People seem to be under the false assumption you need double tap to kill in a timely manner, which simply is not true. Adapt and overcome stop being narrow minded and explore other options you wouldn't normally pursue.
P.S. I agree with mini to a degree, take away the double tap per say but only with the 5 sec in between keep torp powers the same.
In the interests of good relations, I am going to reply but I'm only going to say this once.
I am shredding posts that violate the forum rules. Period. Has nothing to do with who disagrees with what. Has more to do with how stuff gets said.
And discussion of moderation is forbidden, so we can end that side discussion right now.
Guys lets keep this civil and on topic and not throw toys out the pram. We are all shooting ourselves in the foot arguing and bickering who is right, we are civil human beings not barbarians and using brute force to make a point.
End of the day it is happening whether you like it or not.
Key thing now is to voice your concerns for or against in a constructive and civil manner. Acting the opposite will make you look like fools and just plain old QQing.
If you think it should stay justify and provide a 'reasonable' solution
Same goes for those that want this 'issue' fixed, justify, don't give silly answers like I get killed in 5 secs it's not fair, I was only farming, or If i can't do it neither can you replies or my fleet is better than yours.
Resistance is futile, adapt like the borg..
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Oh really? I like to see how you solo Hive Onslaught Elite. Better still, I shall enjoying seeing the Queen adding you to her Collective, LOL!
Lol that made me crack a smile. Those implants are not aesthetically pleasing to my already borked looks lol
But I wonder what Insta Vaping the borg Queen will bring. Highest Single crit I have got for a boss is 172k on ISS Stedl in mirror invasion, Vanished , vaped , vamooshed, vapourised
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
is it even beam overload (stupid lack of link between dps potential & power drain aside)of is it how eptx & batteries work?
eg,
if eptX power level boost wasnt near instant, but subject to the ships power rebuild/transfer rate,
and batteries,
rather than a timed device, where items that added a set amount of power to a system that was simply 'used' as an actual battery functions.
Something I had suggested before, would be to treat EPtX like "emergency transfer", such that you basically get a gain in power on the targeted subsystem by taking a short-term loss in all other susbystems. Something like +15 in the affected subsystem, with -5 in the other three. If you are running two of them, say EPtS and EPtW, then after all the additions and subtractions you are going to end up with +10 in shields and weapons, and -10 in engines and aux. This is because there is no pool for emergency power, so the only place it can come from (other than "thin air") is from the other subsystems, which is appropriate for "emergency" powers.
I'd also like to see all of the Aux-to-whatever consume aux power.
You cant deny it was the most efficient way to kill when done right. :P
Yes Strike, we will adapt andp pursue new ways, until those are nerfed too, and so on and so on.
Until the last ability we can possibly make kills with (ramming speed , abandon ship) are nerfed and we all go *fireworks* and blow ourselves up
Ramming speed was nerfed during/after season 1.
Anyone remember the super rams of old? Good times.
Abandon ship was also needed shortly after the foundry got released.
Missions where you died, warp core explodes causing chaining explosions... Good times. It also got nerfed where you have to be under 50% hull to use it and it can't damage friendlies. I remember a time going to ESD was a scary thing in a starter ship... All the vets blowing themselves up at the spawn point for the map killing anyone go came in...
Now I have not read the whole thread but from what I can summarize is that BO-DT is too powerfull, yet quite a few see it justified because of the large heal power in the game. As probably many of you know there are boff abilities out there to counter cloak and alphas. example: cpb, tb, aceton beam, sensorscan (with doff), gravwell and last but not least passive stealth sight with certain abilities that enhance it.
We can all agree that Sci Control needs a buff maybe even a complete overhall (especially stealth sight). so why nerf/change tactical abilities or healing when the devs now have the chance to create some balance in pvp by giving the Sci Controll the overhaul/buff it has been waiting for....
just my opinion....
why nerf something when other factors have not even been fixed or enhanced to the current gameplay ?
What about PvE BO is a joke skill
Beam users only have one special attack BFAW
BO needs 4 or 5 attacks one behind another like the Romulan singularity core give romulans as part of there warp core....Hello McFly !!!
Beams also need a rapid fire against one target so beam users get the same proc chance a cannon user gets using CRF
The game needs more than one weapon type
Equal but differnt.....cant be that hard
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
All it takes is 1 second to kill a player, leaving bop players a free 4 seconds to smoke their victory cigar
With the amount of bleedthrough doffs (BO stacking) and criticals ...it is now possible to kill a player with 75% shield resistence no matter if you have TSS + TT + RSP or eptS all working together, since a specially equipped bop or romulan spiker can shoot through that tough shield exterior without blanching with ease.... granted it requires timing and precision for a bop spiker but then again it requires defending players an equal amount of ...say 10 shield buffs and heal buffs to defend a op spike dmg attack in a single second....
oh wait ...that's right it doesn't work anymore since bleedthrough is so bad..that those spikers will penetrate your heavily defended shields regardless..... take it from me, having over 10 defensive buffs readily when minimax used his spike on me....well it was a surprise when his attack ignored my shields and popped my 60k hull boat inside a second despite the fact i had rsp III + TSS II + TT II + and Rotate shield frequency with high auxiliary power active...much to my disgust
where are your neutroniums, hazards, a2s, ph, jump console, a2d, evasives, jam sensors etc. etc.
btw I enjoy getting my TRIBBLE blown up by mini :P I find it hilarious but cryptic's power creeps are delving deep into weapons that is making gameplay unbearable
cheers vang, few have played the other side as often and well as you. your accurate summation of the situation makes me smile. the new doff that bypassed shields gave teeth to my spike even if i attacked at the "wrong time"
against the vangs renims and lacus of the world spike never has had 100% success rate when generated from a single ship. even psw doesnt guarantee a kill.
vang and others know it isnt that luck shot vape thats the problem, its that u dont even need to be lucky or good anymore. the style itself was fine, the boosts/new doff/rep pushed it into questionable territory.
and the fact that minmax died so easy from heavy spec and boff inveztment made instant death easier to swallow. now zombie rom rolls thru one shots and is 15 k away in a blink.
not a thing to do with marion or double tap, which vang has been surviving for months (mostly)
All it takes is 1 second to kill a player, leaving bop players a free 4 seconds to smoke their victory cigar
With the amount of bleedthrough doffs (BO stacking) and criticals ...it is now possible to kill a player with 75% shield resistence no matter if you have TSS + TT + RSP or eptS all working together, since a specially equipped bop or romulan spiker can shoot through that tough shield exterior without blanching with ease.... granted it requires timing and precision for a bop spiker but then again it requires defending players an equal amount of ...say 10 shield buffs and heal buffs to defend a op spike dmg attack in a single second....
What you are describing is a once in a blue moon lucky shot. For shots to bypass shields like that you will need have the planets lining up correctly all at once. The Elachi weapons have a 2.5% chance of doing 100% shield bypass for that particular shot in question, after that, there is 5 seconds internal CD. Not only that, you will need to be extremely unlucky for that one single shot to be a Beam Overload as opposed to a regular non-buff shot. Needless to say, it is highly improbable considering every shot has a chance of missing their target based on your defense value. On average, 30% of shots will miss, possibly higher depending on your build and skills. Even then, it is only that on single shot that will go through the shields, nothing else. A single Beam Overload should be insufficient to kill a player outright unless the target is a BoP, even if it crits. With the resistance that most PvPers have, it's rare to see any single crit that goes any higher than 45K. Sure some people like to boast about some 100K numbers, don't put much stock into that, that's highly unlikely against well spec PvPers. Furthermore, even a Romulan specializing in crit will have about 20% critical chance. So you do 2.5% X 70 % X 20% => approximately 0.35% chance of a super lucky critical Beam Overload from Elachi weapon assuming a shot from a Romulan with corresponding Boffs. For a Federation or Klingon without those Boffs, the probability will be even much lower.
oh wait ...that's right it doesn't work anymore since bleedthrough is so bad..that those spikers will penetrate your heavily defended shields regardless..... take it from me, having over 10 defensive buffs readily when minimax used his spike on me....well it was a surprise when his attack ignored my shields and popped my 60k hull boat inside a second despite the fact i had rsp III + TSS II + TT II + and Rotate shield frequency with high auxiliary power active...much to my disgust
I spoke to Mini last night, he is still understandably quite upset with the BO nerf. There is one thing he said that needs to be repeated here because it is true - he is far from the worst abuser of the BO exploit. He may have invented the technique but it's some of those who copied him after that made builds entirely around it that wreck the boat. Mini actually tries to fight people, as opposed to ding them with a disgusting kaboom. That's part of the reason why he dies a lot. Once you get used to his tactics, which there aren't many variations, you get used to his ambushes in Kerrat. What's harder to evade is when you are in an Arena PvP and chaos everywhere, a cloaked T'Varo will snipe you first with BO I + 3 X BO doffs that give additional shield penetration for 4 sec at about 66% of the time, then immediately follow by HY Torpedos and a BO III. Not sure how anyone can survive that. Unlike the once in a blue moon occurrence described above, the BO double tap + 3 X BO doffs will kill any ship with a minimum of 66% of probability even without any critical hits, possibly higher because with so much burst, the BO doff proc may become redundant regardless. This kind of example is why there is not a shadow of doubt that the double tap is an exploit from top to bottom. With all the chaos that's going around you in an Arena PvP, it is not possible for a person to be able to watch out for a sniper like that, unlike in Kerrat.
What's harder to evade is when you are in an Arena PvP and chaos everywhere,...With all the chaos that's going around you in an Arena PvP, it is not possible for a person to be able to watch out for a sniper like that,...
There are these things called "team mates".
They help keep you alive.
They watch out for decloakers.
I know this because I have them, and when we test our decloak builds on each other in 5v5 inter-fleet battles, there are ways to defend against the tactic, and ways to punish the opposing team or the decloaker.
So apparently we are doing something that is actually, truly, impossible?
cheers vang, few have played the other side as often and well as you. your accurate summation of the situation makes me smile. the new doff that bypassed shields gave teeth to my spike even if i attacked at the "wrong time"
against the vangs renims and lacus of the world spike never has had 100% success rate when generated from a single ship. even psw doesnt guarantee a kill.
vang and others know it isnt that luck shot vape thats the problem, its that u dont even need to be lucky or good anymore. the style itself was fine, the boosts/new doff/rep pushed it into questionable territory.
and the fact that minmax died so easy from heavy spec and boff inveztment made instant death easier to swallow. now zombie rom rolls thru one shots and is 15 k away in a blink.
not a thing to do with marion or double tap, which vang has been surviving for months (mostly)
ggs and i take back 99% of bad i said about u :-)
The best defense against spike is still speed. Once moved past your tractor range, not only your beams are greatly reduced in strength, they are also more likely to miss and once outside of your firing range - nothing can be done. Instead, your decloaked ship can't recloak immediately. So a tractor here or GW there, your ship will be like a bug stuck in a spider's web.
I know this because I have them, and when we test our decloak builds on each other in 5v5 inter-fleet battles, there are ways to defend against the tactic, and ways to punish the opposing team or the decloaker.
So apparently we are doing something that is actually, truly, impossible?
Or is it just impossible for you?
The vast majority of fleets, even the big one like mine, do close to zero PvP. I am the only one who does any PvP with any regularity. Then I can count on one hand the number of them that do the very occasional Arena, out of an active fleet of 300+ people.
More to the point, I am a casual gamer, not a hard core pro. PvP in fact occupies a small portion of my time, I do many other things - like train people, help newbies, review their builds, do testing, doff-ing - a lot other things and yes, PvE too. When I PvP, I made a point of not taking part in premade teams unless my fleet is having a casual among ourselves. Being a lone wolf by nature, I enjoy my freedom and my builds reflect the self-reliance of that.
Last but not least, teammates can't save your bacon when your opponents know they are doing. The fact is if your opponents are any good, you will not have the time or the ability to spare heals for your teammate who will die in just 2 seconds. Proof of that, this past weekend, I camped out in my Romulan fighting the premade HOBO who were lurking in Kerrat, hunting unsuspected Feds in group. HOBO, being a large premade fleet, is well organized to say the least. They do the exact things you described, watch out for each other and decloakers. I was hunting alone, it didn't stop me from killing several of their members who btw are all PvP forum regulars here, before getting away. I don't even use Double Tap and typically need at least 5-10 seconds to do the job. This shows what you said is good in theory but a skilled double tapper will need much less time than I do and can get away far easier. So if your opponents are TRIBBLE, sure, you can cross-heal all you want. But if your opponents are determined to out cheese you, which is extremely easy to do, I can think of at least 100 ways to out cheese a premade team in a pre-determined environment. Have everyone equipped with a 1 minute long Graviton Pulse, using it one at a time. Your entire team will spend the whole time getting stucked in it.
the new doff that bypassed shields gave teeth to my spike even if i attacked at the "wrong time"
That's not entirely true. You will need the double tap to make it work however. The BO doff does nothing on the first BO. If it does proc, it's the subsequent attacks, not on the initial BO itself.
The 5 seconds delay wasn't some out of blue number I pulled out of thin air, it was precisely chosen so that the BO doff proc will wear off by the time the 2nd BO hits. With one set of Torpedo HY doing 45% of penetration at most subsequently, the spike will be much less than before. Unless you are using the Elachi weapon, I think you will notice that the BO doff proc will be much less useful without double tap given that Torpedo do not instant hit and can miss.
The fact is if your opponents are any good, you will not have the time or the ability to spare heals for your teammate who will die in just 2 seconds. Proof of that, this past weekend, I camped out in my Romulan fighting the premade HOBO who were lurking in Kerrat, hunting unsuspected Feds in group. HOBO, being a large premade fleet, is well organized to say the least.
HOBOs are a very large fleet, with a very small number of players who do premade PvP, and I believe some of their best left a while back.
So if your opponents are TRIBBLE, sure, you can cross-heal all you want.
If you ask practically any PvPer who the best double-taper in the game is, they'll tell you it is MT, who is of course in Pandas. The implication that our testing is flawed because we don't go up against skilled enough vapers is rather laughable.
But if your opponents are determined to out cheese you, which is extremely easy to do, I can think of at least 100 ways to out cheese a premade team in a pre-determined environment. Have everyone equipped with a 1 minute long Graviton Pulse, using it one at a time. Your entire team will spend the whole time getting stucked in it.
Ultimatum doesn't use GPG in PvP. No one in Pandas uses GPG. Every single one of us thinks that 50+s GPG is unreasonable and should be nerfed. The reason behind Ultimatum's thread in his signature is to draw the right kind of attention to the power that will result in it being severely dialed back -- the thought is that the devs are more likely to fix an out of line power if it can be demonstrated to break PvE and STFs in particular. If you had actually read through his thread you would have noticed this quote:
HOBOs are a very large fleet, with a small number of players who do premade PvP, and I believe some of the better ones left a while back.
Not wanting to get into fleet politics since it's off topic and the mods are especially edgy when anyone talks about specific fleets too much - let's just say the ones this past weekend are very good. Like I said, most of them are regular posters here in the PvP forum but I will not name them though I have no doubt you will recognize them immediately. They are definitely not 2nd class PvPers, that much I can say.
If you ask practically any PvPer who the best double-taper in the game is, they'll tell you it is MT, who is of course in Pandas. The implication that our testing is flawed because we don't go up against skilled enough vapers is rather laughable.
You read too much into my statement. I also think you are stretching the truth a little here, not going to say anymore beyond that because I want to stay on topic.
oh wait ...that's right it doesn't work anymore since bleedthrough is so bad..that those spikers will penetrate your heavily defended shields regardless..... take it from me, having over 10 defensive buffs readily when minimax used his spike on me....well it was a surprise when his attack ignored my shields and popped my 60k hull boat inside a second despite the fact i had rsp III + TSS II + TT II + and Rotate shield frequency with high auxiliary power active...much to my disgust
That just about summarizes the state of the game at present really, pre and post BO nerf. Extreme resists and heals.
I've played against you yesterday, you were indeed hard to pop as it should be really, one Double tapper shouldn't be able to vape a decent build really, unless you have two in coordination.
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
They can't nerf stacking HY & TS! If I couldn't have stacked the TS and HY to go with the Plasma Destabilizer...I could have never gotten the epic suicide that I did for my new sig.
They can't nerf stacking HY & TS! If I couldn't have stacked the TS and HY to go with the Plasma Destabilizer...I could have never gotten the epic suicide that I did for my new sig.
Meh, I had a destablised torp deal 76 k to me lol
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Here's an example of what I meant about DRR going negative.
[Combat (Self)] Your Destabilized Plasma Torpedo deals 113031 (51321) Kinetic Damage to Tactical Cube.
That's ~220% damage...because of stacked debuffs.
The (X) number's within that typical range for the listed damage of 54.7k for the Beach Ball.
I try picturing that amount of debuff stacking, with a Tac doing the APA3/APO3/Rom Ambush...having all the BOFFs, better consoles, etc, etc, etc...
Yeah, I think there's more things that Cryptic needs to look at...but they won't because they're PvE things. Only if they're massively borking the 15 Minute Golden Rule will things get looked at there...
Heh, mixed consoles from dorking around with things and just goofing around in general.
I posted this in a thread discussing DRR debuff stacking...
I try picturing that amount of debuff stacking, with a Tac doing the APA3/APO3/Rom Ambush...having all the BOFFs, better consoles, etc, etc, etc...
Yeah, I think there's more things that Cryptic needs to look at...but they won't because they're PvE things. Only if they're massively borking the 15 Minute Golden Rule will things get looked at there...
Ouch that is a high number, having said that I did 176k on ISS Stedl once in Mirror invasion with a single BO... Couldn't believe how squishy it was considering I am a n00b
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
More to the point, I am a casual gamer, not a hard core pro. PvP in fact occupies a small portion of my time, I do many other things - like train people, help newbies, review their builds, do testing, doff-ing - a lot other things and yes, PvE too. When I PvP, I made a point of not taking part in premade teams unless my fleet is having a casual among ourselves. Being a lone wolf by nature, I enjoy my freedom and my builds reflect the self-reliance of that. Some members of your fleet, which I met in Arena and C&H are pretty damn awful on their own. It's as though they don't know how to fight outside of a premade team. Perhaps you need more 1 on 1 training as opposed to needing be babysit all the time?
Fascinating post, but as someone once told me, everyone has a role, sometimes sacrificing Heals for other stuff may actually help the team.
Not everyone can afford countless respec tokens and re roll toons just for the lolz to play in Kerrat or Pugs. In fact what you see in the queues may not be how they play in pre mades. Sometimes people just play in pugs to let their hair down and have some pew pew and less QQ
E.g Extending someone constantly means they don't need to worry much about shields and have increased resistance.
I seen a 5 team Tac cruisers do this once, a circle of extends, brutally effective against the unprepared and even may give premades a run for their money
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Comments
Hell man, the man spoke sense :0
+1 to this.....
Guys lets keep this civil and on topic and not throw toys out the pram. We are all shooting ourselves in the foot arguing and bickering who is right, we are civil human beings not barbarians and using brute force to make a point.
End of the day it is happening whether you like it or not.
Key thing now is to voice your concerns for or against in a constructive and civil manner. Acting the opposite will make you look like fools and just plain old QQing.
If you think it should stay justify and provide a 'reasonable' solution
Same goes for those that want this 'issue' fixed, justify, don't give silly answers like I get killed in 5 secs it's not fair, I was only farming, or If i can't do it neither can you replies or my fleet is better than yours.
Resistance is futile, adapt like the borg..
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Lol that made me crack a smile. Those implants are not aesthetically pleasing to my already borked looks lol
But I wonder what Insta Vaping the borg Queen will bring. Highest Single crit I have got for a boss is 172k on ISS Stedl in mirror invasion, Vanished , vaped , vamooshed, vapourised
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Something I had suggested before, would be to treat EPtX like "emergency transfer", such that you basically get a gain in power on the targeted subsystem by taking a short-term loss in all other susbystems. Something like +15 in the affected subsystem, with -5 in the other three. If you are running two of them, say EPtS and EPtW, then after all the additions and subtractions you are going to end up with +10 in shields and weapons, and -10 in engines and aux. This is because there is no pool for emergency power, so the only place it can come from (other than "thin air") is from the other subsystems, which is appropriate for "emergency" powers.
I'd also like to see all of the Aux-to-whatever consume aux power.
You cant deny it was the most efficient way to kill when done right. :P
Yes Strike, we will adapt andp pursue new ways, until those are nerfed too, and so on and so on.
Until the last ability we can possibly make kills with (ramming speed , abandon ship) are nerfed and we all go *fireworks* and blow ourselves up
Basically, yes.
Adapt and pursue the next, lesser, method.
Or eventually cave in and use every 1-click wonder console
Ramming speed was nerfed during/after season 1.
Anyone remember the super rams of old? Good times.
Abandon ship was also needed shortly after the foundry got released.
Missions where you died, warp core explodes causing chaining explosions... Good times. It also got nerfed where you have to be under 50% hull to use it and it can't damage friendlies. I remember a time going to ESD was a scary thing in a starter ship... All the vets blowing themselves up at the spawn point for the map killing anyone go came in...
Good times...
Do you even Science Bro?
We can all agree that Sci Control needs a buff maybe even a complete overhall (especially stealth sight). so why nerf/change tactical abilities or healing when the devs now have the chance to create some balance in pvp by giving the Sci Controll the overhaul/buff it has been waiting for....
just my opinion....
why nerf something when other factors have not even been fixed or enhanced to the current gameplay ?
This may be a Fix for PvP
What about PvE BO is a joke skill
Beam users only have one special attack BFAW
BO needs 4 or 5 attacks one behind another like the Romulan singularity core give romulans as part of there warp core....Hello McFly !!!
Beams also need a rapid fire against one target so beam users get the same proc chance a cannon user gets using CRF
The game needs more than one weapon type
Equal but differnt.....cant be that hard
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
**facepalm
where are your neutroniums, hazards, a2s, ph, jump console, a2d, evasives, jam sensors etc. etc.
a2s is a major life saver
What flavor of weapons did Mini hit you with...?
cheers vang, few have played the other side as often and well as you. your accurate summation of the situation makes me smile. the new doff that bypassed shields gave teeth to my spike even if i attacked at the "wrong time"
against the vangs renims and lacus of the world spike never has had 100% success rate when generated from a single ship. even psw doesnt guarantee a kill.
vang and others know it isnt that luck shot vape thats the problem, its that u dont even need to be lucky or good anymore. the style itself was fine, the boosts/new doff/rep pushed it into questionable territory.
and the fact that minmax died so easy from heavy spec and boff inveztment made instant death easier to swallow. now zombie rom rolls thru one shots and is 15 k away in a blink.
not a thing to do with marion or double tap, which vang has been surviving for months (mostly)
ggs and i take back 99% of bad i said about u :-)
Gali some people hope the game eventually lets them have permanent RSP uptime.
100% RSP.
Remove SNB.
Remove APA.
Basically anything that kills their ship is too strong.
What you are describing is a once in a blue moon lucky shot. For shots to bypass shields like that you will need have the planets lining up correctly all at once. The Elachi weapons have a 2.5% chance of doing 100% shield bypass for that particular shot in question, after that, there is 5 seconds internal CD. Not only that, you will need to be extremely unlucky for that one single shot to be a Beam Overload as opposed to a regular non-buff shot. Needless to say, it is highly improbable considering every shot has a chance of missing their target based on your defense value. On average, 30% of shots will miss, possibly higher depending on your build and skills. Even then, it is only that on single shot that will go through the shields, nothing else. A single Beam Overload should be insufficient to kill a player outright unless the target is a BoP, even if it crits. With the resistance that most PvPers have, it's rare to see any single crit that goes any higher than 45K. Sure some people like to boast about some 100K numbers, don't put much stock into that, that's highly unlikely against well spec PvPers. Furthermore, even a Romulan specializing in crit will have about 20% critical chance. So you do 2.5% X 70 % X 20% => approximately 0.35% chance of a super lucky critical Beam Overload from Elachi weapon assuming a shot from a Romulan with corresponding Boffs. For a Federation or Klingon without those Boffs, the probability will be even much lower.
I spoke to Mini last night, he is still understandably quite upset with the BO nerf. There is one thing he said that needs to be repeated here because it is true - he is far from the worst abuser of the BO exploit. He may have invented the technique but it's some of those who copied him after that made builds entirely around it that wreck the boat. Mini actually tries to fight people, as opposed to ding them with a disgusting kaboom. That's part of the reason why he dies a lot. Once you get used to his tactics, which there aren't many variations, you get used to his ambushes in Kerrat. What's harder to evade is when you are in an Arena PvP and chaos everywhere, a cloaked T'Varo will snipe you first with BO I + 3 X BO doffs that give additional shield penetration for 4 sec at about 66% of the time, then immediately follow by HY Torpedos and a BO III. Not sure how anyone can survive that. Unlike the once in a blue moon occurrence described above, the BO double tap + 3 X BO doffs will kill any ship with a minimum of 66% of probability even without any critical hits, possibly higher because with so much burst, the BO doff proc may become redundant regardless. This kind of example is why there is not a shadow of doubt that the double tap is an exploit from top to bottom. With all the chaos that's going around you in an Arena PvP, it is not possible for a person to be able to watch out for a sniper like that, unlike in Kerrat.
There are these things called "team mates".
They help keep you alive.
They watch out for decloakers.
I know this because I have them, and when we test our decloak builds on each other in 5v5 inter-fleet battles, there are ways to defend against the tactic, and ways to punish the opposing team or the decloaker.
So apparently we are doing something that is actually, truly, impossible?
Or is it just impossible for you?
The best defense against spike is still speed. Once moved past your tractor range, not only your beams are greatly reduced in strength, they are also more likely to miss and once outside of your firing range - nothing can be done. Instead, your decloaked ship can't recloak immediately. So a tractor here or GW there, your ship will be like a bug stuck in a spider's web.
Yeah, but that 1% was the worst part!
The vast majority of fleets, even the big one like mine, do close to zero PvP. I am the only one who does any PvP with any regularity. Then I can count on one hand the number of them that do the very occasional Arena, out of an active fleet of 300+ people.
More to the point, I am a casual gamer, not a hard core pro. PvP in fact occupies a small portion of my time, I do many other things - like train people, help newbies, review their builds, do testing, doff-ing - a lot other things and yes, PvE too. When I PvP, I made a point of not taking part in premade teams unless my fleet is having a casual among ourselves. Being a lone wolf by nature, I enjoy my freedom and my builds reflect the self-reliance of that.
Last but not least, teammates can't save your bacon when your opponents know they are doing. The fact is if your opponents are any good, you will not have the time or the ability to spare heals for your teammate who will die in just 2 seconds. Proof of that, this past weekend, I camped out in my Romulan fighting the premade HOBO who were lurking in Kerrat, hunting unsuspected Feds in group. HOBO, being a large premade fleet, is well organized to say the least. They do the exact things you described, watch out for each other and decloakers. I was hunting alone, it didn't stop me from killing several of their members who btw are all PvP forum regulars here, before getting away. I don't even use Double Tap and typically need at least 5-10 seconds to do the job. This shows what you said is good in theory but a skilled double tapper will need much less time than I do and can get away far easier. So if your opponents are TRIBBLE, sure, you can cross-heal all you want. But if your opponents are determined to out cheese you, which is extremely easy to do, I can think of at least 100 ways to out cheese a premade team in a pre-determined environment. Have everyone equipped with a 1 minute long Graviton Pulse, using it one at a time. Your entire team will spend the whole time getting stucked in it.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~Bluegeek
That's not entirely true. You will need the double tap to make it work however. The BO doff does nothing on the first BO. If it does proc, it's the subsequent attacks, not on the initial BO itself.
It should not be a surprise to you that this was considered when this thread was made : http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=834021
The 5 seconds delay wasn't some out of blue number I pulled out of thin air, it was precisely chosen so that the BO doff proc will wear off by the time the 2nd BO hits. With one set of Torpedo HY doing 45% of penetration at most subsequently, the spike will be much less than before. Unless you are using the Elachi weapon, I think you will notice that the BO doff proc will be much less useful without double tap given that Torpedo do not instant hit and can miss.
HOBOs are a very large fleet, with a very small number of players who do premade PvP, and I believe some of their best left a while back.
If you ask practically any PvPer who the best double-taper in the game is, they'll tell you it is MT, who is of course in Pandas. The implication that our testing is flawed because we don't go up against skilled enough vapers is rather laughable.
Ultimatum doesn't use GPG in PvP. No one in Pandas uses GPG. Every single one of us thinks that 50+s GPG is unreasonable and should be nerfed. The reason behind Ultimatum's thread in his signature is to draw the right kind of attention to the power that will result in it being severely dialed back -- the thought is that the devs are more likely to fix an out of line power if it can be demonstrated to break PvE and STFs in particular. If you had actually read through his thread you would have noticed this quote:
Not wanting to get into fleet politics since it's off topic and the mods are especially edgy when anyone talks about specific fleets too much - let's just say the ones this past weekend are very good. Like I said, most of them are regular posters here in the PvP forum but I will not name them though I have no doubt you will recognize them immediately. They are definitely not 2nd class PvPers, that much I can say.
You read too much into my statement. I also think you are stretching the truth a little here, not going to say anymore beyond that because I want to stay on topic.
That just about summarizes the state of the game at present really, pre and post BO nerf. Extreme resists and heals.
I've played against you yesterday, you were indeed hard to pop as it should be really, one Double tapper shouldn't be able to vape a decent build really, unless you have two in coordination.
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Meh, I had a destablised torp deal 76 k to me lol
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Heh, mixed consoles from dorking around with things and just goofing around in general.
I posted this in a thread discussing DRR debuff stacking...
I try picturing that amount of debuff stacking, with a Tac doing the APA3/APO3/Rom Ambush...having all the BOFFs, better consoles, etc, etc, etc...
Yeah, I think there's more things that Cryptic needs to look at...but they won't because they're PvE things. Only if they're massively borking the 15 Minute Golden Rule will things get looked at there...
Ouch that is a high number, having said that I did 176k on ISS Stedl once in Mirror invasion with a single BO... Couldn't believe how squishy it was considering I am a n00b
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Fascinating post, but as someone once told me, everyone has a role, sometimes sacrificing Heals for other stuff may actually help the team.
Not everyone can afford countless respec tokens and re roll toons just for the lolz to play in Kerrat or Pugs. In fact what you see in the queues may not be how they play in pre mades. Sometimes people just play in pugs to let their hair down and have some pew pew and less QQ
E.g Extending someone constantly means they don't need to worry much about shields and have increased resistance.
I seen a 5 team Tac cruisers do this once, a circle of extends, brutally effective against the unprepared and even may give premades a run for their money
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)