You all speak about the Miranda being outdated in STO. Well, though technically I agree that it is outdated, in STO it is in used in 2409 in Starfleet. You seem to all have forgetten that this is the ship you first fly. And it is in 2409. So yes, they are Miranda flying in starfleet, fighting the borg (arguably as cannon fodder).
The point is not whether the Miranda is being used in 2409, but whether it could actually be upgraded to be a match for the Sovereign, Vesta, Prometheus, and other Tier 5 ships.
I strongly believe that is a bad idea to make all ship the same power. So the point is that we should be able to fly a Miranda in fleet action or pvp without condemning the team to failure. The point of this thread, if you read the OP, is not to make the Miranda as strong as a sovereign. The point of wether the Miranda could or could not be upgraded is only one aspect of the problem and serveral, may be not you, seem to think that we should not fly the MIranda in 2409. I was answering to them.
So how so you suggest a way for the Miranda to flight in pvp and fleet action? I have and other have posted suggestions.
I strongly believe that is a bad idea to make all ship the same power. So the point is that we should be able to fly a Miranda in fleet action or pvp without condemning the team to failure. The point of this thread, if you read the OP, is not to make the Miranda as strong as a sovereign. The point of wether the Miranda could or could not be upgraded is only one aspect of the problem and serveral, may be not you, seem to think that we should not fly the MIranda in 2409. I was answering to them.
So how so you suggest a way for the Miranda to flight in pvp and fleet action? I have and other have posted suggestions.
There seems to be two arguments going on this thread, the classic Tier 5 Constitution/Miranda debate and the queues for T1 and T2 ships. It seems like any thread that deals with Miranda or Constitution brings out the fans of Tier 5 Constitution/Miranda and those who strongly oppose that idea. I was trying to clarify the Tier 5 Constitution/Miranda debate. The OP's suggestion has some merit. Even though some of us are against Tier 5 Constitutions/Mirandas, the Constitution/Miranda still has value in 2409. Namely as a ship to gain experience on for officers that just obtained the right to captain a ship.
Private Queues would be the best for PvP. Can set up TOS, TNG, etc PvP style matches where bringing in the wrong type of ship would get a warning. Fleet Actions would require some work. Maybe a private queue where certain constraints are put into place like a choice to bring only Tier 1 ships with the difficulty adjusted accordingly. A lot of this stuff can be done by the players themselves. Would be a real challenge for some players to run Crystalline Entity in Tier 1 ships especially if it is the Elite version. Think that should have a reward similar to NWS.
I think that BOFF and console slots shouldn't be ruled by tiers. However, I dont really think that more weapon slots should be given to lower tier ships.
So Im basically for BOFF/console slot normalization independent of tier while keeping everything else the same.
I don't want just use mine in STFs but averything and if they give away a T5 version of these ships CBs won't say anything.It is where moey is inveloved is where CBS will say something about it.
Make them like shuttles and buff them up where ever you are uisng them.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Age StarTrek-Gamers Administrator
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer Star Trek Gamers
We hit here the problem of most MMO : they are not made to mix high level and low level. But the reality is quite the opposite : you mix high level and low.
We need innovative thinking to have Miranda fight along Galaxy and Sovereign. That is the result we should aime at.
My main proposal is to move from player limit to point value limit. The scaling (when there is noe) will be made according to the point value of the team.
Historically if fleet where not fully made of Dreadnought there was a reason. In STO you seem to go for the all Dreadnought fleet that happen when no contengency limit what player can fly.
IMO, something I posted long, long, LONG ago, players should be able to upgrade the BOFF/ Console / Slot / values of their ship to the new rank / tier they get to. If the player so desires to switch to a different ship / hull, then so be it.
Example: Take that T1 Miranda / BOP from the beginning, and upgrade to a set of possible Cruiser / BOP stat packages for the new tier, while still keeping that same ship.
What this does:
Lets players keep the ship they've always wanted to use regardless of promotion.
Upgrade the "stats" and values to the new tier.
Cuts down on the increasing clutter of ships despite using the same model.
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Choosing a new "package" for your ship at a new rank / tier (every 10 levels, for example) should be free for the first change. Subsequent changes could cost C-Store points. Every major update could give 1 free "respec" for ship packages.
It would be a win-win. You retain playing of the ship you always wanted. Cryptic gets you to spend C-Store points for respeccing.
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In Star Trek, the famed captains retained command of their ships for the duration of the show, unless it was destroyed. Otherwise, Kirk & Picard would have continued being captains on their beloved ships. There was no mistaking Kirk & Picard called their respective ships "theirs" and were very passionate about that... and STO captains should be given the opportunity to call the ship theirs for their characters' careers.
Let that Starfleet captain make his career as a ship's captain on that beloved ship of his.
Due to Cryptic's habit of hardcoding things in a way that's coded purely for review, the chances are such a thing would take a complete overhaul of how ships are coded. I don't know that it is struct based, but I suspect it is, it seems to be the way Cryptic does things. They'd have to overhault the entire ship handling code to use classes with generics and inheritability instead of structs
The biggest reason I want to be able to fly an NX class ship is because I paid for it. (Granted I bought the bundle) I have consistently leveled up at least once a day, so paying $10-20 for a ship that is usable for one day is an issue.
Also as mentioned the dress code is horrible. Federation should only have one option of uniforms and command should be red, not tactical. But since this is already ignored an NX class ship isnt that rediculous.
The biggest reason I want to be able to fly an NX class ship is because I paid for it. (Granted I bought the bundle) I have consistently leveled up at least once a day, so paying $10-20 for a ship that is usable for one day is an issue.
Also as mentioned the dress code is horrible. Federation should only have one option of uniforms and command should be red, not tactical. But since this is already ignored an NX class ship isnt that rediculous.
Nothing stopping people from playing an NX besides the lack of firepower of a modified 22nd century ship design. The NX was upgraded with the modern technology and it ended up as just as a Tier 1 ship. It is not like the NX we pilot is from the 22nd Century. However, having a lax dress code is far less ridiculous than using a modified 22nd Century ship design. It is kind of like someone trying to bring back Victorian Dresses using modern fabrics. Majority can't understand why someone would like it, but there are some that would love it for some strange reason. Dress code is a simple procedural issue while utilizing ancient designs is a engineering issue which is far more complex.
Nothing stopping people from playing an NX besides the lack of firepower of a modified 22nd century ship design. The NX was upgraded with the modern technology and it ended up as just as a Tier 1 ship. It is not like the NX we pilot is from the 22nd Century. However, having a lax dress code is far less ridiculous than using a modified 22nd Century ship design. It is kind of like someone trying to bring back Victorian Dresses using modern fabrics. Majority can't understand why someone would like it, but there are some that would love it for some strange reason. Dress code is a simple procedural issue while utilizing ancient designs is a engineering issue which is far more complex.
It would be different if the ship was one of the free ones you get as you are playing, but after spending money on a ship it would be awesome if it had some usability past one day of playing. Now I honestly got the ship with the bundle only because I was going to buy two of the uniforms anyway, so no harm. As it is right now you can upgrade the NX to have all the modern equipment. I means its shields can get almost as good as a tier five. The only thing that isnt upgradeable is how many weapons it has and console slots. There is simply no reason a newly made NX couldn't be made with those upgrades. Correct me if I am wrong but I think the NX is way bigger than the Defiant, so it could have everything a defiant has? Would be different if the ship actually came from the past, but these are remodeled ships.
It would be different if the ship was one of the free ones you get as you are playing, but after spending money on a ship it would be awesome if it had some usability past one day of playing. Now I honestly got the ship with the bundle only because I was going to buy two of the uniforms anyway, so no harm. As it is right now you can upgrade the NX to have all the modern equipment. I means its shields can get almost as good as a tier five. The only thing that isnt upgradeable is how many weapons it has and console slots. There is simply no reason a newly made NX couldn't be made with those upgrades. Correct me if I am wrong but I think the NX is way bigger than the Defiant, so it could have everything a defiant has? Would be different if the ship actually came from the past, but these are remodeled ships.
Pretty sure i read somewhere that the akira was supposed to be a modern NX class. they have similar looks and abilities
Ah, the idea that something should be useful more that one day. That come from the logic of levelling. 80% of the item in the game have a lifetime as useful inferior to a week. I wonder who in his insane mind continue to use level restiction on item and made item useful less than a week on a game that some people play for one to 3 years.
That say, the ship suffer nearly the same problem : they are designed to be used in a level range in a game where everyone is level max. True, you can upgrade their weapon but that will not change the problem. We need to be actually able to fly them in any mission without feeling silly either because we are making the team too weak or either because we are flying an uber retrofirt that will not fit the canon.
Though I have issue with the impossibility to get a retrofit Ambassador as I did the mission when I was level 50 it was not possible to use it.
So to use more T1/T2 ship as they are we need to think out of the box. As people does not seem to have taken or supported a lot the previous proposal I make a new one :
Make it very hard to level so people play at level 10-20 for a year by making the level require x 10 000 skills point (or divide the skill point gain by 10 000) and making the xp curve really exponantial (the more you go up the less skill point you gain). This should be retroactive to all player of course. This will solve the problem of having a huge number of vice-admiral in Star*Mexican*Fleet. This way we will use the lower tier ship a lot. Ah, and don't give free ship as the player level.
So, fellow players brainstorm on the subject the goal is : Allow people to play T1/T2 as they are along T4/T5 ships in any mission.
Slower leveling time would help. I played the first month the game came out and then starting at the end of may (so all my characters start at the end of may or later as level 1.) Its now towards the end of July so after two months I have a lvl 50 fed a level 12 fed a level 50 Romulan and a level 20 KDF.
We have Starfleet officers running around in all kinds of weird ships that they "stole" from the bad guys... I think having people run around with old actual starfleet ships shouldnt be that big of a deal.
I'd be happy if they gave us a minor hull and weapon layout upgrade equal to T3 (no more than 25-30k?). Also the ability to have a T5 console and BOff layout, now that would be cool!
I'm fine with my TOS ships not having the same stats as true T5 ships (I get it, not canon) but there is nothing stopping them from giving T1 TOS ships what I mentioned before.
BTW there are a few Pre-TOS ships at T5 already, so far it's not "game breaking".
The point is not whether the Miranda is being used in 2409, but whether it could actually be upgraded to be a match for the Sovereign, Vesta, Prometheus, and other Tier 5 ships.
That's not what we (or, at least, some of us) are arguing.
What proponents like myself are arguing for are versions of these Tier One and Two vessels that are useful in endgame content. Nothing more.
Nobody expects them to be a match one on one with the "bleeding edge" technology ships. However, people who want to use a light cruiser or standard cruiser in endgame STFs or Fleet Actions should be able to do so. And use the "skins" they desire, despite what some may consider to be "obsolete" (which is mostly irrelevant in this game, despite nitpicking to the contrary).
There is absolutely no excuse for the lack of higher level versions. Especially, with the Tier 2 cruisers when their stablemates have Tier 5 upgrades.
There is absolutely no excuse for the lack of higher level versions. Especially, with the Tier 2 cruisers when their stablemates have Tier 5 upgrades.
CBS has already said NO T5 CONNIE, when will people get it, we will almost definitely not get a t5 connie, it doesn't matter how much people whine or beg, CBS has said NO.
Granted i would like to see t5 versions of many of the ships (Miranda is one of my favorite ship classes), but there is a limit to which ones they can make t5.
Pretty sure i read somewhere that the akira was supposed to be a modern NX class. they have similar looks and abilities
The reason for the similar look is that the producers of Enterprise, Berman and Braga, first decided to use the Akira class the way she looked in "First Contact" in the 22nd century.
When the art department found out about this boneheaded idea they talked them into changing the design somewhat.
That's why they look so similar...in terms of abilities they have little in common beyond they fact they're both ships.
The reason for the similar look is that the producers of Enterprise, Berman and Braga, first decided to use the Akira class the way she looked in "First Contact" in the 22nd century.
When the art department found out about this boneheaded idea they talked them into changing the design somewhat.
That's why they look so similar...in terms of abilities they have little in common beyond they fact they're both ships.
Braga is an idiot, how did he stay on Star trek stuff for that long without being burned on the stake.
CBS has already said NO T5 CONNIE, when will people get it, we will almost definitely not get a t5 connie, it doesn't matter how much people whine or beg, CBS has said NO.
Granted i would like to see t5 versions of many of the ships (Miranda is one of my favorite ship classes), but there is a limit to which ones they can make t5.
That prohibition applies to the Original Series Constitution. Not the refit version from the movies.
That prohibition applies to the Original Series Constitution. Not the refit version from the movies.
Which, by most sources, refer to as an Enterprise class. Only a couple sources refer to both the TOS Constitution & TMP refit, as a Constitution class heavy cruiser.
(BTW, I do tend to follow the old FASA RPG version, which does differentiate between the two, on nomenclature)
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
Comments
The point is not whether the Miranda is being used in 2409, but whether it could actually be upgraded to be a match for the Sovereign, Vesta, Prometheus, and other Tier 5 ships.
I strongly believe that is a bad idea to make all ship the same power. So the point is that we should be able to fly a Miranda in fleet action or pvp without condemning the team to failure. The point of this thread, if you read the OP, is not to make the Miranda as strong as a sovereign. The point of wether the Miranda could or could not be upgraded is only one aspect of the problem and serveral, may be not you, seem to think that we should not fly the MIranda in 2409. I was answering to them.
So how so you suggest a way for the Miranda to flight in pvp and fleet action? I have and other have posted suggestions.
Skanvak Drakken
http://lamaisondesdrakkens.clan-box.com/index.php
There seems to be two arguments going on this thread, the classic Tier 5 Constitution/Miranda debate and the queues for T1 and T2 ships. It seems like any thread that deals with Miranda or Constitution brings out the fans of Tier 5 Constitution/Miranda and those who strongly oppose that idea. I was trying to clarify the Tier 5 Constitution/Miranda debate. The OP's suggestion has some merit. Even though some of us are against Tier 5 Constitutions/Mirandas, the Constitution/Miranda still has value in 2409. Namely as a ship to gain experience on for officers that just obtained the right to captain a ship.
Private Queues would be the best for PvP. Can set up TOS, TNG, etc PvP style matches where bringing in the wrong type of ship would get a warning. Fleet Actions would require some work. Maybe a private queue where certain constraints are put into place like a choice to bring only Tier 1 ships with the difficulty adjusted accordingly. A lot of this stuff can be done by the players themselves. Would be a real challenge for some players to run Crystalline Entity in Tier 1 ships especially if it is the Elite version. Think that should have a reward similar to NWS.
So Im basically for BOFF/console slot normalization independent of tier while keeping everything else the same.
Make them like shuttles and buff them up where ever you are uisng them.
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
We need innovative thinking to have Miranda fight along Galaxy and Sovereign. That is the result we should aime at.
My main proposal is to move from player limit to point value limit. The scaling (when there is noe) will be made according to the point value of the team.
Historically if fleet where not fully made of Dreadnought there was a reason. In STO you seem to go for the all Dreadnought fleet that happen when no contengency limit what player can fly.
Skanvak Drakken
http://lamaisondesdrakkens.clan-box.com/index.php
Due to Cryptic's habit of hardcoding things in a way that's coded purely for review, the chances are such a thing would take a complete overhaul of how ships are coded. I don't know that it is struct based, but I suspect it is, it seems to be the way Cryptic does things. They'd have to overhault the entire ship handling code to use classes with generics and inheritability instead of structs
↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → Ⓑ Ⓐ
Also as mentioned the dress code is horrible. Federation should only have one option of uniforms and command should be red, not tactical. But since this is already ignored an NX class ship isnt that rediculous.
Nothing stopping people from playing an NX besides the lack of firepower of a modified 22nd century ship design. The NX was upgraded with the modern technology and it ended up as just as a Tier 1 ship. It is not like the NX we pilot is from the 22nd Century. However, having a lax dress code is far less ridiculous than using a modified 22nd Century ship design. It is kind of like someone trying to bring back Victorian Dresses using modern fabrics. Majority can't understand why someone would like it, but there are some that would love it for some strange reason. Dress code is a simple procedural issue while utilizing ancient designs is a engineering issue which is far more complex.
It would be different if the ship was one of the free ones you get as you are playing, but after spending money on a ship it would be awesome if it had some usability past one day of playing. Now I honestly got the ship with the bundle only because I was going to buy two of the uniforms anyway, so no harm. As it is right now you can upgrade the NX to have all the modern equipment. I means its shields can get almost as good as a tier five. The only thing that isnt upgradeable is how many weapons it has and console slots. There is simply no reason a newly made NX couldn't be made with those upgrades. Correct me if I am wrong but I think the NX is way bigger than the Defiant, so it could have everything a defiant has? Would be different if the ship actually came from the past, but these are remodeled ships.
Pretty sure i read somewhere that the akira was supposed to be a modern NX class. they have similar looks and abilities
That say, the ship suffer nearly the same problem : they are designed to be used in a level range in a game where everyone is level max. True, you can upgrade their weapon but that will not change the problem. We need to be actually able to fly them in any mission without feeling silly either because we are making the team too weak or either because we are flying an uber retrofirt that will not fit the canon.
Though I have issue with the impossibility to get a retrofit Ambassador as I did the mission when I was level 50 it was not possible to use it.
So to use more T1/T2 ship as they are we need to think out of the box. As people does not seem to have taken or supported a lot the previous proposal I make a new one :
Make it very hard to level so people play at level 10-20 for a year by making the level require x 10 000 skills point (or divide the skill point gain by 10 000) and making the xp curve really exponantial (the more you go up the less skill point you gain). This should be retroactive to all player of course. This will solve the problem of having a huge number of vice-admiral in Star*Mexican*Fleet. This way we will use the lower tier ship a lot. Ah, and don't give free ship as the player level.
So, fellow players brainstorm on the subject the goal is : Allow people to play T1/T2 as they are along T4/T5 ships in any mission.
Skanvak Drakken
http://lamaisondesdrakkens.clan-box.com/index.php
We have Starfleet officers running around in all kinds of weird ships that they "stole" from the bad guys... I think having people run around with old actual starfleet ships shouldnt be that big of a deal.
I'm fine with my TOS ships not having the same stats as true T5 ships (I get it, not canon) but there is nothing stopping them from giving T1 TOS ships what I mentioned before.
BTW there are a few Pre-TOS ships at T5 already, so far it's not "game breaking".
Join Date: Aug 14th 2008
That's not what we (or, at least, some of us) are arguing.
What proponents like myself are arguing for are versions of these Tier One and Two vessels that are useful in endgame content. Nothing more.
Nobody expects them to be a match one on one with the "bleeding edge" technology ships. However, people who want to use a light cruiser or standard cruiser in endgame STFs or Fleet Actions should be able to do so. And use the "skins" they desire, despite what some may consider to be "obsolete" (which is mostly irrelevant in this game, despite nitpicking to the contrary).
There is absolutely no excuse for the lack of higher level versions. Especially, with the Tier 2 cruisers when their stablemates have Tier 5 upgrades.
CBS has already said NO T5 CONNIE, when will people get it, we will almost definitely not get a t5 connie, it doesn't matter how much people whine or beg, CBS has said NO.
Granted i would like to see t5 versions of many of the ships (Miranda is one of my favorite ship classes), but there is a limit to which ones they can make t5.
The reason for the similar look is that the producers of Enterprise, Berman and Braga, first decided to use the Akira class the way she looked in "First Contact" in the 22nd century.
When the art department found out about this boneheaded idea they talked them into changing the design somewhat.
That's why they look so similar...in terms of abilities they have little in common beyond they fact they're both ships.
Braga is an idiot, how did he stay on Star trek stuff for that long without being burned on the stake.
That prohibition applies to the Original Series Constitution. Not the refit version from the movies.
Which, by most sources, refer to as an Enterprise class. Only a couple sources refer to both the TOS Constitution & TMP refit, as a Constitution class heavy cruiser.
(BTW, I do tend to follow the old FASA RPG version, which does differentiate between the two, on nomenclature)
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"