop, regardless of how much extra power you have. The only way to keep power levels high is drain resistance like NI. Nothing else, all the extra power in the world will not help, one of the reason engs/cruisers are inferior to the tac cannon scatter volley madness.
Didn't they say BO basically works differently from anything else, in that it actually consumes power, intead of 'reserving' it?
its exactly like getting hit with any other energy drain, only in this case its a -50. and you get that power back at your EPS transfer speed. so an EPS console should help normalize your DPS after a BO faster