Star Trek is... nerds arguing over something that ended more then 12 years ago.
Either way, this thread seems pointless. If it's on the screen it's canon. CBS accepted it as canon, Paramount accept it as canon, and Cryptic accepted it as canon.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
If I recall correctly Picard was not very happy with these instructions though. I bet he'd have disobeyed if he had been offered a second chance. I believe Nechayev's order was against the values of Starfleet. Even more so since future Janeway brought new technology that could have helped much in freeing mass amounts of Borg instead of killing them.
Which is one of the reasons why people prefer Enterprise to TNG. Comparing Enterprise to TNG, Archer is put into an impossible situation where he must choose between robbing an alien ship or dying out in the expanse. Arguably, the writers of TNG where more kindhearted with their pens because they never wrote a storyline where Picard would have his morals truly pushed to their limit again. In my estimation, Picard would have infected them in a heartbeat if the Federation survived because of it. I think Picard just didn't think it had gotten to that point yet.
And it's somewhat ironic that we're discussing this matter in a forum for a game based on Star Trek, with a storyline that has Starfleet Officers performing some VERY questionable acts.
in all honesty i think most of starfleets rules went down the toilet with probally all the undine we have acting as "starfleet heads" and with section 31 no point in careing anymore with what franklin drake has us do lol i mean think about it in night of the comet drake makes us destroy a comet thats altering the future plus we go back to save whats her name from the klingons cause she is their oh so great one the daughter from voyager not the one on k-7 the other one lol forgot her name >_<.
I have to ask this why do some people hate janeway that much? Is it because she was a female captain or what.
Let be Honest here, no captain in starfleet have ever been tested like the way janeway was. Flying through unknown space with no back up and no orders from home and all you have are your Principals to guide you through a Tough Situation. Sometime I think people forget that her she was not even gear for such a long deep space mission. She was suppose to just Intercept the maquis instead she end up 70 light years from home.
Since when is it that killing Borg are Consider as Genocide. I don't here anyone saying Borg Assimilate worlds are In fact committing genocide themselves.
The fact that, the future janeway went back in time, to bring her crew and ship back with the future technology, without any Temporal incursion occurring which will have been dim as a violation, means she was meant to go back to her past and give those tech to her self.
Why high treason, she did the federation a service instead. She and her crew got much intel on the delta quadrant and what you are forgetting is she push for those tech that was develop in the future to be develop, so she could save her crew one day. It was all about the family.:cool:
"You ask why we give our ships computer normal emotions. Do you really want a warship incapable of loyalty?"
I have to ask this why do some people hate janeway that much? Is it because she was a female captain or what.
Jeez....... when do you guys get it. I asked for Janeway to get court martialed because of poor decision making not because of her ****. As a matter of fact I liked her as a Captain and I liked the series. That does not excuse how the series ended.
...
- Temporal prime directive: In order to get home Janeway altered the timeline which is a blatant violation of the temporal directive. Even more so she did so for nothing but personal gain. While you could argue about 150 people benefiting of this, which is still nothing, she basically did it for Tuvok not to go crazy and for Chakotay to keep on dating his drone.
...
But speaking of the Temporal Prime Directive...
If Janeway's action was disruptive to the Federation Time Line, the future temporal corps could simply 'undo' the action so they never happened...
And how can you explain the presence of the Doctor's mobile holographic emitter (from the future) contaminating the time line, unless its presence was actually intended...
If that is the case, that sucks big time. I think she did an excellent job giving the Situation. Let take the equinox captain, Ranson. this guy had fallen so bad, let take a look at what he was doing. turn alians into fuel so he can get his crew home. all the thing that he was far worse than what janeway did. He even try to destroy voyager. Captain Ranson committed genocide, he even forsake the fedaration Principal and janeway try to remind him about it.
"You ask why we give our ships computer normal emotions. Do you really want a warship incapable of loyalty?"
If that is the case, that sucks big time. I think she did an excellent job giving the Situation. Let take the equinox captain, Ranson. this guy had fallen so bad, let take a look at what he was doing. turn alians into fuel so he can get his crew home. all the thing that he was far worse than what janeway did. He even try to destroy voyager. Captain Ranson committed genocide, he even forsake the fedaration Principal and janeway try to remind him about it.
omg you sooo get it very much this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ppl here would have gave him Medal
Jeez....... when do you guys get it. I asked for Janeway to get court martialed because of poor decision making not because of her ****. As a matter of fact I liked her as a Captain and I liked the series. That does not excuse how the series ended.
What poor decision did she make. Giving the Situation I think she did a excellent job. She was after all in a region of space unexplored by the federation and she have no way of communication home for order. No back from any federation ships. Limited supply's, not enough Specialise crew for specific task. All she had was the crew which was just a stand crew for patrol Duties. The way the series ended was the way the writers choose it to end, nothing more. She was meant to give herself that tech simple as that. If she wasn't meant to have that tech, than she would have been stopped by the temporal agents.
"You ask why we give our ships computer normal emotions. Do you really want a warship incapable of loyalty?"
It all comes to this: In virtually every episode, something "temporal" has occurred. Starfleet has gone back and forth in time so much that it makes my head spin. How many times (I ask myself) have I groaned, "Oh God, not another temporal incursion"...it makes good storytelling. When I watched Enterprise, I said to myself yet again, "Please...don't let them use anything that promotes time travel!"..what did they do? Yep...again. And again. And from the very beginning of Enterprise..
As I said, it makes good storytelling when you use "time travel" to make the story more exciting. I have watched Star Trek, like many of you, since the beginning. Star Trek is all about the storytelling, the drama and suspense. And who am I to denounce it when they use time travel yet again? The season finale of Star Trek: Voyager was great, even though they used time travel. It's been a founding principle of almost every Star Trek movie and show since it's inception......and I'm alright with that.
Why should the present Janeway be punished for any of this anyway. It was all done by her future version. Should she be punished for crimes she has yet to commit. (didn't go well for tom cruise) And anyway her future self was half assimilated, blown up and (presumably) wiped from history. I think that might be punishment enough. lol
Yeah, I was kind of wondering about this myself thus far.
If Janeway's action was disruptive to the Federation Time Line, the future temporal corps could simply 'undo' the action so they never happened...
And how can you explain the presence of the Doctor's mobile holographic emitter (from the future) contaminating the time line, unless its presence was actually intended...
In a way, the Doctor's Mobile Emitter parallels nicely with Scotty providing the formula for Transparent Aluminum.
Like you said, it was a predestination paradox, where the past was provided with the future and became the beginning of the technology. So the Temporal cops have no reason to interfere.
Wait somebody cares about Voyager?.....:D.....seriously though - Voyager had some cool fight scenes, had a babe in a suit wound up way tight, and a bad captain(In my opinion).....
T.P.D. - She was playing with the natural order, and by definition - no one would know the complete effects of her actions....except maybe, like Q or something......
A rhetorical question - you said she blew up millions of Borg at the end. Since they aren't individuals, by their own admission, would it really be genocide? [Many nations dehumanize their enemy, makes them easier to kill.]
The biggest issue I have with the ending is about that Temporal Violation stuff. Someone from the 29th century or 31st century would be paying them a visit and trying to restore the timeline. At the very very very least, Temporal Investigations would be all over her butt.
Why is that people keep saying that the ending was Temporal violation. It only become a temporal violation if what future Janeway did was not meant to happen.
Okay let take Relativity episode as example. The reason the temporal agent got Involve with because if captain Braxton had manage to blow up voyager than a lot of the timeline include the future will have been screwed. I say this because voyager is meant to get lost in the delta quadrant. That means Janeway was meant to save the Borg from Species 8472, the ship is suppose to have effect on the delta quadrant both positive and Negative way. So at the same time Janeway is suppose to have the future tech.
So you see it's not a violation of what future janeway did is already meant to happen.
"You ask why we give our ships computer normal emotions. Do you really want a warship incapable of loyalty?"
Why is that people keep saying that the ending was Temporal violation. It only become a temporal violation if what future Janeway did was not meant to happen.
Okay let take Relativity episode as example. The reason the temporal agent got Involve with because if captain Braxton had manage to blow up voyager than a lot of the timeline include the future will have been screwed. I say this because voyager is meant to get lost in the delta quadrant. That means Janeway was meant to save the Borg from Species 8472, the ship is suppose to have effect on the delta quadrant both positive and Negative way. So at the same time Janeway is suppose to have the future tech.
So you see it's not a violation of what future janeway did is already meant to happen.
ok the borg thing janeway saved them yes to get her crew out of borg space and also to save all of the universe they were not going to just stop at them think they put it wipe out all Organic life!!! ppl love to forget the little details
Why is that people keep saying that the ending was Temporal violation. It only become a temporal violation if what future Janeway did was not meant to happen.
Okay let take Relativity episode as example. The reason the temporal agent got Involve with because if captain Braxton had manage to blow up voyager than a lot of the timeline include the future will have been screwed. I say this because voyager is meant to get lost in the delta quadrant. That means Janeway was meant to save the Borg from Species 8472, the ship is suppose to have effect on the delta quadrant both positive and Negative way. So at the same time Janeway is suppose to have the future tech.
So you see it's not a violation of what future janeway did is already meant to happen.
no this is wrong. what is meant to happen is what occurs when there is no time travel at all. voyager was meant to take 23 years (i might be misremembering the time) to get home. that is what is meant to have happened.
by your own logic janeway erased 16 years of voyager travelling back to earth and removing all those interactions with other species that was meant to happen. just as voyager was meant to get lost, it was also meant to take that long to get home.
the temporal agents got involved in relativity because someone was trying to change time. so when janeway tried to change time, they should have gotten involved too. it would be no different if she tried to stop voyager getting lost at all.
she basically decided that the timeline sucked for her crew, cherry picked the moment to change history and decided on her own to make a new timeline that suited her. thats the actions of a typical trek 'bad guy' right there.
She would have been kicked out of Starfleet, but she re-routed all of Picard's promotions to her file and became one of the highest ranking admirals in Starfleet.
Oh, horse poo. So many temporal alterations have been done by Starfleet personnel and others since 1966 that the Eugenics War never happened. Surely some of you remember Khan from TOS episode "Space Seed," and the incomplete records of the Eugenics Wars of the 1990s. Yet in VOY episodes "Future's End" and "Future's End II," the Eugenics Wars did not occur at that time, due to temporal alterations.
As for Voyager having been "meant to" blah blah blah, Captain Braxton, at the end of "Future's End II," detected Voyager in the 20th century and returned the vessel to its previous coordinates and time in the Delta Quadrant, claiming that he could not transport the ship to Earth in the 24th century because that would have violated the Temporal Prime Directive. I don't recall anyone at that point saying that Voyager making their own way back would be a violation of the Temporal Prime Directive. Obviously, though, someone from Braxton's time would be prohibited from interfering in the timeline, unless absolutely necessary.
Genocide against the Borg? My heart bleeds. The Federation wasn't even "meant to" encounter the Borg when they did, but Q interfered and changed that. The Borg are, for the most part (with very rare exceptions) not even self-aware; they share a hive mind, dominated by a Queen (Memory Alpha denies that she or any other Borg is/was/will be self-aware, but I find that a dubious assertion). But wouldn't "genocide" at least imply the destruction of the entire Borg Collective? Why, then, do we still fight the Borg in STO, years after the events of "Endgame"? Memory Alpha says:
After this, there is no canon information on the state of the Collective. However, since the Borg controlled thousands of star systems and worlds, one can surmise that the destruction of the Unicomplex would not destroy the entire collective, or the queen for that matter, since Star Trek: Voyager shows the Collective to be capable of surviving a queen's death in 'Star Trek: First Contact'. It is also unknown if the neurolytic pathogen was an isolated phenomenon to the Unicomplex, or if it spread throughout the entire Collective, or how much damage it was able to deliver.
Why should the present Janeway be punished for any of this anyway. It was all done by her future version. Should she be punished for crimes she has yet to commit. (didn't go well for tom cruise) And anyway her future self was half assimilated, blown up and (presumably) wiped from history. I think that might be punishment enough. lol
What makes for genocide 5? 10? 100? 1000? Who sets the standard?
Captain Janeway, by no means committed genocide she didn't wipe out the borg as a race at all. but besides that fact the borg assimilate entire worlds there is no reasoning with them they are enemies of the federation the Klingon empire and the romulan star empire. Now if you think the destruction of a bunch of borg is genocide then how many stfs have you run? how many borg frontier missions have you done? how many borg have you killed?
If we use the example of genocide then every borg ship destroyed in tng and first contact is genocide.
Everyone knows that if they switched series and captain Sisko was in endgame the keepers of the sacred goatee wouldn't say a thing. :P
Every Starfleet captain violates the prime directive and temporal prime directive from kirk to picard to janeway to sisko.
no this is wrong. what is meant to happen is what occurs when there is no time travel at all. voyager was meant to take 23 years (i might be misremembering the time) to get home. that is what is meant to have happened.
by your own logic janeway erased 16 years of voyager travelling back to earth and removing all those interactions with other species that was meant to happen. just as voyager was meant to get lost, it was also meant to take that long to get home.
Standing at a point in the future and looking back at the past there is a way things are supposed to happen and a way that they are not. Lets stand in for the crew of the Wells here for a second and consider the situation. Up until the divergent point in the timelines the history and process of events take a standard path. The Wells intervenes as necessary because their history said so, even if they weren't aware at the time that history said so.
Now history says that Janeway made it home, but things are wrong as well. Significant advances in technology are behind the curve with regards to how it should have gone. It's alright though. Older Janeway travels back, accelerates her past self's return home, and inadvertently restores history to the way your texts say it happened. Everything, from the Wells' standpoint worked out correctly. The TPD won't let them do anything.
Now as far as Janeway being court-martialed, we really don't know what happened after they returned home and were debriefed. There most likely would have been those that would have wanted her pips and her head. The death of that many drones, even if they are an enemy faction, would have raised hackles and the flagrant abuse of the timeline, from their perspective, would have been more fuel to the fire. So the hearing probably did what it usually does to Captains too dangerous to leave roaming space; they gave her Admiral bars, got her out of active space duty, and buried her in paperwork. They can't get rid of her, she's too resourceful and dangerous, but they can keep her contained until they need someone like her again.
@captainrevo1; we know temporal incursion occur when any action taken by an individual or an agency use time travel in other to change history, so therefore yes we can say Future Janeway did that, but can we be sure that what she did wasn't part of what was meant to happen in the first place. Yes she will get her crew home the old fashion than get some tech along the line and loose people. Than come back later from the future and get them home early. The problem here so far is, if future Janeway is not changing the timeline than, what she did is not temporal incursion other wise, why would the temporal integrity commission agent allow it. Because it was already part of temporal future timeline so they don't need to change it.
"You ask why we give our ships computer normal emotions. Do you really want a warship incapable of loyalty?"
Comments
Either way, this thread seems pointless. If it's on the screen it's canon. CBS accepted it as canon, Paramount accept it as canon, and Cryptic accepted it as canon.
Which is one of the reasons why people prefer Enterprise to TNG. Comparing Enterprise to TNG, Archer is put into an impossible situation where he must choose between robbing an alien ship or dying out in the expanse. Arguably, the writers of TNG where more kindhearted with their pens because they never wrote a storyline where Picard would have his morals truly pushed to their limit again. In my estimation, Picard would have infected them in a heartbeat if the Federation survived because of it. I think Picard just didn't think it had gotten to that point yet.
shhhhhhhhhhh we don't talk about such things
system Lord Baal is dead
Let be Honest here, no captain in starfleet have ever been tested like the way janeway was. Flying through unknown space with no back up and no orders from home and all you have are your Principals to guide you through a Tough Situation. Sometime I think people forget that her she was not even gear for such a long deep space mission. She was suppose to just Intercept the maquis instead she end up 70 light years from home.
Since when is it that killing Borg are Consider as Genocide. I don't here anyone saying Borg Assimilate worlds are In fact committing genocide themselves.
The fact that, the future janeway went back in time, to bring her crew and ship back with the future technology, without any Temporal incursion occurring which will have been dim as a violation, means she was meant to go back to her past and give those tech to her self.
Why high treason, she did the federation a service instead. She and her crew got much intel on the delta quadrant and what you are forgetting is she push for those tech that was develop in the future to be develop, so she could save her crew one day. It was all about the family.:cool:
very much this though no one will admit to it
system Lord Baal is dead
Jeez....... when do you guys get it. I asked for Janeway to get court martialed because of poor decision making not because of her ****. As a matter of fact I liked her as a Captain and I liked the series. That does not excuse how the series ended.
But speaking of the Temporal Prime Directive...
If Janeway's action was disruptive to the Federation Time Line, the future temporal corps could simply 'undo' the action so they never happened...
And how can you explain the presence of the Doctor's mobile holographic emitter (from the future) contaminating the time line, unless its presence was actually intended...
If that is the case, that sucks big time. I think she did an excellent job giving the Situation. Let take the equinox captain, Ranson. this guy had fallen so bad, let take a look at what he was doing. turn alians into fuel so he can get his crew home. all the thing that he was far worse than what janeway did. He even try to destroy voyager. Captain Ranson committed genocide, he even forsake the fedaration Principal and janeway try to remind him about it.
http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/mods/1/14/13251/thumb_620x2000/heavydefender.jpg
omg you sooo get it very much this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ppl here would have gave him Medal
system Lord Baal is dead
What poor decision did she make. Giving the Situation I think she did a excellent job. She was after all in a region of space unexplored by the federation and she have no way of communication home for order. No back from any federation ships. Limited supply's, not enough Specialise crew for specific task. All she had was the crew which was just a stand crew for patrol Duties. The way the series ended was the way the writers choose it to end, nothing more. She was meant to give herself that tech simple as that. If she wasn't meant to have that tech, than she would have been stopped by the temporal agents.
As I said, it makes good storytelling when you use "time travel" to make the story more exciting. I have watched Star Trek, like many of you, since the beginning. Star Trek is all about the storytelling, the drama and suspense. And who am I to denounce it when they use time travel yet again? The season finale of Star Trek: Voyager was great, even though they used time travel. It's been a founding principle of almost every Star Trek movie and show since it's inception......and I'm alright with that.
Yeah, I was kind of wondering about this myself thus far.
Nice thread though.
lol, those poor heroic crew members!
In a way, the Doctor's Mobile Emitter parallels nicely with Scotty providing the formula for Transparent Aluminum.
Like you said, it was a predestination paradox, where the past was provided with the future and became the beginning of the technology. So the Temporal cops have no reason to interfere.
T.P.D. - She was playing with the natural order, and by definition - no one would know the complete effects of her actions....except maybe, like Q or something......
A rhetorical question - you said she blew up millions of Borg at the end. Since they aren't individuals, by their own admission, would it really be genocide? [Many nations dehumanize their enemy, makes them easier to kill.]
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system Lord Baal is dead
Okay let take Relativity episode as example. The reason the temporal agent got Involve with because if captain Braxton had manage to blow up voyager than a lot of the timeline include the future will have been screwed. I say this because voyager is meant to get lost in the delta quadrant. That means Janeway was meant to save the Borg from Species 8472, the ship is suppose to have effect on the delta quadrant both positive and Negative way. So at the same time Janeway is suppose to have the future tech.
So you see it's not a violation of what future janeway did is already meant to happen.
ok the borg thing janeway saved them yes to get her crew out of borg space and also to save all of the universe they were not going to just stop at them think they put it wipe out all Organic life!!! ppl love to forget the little details
system Lord Baal is dead
no this is wrong. what is meant to happen is what occurs when there is no time travel at all. voyager was meant to take 23 years (i might be misremembering the time) to get home. that is what is meant to have happened.
by your own logic janeway erased 16 years of voyager travelling back to earth and removing all those interactions with other species that was meant to happen. just as voyager was meant to get lost, it was also meant to take that long to get home.
the temporal agents got involved in relativity because someone was trying to change time. so when janeway tried to change time, they should have gotten involved too. it would be no different if she tried to stop voyager getting lost at all.
she basically decided that the timeline sucked for her crew, cherry picked the moment to change history and decided on her own to make a new timeline that suited her. thats the actions of a typical trek 'bad guy' right there.
system Lord Baal is dead
When will they learn?
As for Voyager having been "meant to" blah blah blah, Captain Braxton, at the end of "Future's End II," detected Voyager in the 20th century and returned the vessel to its previous coordinates and time in the Delta Quadrant, claiming that he could not transport the ship to Earth in the 24th century because that would have violated the Temporal Prime Directive. I don't recall anyone at that point saying that Voyager making their own way back would be a violation of the Temporal Prime Directive. Obviously, though, someone from Braxton's time would be prohibited from interfering in the timeline, unless absolutely necessary.
Genocide against the Borg? My heart bleeds. The Federation wasn't even "meant to" encounter the Borg when they did, but Q interfered and changed that. The Borg are, for the most part (with very rare exceptions) not even self-aware; they share a hive mind, dominated by a Queen (Memory Alpha denies that she or any other Borg is/was/will be self-aware, but I find that a dubious assertion). But wouldn't "genocide" at least imply the destruction of the entire Borg Collective? Why, then, do we still fight the Borg in STO, years after the events of "Endgame"? Memory Alpha says:
Mine Blown :P
Captain Janeway, by no means committed genocide she didn't wipe out the borg as a race at all. but besides that fact the borg assimilate entire worlds there is no reasoning with them they are enemies of the federation the Klingon empire and the romulan star empire. Now if you think the destruction of a bunch of borg is genocide then how many stfs have you run? how many borg frontier missions have you done? how many borg have you killed?
If we use the example of genocide then every borg ship destroyed in tng and first contact is genocide.
Everyone knows that if they switched series and captain Sisko was in endgame the keepers of the sacred goatee wouldn't say a thing. :P
Every Starfleet captain violates the prime directive and temporal prime directive from kirk to picard to janeway to sisko.
[/SIGPIC]
Standing at a point in the future and looking back at the past there is a way things are supposed to happen and a way that they are not. Lets stand in for the crew of the Wells here for a second and consider the situation. Up until the divergent point in the timelines the history and process of events take a standard path. The Wells intervenes as necessary because their history said so, even if they weren't aware at the time that history said so.
Now history says that Janeway made it home, but things are wrong as well. Significant advances in technology are behind the curve with regards to how it should have gone. It's alright though. Older Janeway travels back, accelerates her past self's return home, and inadvertently restores history to the way your texts say it happened. Everything, from the Wells' standpoint worked out correctly. The TPD won't let them do anything.
Now as far as Janeway being court-martialed, we really don't know what happened after they returned home and were debriefed. There most likely would have been those that would have wanted her pips and her head. The death of that many drones, even if they are an enemy faction, would have raised hackles and the flagrant abuse of the timeline, from their perspective, would have been more fuel to the fire. So the hearing probably did what it usually does to Captains too dangerous to leave roaming space; they gave her Admiral bars, got her out of active space duty, and buried her in paperwork. They can't get rid of her, she's too resourceful and dangerous, but they can keep her contained until they need someone like her again.