As has been mentioned in several threads (there are several threads discussing it), there are changes that can be made to do something about the 2x/3x BO that does not pound 1x BO into the ground. BO itself doesn't have to be obliterated because folks are running 2x/3x BO. And to be fair, the same issue arises with HY/TS...
The only reasonable way there is to fix BO stacking is (imo), instead of the 50 weapon power drain (this drain can be easily fixed with dem with marion, weapon battery, and all other stuff you all might know...) ... ... ... ah yes, instead of the 50 weapon power drain, what about disabling that beam array/dual beam bank who shot the overload for the duration of its firing cycle? (4secs). Oh yes, people can still stack BO, but its not the same :rolleyes:
And for torpedo abilities stacking... when firing the high yield or spread, activate a longer cooldown to other torpedos - like, double ? Meaning the user would have to wait 2 seconds after being able to shoot the other high yield / torpedo spread.
Thats only my opinion, dont rage comments on me please...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Achiever Killers often look to 1v1 duels for proof of their superior play and are frustrated by "rock paper scissor" game mechanics."
That's me !
As has been mentioned in several threads (there are several threads discussing it), there are changes that can be made to do something about the 2x/3x BO that does not pound 1x BO into the ground. BO itself doesn't have to be obliterated because folks are running 2x/3x BO. And to be fair, the same issue arises with HY/TS...
This.
It is not a BO issue, it is BOFF tac ability issue. If you nerf the nutz off it, we will be discussing how much we don't like the HY/TS and how that game mechanic is too much burst for one throw.
It is better to focus on leveling through CD timers and global timers across the board than to do something silly like shutting down a DBB or robbing -1000 or some other silly idea I have read in this post. This way you can sort the beams, torps, mines, and cannons all at once.
That halfstep sandbagging approach really doesn't pay off in the long run.
And to be fair, the same issue arises with HY/TS...
Not so sure about that. You can survive those by having some shields up, and you can get those shields there by manual re-distro. THY and TS aren't the be-all end-all killyouinonepasscuzIdon'tlikeyouandIhazDBBslulz that BO double tap has become.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
As has been mentioned in several threads (there are several threads discussing it), there are changes that can be made to do something about the 2x/3x BO that does not pound 1x BO into the ground. BO itself doesn't have to be obliterated because folks are running 2x/3x BO. And to be fair, the same issue arises with HY/TS...
To be really fair, no one seemed to notice double tap BOs, complain about them or even mention in the first 6 or 7 months of this year.
I was running that, as were many other players and guys in my fleet, to cut through the ridiculous level of heals and mitigation everyone is packing - it took a different kind of coordinated timing, subnucs, avoiding getting your APA stripped off by opposing SCIs.
It's only now, that the warbird builds are out in force - taking people off guard and adding more +Crt and more raw +damage (more than GDF ever did on an alpha) that suddenly everyone has something to latch onto and scream about.
Unfortunately the root causes of the real problems, all get lost in the conversation and all people want to talk about is one particular mechanic that has been in the game for years.
I wonder if any of them would be willing to give up all of the coddling they've gotten through layer after layer of added mitigation.
Not so sure about that. You can survive those by having some shields up, and you can get those shields there by manual re-distro. THY and TS aren't the be-all end-all killyouinonepasscuzIdon'tlikeyouandIhazDBBslulz that BO double tap has become.
APA3, APO3, TS3/TS2/TS3, Rom Ambush...w/ VR Mk XII Trannies [CrtD]x3 & a Breen Cluster. Since they're Torp Spreads, they're bugged and have 100% to-hit. Since folks can push 20-30% CrtH, you can go CrtD pretty safely.
Heck, take a Fleet T'varo sporting 4x VR Mk XII Trans consoles, the 2pc T'varo set (the +10% is ability-like rather than gear-like), 2pc KHG/AMACO Mk XII, go with a Reman Captain for Infiltrator so you can take 5x Rom BOFFs for the higher crit and length of ambush vs. 4x Rom/1x Rem...run 125 Aux for the +25 Weapon/Projectile from the T4 Nukara for some additional...
...hrmm, here - this:
154 Weapon Training, 124 Projectile Training, VR Mk XII Transphasic Torp, 4x VR Mk XII Trans Consoles, 2pc KHG/AMACO Mk XII...
4926.0 damage per torp so far.
TS3 drops out 4 torps with each doing ~43.75% damage for a total of ~175% damage.
TS2 drops out 3 torps with each doing ~51.7% damage for a total of ~155% damage.
So our TS3 does 4x ~2155.1 damage.
And our TS2 does 3x ~2546.7 damage.
Let's move into buffing that damage.
w/ APA3 (+50% of 2155.1/2546.7)
So our TS3 does 4x ~3232.7 damage.
And our TS2 does 3x ~3820.0 damage.
& w/ APO3 (+25% 2155.1/2546.7)
So our TS3 does 4x ~3771.4 damage.
And our TS2 does 3x ~4456.7 damage.
& w/ Rom Ambush (+25% 2155.1/2546.7)
So our TS3 does 4x ~4310.2 damage.
And our TS2 does 3x ~5093.4 damage.
& w/ 2pc T'varo (+10% 2155.1/2546.7)
So our TS3 does 4x ~4525.7 damage.
And our TS2 does 3x ~5348.0 damage.
Summarizing it so far then...
TS3 will do ~18102.8 damage.
TS2 will do ~16044.2 damage.
Let's take a look at the CrtH/CrtD. Say we decided that we didn't care about the duration of the Ambush, figuring we're going for that really fast spike. So we're going Rom Captain w/5x Sub/Sup Op.
That's +11.5% CrtH & +28.8% CrtD. Add in our base, that takes us to +14% CrtH & +78.8% CrtD. Add in APA3's normal, and we're at +19% CrtH & +128.8% CrtD. Add in the 9 in Projectile Specialization to take us to +21% CrtH & +153.8% CrtD.
What consoles might we sport? Borg, Tachyo, 0Point, and Bioneural?
Yes, a person can look at their hull health - their kinetic resistance...and see where that will leave them.
Don't forget, mind you...a Breen Cluster was dropped as well.
With the CD issue being fixed for the Beach Ball - that could even be dropped out as well and not TRIBBLE up the timings...providing it's damage and damage debuff.
But uh, yeah - folks shouldn't underestimate the pain one can bring with Torps.
Any steps taken to address 2x/3x BO...should consider (imho) what can be done with Torps.
Heck, in a team situation where the target has potentially been Nuked and is eating stacked Disruptor debuffs...yeah, that TSmania...poof.
Unfortunately the root causes of the real problems, all get lost in the conversation and all people want to talk about is one particular mechanic that has been in the game for years.
Hopefully Cryptic takes note of that...and...there's no Tric Nerf Situation (where they were nerfed, the issue was addressed, and the minimal compensatory buff they were given was nowhere near the original nerf)...meh.
APA3, APO3, TS3/TS2/TS3, Rom Ambush...w/ VR Mk XII Trannies [CrtD]x3 & a Breen Cluster. Since they're Torp Spreads, they're bugged and have 100% to-hit. Since folks can push 20-30% CrtH, you can go CrtD pretty safely.
Heck, take a Fleet T'varo sporting 4x VR Mk XII Trans consoles, the 2pc T'varo set (the +10% is ability-like rather than gear-like), 2pc KHG/AMACO Mk XII, go with a Reman Captain for Infiltrator so you can take 5x Rom BOFFs for the higher crit and length of ambush vs. 4x Rom/1x Rem...run 125 Aux for the +25 Weapon/Projectile from the T4 Nukara for some additional...
...hrmm, here - this:
154 Weapon Training, 124 Projectile Training, VR Mk XII Transphasic Torp, 4x VR Mk XII Trans Consoles, 2pc KHG/AMACO Mk XII...
4926.0 damage per torp so far.
TS3 drops out 4 torps with each doing ~43.75% damage for a total of ~175% damage.
TS2 drops out 3 torps with each doing ~51.7% damage for a total of ~155% damage.
So our TS3 does 4x ~2155.1 damage.
And our TS2 does 3x ~2546.7 damage.
Let's move into buffing that damage.
w/ APA3 (+50% of 2155.1/2546.7)
So our TS3 does 4x ~3232.7 damage.
And our TS2 does 3x ~3820.0 damage.
& w/ APO3 (+25% 2155.1/2546.7)
So our TS3 does 4x ~3771.4 damage.
And our TS2 does 3x ~4456.7 damage.
& w/ Rom Ambush (+25% 2155.1/2546.7)
So our TS3 does 4x ~4310.2 damage.
And our TS2 does 3x ~5093.4 damage.
& w/ 2pc T'varo (+10% 2155.1/2546.7)
So our TS3 does 4x ~4525.7 damage.
And our TS2 does 3x ~5348.0 damage.
Summarizing it so far then...
TS3 will do ~18102.8 damage.
TS2 will do ~16044.2 damage.
Let's take a look at the CrtH/CrtD. Say we decided that we didn't care about the duration of the Ambush, figuring we're going for that really fast spike. So we're going Rom Captain w/5x Sub/Sup Op.
That's +11.5% CrtH & +28.8% CrtD. Add in our base, that takes us to +14% CrtH & +78.8% CrtD. Add in APA3's normal, and we're at +19% CrtH & +128.8% CrtD. Add in the 9 in Projectile Specialization to take us to +21% CrtH & +153.8% CrtD.
What consoles might we sport? Borg, Tachyo, 0Point, and Bioneural?
Yes, a person can look at their hull health - their kinetic resistance...and see where that will leave them.
Don't forget, mind you...a Breen Cluster was dropped as well.
With the CD issue being fixed for the Beach Ball - that could even be dropped out as well and not TRIBBLE up the timings...providing it's damage and damage debuff.
But uh, yeah - folks shouldn't underestimate the pain one can bring with Torps.
Any steps taken to address 2x/3x BO...should consider (imho) what can be done with Torps.
Heck, in a team situation where the target has potentially been Nuked and is eating stacked Disruptor debuffs...yeah, that TSmania...poof.
That is a nasty build and I have seen some fleets use that in pugs, very effective, especially with two doing it and holding with webmines/cloak mines. Has it's obvious weakness but for pure bleed through damage it's pretty solid. Require alot of timing just like a double tap other wise your just ticklilng them .
For my play style I prefer insta vape
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
The only reasonable way there is to fix BO stacking is (imo), instead of the 50 weapon power drain (this drain can be easily fixed with dem with marion, weapon battery, and all other stuff you all might know...) ... ... ... ah yes, instead of the 50 weapon power drain, what about disabling that beam array/dual beam bank who shot the overload for the duration of its firing cycle? (4secs). Oh yes, people can still stack BO, but its not the same :rolleyes:
And for torpedo abilities stacking... when firing the high yield or spread, activate a longer cooldown to other torpedos - like, double ? Meaning the user would have to wait 2 seconds after being able to shoot the other high yield / torpedo spread.
Thats only my opinion, dont rage comments on me please...
i agree with this, this system favors builds taht truly specialize with multiple beams. too easy to double tap with one beam, this fix* id agree with (would have no effect on people with 2 beams)
The only reasonable way there is to fix BO stacking is (imo), instead of the 50 weapon power drain (this drain can be easily fixed with dem with marion, weapon battery, and all other stuff you all might know...) ... ... ... ah yes, instead of the 50 weapon power drain, what about disabling that beam array/dual beam bank who shot the overload for the duration of its firing cycle? (4secs). Oh yes, people can still stack BO, but its not the same :rolleyes:
And for torpedo abilities stacking... when firing the high yield or spread, activate a longer cooldown to other torpedos - like, double ? Meaning the user would have to wait 2 seconds after being able to shoot the other high yield / torpedo spread.
Thats only my opinion, dont rage comments on me please...
I think we have here the solution for BO, THY and TS stacking.
The only reasonable way there is to fix BO stacking is (imo), instead of the 50 weapon power drain (this drain can be easily fixed with dem with marion, weapon battery, and all other stuff you all might know...) ... ... ... ah yes, instead of the 50 weapon power drain, what about disabling that beam array/dual beam bank who shot the overload for the duration of its firing cycle? (4secs). Oh yes, people can still stack BO, but its not the same :rolleyes:
And for torpedo abilities stacking... when firing the high yield or spread, activate a longer cooldown to other torpedos - like, double ? Meaning the user would have to wait 2 seconds after being able to shoot the other high yield / torpedo spread.
Thats only my opinion, dont rage comments on me please...
I admit I haven't been following every post in this thread... but when did torps get dragged into this one. Nothing wrong with torpedo stacking if someone is really loading more then one torp and sitting them both out for 30s to double fire a stacked HY let them... we don't need to gimp torps.
On the overload... yes the -50 is dumb and no longer a good mechanic. At one time it took some skill to offset that's of course no longer the case. Easy fix is not to offline the beam for 4s but energy weapons completely for 2-4s. That fixes the stacking... and causes an actual downside to popping off overloads.
I admit I haven't been following every post in this thread... but when did torps get dragged into this one. Nothing wrong with torpedo stacking if someone is really loading more then one torp and sitting them both out for 30s to double fire a stacked HY let them... we don't need to gimp torps.
On the overload... yes the -50 is dumb and no longer a good mechanic. At one time it took some skill to offset that's of course no longer the case. Easy fix is not to offline the beam for 4s but energy weapons completely for 2-4s. That fixes the stacking... and causes an actual downside to popping off overloads.
Hmm... disabling the entire weapons subsystem ? Hmm... Considering the BO can miss... IF BO disabled the entire weapons subsystem, the old BO->THY/TS will go away... No, in order to fix BO, yet being a competitive skill when compared to other beam abilities, I think disabling only the beam who shot the overload is more, balanced... :cool:
And as for torpedo abilities stacking... yeah, I now agree with ya,its better to leave them ;D what would be made of transphasic torpedo boat builds with higher shared torpedo cooldown when firing HY/TSS ... ?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Achiever Killers often look to 1v1 duels for proof of their superior play and are frustrated by "rock paper scissor" game mechanics."
That's me !
The only reason double-BO "works" for the general case is because of Marion. Its not a problem when Engi uses NI to do it because they arent stacking APA/FOMM/TF on top of it. Tacs stacking all that TRIBBLE on top of 2x BO is the problem. Marion lets them do it. Marion is the problem.
I admit I haven't been following every post in this thread... but when did torps get dragged into this one. Nothing wrong with torpedo stacking if someone is really loading more then one torp and sitting them both out for 30s to double fire a stacked HY let them... we don't need to gimp torps.
I think virus brought it up, but rather than the goal of nerfing torpedoes specifically I think he brought it up for consistency with regards to how some powers do, or do not (or perhaps, should or should not) stack.
The last thing torps need are a nerf, but he has a point on the consistency of mechanics.
On the overload... yes the -50 is dumb and no longer a good mechanic. At one time it took some skill to offset that's of course no longer the case. Easy fix is not to offline the beam for 4s but energy weapons completely for 2-4s. That fixes the stacking... and causes an actual downside to popping off overloads.
Well, here I disagree.
The DEM doff was most likely instituted to add functionality to a power that was heavily underused and generally derided - DEM.
The only realistic applications of the DOFF + DEM are to boost BO & BFAW (as cannons gain very little from a reduction in power drain resistance, relatively speaking)
People weren't really running BOs either, how long were 4xDHCs the load of choice of escorts?
So we had DEM step in, improve BO allowing for variation and one that required engineering heavy loads in order to really make it work.
What did this do? Something that hasn't completely made it's way through all of the concrete skulls of this game's playerbase.
Indirectly nerf standard escort loads, and ultimately the JHAS.
JHAS, is no longer "the best ship" for Tacs, even though some still cling to the idea - most Pandas moved on from the JHAS in their top builds as far back as Feb/March.
Some things were direct changes, others were indirect.
Regardless BO is not BO+DEM+DOFF.
BO+DEM+DOFF is its own thing, and is not BO, so nerfing the pants off of BO to turn off all weapons is not really helping or solving anything.
If something needs to be changed, it really shouldn't be BO itself which is the root power that no one was really using in arena matches.
"Easy" to mitigate is a bit of a misnomer, it's "easier" for some ships and not so easy for many others.
The ships that mitigate this the best, are the hybrid destroyers and battle cruisers - not standard escorts. Intentional or not, Warbirds are all designed as hybrids, many of them Engineering heavy.
Marion isn't the problem... its only one of multiple ways to achieve the same result.
Honestly I have had double tapping builds going back a couple years... mini max ran it nixtux and a handful of other bop players. Of course now you can double tap in ships that don't go boom 2 seconds later... so 1000 other dudes are doing the same.
If we scream its Marion and they fix marion... it won't solve the problem just push the meta somewhere else... so instead of marion you have tacs loading bat doffs and Weapon + Weapon & X battaries and doing the exact same thing we have been doing for a few years now in bops. Or... they start putting a full 9 points in electro with a EPS or 2... lets be honest that -50 power isn't enough anymore... one eps console and electro flow and you have 90% of the power back anyway.
The issue is allowing overload to stack... the First set of STO devs understood it would be a problem and had the Weapon offline mechanic. Now it was buggy and never worked right, that was the main reason it was removed.... it wasn't a balance decision it was just easier to remove it then try to fix it.
We all know taking the weapon that overloaded offline won't really fix it anymore... cause no one sees pressure dmg as anything worthwhile so they just load 2 beams... both beams need to go offline... perhaps 4s is to long... 2-3s might work just as well and be less of a major down side.
One more new option to think about.... Polaron procs reduce the max amount of power you can have... what if they just changed the overload down side to that... change the -50 power... to -50 off your max weapon power setting for 4s.... this would mean you could fire a second overload but at -50 power for 2-4s no matter what doff you had running or how many weapon bats you eat.
If we scream its Marion and they fix marion... it won't solve the problem just push the meta somewhere else... so instead of marion you have tacs loading bat doffs and Weapon + Weapon & X battaries and doing the exact same thing we have been doing for a few years now in bops. Or... they start putting a full 9 points in electro with a EPS or 2... lets be honest that -50 power isn't enough anymore... one eps console and electro flow and you have 90% of the power back anyway.
One more new option to think about.... Polaron procs reduce the max amount of power you can have... what if they just changed the overload down side to that... change the -50 power... to -50 off your max weapon power setting for 4s.... this would mean you could fire a second overload but at -50 power fo no matter what doff you had running or how many weapon bats you eat.
A new post cause the more I think about it this is likely the best fix I can think of.
It was mentioned as well that people want mechanics to be the same on things.... this would make the overload power draw more like regular weapon draw... locking out 50 power while the overload "cycled" just like a weapon locks up the power it uses.
One more new option to think about.... Polaron procs reduce the max amount of power you can have... what if they just changed the overload down side to that... change the -50 power... to -50 off your max weapon power setting for 4s.... this would mean you could fire a second overload but at -50 power for 2-4s no matter what doff you had running or how many weapon bats you eat.
Its too many drawbacks for a boff ability, please no. If that would be true, BO would make your damage in that 2-4secs window even smaller than it would without the skill.
The skill needs a nerf, not a "gtfo" push :P
Disabling only the beam who overloaded is a better way to fix it.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Achiever Killers often look to 1v1 duels for proof of their superior play and are frustrated by "rock paper scissor" game mechanics."
That's me !
Honestly I have had double tapping builds going back a couple years... mini max ran it nixtux and a handful of other bop players. Of course now you can double tap in ships that don't go boom 2 seconds later... so 1000 other dudes are doing the same.
If we scream its Marion and they fix marion... it won't solve the problem just push the meta somewhere else... so instead of marion you have tacs loading bat doffs and Weapon + Weapon & X battaries and doing the exact same thing we have been doing for a few years now in bops. Or... they start putting a full 9 points in electro with a EPS or 2... lets be honest that -50 power isn't enough anymore... one eps console and electro flow and you have 90% of the power back anyway.
I'm not screaming marion, I promise you.
But your suggestion of -50 weapons power regardless of DOFF, basically nerfs Marion for anyone who isn't a PvE DPS BFAW build.
The issue is allowing overload to stack... the First set of STO devs understood it would be a problem and had the Weapon offline mechanic. Now it was buggy and never worked right, that was the main reason it was removed.... it wasn't a balance decision it was just easier to remove it then try to fix it.
Weapon/weapons offline might be workable, or just a simple cooldown.
It certainly doesn't need to turn all weapons off, that would be unnecessarily penalizing.
I'm also not a fan of nerfing the tactic completely, when I do this on my non-cloaking destroyers & hybrids, the success rate isn't nearly as pronounced.
I can't guarantee I will even have my buffs (SNB) or that I won't be controlled (VM, EWP) when getting ready for this.
So double stacking it hasn't been something people were up in arms about, until Romulans - specifically because they can battlecloak on ships that are as durable as escorts, with built in "magic tricks" like photonic decoys and 5km escape teleports with -acc debuffs, started doing it enmasse.
My position on it is complicated, I'm ok if spike gets toned down if healing and resists get correspondingly toned down.
Otherwise, I'd hate to see yet another spike tool get nerfed because some people's egos get bruised when they get vaped, while we get to keep our ever expanding list of invincibility options.
I mean seriously, 18s+ RSP on 60s CD for 1/3rd uptime?
Its too many drawbacks for a boff ability, please no. If that would be true, BO would make your damage in that 2-4secs window even smaller than it would without the skill.
The skill needs a nerf, not a "gtfo" push :P
Disabling only the beam who overloaded is a better way to fix it.
Disabiling only the beam fixes nothing and we all know it. The beams already cycle for 4s so you CAN"T be double tapping only running one... so what does that change fix again ? exactly nothing at all. lol
To be frank and I think we all need to be honest here... overload has always been broken... yes it sucks in PvE no one runs it because it reduces overall dps in pve as it is.
In PvP it has ALWAYS been the OMG WTF just happened button that lands 90k crits... we all know it.
I don't want people to not be able to use it... but there needs to be a down side. I am not saying the game doesn't need spike... but being able to hit 20-60k overloads twice in a row is sort of bad design. I know I said I have been doing it a long time... of course back then the only way to really pull it off... was to either fly an escort that sat out 2 weapon slots for 30s at a time and killed Pressure dmg back when it mattered... or by being in a ship like a bop with shuttle hull and shields. Thanks to power creep and the removal of real pressure dmg from consideration... its more then a little OP. Frankly its not a hard tactic to pull off... the risk/reward is badly scewed. At least that is how I see it.
Disabiling only the beam fixes nothing and we all know it. The beams already cycle for 4s so you CAN"T be double tapping only running one... so what does that change fix again ? exactly nothing at all. lol
It fixes the easy BO stacking, and if you want to stack them, you would have to put another dual beam bank, alpha strike is gone. No more QQ about BO stacking. And oh yes, beam array overloads... Two beam array overloads is almost the same as a single BO of a DBB. So yes, it pretty much fixes this problem.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Achiever Killers often look to 1v1 duels for proof of their superior play and are frustrated by "rock paper scissor" game mechanics."
That's me !
It fixes the easy BO stacking, and if you want to stack them, you would have to put another dual beam bank, alpha strike is gone. No more QQ about BO stacking. And oh yes, beam array overloads... Two beam array overloads is almost the same as a single BO of a DBB. So yes, it pretty much fixes this problem.
Everyone double tapping now is already running 2 beams. (DBB that is not arrays)
Running one beam you have to wait for it to cycle before you can overload again... that is powerful but its not the.... 2s kill that 2 beams is.
I'm sorry but off lining one beam is not a fix... at all.
Running one beam you have to wait for it to cycle before you can overload again... that is powerful but its not the.... 2s kill that 2 beams is.
So far as I know, alpha builds use only one dual beam bank. If this *fix* would be implemented, they would have to use two dual beam banks to alpha someone - dmg will be lower but its still enough to kill - good point.
I've got another idea - When activating the beam overload skill (not shooting it, only activating it) disabling all other existing beam overload skills (making them grey, ahm... you know what I mean) - and only activating the shared cooldown on the other beam overload skill only when the overload is shot ? And of course, keep the old -50 weapon subsystem.
Fixes the problem and doesnt nerf the hell out of the skill back to stone age xD.
If something has escaped in this fix please say (I think not xD).
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Achiever Killers often look to 1v1 duels for proof of their superior play and are frustrated by "rock paper scissor" game mechanics."
That's me !
Comments
And for torpedo abilities stacking... when firing the high yield or spread, activate a longer cooldown to other torpedos - like, double ? Meaning the user would have to wait 2 seconds after being able to shoot the other high yield / torpedo spread.
Thats only my opinion, dont rage comments on me please...
That's me !
This.
It is not a BO issue, it is BOFF tac ability issue. If you nerf the nutz off it, we will be discussing how much we don't like the HY/TS and how that game mechanic is too much burst for one throw.
It is better to focus on leveling through CD timers and global timers across the board than to do something silly like shutting down a DBB or robbing -1000 or some other silly idea I have read in this post. This way you can sort the beams, torps, mines, and cannons all at once.
That halfstep sandbagging approach really doesn't pay off in the long run.
Just my $0.02.
Not so sure about that. You can survive those by having some shields up, and you can get those shields there by manual re-distro. THY and TS aren't the be-all end-all killyouinonepasscuzIdon'tlikeyouandIhazDBBslulz that BO double tap has become.
To be really fair, no one seemed to notice double tap BOs, complain about them or even mention in the first 6 or 7 months of this year.
I was running that, as were many other players and guys in my fleet, to cut through the ridiculous level of heals and mitigation everyone is packing - it took a different kind of coordinated timing, subnucs, avoiding getting your APA stripped off by opposing SCIs.
It's only now, that the warbird builds are out in force - taking people off guard and adding more +Crt and more raw +damage (more than GDF ever did on an alpha) that suddenly everyone has something to latch onto and scream about.
Unfortunately the root causes of the real problems, all get lost in the conversation and all people want to talk about is one particular mechanic that has been in the game for years.
I wonder if any of them would be willing to give up all of the coddling they've gotten through layer after layer of added mitigation.
APA3, APO3, TS3/TS2/TS3, Rom Ambush...w/ VR Mk XII Trannies [CrtD]x3 & a Breen Cluster. Since they're Torp Spreads, they're bugged and have 100% to-hit. Since folks can push 20-30% CrtH, you can go CrtD pretty safely.
Heck, take a Fleet T'varo sporting 4x VR Mk XII Trans consoles, the 2pc T'varo set (the +10% is ability-like rather than gear-like), 2pc KHG/AMACO Mk XII, go with a Reman Captain for Infiltrator so you can take 5x Rom BOFFs for the higher crit and length of ambush vs. 4x Rom/1x Rem...run 125 Aux for the +25 Weapon/Projectile from the T4 Nukara for some additional...
...hrmm, here - this:
154 Weapon Training, 124 Projectile Training, VR Mk XII Transphasic Torp, 4x VR Mk XII Trans Consoles, 2pc KHG/AMACO Mk XII...
4926.0 damage per torp so far.
TS3 drops out 4 torps with each doing ~43.75% damage for a total of ~175% damage.
TS2 drops out 3 torps with each doing ~51.7% damage for a total of ~155% damage.
So our TS3 does 4x ~2155.1 damage.
And our TS2 does 3x ~2546.7 damage.
Let's move into buffing that damage.
w/ APA3 (+50% of 2155.1/2546.7)
So our TS3 does 4x ~3232.7 damage.
And our TS2 does 3x ~3820.0 damage.
& w/ APO3 (+25% 2155.1/2546.7)
So our TS3 does 4x ~3771.4 damage.
And our TS2 does 3x ~4456.7 damage.
& w/ Rom Ambush (+25% 2155.1/2546.7)
So our TS3 does 4x ~4310.2 damage.
And our TS2 does 3x ~5093.4 damage.
& w/ 2pc T'varo (+10% 2155.1/2546.7)
So our TS3 does 4x ~4525.7 damage.
And our TS2 does 3x ~5348.0 damage.
Summarizing it so far then...
TS3 will do ~18102.8 damage.
TS2 will do ~16044.2 damage.
Let's take a look at the CrtH/CrtD. Say we decided that we didn't care about the duration of the Ambush, figuring we're going for that really fast spike. So we're going Rom Captain w/5x Sub/Sup Op.
That's +11.5% CrtH & +28.8% CrtD. Add in our base, that takes us to +14% CrtH & +78.8% CrtD. Add in APA3's normal, and we're at +19% CrtH & +128.8% CrtD. Add in the 9 in Projectile Specialization to take us to +21% CrtH & +153.8% CrtD.
What consoles might we sport? Borg, Tachyo, 0Point, and Bioneural?
CrtH: +0.92%, +0.76%, +1.8%, +0.0%
CrtD: +9.2%, +7.6%, +0.0%, +15.2%
Brings us to +24.48% CrtH & +185.8% CrtD.
Went with [CrtD]x3, taking us to +24.48% CrtH & +245.8% CrtD.
Say the stars align (not as bad a gamble at 24.48%), then our damage would be:
TS3 ~62599.6 damage.
TS2 ~55480.9 damage.
Okay then, but we still have to deal with what damage goes to shields and what damage goes to hull, right?
Trans have 43% bleedthrough vs. Resilient Shields. So let's modify that damage for that:
TS3 ~26917.8 damage.
TS2 ~23856.8 damage.
Oh, forgot...we're doing TS3/TS2 w/ another TS3 being dropped out so that all three are dropped in ~3s or less.
TS3 ~26917.8 damage.
TS2 ~23856.8 damage.
TS3 ~26917.8 damage.
77692.4 hull damage before resists.
Yes, a person can look at their hull health - their kinetic resistance...and see where that will leave them.
Don't forget, mind you...a Breen Cluster was dropped as well.
With the CD issue being fixed for the Beach Ball - that could even be dropped out as well and not TRIBBLE up the timings...providing it's damage and damage debuff.
But uh, yeah - folks shouldn't underestimate the pain one can bring with Torps.
Any steps taken to address 2x/3x BO...should consider (imho) what can be done with Torps.
Heck, in a team situation where the target has potentially been Nuked and is eating stacked Disruptor debuffs...yeah, that TSmania...poof.
Hopefully Cryptic takes note of that...and...there's no Tric Nerf Situation (where they were nerfed, the issue was addressed, and the minimal compensatory buff they were given was nowhere near the original nerf)...meh.
That is a nasty build and I have seen some fleets use that in pugs, very effective, especially with two doing it and holding with webmines/cloak mines. Has it's obvious weakness but for pure bleed through damage it's pretty solid. Require alot of timing just like a double tap other wise your just ticklilng them .
For my play style I prefer insta vape
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
That's the main draw back...so much of the time is spent - well, not doing anything or tickling. So much...tickling. It can be embarrassing, lol.
But i must say you can't run from TS, but you can from a double BO.
Bring on the Insta Torpage
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
i agree with this, this system favors builds taht truly specialize with multiple beams. too easy to double tap with one beam, this fix* id agree with (would have no effect on people with 2 beams)
I think we have here the solution for BO, THY and TS stacking.
I admit I haven't been following every post in this thread... but when did torps get dragged into this one.
On the overload... yes the -50 is dumb and no longer a good mechanic. At one time it took some skill to offset that's of course no longer the case. Easy fix is not to offline the beam for 4s but energy weapons completely for 2-4s. That fixes the stacking... and causes an actual downside to popping off overloads.
Hmm... disabling the entire weapons subsystem ? Hmm... Considering the BO can miss... IF BO disabled the entire weapons subsystem, the old BO->THY/TS will go away... No, in order to fix BO, yet being a competitive skill when compared to other beam abilities, I think disabling only the beam who shot the overload is more, balanced... :cool:
And as for torpedo abilities stacking... yeah, I now agree with ya,its better to leave them ;D what would be made of transphasic torpedo boat builds with higher shared torpedo cooldown when firing HY/TSS ... ?
That's me !
I think virus brought it up, but rather than the goal of nerfing torpedoes specifically I think he brought it up for consistency with regards to how some powers do, or do not (or perhaps, should or should not) stack.
The last thing torps need are a nerf, but he has a point on the consistency of mechanics.
Well, here I disagree.
The DEM doff was most likely instituted to add functionality to a power that was heavily underused and generally derided - DEM.
The only realistic applications of the DOFF + DEM are to boost BO & BFAW (as cannons gain very little from a reduction in power drain resistance, relatively speaking)
People weren't really running BOs either, how long were 4xDHCs the load of choice of escorts?
So we had DEM step in, improve BO allowing for variation and one that required engineering heavy loads in order to really make it work.
What did this do? Something that hasn't completely made it's way through all of the concrete skulls of this game's playerbase.
Indirectly nerf standard escort loads, and ultimately the JHAS.
JHAS, is no longer "the best ship" for Tacs, even though some still cling to the idea - most Pandas moved on from the JHAS in their top builds as far back as Feb/March.
Some things were direct changes, others were indirect.
Regardless BO is not BO+DEM+DOFF.
BO+DEM+DOFF is its own thing, and is not BO, so nerfing the pants off of BO to turn off all weapons is not really helping or solving anything.
If something needs to be changed, it really shouldn't be BO itself which is the root power that no one was really using in arena matches.
"Easy" to mitigate is a bit of a misnomer, it's "easier" for some ships and not so easy for many others.
The ships that mitigate this the best, are the hybrid destroyers and battle cruisers - not standard escorts. Intentional or not, Warbirds are all designed as hybrids, many of them Engineering heavy.
With battlecloaks.
With massive +crit % & +crtD.
With Ambush bonuses.
Thus, began the QQ.
Honestly I have had double tapping builds going back a couple years... mini max ran it nixtux and a handful of other bop players. Of course now you can double tap in ships that don't go boom 2 seconds later... so 1000 other dudes are doing the same.
If we scream its Marion and they fix marion... it won't solve the problem just push the meta somewhere else... so instead of marion you have tacs loading bat doffs and Weapon + Weapon & X battaries and doing the exact same thing we have been doing for a few years now in bops. Or... they start putting a full 9 points in electro with a EPS or 2... lets be honest that -50 power isn't enough anymore... one eps console and electro flow and you have 90% of the power back anyway.
The issue is allowing overload to stack... the First set of STO devs understood it would be a problem and had the Weapon offline mechanic. Now it was buggy and never worked right, that was the main reason it was removed.... it wasn't a balance decision it was just easier to remove it then try to fix it.
We all know taking the weapon that overloaded offline won't really fix it anymore... cause no one sees pressure dmg as anything worthwhile so they just load 2 beams... both beams need to go offline... perhaps 4s is to long... 2-3s might work just as well and be less of a major down side.
One more new option to think about.... Polaron procs reduce the max amount of power you can have... what if they just changed the overload down side to that... change the -50 power... to -50 off your max weapon power setting for 4s.... this would mean you could fire a second overload but at -50 power for 2-4s no matter what doff you had running or how many weapon bats you eat.
A new post cause the more I think about it this is likely the best fix I can think of.
It was mentioned as well that people want mechanics to be the same on things.... this would make the overload power draw more like regular weapon draw... locking out 50 power while the overload "cycled" just like a weapon locks up the power it uses.
Its too many drawbacks for a boff ability, please no. If that would be true, BO would make your damage in that 2-4secs window even smaller than it would without the skill.
The skill needs a nerf, not a "gtfo" push :P
Disabling only the beam who overloaded is a better way to fix it.
That's me !
There aren't many that are reliable like Marion, outside of Nadion.
No one cares about Nadion doing it, because its on a 180s CD and on Engineers.
Right, Romulans begat the QQ.
I'm not screaming marion, I promise you.
But your suggestion of -50 weapons power regardless of DOFF, basically nerfs Marion for anyone who isn't a PvE DPS BFAW build.
Weapon/weapons offline might be workable, or just a simple cooldown.
It certainly doesn't need to turn all weapons off, that would be unnecessarily penalizing.
I'm also not a fan of nerfing the tactic completely, when I do this on my non-cloaking destroyers & hybrids, the success rate isn't nearly as pronounced.
I can't guarantee I will even have my buffs (SNB) or that I won't be controlled (VM, EWP) when getting ready for this.
So double stacking it hasn't been something people were up in arms about, until Romulans - specifically because they can battlecloak on ships that are as durable as escorts, with built in "magic tricks" like photonic decoys and 5km escape teleports with -acc debuffs, started doing it enmasse.
My position on it is complicated, I'm ok if spike gets toned down if healing and resists get correspondingly toned down.
Otherwise, I'd hate to see yet another spike tool get nerfed because some people's egos get bruised when they get vaped, while we get to keep our ever expanding list of invincibility options.
I mean seriously, 18s+ RSP on 60s CD for 1/3rd uptime?
Disabiling only the beam fixes nothing and we all know it. The beams already cycle for 4s so you CAN"T be double tapping only running one... so what does that change fix again ? exactly nothing at all. lol
To be frank and I think we all need to be honest here... overload has always been broken... yes it sucks in PvE no one runs it because it reduces overall dps in pve as it is.
In PvP it has ALWAYS been the OMG WTF just happened button that lands 90k crits... we all know it.
I don't want people to not be able to use it... but there needs to be a down side. I am not saying the game doesn't need spike... but being able to hit 20-60k overloads twice in a row is sort of bad design. I know I said I have been doing it a long time... of course back then the only way to really pull it off... was to either fly an escort that sat out 2 weapon slots for 30s at a time and killed Pressure dmg back when it mattered... or by being in a ship like a bop with shuttle hull and shields.
It fixes the easy BO stacking, and if you want to stack them, you would have to put another dual beam bank, alpha strike is gone. No more QQ about BO stacking. And oh yes, beam array overloads... Two beam array overloads is almost the same as a single BO of a DBB. So yes, it pretty much fixes this problem.
That's me !
Everyone double tapping now is already running 2 beams.
Running one beam you have to wait for it to cycle before you can overload again... that is powerful but its not the.... 2s kill that 2 beams is.
I'm sorry but off lining one beam is not a fix... at all.
Actually, that's exactly how I run it (1 DBB) on my decloaker (and my non-decloaker).
Honestly, I think very few people understand the distinction between the two and what 1 vs. 2 DBBs allows.
Is there a significant distinction between the two from adjudicatorhawk's viewpoint?
It probably really needs its own thread to demystify it a bit.
So far as I know, alpha builds use only one dual beam bank. If this *fix* would be implemented, they would have to use two dual beam banks to alpha someone - dmg will be lower but its still enough to kill - good point.
I've got another idea - When activating the beam overload skill (not shooting it, only activating it) disabling all other existing beam overload skills (making them grey, ahm... you know what I mean) - and only activating the shared cooldown on the other beam overload skill only when the overload is shot ? And of course, keep the old -50 weapon subsystem.
Fixes the problem and doesnt nerf the hell out of the skill back to stone age xD.
If something has escaped in this fix please say (I think not xD).
That's me !
All run at least Tractor Beam 1, as far as I know.
For what I've seen, most good alpha strikers use photonic shockwave 1/3 and tractor beam 1.
That's me !