I know this because I have them, and when we test our decloak builds on each other in 5v5 inter-fleet battles, there are ways to defend against the tactic, and ways to punish the opposing team or the decloaker.
So apparently we are doing something that is actually, truly, impossible?
Or is it just impossible for you?
The vast majority of fleets, even the big one like mine, do close to zero PvP. I am the only one who does any PvP with any regularity. Then I can count on one hand the number of them that do the very occasional Arena, out of an active fleet of 300+ people.
More to the point, I am a casual gamer, not a hard core pro. PvP in fact occupies a small portion of my time, I do many other things - like train people, help newbies, review their builds, do testing, doff-ing - a lot other things and yes, PvE too. When I PvP, I made a point of not taking part in premade teams unless my fleet is having a casual among ourselves. Being a lone wolf by nature, I enjoy my freedom and my builds reflect the self-reliance of that.
Last but not least, teammates can't save your bacon when your opponents know they are doing. The fact is if your opponents are any good, you will not have the time or the ability to spare heals for your teammate who will die in just 2 seconds. Proof of that, this past weekend, I camped out in my Romulan fighting the premade HOBO who were lurking in Kerrat, hunting unsuspected Feds in group. HOBO, being a large premade fleet, is well organized to say the least. They do the exact things you described, watch out for each other and decloakers. I was hunting alone, it didn't stop me from killing several of their members who btw are all PvP forum regulars here, before getting away. I don't even use Double Tap and typically need at least 5-10 seconds to do the job. This shows what you said is good in theory but a skilled double tapper will need much less time than I do and can get away far easier. So if your opponents are TRIBBLE, sure, you can cross-heal all you want. But if your opponents are determined to out cheese you, which is extremely easy to do, I can think of at least 100 ways to out cheese a premade team in a pre-determined environment. Have everyone equipped with a 1 minute long Graviton Pulse, using it one at a time. Your entire team will spend the whole time getting stucked in it.
the new doff that bypassed shields gave teeth to my spike even if i attacked at the "wrong time"
That's not entirely true. You will need the double tap to make it work however. The BO doff does nothing on the first BO. If it does proc, it's the subsequent attacks, not on the initial BO itself.
The 5 seconds delay wasn't some out of blue number I pulled out of thin air, it was precisely chosen so that the BO doff proc will wear off by the time the 2nd BO hits. With one set of Torpedo HY doing 45% of penetration at most subsequently, the spike will be much less than before. Unless you are using the Elachi weapon, I think you will notice that the BO doff proc will be much less useful without double tap given that Torpedo do not instant hit and can miss.
The fact is if your opponents are any good, you will not have the time or the ability to spare heals for your teammate who will die in just 2 seconds. Proof of that, this past weekend, I camped out in my Romulan fighting the premade HOBO who were lurking in Kerrat, hunting unsuspected Feds in group. HOBO, being a large premade fleet, is well organized to say the least.
HOBOs are a very large fleet, with a very small number of players who do premade PvP, and I believe some of their best left a while back.
So if your opponents are TRIBBLE, sure, you can cross-heal all you want.
If you ask practically any PvPer who the best double-taper in the game is, they'll tell you it is MT, who is of course in Pandas. The implication that our testing is flawed because we don't go up against skilled enough vapers is rather laughable.
But if your opponents are determined to out cheese you, which is extremely easy to do, I can think of at least 100 ways to out cheese a premade team in a pre-determined environment. Have everyone equipped with a 1 minute long Graviton Pulse, using it one at a time. Your entire team will spend the whole time getting stucked in it.
Ultimatum doesn't use GPG in PvP. No one in Pandas uses GPG. Every single one of us thinks that 50+s GPG is unreasonable and should be nerfed. The reason behind Ultimatum's thread in his signature is to draw the right kind of attention to the power that will result in it being severely dialed back -- the thought is that the devs are more likely to fix an out of line power if it can be demonstrated to break PvE and STFs in particular. If you had actually read through his thread you would have noticed this quote:
HOBOs are a very large fleet, with a small number of players who do premade PvP, and I believe some of the better ones left a while back.
Not wanting to get into fleet politics since it's off topic and the mods are especially edgy when anyone talks about specific fleets too much - let's just say the ones this past weekend are very good. Like I said, most of them are regular posters here in the PvP forum but I will not name them though I have no doubt you will recognize them immediately. They are definitely not 2nd class PvPers, that much I can say.
If you ask practically any PvPer who the best double-taper in the game is, they'll tell you it is MT, who is of course in Pandas. The implication that our testing is flawed because we don't go up against skilled enough vapers is rather laughable.
You read too much into my statement. I also think you are stretching the truth a little here, not going to say anymore beyond that because I want to stay on topic.
oh wait ...that's right it doesn't work anymore since bleedthrough is so bad..that those spikers will penetrate your heavily defended shields regardless..... take it from me, having over 10 defensive buffs readily when minimax used his spike on me....well it was a surprise when his attack ignored my shields and popped my 60k hull boat inside a second despite the fact i had rsp III + TSS II + TT II + and Rotate shield frequency with high auxiliary power active...much to my disgust
That just about summarizes the state of the game at present really, pre and post BO nerf. Extreme resists and heals.
I've played against you yesterday, you were indeed hard to pop as it should be really, one Double tapper shouldn't be able to vape a decent build really, unless you have two in coordination.
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
They can't nerf stacking HY & TS! If I couldn't have stacked the TS and HY to go with the Plasma Destabilizer...I could have never gotten the epic suicide that I did for my new sig.
They can't nerf stacking HY & TS! If I couldn't have stacked the TS and HY to go with the Plasma Destabilizer...I could have never gotten the epic suicide that I did for my new sig.
Meh, I had a destablised torp deal 76 k to me lol
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Here's an example of what I meant about DRR going negative.
[Combat (Self)] Your Destabilized Plasma Torpedo deals 113031 (51321) Kinetic Damage to Tactical Cube.
That's ~220% damage...because of stacked debuffs.
The (X) number's within that typical range for the listed damage of 54.7k for the Beach Ball.
I try picturing that amount of debuff stacking, with a Tac doing the APA3/APO3/Rom Ambush...having all the BOFFs, better consoles, etc, etc, etc...
Yeah, I think there's more things that Cryptic needs to look at...but they won't because they're PvE things. Only if they're massively borking the 15 Minute Golden Rule will things get looked at there...
Heh, mixed consoles from dorking around with things and just goofing around in general.
I posted this in a thread discussing DRR debuff stacking...
I try picturing that amount of debuff stacking, with a Tac doing the APA3/APO3/Rom Ambush...having all the BOFFs, better consoles, etc, etc, etc...
Yeah, I think there's more things that Cryptic needs to look at...but they won't because they're PvE things. Only if they're massively borking the 15 Minute Golden Rule will things get looked at there...
Ouch that is a high number, having said that I did 176k on ISS Stedl once in Mirror invasion with a single BO... Couldn't believe how squishy it was considering I am a n00b
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
More to the point, I am a casual gamer, not a hard core pro. PvP in fact occupies a small portion of my time, I do many other things - like train people, help newbies, review their builds, do testing, doff-ing - a lot other things and yes, PvE too. When I PvP, I made a point of not taking part in premade teams unless my fleet is having a casual among ourselves. Being a lone wolf by nature, I enjoy my freedom and my builds reflect the self-reliance of that. Some members of your fleet, which I met in Arena and C&H are pretty damn awful on their own. It's as though they don't know how to fight outside of a premade team. Perhaps you need more 1 on 1 training as opposed to needing be babysit all the time?
Fascinating post, but as someone once told me, everyone has a role, sometimes sacrificing Heals for other stuff may actually help the team.
Not everyone can afford countless respec tokens and re roll toons just for the lolz to play in Kerrat or Pugs. In fact what you see in the queues may not be how they play in pre mades. Sometimes people just play in pugs to let their hair down and have some pew pew and less QQ
E.g Extending someone constantly means they don't need to worry much about shields and have increased resistance.
I seen a 5 team Tac cruisers do this once, a circle of extends, brutally effective against the unprepared and even may give premades a run for their money
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
All it takes is 1 second to kill a player, leaving bop players a free 4 seconds to smoke their victory cigar
With the amount of bleedthrough doffs (BO stacking) and criticals ...it is now possible to kill a player with 75% shield resistence no matter if you have TSS + TT + RSP or eptS all working together, since a specially equipped bop or romulan spiker can shoot through that tough shield exterior without blanching with ease.... granted it requires timing and precision for a bop spiker but then again it requires defending players an equal amount of ...say 10 shield buffs and heal buffs to defend a op spike dmg attack in a single second....
oh wait ...that's right it doesn't work anymore since bleedthrough is so bad..that those spikers will penetrate your heavily defended shields regardless..... take it from me, having over 10 defensive buffs readily when minimax used his spike on me....well it was a surprise when his attack ignored my shields and popped my 60k hull boat inside a second despite the fact i had rsp III + TSS II + TT II + and Rotate shield frequency with high auxiliary power active...much to my disgust
The point I'm trying to say, is that double taps are not the only problems with bop spikers....the main problem is that there is too MUCH shield penetrating weapons, especially combined with the combo of doff penetration abilities that will melt a 60k hull without even damaging the shields of that defending ship
I understand what actually transpired now. He didn't hit you with Elachi weapons, maybe yes, maybe not, that's irrelevant. Nor did his shots actually ignore your shields per say. I think you should have at least saved the combat log. If I guess correctly, since I wasn't there, Mini was in his Emoe / Romulan T'Varo when this happened. His Tactical stations would look roughly like this :
Commander Tact : HY I, HY II, BO III, APO III
Ensign Tact : BO I
In addition, he will have DEM I + Marion and likely 3 X purple BO Doffs
At the time of the ambush, he would have stacked the following : BO I, BO III, HY I, HY II
His Fore Weapons set up would be two DBB, likely Acc X 3 Mk XII purple and two Quantum Torpedo Mk XII purple
Prior to decloaking, he would have activated APO III, APA III, possibly Tactical Fleet and even pop a Weapons Battery so that a purple Maintenance Engineer can add 10% all damages including Torpedos, and active EPtW for an additional 10% damage on Energy weapons
Assuming no Crits, and that all his 4 Tactical Consoles are used for his Energy weapons, this is what his damage would look like roughly :
BO I : 25K
BO III : 34K
HY I : 22K
HY II : 28K
The first shot that hit you is in fact a BO I. With RSP and all the heal buff on, the only damage that it did was really just the bleedthrough : 25K X 10% = 2.5K assuming hull damage resistance is neutral for now. So far, the damage is quite manageable.
But when that first BO hit you, the 3 stacking purple BO doffs proc (at 66% of the time) such that all subsequent attacks against you caused an additional 35% bleedthrough. 35% + 10% = 45%
Adding the damage of BO III + HY I + HY II = 34 K + 22 K + 28 K = 84 K
84K X 45% = 37.8 K
37.8K + 2.5k > 40K
Mini likely have additional rear weapons firing forward that are not accounted for here. At 40K, it should be insufficient to kill your Cruiser however, that may not be the case if any of the BO or HY Torp went critical. Mini likely have something like 150% critical severity so even if just the BO III goes critical, it will increase the overall damage by 23K to 63K, enough to destroy your 62K hull cruiser within a blink of an eye and yes through RSP as though it's not there.
The good news is despite these BO Doffs being abused (what a surprise, eh?) and deviated completely from their intended purpose - which is to aid cruisers, the recent change to BO will also nip it. Know that the 5 sec delay will actually prevent BO III from hitting you during the 4 sec proc window and the HY Torps can no longer stack within the same timeframe.
Re do the calculation above, the only damage that will be scored during the 4 sec period is a single HY I or II. Assuming it's HY II, then 45% of 28 K = 12.6K of hull damage. Adding the bleedthrough from the first BO, the total hull damage will probably be somewhere between 15-17K. Even assuming every single shot crit in a worse case scenario, it will still only mean 37 ~45K of your hull but it's highly unlikely every single shot will crit. More realistically, you will lose between 15~30K in hull so at most, half of your hull. Once you survive the initial alpha, Mini will be toast & crunchy too.
That just about summarizes the state of the game at present really, pre and post BO nerf. Extreme resists and heals.
I still fail to see any example of extreme resists and heals despite several claims to the effect.
I've played against you yesterday, you were indeed hard to pop as it should be really, one Double tapper shouldn't be able to vape a decent build really, unless you have two in coordination.
Yet, until the fix hits holodeck, that remains as easy as cutting a cake with the current double tappers.
I still fail to see any example of extreme resists and heals despite several claims to the effect.
Yet, until the fix hits holodeck, that remains as easy as cutting a cake with the current double tappers.
Well with your 23 Second RSP +buffs it is very difficult to kill you unless under the right circumstances and that kill window is very small.
As I said if you have a good sci build a single double tapper should not be able to kill you, unless you are enaged with others and using up your buffs, occupied e.t.c
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
i always ran that on my defiant because of subnukes.
TT3 for alpha run best overall buff, be it a small one...
but if i remember correctly, its been a while since ive flown a cloaking ship... when you get nuked, only the powers that are currently on cooldown get the extended cooldown.
having 3 means you will have another shield distro at your fingetips sooner....
i always ran that on my defiant because of subnukes.
TT3 for alpha run best overall buff, be it a small one...
but if i remember correctly, its been a while since ive flown a cloaking ship... when you get nuked, only the powers that are currently on cooldown get the extended cooldown.
having 3 means you will have another shield distro at your fingetips sooner....
i think thats why i ran it...pretty sure anyways
have fun kill bad guys
-thrusters on full-
But wouldn't the CD debuff from an SNB ramp up the shared CD on the other TT?
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
But wouldn't the CD debuff from an SNB ramp up the shared CD on the other TT?
Yes, it would, 3 copies of the same power makes no sense. In the example of 3 TT, say one of the TT got subnuked 5 seconds into its life. The other two TT would have started their shared CD of 15 sec exactly 5 seconds ago - now their count down would have reach 10 sec. but the sunuke adds 70% of their regular 30 seconds to the CD, so it would be 10 sec + 21 sec > 31 sec of wait time before any of the 3 TT can be activated again. So the poster in question would have no TT for the entire duration of the Subnuke. It wouldn't have matter if he has 5 copies of TT, same result.
The logic error here stems from the confusion that a power that hasn't been used yet will not be directly affected by Subnuke, true except if it has a shared CD with something else, then it's considered as if it was used as well.
In any event, I believe TT is seriously over-rated, too many cookie cutter builds where people just copy each other without asking why.
Shared (and system) CDs are never affected by any cooldown-related effects, whether they be speedups (e.g. AtB + doff) or slowdowns (e.g. SNB, TIF). (Example of a shared cooldown: Pop one EPtS, the other copy gets put on 30s cooldown. Example of a system cooldown: Pop an EPtS, and EPtW/EPtE/EPtA get put on a 15s cooldown.)
In your 3xTT example, this is what might happen:
0s: TT1 is popped, goes on 30s ability CD. TT2, TT3 go on 15s shared CD.
15s: TT2 is popped, goes on 30s ability CD. TT1 has 15s left of ability CD. TT3 is put on 15s shared CD.
25 - 0.1s: TT1 has 5s left of ability CD, TT2 has 20s left of ability CD, and TT3 has 5s left of shared CD.
25s: SNB hits, slowing recharge rates by 50%.
25 + 0.1s: TT1 has 5s * 2 = 10s of ability CD, TT2 has 20s * 2 = 40s of ability CD, TT3 has 5s left of shared CD.
30s: TT3 comes off shared CD and can be used. TT1 has 5s left of ability CD; TT2 has 15s left of ability CD.
In the above example, the third TT allows the cycle to be continued uninterrupted.
In short, having multiple copies of abilities is often crucial for continued buff cycling when hit by SNBs (or TIF, etc.), because shared/system cooldowns aren't affected. (This is also why there's no way to use a buff more often than its shared cooldown, no matter what sort of fancy cooldown-reduction effects you stack.)
Shared (and system) CDs are never affected by any cooldown-related effects, whether they be speedups (e.g. AtB + doff) or slowdowns (e.g. SNB, TIF). (Example of a shared cooldown: Pop one EPtS, the other copy gets put on 30s cooldown. Example of a system cooldown: Pop an EPtS, and EPtW/EPtE/EPtA get put on a 15s cooldown.)
In your 3xTT example, this is what might happen:
0s: TT1 is popped, goes on 30s ability CD. TT2, TT3 go on 15s shared CD.
15s: TT2 is popped, goes on 30s ability CD. TT1 has 15s left of ability CD. TT3 is put on 15s shared CD.
25 - 0.1s: TT1 has 5s left of ability CD, TT2 has 20s left of ability CD, and TT3 has 5s left of shared CD.
25s: SNB hits, slowing recharge rates by 50%.
25 + 0.1s: TT1 has 5s * 2 = 10s of ability CD, TT2 has 20s * 2 = 40s of ability CD, TT3 has 5s left of shared CD.
30s: TT3 comes off shared CD and can be used. TT1 has 5s left of ability CD; TT2 has 15s left of ability CD.
In the above example, the third TT allows the cycle to be continued uninterrupted.
In short, having multiple copies of abilities is often crucial for continued buff cycling when hit by SNBs, because shared/system cooldowns aren't affected. (This is also why there's no way to use a buff more often than its shared cooldown, no matter what sort of fancy cooldown-reduction effects you stack.)
The -70% is calculated from the base CD timer, not how much time it has left. Shared CD can be subnuked, without a doubt. What you are saying is shared CD is immune to subnuke, never seen that before.
In your example, TT3 will not keep going with 5 sec left. 21 secs will be added to its timer.
1) The recharge rate debuff of SNB is tied to the Aux level of the person using it. Therefore, it'll vary. I picked 50% because it provided a nice round number to use for the following calculations. (EDIT: Tested it myself; 70% is what you'll get at 125 aux power, and I think 50% is the lowest it goes.)
2) Shared and system CDs are most definitely not affected by CD recharge debuff affects like SNB. Ask around in OPvP for a demonstration; if I'm online (which I am at the time of writing) I can show you myself.
1) The recharge rate debuff of SNB is tied to the Aux level of the person using it. Therefore, it'll vary. I picked 50% because it provided a nice round number to use for the following calculations. (EDIT: Tested it myself; 70% is what you'll get at 125 aux power, and I think 50% is the lowest it goes.)
2) Shared and system CDs are most definitely not affected by CD recharge debuff affects like SNB. Ask around in OPvP for a demonstration; if I'm online (which I am at the time of writing) I can show you myself.
The -70% is calculated from the base CD timer, not how much time it has left. Shared CD can be subnuked, without a doubt. What you are saying is shared CD is immune to subnuke, never seen that before.
In your example, TT3 will not keep going with 5 sec left. 21 secs will be added to its timer.
I just tested out with renim, and - surprise surprise - he's right. I popped an Emergency Power to Shields and a Tac Team - causing cooldowns on ST and my EPtS copy. When he subnuked me, there was no change to those two cooldowns - only TT and the first EPtS copy had their cooldowns increased.
An additional tidbit he gave was that both self-cooldown and shared-cooldown can exist, but STO only displays the longer one - like EPtS having been activated 35 seconds ago (10s self-cooldown remaining) and EPtE being activated (15s shared cooldown). So STO displays 15s cooldown on EPtS. However, you're hit with an SNB! In this case, SNB does not affect the shared cooldown, but it hits the self-cooldown, let's say by 170% (I know SNB doesn't work that way, but for the argument) - becoming 17s, which is what is now displayed!
I just tested out with renim, and - surprise surprise - he's right. I popped an Emergency Power to Shields and a Tac Team - causing cooldowns on ST and my EPtS copy. When he subnuked me, there was no change to those two cooldowns - only TT and the first EPtS copy had their cooldowns increased.
An additional tidbit he gave was that both self-cooldown and shared-cooldown can exist, but STO only displays the longer one - like EPtS having been activated 35 seconds ago (10s self-cooldown remaining) and EPtE being activated (15s shared cooldown). So STO displays 15s cooldown on EPtS. However, you're hit with an SNB! In this case, SNB does not affect the shared cooldown, but it hits the self-cooldown, let's say by 170% (I know SNB doesn't work that way, but for the argument) - becoming 17s, which is what is now displayed!
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Comments
Yeah, but that 1% was the worst part!
The vast majority of fleets, even the big one like mine, do close to zero PvP. I am the only one who does any PvP with any regularity. Then I can count on one hand the number of them that do the very occasional Arena, out of an active fleet of 300+ people.
More to the point, I am a casual gamer, not a hard core pro. PvP in fact occupies a small portion of my time, I do many other things - like train people, help newbies, review their builds, do testing, doff-ing - a lot other things and yes, PvE too. When I PvP, I made a point of not taking part in premade teams unless my fleet is having a casual among ourselves. Being a lone wolf by nature, I enjoy my freedom and my builds reflect the self-reliance of that.
Last but not least, teammates can't save your bacon when your opponents know they are doing. The fact is if your opponents are any good, you will not have the time or the ability to spare heals for your teammate who will die in just 2 seconds. Proof of that, this past weekend, I camped out in my Romulan fighting the premade HOBO who were lurking in Kerrat, hunting unsuspected Feds in group. HOBO, being a large premade fleet, is well organized to say the least. They do the exact things you described, watch out for each other and decloakers. I was hunting alone, it didn't stop me from killing several of their members who btw are all PvP forum regulars here, before getting away. I don't even use Double Tap and typically need at least 5-10 seconds to do the job. This shows what you said is good in theory but a skilled double tapper will need much less time than I do and can get away far easier. So if your opponents are TRIBBLE, sure, you can cross-heal all you want. But if your opponents are determined to out cheese you, which is extremely easy to do, I can think of at least 100 ways to out cheese a premade team in a pre-determined environment. Have everyone equipped with a 1 minute long Graviton Pulse, using it one at a time. Your entire team will spend the whole time getting stucked in it.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~Bluegeek
That's not entirely true. You will need the double tap to make it work however. The BO doff does nothing on the first BO. If it does proc, it's the subsequent attacks, not on the initial BO itself.
It should not be a surprise to you that this was considered when this thread was made : http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=834021
The 5 seconds delay wasn't some out of blue number I pulled out of thin air, it was precisely chosen so that the BO doff proc will wear off by the time the 2nd BO hits. With one set of Torpedo HY doing 45% of penetration at most subsequently, the spike will be much less than before. Unless you are using the Elachi weapon, I think you will notice that the BO doff proc will be much less useful without double tap given that Torpedo do not instant hit and can miss.
HOBOs are a very large fleet, with a very small number of players who do premade PvP, and I believe some of their best left a while back.
If you ask practically any PvPer who the best double-taper in the game is, they'll tell you it is MT, who is of course in Pandas. The implication that our testing is flawed because we don't go up against skilled enough vapers is rather laughable.
Ultimatum doesn't use GPG in PvP. No one in Pandas uses GPG. Every single one of us thinks that 50+s GPG is unreasonable and should be nerfed. The reason behind Ultimatum's thread in his signature is to draw the right kind of attention to the power that will result in it being severely dialed back -- the thought is that the devs are more likely to fix an out of line power if it can be demonstrated to break PvE and STFs in particular. If you had actually read through his thread you would have noticed this quote:
Not wanting to get into fleet politics since it's off topic and the mods are especially edgy when anyone talks about specific fleets too much - let's just say the ones this past weekend are very good. Like I said, most of them are regular posters here in the PvP forum but I will not name them though I have no doubt you will recognize them immediately. They are definitely not 2nd class PvPers, that much I can say.
You read too much into my statement. I also think you are stretching the truth a little here, not going to say anymore beyond that because I want to stay on topic.
That just about summarizes the state of the game at present really, pre and post BO nerf. Extreme resists and heals.
I've played against you yesterday, you were indeed hard to pop as it should be really, one Double tapper shouldn't be able to vape a decent build really, unless you have two in coordination.
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Meh, I had a destablised torp deal 76 k to me lol
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Heh, mixed consoles from dorking around with things and just goofing around in general.
I posted this in a thread discussing DRR debuff stacking...
I try picturing that amount of debuff stacking, with a Tac doing the APA3/APO3/Rom Ambush...having all the BOFFs, better consoles, etc, etc, etc...
Yeah, I think there's more things that Cryptic needs to look at...but they won't because they're PvE things. Only if they're massively borking the 15 Minute Golden Rule will things get looked at there...
Ouch that is a high number, having said that I did 176k on ISS Stedl once in Mirror invasion with a single BO... Couldn't believe how squishy it was considering I am a n00b
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Fascinating post, but as someone once told me, everyone has a role, sometimes sacrificing Heals for other stuff may actually help the team.
Not everyone can afford countless respec tokens and re roll toons just for the lolz to play in Kerrat or Pugs. In fact what you see in the queues may not be how they play in pre mades. Sometimes people just play in pugs to let their hair down and have some pew pew and less QQ
E.g Extending someone constantly means they don't need to worry much about shields and have increased resistance.
I seen a 5 team Tac cruisers do this once, a circle of extends, brutally effective against the unprepared and even may give premades a run for their money
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Will this mean I cant buff my javelin with beam overload?
If so then NOOOOOO!!!! .
If not then disregard the NOOOOOO!!!! .
I understand what actually transpired now. He didn't hit you with Elachi weapons, maybe yes, maybe not, that's irrelevant. Nor did his shots actually ignore your shields per say. I think you should have at least saved the combat log. If I guess correctly, since I wasn't there, Mini was in his Emoe / Romulan T'Varo when this happened. His Tactical stations would look roughly like this :
Commander Tact : HY I, HY II, BO III, APO III
Ensign Tact : BO I
In addition, he will have DEM I + Marion and likely 3 X purple BO Doffs
At the time of the ambush, he would have stacked the following : BO I, BO III, HY I, HY II
His Fore Weapons set up would be two DBB, likely Acc X 3 Mk XII purple and two Quantum Torpedo Mk XII purple
Prior to decloaking, he would have activated APO III, APA III, possibly Tactical Fleet and even pop a Weapons Battery so that a purple Maintenance Engineer can add 10% all damages including Torpedos, and active EPtW for an additional 10% damage on Energy weapons
Assuming no Crits, and that all his 4 Tactical Consoles are used for his Energy weapons, this is what his damage would look like roughly :
BO I : 25K
BO III : 34K
HY I : 22K
HY II : 28K
The first shot that hit you is in fact a BO I. With RSP and all the heal buff on, the only damage that it did was really just the bleedthrough : 25K X 10% = 2.5K assuming hull damage resistance is neutral for now. So far, the damage is quite manageable.
But when that first BO hit you, the 3 stacking purple BO doffs proc (at 66% of the time) such that all subsequent attacks against you caused an additional 35% bleedthrough. 35% + 10% = 45%
Adding the damage of BO III + HY I + HY II = 34 K + 22 K + 28 K = 84 K
84K X 45% = 37.8 K
37.8K + 2.5k > 40K
Mini likely have additional rear weapons firing forward that are not accounted for here. At 40K, it should be insufficient to kill your Cruiser however, that may not be the case if any of the BO or HY Torp went critical. Mini likely have something like 150% critical severity so even if just the BO III goes critical, it will increase the overall damage by 23K to 63K, enough to destroy your 62K hull cruiser within a blink of an eye and yes through RSP as though it's not there.
The good news is despite these BO Doffs being abused (what a surprise, eh?) and deviated completely from their intended purpose - which is to aid cruisers, the recent change to BO will also nip it. Know that the 5 sec delay will actually prevent BO III from hitting you during the 4 sec proc window and the HY Torps can no longer stack within the same timeframe.
Re do the calculation above, the only damage that will be scored during the 4 sec period is a single HY I or II. Assuming it's HY II, then 45% of 28 K = 12.6K of hull damage. Adding the bleedthrough from the first BO, the total hull damage will probably be somewhere between 15-17K. Even assuming every single shot crit in a worse case scenario, it will still only mean 37 ~45K of your hull but it's highly unlikely every single shot will crit. More realistically, you will lose between 15~30K in hull so at most, half of your hull. Once you survive the initial alpha, Mini will be toast & crunchy too.
I still fail to see any example of extreme resists and heals despite several claims to the effect.
Yet, until the fix hits holodeck, that remains as easy as cutting a cake with the current double tappers.
Well with your 23 Second RSP +buffs it is very difficult to kill you unless under the right circumstances and that kill window is very small.
As I said if you have a good sci build a single double tapper should not be able to kill you, unless you are enaged with others and using up your buffs, occupied e.t.c
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Recommendation:
When that patch eventually goes live on Tribble, head over there and test it, make 100% sure whether it does or doesn't, then go from there.
I run a Defiant Retrofit and I was thinking of setting up my defiant as this:
TT1- BO2-RF2-APO3
TT1-HYT2-TT3
TSS1
(3 AP doffs)
(2x Rapid doffs)
Nice and efficient build kkthx.
R.I.P
i always ran that on my defiant because of subnukes.
TT3 for alpha run best overall buff, be it a small one...
but if i remember correctly, its been a while since ive flown a cloaking ship... when you get nuked, only the powers that are currently on cooldown get the extended cooldown.
having 3 means you will have another shield distro at your fingetips sooner....
i think thats why i ran it...pretty sure anyways
have fun kill bad guys
-thrusters on full-
But wouldn't the CD debuff from an SNB ramp up the shared CD on the other TT?
Yes, it would, 3 copies of the same power makes no sense. In the example of 3 TT, say one of the TT got subnuked 5 seconds into its life. The other two TT would have started their shared CD of 15 sec exactly 5 seconds ago - now their count down would have reach 10 sec. but the sunuke adds 70% of their regular 30 seconds to the CD, so it would be 10 sec + 21 sec > 31 sec of wait time before any of the 3 TT can be activated again. So the poster in question would have no TT for the entire duration of the Subnuke. It wouldn't have matter if he has 5 copies of TT, same result.
The logic error here stems from the confusion that a power that hasn't been used yet will not be directly affected by Subnuke, true except if it has a shared CD with something else, then it's considered as if it was used as well.
In any event, I believe TT is seriously over-rated, too many cookie cutter builds where people just copy each other without asking why.
Shared (and system) CDs are never affected by any cooldown-related effects, whether they be speedups (e.g. AtB + doff) or slowdowns (e.g. SNB, TIF). (Example of a shared cooldown: Pop one EPtS, the other copy gets put on 30s cooldown. Example of a system cooldown: Pop an EPtS, and EPtW/EPtE/EPtA get put on a 15s cooldown.)
In your 3xTT example, this is what might happen:
0s: TT1 is popped, goes on 30s ability CD. TT2, TT3 go on 15s shared CD.
15s: TT2 is popped, goes on 30s ability CD. TT1 has 15s left of ability CD. TT3 is put on 15s shared CD.
25 - 0.1s: TT1 has 5s left of ability CD, TT2 has 20s left of ability CD, and TT3 has 5s left of shared CD.
25s: SNB hits, slowing recharge rates by 50%.
25 + 0.1s: TT1 has 5s * 2 = 10s of ability CD, TT2 has 20s * 2 = 40s of ability CD, TT3 has 5s left of shared CD.
30s: TT3 comes off shared CD and can be used. TT1 has 5s left of ability CD; TT2 has 15s left of ability CD.
In the above example, the third TT allows the cycle to be continued uninterrupted.
In short, having multiple copies of abilities is often crucial for continued buff cycling when hit by SNBs (or TIF, etc.), because shared/system cooldowns aren't affected. (This is also why there's no way to use a buff more often than its shared cooldown, no matter what sort of fancy cooldown-reduction effects you stack.)
You erred in two areas I believe. First of all, the Subnuke III actually causes a -70% recharge timer, not 50%, see here : http://sto.gamepedia.com/Ability:_Subnucleonic_Beam
The -70% is calculated from the base CD timer, not how much time it has left. Shared CD can be subnuked, without a doubt. What you are saying is shared CD is immune to subnuke, never seen that before.
In your example, TT3 will not keep going with 5 sec left. 21 secs will be added to its timer.
2) Shared and system CDs are most definitely not affected by CD recharge debuff affects like SNB. Ask around in OPvP for a demonstration; if I'm online (which I am at the time of writing) I can show you myself.
I just tested out with renim, and - surprise surprise - he's right. I popped an Emergency Power to Shields and a Tac Team - causing cooldowns on ST and my EPtS copy. When he subnuked me, there was no change to those two cooldowns - only TT and the first EPtS copy had their cooldowns increased.
An additional tidbit he gave was that both self-cooldown and shared-cooldown can exist, but STO only displays the longer one - like EPtS having been activated 35 seconds ago (10s self-cooldown remaining) and EPtE being activated (15s shared cooldown). So STO displays 15s cooldown on EPtS. However, you're hit with an SNB! In this case, SNB does not affect the shared cooldown, but it hits the self-cooldown, let's say by 170% (I know SNB doesn't work that way, but for the argument) - becoming 17s, which is what is now displayed!
Man, I love learning something new.
SNB is aux based so ....
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Anywho, a bit off-topic with all that, but still good to know.