She would have been kicked out of Starfleet, but she re-routed all of Picard's promotions to her file and became one of the highest ranking admirals in Starfleet.
Oh, horse poo. So many temporal alterations have been done by Starfleet personnel and others since 1966 that the Eugenics War never happened. Surely some of you remember Khan from TOS episode "Space Seed," and the incomplete records of the Eugenics Wars of the 1990s. Yet in VOY episodes "Future's End" and "Future's End II," the Eugenics Wars did not occur at that time, due to temporal alterations.
As for Voyager having been "meant to" blah blah blah, Captain Braxton, at the end of "Future's End II," detected Voyager in the 20th century and returned the vessel to its previous coordinates and time in the Delta Quadrant, claiming that he could not transport the ship to Earth in the 24th century because that would have violated the Temporal Prime Directive. I don't recall anyone at that point saying that Voyager making their own way back would be a violation of the Temporal Prime Directive. Obviously, though, someone from Braxton's time would be prohibited from interfering in the timeline, unless absolutely necessary.
Genocide against the Borg? My heart bleeds. The Federation wasn't even "meant to" encounter the Borg when they did, but Q interfered and changed that. The Borg are, for the most part (with very rare exceptions) not even self-aware; they share a hive mind, dominated by a Queen (Memory Alpha denies that she or any other Borg is/was/will be self-aware, but I find that a dubious assertion). But wouldn't "genocide" at least imply the destruction of the entire Borg Collective? Why, then, do we still fight the Borg in STO, years after the events of "Endgame"? Memory Alpha says:
After this, there is no canon information on the state of the Collective. However, since the Borg controlled thousands of star systems and worlds, one can surmise that the destruction of the Unicomplex would not destroy the entire collective, or the queen for that matter, since Star Trek: Voyager shows the Collective to be capable of surviving a queen's death in 'Star Trek: First Contact'. It is also unknown if the neurolytic pathogen was an isolated phenomenon to the Unicomplex, or if it spread throughout the entire Collective, or how much damage it was able to deliver.
Why should the present Janeway be punished for any of this anyway. It was all done by her future version. Should she be punished for crimes she has yet to commit. (didn't go well for tom cruise) And anyway her future self was half assimilated, blown up and (presumably) wiped from history. I think that might be punishment enough. lol
What makes for genocide 5? 10? 100? 1000? Who sets the standard?
Captain Janeway, by no means committed genocide she didn't wipe out the borg as a race at all. but besides that fact the borg assimilate entire worlds there is no reasoning with them they are enemies of the federation the Klingon empire and the romulan star empire. Now if you think the destruction of a bunch of borg is genocide then how many stfs have you run? how many borg frontier missions have you done? how many borg have you killed?
If we use the example of genocide then every borg ship destroyed in tng and first contact is genocide.
Everyone knows that if they switched series and captain Sisko was in endgame the keepers of the sacred goatee wouldn't say a thing. :P
Every Starfleet captain violates the prime directive and temporal prime directive from kirk to picard to janeway to sisko.
no this is wrong. what is meant to happen is what occurs when there is no time travel at all. voyager was meant to take 23 years (i might be misremembering the time) to get home. that is what is meant to have happened.
by your own logic janeway erased 16 years of voyager travelling back to earth and removing all those interactions with other species that was meant to happen. just as voyager was meant to get lost, it was also meant to take that long to get home.
Standing at a point in the future and looking back at the past there is a way things are supposed to happen and a way that they are not. Lets stand in for the crew of the Wells here for a second and consider the situation. Up until the divergent point in the timelines the history and process of events take a standard path. The Wells intervenes as necessary because their history said so, even if they weren't aware at the time that history said so.
Now history says that Janeway made it home, but things are wrong as well. Significant advances in technology are behind the curve with regards to how it should have gone. It's alright though. Older Janeway travels back, accelerates her past self's return home, and inadvertently restores history to the way your texts say it happened. Everything, from the Wells' standpoint worked out correctly. The TPD won't let them do anything.
Now as far as Janeway being court-martialed, we really don't know what happened after they returned home and were debriefed. There most likely would have been those that would have wanted her pips and her head. The death of that many drones, even if they are an enemy faction, would have raised hackles and the flagrant abuse of the timeline, from their perspective, would have been more fuel to the fire. So the hearing probably did what it usually does to Captains too dangerous to leave roaming space; they gave her Admiral bars, got her out of active space duty, and buried her in paperwork. They can't get rid of her, she's too resourceful and dangerous, but they can keep her contained until they need someone like her again.
@captainrevo1; we know temporal incursion occur when any action taken by an individual or an agency use time travel in other to change history, so therefore yes we can say Future Janeway did that, but can we be sure that what she did wasn't part of what was meant to happen in the first place. Yes she will get her crew home the old fashion than get some tech along the line and loose people. Than come back later from the future and get them home early. The problem here so far is, if future Janeway is not changing the timeline than, what she did is not temporal incursion other wise, why would the temporal integrity commission agent allow it. Because it was already part of temporal future timeline so they don't need to change it.
"You ask why we give our ships computer normal emotions. Do you really want a warship incapable of loyalty?"
looking at blackblackwyrms comment brings to mind the ironic situation anyone at Starfleet would find themselves in after the dominion war. the principle of "let him without sin" applies here. Starfleet command ok'd a backroom deal with section 31 to poison odo and commit genocide by wiping out the founders lock stock and barrel to end the war, so they would have no moral high ground to stand on unless they planned on turning in their pips too.
Plus the principle of janeway being too dangerous to keep in the field counting into her promotion makes no sense since as a flag officer, vice admiral to be precise she would have access to even more resources then she did as a captain, even being able to take command of a ship or a fleet of starships if she wanted to. Going further on this point what captain kirk did in stealing the enterprise, going into a forbidden zone in federation space, and going back in time were all done as a admiral, so if people at Starfleet command thought he was a risk then why demote him to captain and give him command of a ship again?
((a further note that captain picard in nemesis, offered congratulations on her promotion to vice admiral indicates that it didn't happen under bad circumstances you don't promote people that you rule against in court martials))
Did we watch the same star trek? Kirk constantly broke Starfleet regulations and he ended up being an admiral. Benjamin Sisko was a conspirator and accomplice in the assassination of a Romulation Senator and he ended up being an Admiral. Picard murdered many starfleet officers when he became part of the collective, yet he took up the captain's chair once again after being freed. Umm, what star trek were you watching?
Um... when did Sisco get promoted to Admiral?
Fleet Admiral Joseph D. Ridgeway
The Armada
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I support Janeways decision, while freeing the victims would be ideal the priorify has to be annilation of the borg. To show mercy to the to the borg is to condemn countless species too true genocide. The borg is not a real species, they're an infection that wipes out real species.
You all are worried over some alteration to the TPD by a female captain who is actually a temporal version of the actual Janeway, who gets aid from a future self by defeating some borg in defense against their attacks given to them by the queen? But it's ok for the Q to cause drastic changes to everything without intervention, and like quite a few pointed out if it was wrong according to the TPD than they would work to fix it would they not?
What makes for genocide 5? 10? 100? 1000? Who sets the standard?
Captain Janeway, by no means committed genocide she didn't wipe out the borg as a race at all. but besides that fact the borg assimilate entire worlds there is no reasoning with them they are enemies of the federation the Klingon empire and the romulan star empire. Now if you think the destruction of a bunch of borg is genocide then how many stfs have you run? how many borg frontier missions have you done? how many borg have you killed?
If we use the example of genocide then every borg ship destroyed in tng and first contact is genocide.
Everyone knows that if they switched series and captain Sisko was in endgame the keepers of the sacred goatee wouldn't say a thing. :P
Every Starfleet captain violates the prime directive and temporal prime directive from kirk to picard to janeway to sisko.
Mass Murder maybe, but not genocide. That would mean Janeway killed all the Borg, or killed a lot and made it impossible for them to continue as a species.
Borg Frequently commit genocide by killing m illions and removing their themness.
Janeway did a thing, big deal. Go back in time to save your ship and crew. If she had gone all the way back and prevented the ship from getting stuck in the first place that would have been a bad thing.
Plus nobody who is addicted to coffee will ever be bad in my book.
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Ok, all you people who think that killing Borg is mass murder, and that Janeway should be tried for Genocide an d mass murder...you people are way out to lunch.
Starfleet is a military organization. While the Federation council might be iffy on killing Borg by the millions, Starfleet command is in the business of killing Borg, because the Borg cannot be reasoned with. Fighting and destroying the Borg is the ONLY viable solution. Any peace with the Borg does not last. Scorpion Parts 1 and 2 proved this.
Even look at Admiral Nechayev. She was mad that Picard didn't send Hue back with the Algorithm designed by Data which would have DESTROYED the ENTIRE collective. Starfleet is in the business of fighting and destroying the Borg. They have no qualms with destroying thousands, millions, billions, or even trillions of drones.
Even the enlightened Captain Picard, the same man who likes pots, and old books, had NO PROBLEM trashing a Borg Cube with a few Quantum torpedoes. And when that Sphere was headed to Earth...his first order was FIRE...not "open hailing frequencies".
Even Future Starfleet built and designed a whole arsenal of weapons specifically tailored to killing Borg, with the Transphasic torpedoes, the Borg Stealth, and the Armor. It was all made to kill Borg. Starfleet is in the business of killing Borg. They are in the business of fighting wars when diplomacy fails and there is no diplomacy with The Borg.
Janeway even started a Borg civil war with Unimatrix Zero - and everyone was A-ok with it cause it was intended to weaken the Borg. Even 7 of 9 liked the idea of a civil war in the Borg.
All Starfleet does is find ways to kill Borg. The Defiant? Built with one purpose in mind - "Fight and defeat the Borg". That quote is verbatim from DS9. Starfleet even developed specific pathogens - chemical warfare - to fight the Borg.
So when Starfleet watches Captain Janeway come through a worm hole, from a transwarp hub that was just destroyed, that the Borg were using to their strategic advantage, with a ship packed full of technology designed to one-shot a cube...every Admiral in Starfleet had the torpedo's in their pants in full launch position with all the new ways that they could kill the Borg.
People like The Dominion, The Klingons, The Romulans - these guys can be reasoned with. There is no reason with the Borg - so there is no diplomacy - so there is only military action.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
If you oppose the Reputation nerf, feel free to use my signature
Mass Murder maybe, but not genocide. That would mean Janeway killed all the Borg, or killed a lot and made it impossible for them to continue as a species..
Ah, so the jews are all dead then? Or wasn't it genocide the TRIBBLE commited?
Ok, all you people who think that killing Borg is mass murder, and that Janeway should be tried for Genocide an d mass murder...you people are way out to lunch.
Starfleet is a military organization. While the Federation council might be iffy on killing Borg by the millions, Starfleet command is in the business of killing Borg, because the Borg cannot be reasoned with. Fighting and destroying the Borg is the ONLY viable solution. Any peace with the Borg does not last. Scorpion Parts 1 and 2 proved this.
Even look at Admiral Nechayev. She was mad that Picard didn't send Hue back with the Algorithm designed by Data which would have DESTROYED the ENTIRE collective. Starfleet is in the business of fighting and destroying the Borg. They have no qualms with destroying thousands, millions, billions, or even trillions of drones.
Even the enlightened Captain Picard, the same man who likes pots, and old books, had NO PROBLEM trashing a Borg Cube with a few Quantum torpedoes. And when that Sphere was headed to Earth...his first order was FIRE...not "open hailing frequencies".
Even Future Starfleet built and designed a whole arsenal of weapons specifically tailored to killing Borg, with the Transphasic torpedoes, the Borg Stealth, and the Armor. It was all made to kill Borg. Starfleet is in the business of killing Borg. They are in the business of fighting wars when diplomacy fails and there is no diplomacy with The Borg.
Janeway even started a Borg civil war with Unimatrix Zero - and everyone was A-ok with it cause it was intended to weaken the Borg. Even 7 of 9 liked the idea of a civil war in the Borg.
All Starfleet does is find ways to kill Borg. The Defiant? Built with one purpose in mind - "Fight and defeat the Borg". That quote is verbatim from DS9. Starfleet even developed specific pathogens - chemical warfare - to fight the Borg.
So when Starfleet watches Captain Janeway come through a worm hole, from a transwarp hub that was just destroyed, that the Borg were using to their strategic advantage, with a ship packed full of technology designed to one-shot a cube...every Admiral in Starfleet had the torpedo's in their pants in full launch position with all the new ways that they could kill the Borg.
People like The Dominion, The Klingons, The Romulans - these guys can be reasoned with. There is no reason with the Borg - so there is no diplomacy - so there is only military action.
Janeway never exactly followed the prime directive, she frequently bent it to her own needs, examples including giving the the hirogen holodeck technology, harbouring telepaths and re igniting a war from 900 years ago
Janeway is not the only controversial member of starfleet, organisations like section 31 reach all the way to the top in starfleet command. Admiral Cartwright tried to derail peace between the federation and the klingon empire, Admiral Leyton tried to use starfleet as a means to lead a coup.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
@captainrevo1; we know temporal incursion occur when any action taken by an individual or an agency use time travel in other to change history, so therefore yes we can say Future Janeway did that, but can we be sure that what she did wasn't part of what was meant to happen in the first place. Yes she will get her crew home the old fashion than get some tech along the line and loose people. Than come back later from the future and get them home early. The problem here so far is, if future Janeway is not changing the timeline than, what she did is not temporal incursion other wise, why would the temporal integrity commission agent allow it. Because it was already part of temporal future timeline so they don't need to change it.
that's not how this situation works.
what you are describing is a predestination paradox where someone goes back in time and ends up doing something that causes them to go back in time in the first place. you dont want to change these as its meant to happen even though time travel is involved.
there remains one timeline with a temporal loop involved. this is seen in episodes such as times arrow and first contact.
this is not one of those cases as janeway changed the existing timeline and it is now gone forever. if voyager was always meant to get home in season 7 via time travel help then janeway would be completing her role in the process knowing she had to go back in time. this is not the case. janeway did not have to go back and complete it. she chose to go back and change something. massive difference.
billions of peoples lives have been changed and affected by the change. she has played god in picking the timeline that she wants. you cant say this is meant to happen or all timeline changes would follow that rule if the latest timeline is the accurate one.
Whilst all that you've said is True, it wasn't actually Janeway that broke the temporal directive this time, it was actually her future self, thus the Janeway that was in the wrong is long dead. Why should the prime Janeway answer for her future crimes?
That, and Trek is full of inconsistencies and irregularities, be that temporal or otherwise. It's Science Fiction after all, and has five shows, thirty-one seasons, and twelve-fifteen films. You can't expect complete consistency.
Whilst all that you've said is True, it wasn't actually Janeway that broke the temporal directive this time, it was actually her future self, thus the Janeway that was in the wrong is long dead. Why should the prime Janeway answer for her future crimes?
That, and Trek is full of inconsistencies and irregularities, be that temporal or otherwise. It's Science Fiction after all, and has five shows, thirty-one seasons, and twelve-fifteen films. You can't expect complete consistency.
She broke it when she accepted all this Tech and went to alter the timeline herself in doing something she has NOT done in the "old timeline"...
Simple as that!
Yes Old Janeway brought it back, but that does NOT mean Young J is free too use it.
She broke it when she accepted all this Tech and went to alter the timeline herself in doing something she has NOT done in the "old timeline"...
Simple as that!
Yes Old Janeway brought it back, but that does NOT mean Young J is free too use it.
admiral out ranks captain and to be frank going to say TRIBBLE like this about her then all of starfleet is doing the same thing by using it...................
Whilst all that you've said is True, it wasn't actually Janeway that broke the temporal directive this time, it was actually her future self, thus the Janeway that was in the wrong is long dead. Why should the prime Janeway answer for her future crimes?
That, and Trek is full of inconsistencies and irregularities, be that temporal or otherwise. It's Science Fiction after all, and has five shows, thirty-one seasons, and twelve-fifteen films. You can't expect complete consistency.
Braxton was arrested and relived of command of the relativity for what his future self was going to do. in the eyes of the temporal prime directive you are responsible for your actions even if you have not committed them yet.
I take your point about it being sci-fi. end of the day its not real and purely for entertainment and every writer treats time travel different, and once you start pulling at the threads none of it really ends up making sense, but we have to try and go by the rules the show presents us.
She broke it when she accepted all this Tech and went to alter the timeline herself in doing something she has NOT done in the "old timeline"...
The second Janeway appears the 'old timeline' no longer existed cause events would have changed, thus prime Janeway (regardless of what she decided) would already be on a new course, with new outcomes.
The fact is, all she did was make use of a technological advantage. She wasn't the one jumping through time. Besides, Admiral Janeway (as mentioned above) ordered Captain Janeway to do what she was told.
If someone offered you a new piece of tech, wouldn't you want to play with it?
Braxton was arrested and relived of command of the relativity for what his future self was going to do. in the eyes of the temporal prime directive you are responsible for your actions even if you have not committed them yet.
Whilst true, those rules most probably applied only to that century. As Admiral Janeway's time didn't have temporal starships and crews etc, they probably hadn't created that law yet. Who's suppose to enforce it?
Also, to throw some further inconsistency out there; Janeway went back in time to help Voyager get home quicker. Couldn't the Borg have travelled back in time also? They've done it before (First Contact). Why couldn't they have altered the timeline?
The temporal prime directive is a valid problem. Genocide is not.
The Borg are not a race. The Borg is a cybernetic system which enslaves many races.
The Borg will not abide to coexist with any free sentient people. The Borg cooperated with Voyager only because they were at a loss in dealing with species 8472.
One might consider that Borg is an infection which destroys sentient personalities, and destroying every last Borg is killing a disease which inhabits and animates its dead victims.
The last epidode of Voyager always bugged me due to all the rules Janeway broke to get home. I understand why she did it, but the lack of remifications shown afterwards (shes an admiral in Nemesis) is a shame, Kirk saved the Earth and even he got demoted from Admiral to Captain, so to promote Janeway after breaking all these rules to a higher rank is a bit odd.
Therefore, how I'd handle it in STO, is I'd have a mission in game where you are sent to investigate the remains of the transwarp hub that Voyager entered and destroyed. During the mission you'd find logs detailing Voyagers use of future technology, as well as future Janeways involvement. This is where it would get fun, as we'd find out now that Janeway left all of this out of her report to Starfleet when she returned.... This would explain why Janeway apparently suffered no remifications for her actions, Janeway could be in the mission and maybe give some speech about doinganything for her family (crew) and that in hindsight she regrets not telling the truth, at this point Janeway would be demoted to captain and given the command of a starship (like Kirk in ST:IV).
I hope it's not too late for this but I'd like to suggest avoiding some certain Voyager storyline elements in Season 8 or addressing them in a very specific way.
We all know that Janeway blew up Millions of Borg in order to get home. Movie wise I loved the ending. The uber Voyager eating through Borg was a stunning beauty. Trek wise it's the most horrible thing anyone could have done to the Star Trek philosophy.
Here's why:
- Temporal prime directive: In order to get home Janeway altered the timeline which is a blatant violation of the temporal directive. Even more so she did so for nothing but personal gain. While you could argue about 150 people benefiting of this, which is still nothing, she basically did it for Tuvok not to go crazy and for Chakotay to keep on dating his drone.
That Janeway was not the same as 'our' Janeway. If she had been, the paradox would be that our Janeway would not have gotten back to the federation before her. Meaning the Future Janeway would not have existed to go back in time in the first place.
Many times throughout the franchise we have been shown that parallel universes exist long side our own. In that instance, it could be argued that neither of them violated the Temporal Prime Directive since no alterations were made to their own timelines. And still yet that they both violated it. Quite a broad grey area, no?
- Genocide: Janeways actions killed millions of Borg in the process. This nothing short of Genocide. While you can see the Borg with mixed feelings and you could argue that she saved millions of other worlds I would postulate that with all the knowledge they had they could have attempted to actually free those drones from the collective. This would have been the proper Starfleet way.
We're at war with the Borg. We had been from the moment Q got boored and wanted to play Ensign aboard the Enterprise D and was turned down. Twice they attacked Earth. Both times with only a single Cube. And both times they utterly crippled the Fleet. With a single Cube each.
Yet Janeway was within their own ground for nearly seven years and managed to survive multiple encounters with single vessels to entire fleets of Cubes and Spheres. But, Janeway also made several attempts to liberate Drones. Successfully. When the risk of destruction did not outweigh the rescue.
One ship. A research scout vessel. In Borg Land. Managed to liberate at least the four we know of, not counting any spared by Janeways actions to with those hiding in Unimatrix One. With the entire Collective breathing down the dorsal of her hull the entire time. Not one Cube against our Fleet. The tables are reveresed. Lets play Hero!
The only reason Voyager made it back was Plot Armor. Not Ablative Armor
- High treason: If things had gone wrong the Borg would have been delivered cutting edge technology by Janeway that would have made them even more powerful. This includes powerful torpedos, impenetrable armor and worse a device that would allow to travel through time. Even if that device had been destroyed the Queen would still have found information in Janeways brain. As a matter of fact it could even be that the Queen was able to transmit some of the information gained by assimilating Janeway to other Borg as well (and not just that one single cube at the end).
Again falls under the parallel universe interference I mentioned above. Not our Janeway helping our Janeway. But our Janeway still accepted the assitance. Lovely shades of grey.
For all these reasons Janeway should have been court martialed, demoted and kicked out of Starfleet with no honors. Instead she was promoted to Admiral.
Given these issues I'd like to make the following suggestions for Season 8:
- Either discuss the Voyager ending very critically with Janeway having been forced to leave Starfleet
- or do not make any reference to Janeway and her decisions at all. Just ignore her and the voyager ending completely. Voyager is just back, but that's it.
All in all, I'd like to ask you (Cryptic) not to glorify Janeway and the choices she made. This has no place in a universe adhering to Starfleet principles.
We pop Borg ships like balloons all over the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. 5000+ Drones aboard each Cube. 500+ aboard each Sphere. 200+ aboard each Probe. Only once were we asked to try save drones. And that was just for the knowledge the Scientists had before being assimilated. Not to free them for the sake of freeing them. We're no better that Janeway in this instance. We're far, far worse than she was using in your view.
Genocide has only been committed and achieved truly once in human history -
By the British in Tasmania - there are no Tasmanian Aboriginals anymore.
There are still Jews - The TRIBBLE attempted genocide of the Jews - thankfully they failed.
No need to redefine a word.
Janeway did not commit genocide - merely attempted it....
It happened - Its cannon - So just accept it.
Hey Vulcan is still in the game - oh right - The new films are in a different Universe not the main timeline....
Nero - nutcase/madman - has the power to stop Hobus Explosion - decides to attempt genocide.....
The definition of genocide does not require successful or even intended extermination, genocide is only the deliberate systematic killing of a large number of people. It does apply especially to such an act targeting a specific ethnic group, but does not require even that (the UN's Convention on Genocide requires intent to exterminate or displace, but counts limited regional extermination in areas as small as a single village instead of global extermination. It also requires targeting of a specific group, but that group can be geographical, making this distinction almost meaningless. It also counts long-game extermination like preventing reproduction or forced removal of children). It does, however, require that they not be killed in mutual combat.
Genocide has only been committed and achieved truly once in human history -
By the British in Tasmania - there are no Tasmanian Aboriginals anymore.
There are still Jews - The TRIBBLE attempted genocide of the Jews - thankfully they failed.
No need to redefine a word.
Janeway did not commit genocide - merely attempted it....
It happened - Its cannon - So just accept it.
Hey Vulcan is still in the game - oh right - The new films are in a different Universe not the main timeline....
Nero - nutcase/madman - has the power to stop Hobus Explosion - decides to attempt genocide.....
The UN General Assembly defines genocide as:
..any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
? Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article II
Please get your facts straight before attempting yourself in defining parts of history. And according to that definition Janeway did commit Genocide. It was not merely an "act of war" as she deliberately intended that effect.
Kirk saved the Earth and even he got demoted from Admiral to Captain, so to promote Janeway after breaking all these rules to a higher rank is a bit odd.
Kirk wasn't demoted as a punishment. The demotion was a reward for his actions. They rewarded his valor by giving him what he truly wanted.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
We know that Janeway doesn't leave Starfleet as she's an admiral in Nemesis when she gives Picard his orders.
And as the Ablative Armor is in game, and as part of the game premise of why Starfleet does so well against the Borg is due to the future tech Janeway gives Starfleet it would seem someone pointless to over look it.
Ablative shields was the tech janeway brought..... ablative armor already existed prior to that.
Comments
When will they learn?
As for Voyager having been "meant to" blah blah blah, Captain Braxton, at the end of "Future's End II," detected Voyager in the 20th century and returned the vessel to its previous coordinates and time in the Delta Quadrant, claiming that he could not transport the ship to Earth in the 24th century because that would have violated the Temporal Prime Directive. I don't recall anyone at that point saying that Voyager making their own way back would be a violation of the Temporal Prime Directive. Obviously, though, someone from Braxton's time would be prohibited from interfering in the timeline, unless absolutely necessary.
Genocide against the Borg? My heart bleeds. The Federation wasn't even "meant to" encounter the Borg when they did, but Q interfered and changed that. The Borg are, for the most part (with very rare exceptions) not even self-aware; they share a hive mind, dominated by a Queen (Memory Alpha denies that she or any other Borg is/was/will be self-aware, but I find that a dubious assertion). But wouldn't "genocide" at least imply the destruction of the entire Borg Collective? Why, then, do we still fight the Borg in STO, years after the events of "Endgame"? Memory Alpha says:
Mine Blown :P
Captain Janeway, by no means committed genocide she didn't wipe out the borg as a race at all. but besides that fact the borg assimilate entire worlds there is no reasoning with them they are enemies of the federation the Klingon empire and the romulan star empire. Now if you think the destruction of a bunch of borg is genocide then how many stfs have you run? how many borg frontier missions have you done? how many borg have you killed?
If we use the example of genocide then every borg ship destroyed in tng and first contact is genocide.
Everyone knows that if they switched series and captain Sisko was in endgame the keepers of the sacred goatee wouldn't say a thing. :P
Every Starfleet captain violates the prime directive and temporal prime directive from kirk to picard to janeway to sisko.
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Standing at a point in the future and looking back at the past there is a way things are supposed to happen and a way that they are not. Lets stand in for the crew of the Wells here for a second and consider the situation. Up until the divergent point in the timelines the history and process of events take a standard path. The Wells intervenes as necessary because their history said so, even if they weren't aware at the time that history said so.
Now history says that Janeway made it home, but things are wrong as well. Significant advances in technology are behind the curve with regards to how it should have gone. It's alright though. Older Janeway travels back, accelerates her past self's return home, and inadvertently restores history to the way your texts say it happened. Everything, from the Wells' standpoint worked out correctly. The TPD won't let them do anything.
Now as far as Janeway being court-martialed, we really don't know what happened after they returned home and were debriefed. There most likely would have been those that would have wanted her pips and her head. The death of that many drones, even if they are an enemy faction, would have raised hackles and the flagrant abuse of the timeline, from their perspective, would have been more fuel to the fire. So the hearing probably did what it usually does to Captains too dangerous to leave roaming space; they gave her Admiral bars, got her out of active space duty, and buried her in paperwork. They can't get rid of her, she's too resourceful and dangerous, but they can keep her contained until they need someone like her again.
Plus the principle of janeway being too dangerous to keep in the field counting into her promotion makes no sense since as a flag officer, vice admiral to be precise she would have access to even more resources then she did as a captain, even being able to take command of a ship or a fleet of starships if she wanted to. Going further on this point what captain kirk did in stealing the enterprise, going into a forbidden zone in federation space, and going back in time were all done as a admiral, so if people at Starfleet command thought he was a risk then why demote him to captain and give him command of a ship again?
((a further note that captain picard in nemesis, offered congratulations on her promotion to vice admiral indicates that it didn't happen under bad circumstances you don't promote people that you rule against in court martials))
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Um... when did Sisco get promoted to Admiral?
The Armada
Original join date: Feb 5, 2010
Twitter: @davejl_99, & @STO_BBArmada
this is sig worthy
He didn't, unless he's talking about the novels which don't count as hard canon like the shows and movies
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Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Mass Murder maybe, but not genocide. That would mean Janeway killed all the Borg, or killed a lot and made it impossible for them to continue as a species.
Borg Frequently commit genocide by killing m illions and removing their themness.
Janeway did a thing, big deal. Go back in time to save your ship and crew. If she had gone all the way back and prevented the ship from getting stuck in the first place that would have been a bad thing.
Plus nobody who is addicted to coffee will ever be bad in my book.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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Starfleet is a military organization. While the Federation council might be iffy on killing Borg by the millions, Starfleet command is in the business of killing Borg, because the Borg cannot be reasoned with. Fighting and destroying the Borg is the ONLY viable solution. Any peace with the Borg does not last. Scorpion Parts 1 and 2 proved this.
Even look at Admiral Nechayev. She was mad that Picard didn't send Hue back with the Algorithm designed by Data which would have DESTROYED the ENTIRE collective. Starfleet is in the business of fighting and destroying the Borg. They have no qualms with destroying thousands, millions, billions, or even trillions of drones.
Even the enlightened Captain Picard, the same man who likes pots, and old books, had NO PROBLEM trashing a Borg Cube with a few Quantum torpedoes. And when that Sphere was headed to Earth...his first order was FIRE...not "open hailing frequencies".
Even Future Starfleet built and designed a whole arsenal of weapons specifically tailored to killing Borg, with the Transphasic torpedoes, the Borg Stealth, and the Armor. It was all made to kill Borg. Starfleet is in the business of killing Borg. They are in the business of fighting wars when diplomacy fails and there is no diplomacy with The Borg.
Janeway even started a Borg civil war with Unimatrix Zero - and everyone was A-ok with it cause it was intended to weaken the Borg. Even 7 of 9 liked the idea of a civil war in the Borg.
All Starfleet does is find ways to kill Borg. The Defiant? Built with one purpose in mind - "Fight and defeat the Borg". That quote is verbatim from DS9. Starfleet even developed specific pathogens - chemical warfare - to fight the Borg.
So when Starfleet watches Captain Janeway come through a worm hole, from a transwarp hub that was just destroyed, that the Borg were using to their strategic advantage, with a ship packed full of technology designed to one-shot a cube...every Admiral in Starfleet had the torpedo's in their pants in full launch position with all the new ways that they could kill the Borg.
People like The Dominion, The Klingons, The Romulans - these guys can be reasoned with. There is no reason with the Borg - so there is no diplomacy - so there is only military action.
Ah, so the jews are all dead then? Or wasn't it genocide the TRIBBLE commited?
You have to rethink your definition of genocide.
Janeway never exactly followed the prime directive, she frequently bent it to her own needs, examples including giving the the hirogen holodeck technology, harbouring telepaths and re igniting a war from 900 years ago
Janeway is not the only controversial member of starfleet, organisations like section 31 reach all the way to the top in starfleet command. Admiral Cartwright tried to derail peace between the federation and the klingon empire, Admiral Leyton tried to use starfleet as a means to lead a coup.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
that's not how this situation works.
what you are describing is a predestination paradox where someone goes back in time and ends up doing something that causes them to go back in time in the first place. you dont want to change these as its meant to happen even though time travel is involved.
there remains one timeline with a temporal loop involved. this is seen in episodes such as times arrow and first contact.
this is not one of those cases as janeway changed the existing timeline and it is now gone forever. if voyager was always meant to get home in season 7 via time travel help then janeway would be completing her role in the process knowing she had to go back in time. this is not the case. janeway did not have to go back and complete it. she chose to go back and change something. massive difference.
billions of peoples lives have been changed and affected by the change. she has played god in picking the timeline that she wants. you cant say this is meant to happen or all timeline changes would follow that rule if the latest timeline is the accurate one.
That, and Trek is full of inconsistencies and irregularities, be that temporal or otherwise. It's Science Fiction after all, and has five shows, thirty-one seasons, and twelve-fifteen films. You can't expect complete consistency.
She broke it when she accepted all this Tech and went to alter the timeline herself in doing something she has NOT done in the "old timeline"...
Simple as that!
Yes Old Janeway brought it back, but that does NOT mean Young J is free too use it.
admiral out ranks captain and to be frank going to say TRIBBLE like this about her then all of starfleet is doing the same thing by using it...................
system Lord Baal is dead
Braxton was arrested and relived of command of the relativity for what his future self was going to do. in the eyes of the temporal prime directive you are responsible for your actions even if you have not committed them yet.
I take your point about it being sci-fi. end of the day its not real and purely for entertainment and every writer treats time travel different, and once you start pulling at the threads none of it really ends up making sense, but we have to try and go by the rules the show presents us.
The fact is, all she did was make use of a technological advantage. She wasn't the one jumping through time.
If someone offered you a new piece of tech, wouldn't you want to play with it?
Whilst true, those rules most probably applied only to that century. As Admiral Janeway's time didn't have temporal starships and crews etc, they probably hadn't created that law yet. Who's suppose to enforce it?
Also, to throw some further inconsistency out there; Janeway went back in time to help Voyager get home quicker. Couldn't the Borg have travelled back in time also? They've done it before (First Contact). Why couldn't they have altered the timeline?
The Borg are not a race. The Borg is a cybernetic system which enslaves many races.
The Borg will not abide to coexist with any free sentient people. The Borg cooperated with Voyager only because they were at a loss in dealing with species 8472.
One might consider that Borg is an infection which destroys sentient personalities, and destroying every last Borg is killing a disease which inhabits and animates its dead victims.
Member since December 2009
Therefore, how I'd handle it in STO, is I'd have a mission in game where you are sent to investigate the remains of the transwarp hub that Voyager entered and destroyed. During the mission you'd find logs detailing Voyagers use of future technology, as well as future Janeways involvement. This is where it would get fun, as we'd find out now that Janeway left all of this out of her report to Starfleet when she returned.... This would explain why Janeway apparently suffered no remifications for her actions, Janeway could be in the mission and maybe give some speech about doinganything for her family (crew) and that in hindsight she regrets not telling the truth, at this point Janeway would be demoted to captain and given the command of a starship (like Kirk in ST:IV).
We pop Borg ships like balloons all over the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. 5000+ Drones aboard each Cube. 500+ aboard each Sphere. 200+ aboard each Probe. Only once were we asked to try save drones. And that was just for the knowledge the Scientists had before being assimilated. Not to free them for the sake of freeing them. We're no better that Janeway in this instance. We're far, far worse than she was using in your view.
Just my point of view....
Genocide has only been committed and achieved truly once in human history -
By the British in Tasmania - there are no Tasmanian Aboriginals anymore.
There are still Jews - The TRIBBLE attempted genocide of the Jews - thankfully they failed.
No need to redefine a word.
Janeway did not commit genocide - merely attempted it....
It happened - Its cannon - So just accept it.
Hey Vulcan is still in the game - oh right - The new films are in a different Universe not the main timeline....
Nero - nutcase/madman - has the power to stop Hobus Explosion - decides to attempt genocide.....
The definition of genocide does not require successful or even intended extermination, genocide is only the deliberate systematic killing of a large number of people. It does apply especially to such an act targeting a specific ethnic group, but does not require even that (the UN's Convention on Genocide requires intent to exterminate or displace, but counts limited regional extermination in areas as small as a single village instead of global extermination. It also requires targeting of a specific group, but that group can be geographical, making this distinction almost meaningless. It also counts long-game extermination like preventing reproduction or forced removal of children). It does, however, require that they not be killed in mutual combat.
The UN General Assembly defines genocide as:
..any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
? Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article II
Please get your facts straight before attempting yourself in defining parts of history. And according to that definition Janeway did commit Genocide. It was not merely an "act of war" as she deliberately intended that effect.
Ablative shields was the tech janeway brought..... ablative armor already existed prior to that.