It is quite fair. Both are flying craft, with the intent of flying. One does it better than the other. It's as simple as that.
Multiple ships have been destroyed because they have been disabled, TRIBBLE, rammed, sabotaged, or other attacks that don't reflect the vessel(s) at peak performance. The Miranda-class vessels in the Dominion War combat scenes were all at peak performance, and they got shot up very badly. Both the Miranda and the Nebula classes were designed for exploration/science/combat. One does it better than the other. The exact same deal.
Your trying to compare things that fly in the real world with things from fictional tv show. It is impossible to compare that easily.
We have seen Jem'Hadar attack ships destroyed very easily and they had been at peak performance. Even seen a Breen ship destroyed easily. No ramming,TRIBBLE,disabled or sabotaged in such instances.
Yes their are ships that do better then other ships at certain things but Miranda Class was still good enough to be in regular service. Their is no valid reason to not have a tier 5 version.
Let's flip the problem on its head: Most people want a T5 Miranda/NX/1701 because they want to be able to bring the thing into an STF/PvE queue without bothering others. /snip
Thats not what people championing for the T5 versions are really looking for I would guess that some if not most would like to be able to play the game in their favorite ships they saw in the movies and the TOS series, as you can already do a private que in whatever ship you want mostly and tackle the borg as the Ausomonouts Fleet demonstrated by beating ISE in T1/2 ships IRRC it took 2hours.
While the TOS Connie is pretty much a no-no so far as I understand, maybe the Miranda type cruiser could be updated if their was enough interest to make it profitable for Cryptic to update the design.
I don't personally care for a T5 NX, but the Fleet Exeter in Snoggymack22 sig is interesting.
I would love to see a do-it all T5 Mirada with an Exeter style skin option layed out like so....
TYPE Destroyer
HULL 36,000
SHLD MOD 1.0
WPNS 4/4 can equip dual cannons
CREW 250
BOFF STATIONS TRIBBLE TRIBBLE TRIBBLE XX or XX on Fleet
DEVICES 3
CONSOLES TRIBBLE TRIBBLE or XXXX on Fleet TRIBBLE
TURN 10.5
IMPULSE MOD 0.15
INERTIA 25
BONUS POWER
+10 Shields
+10 Auxillary
SPECIAL CONSOLE Genesis torpedo :P jk
need something nice but not OP though I would imagine this ship would be used more for RP and PVE that anything else.
The idea is literally a combination on the starting light cruiser, a MU Vo'Quv carrier's stations, and a Vor'cha/Chel Gret love child :P. A ship that can do just about anything well but acts as a workhorse cruiser that can go out rescue the colonists and make it back fighting battles along the way if necessary but not actively competing with other traditional classes and it seems more like what we saw it used for, as a stop-gap ship until the big boys could get there but able to take care of itself in the meantime.
Is it possible I think so, likely to be built who knows but I imagine there are a lot of "Wrath of Khan" fans out there that might be willing to drop some coin on a ship that brings back memories.
Imagine the classic Miranda vs classic K'tinga D7 battles you could have
BTW where is my T'liss skin for the T'varo retrofit come on gimme
IMO, something I posted long, long, LONG ago, players should be able to upgrade the BOFF/ Console / Slot / values of their ship to the new rank / tier they get to. If the player so desires to switch to a different ship / hull, then so be it. /snip
IRRC Each ship requires a separate model/design under the current game engine which would make all the variables to ship customization that you suggest a non-starter since you would be looking at literally hundreds of models to be made for little profit on Cryptics end. Geko had mentioned something about making some Fleet ships having customizable layouts but it would be limited to a basic template type of idea, otherwise any idea of balance would go out the window as some people would min/max the best possible combination then just run any of the random pug fleet actions into the ground.
Just a damned hull. Bet Starfleet still has a few boneyards FULL of all manners of old ships. One of those awesome things we never really got to see on screen. There for a reason too.
split up the eras, and add a constellation class. including various other ships we briefly saw onscreen.
Lyndon Brewer: 20% chance to capture enemy ship for 60 seconds on successful use of boarding party.
Your trying to compare things that fly in the real world with things from fictional tv show. It is impossible to compare that easily.
We have seen Jem'Hadar attack ships destroyed very easily and they had been at peak performance. Even seen a Breen ship destroyed easily. No ramming,TRIBBLE,disabled or sabotaged in such instances.
Yes their are ships that do better then other ships at certain things but Miranda Class was still good enough to be in regular service. Their is no valid reason to not have a tier 5 version.
And it's equally impossible to compare ships that served the purpose of plot in a television show, not actual performance in a combat simulator. Plot armor, and all that.
We have also seen Jem'Hadar attack ships deal significant amounts of damage, especially when swarming a target. Mirandas, even when swarming, have been blown to bits in a couple shots, and have dealt virtually no significant damage.
In the Dominion War, it's not that the Miranda-class passed some kind of combat ship competency test. Starfleet needed all the ships it could muster to repel the Dominion threat. Using the numerous Excelsior and Miranda class ships flying around the Federation from the days of TNG, they had the numbers they needed to field numerous Fleets of over 100 vessels. Starfleet paid the price with the Miranda-class. In almost every Starfleet battle, Miranda-class vessels were lost due to enemy weapons fire.
Now, in 2413, Starfleet has had over twenty years to refit their aging fleet. The experimentally-proven cannon fodder is very likely to be phased out.
This is why a Tier 5 Miranda is, without a doubt, no longer feasible. It sucked in TWOK. It sucked in TNG. It sucked in DS9's many, many battles. It has a proven history of being a ship that is easily killed. Economically, why would Starfleet invest time and resources to keep a ship line in active service when it has a long record of incompetency?
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
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No, this is the point were you cannot argue with him and try to use "its fiction" card as a get-out-of-jail card to justify whatever you want.
I did not say I cant I said not so easily. Their is just not enough info on something that is not real to be able to accurately compare to real world things that are known.
All I know is that Miranda class ships have been in use for a long time according to the shows and if they are so ineffective their is no way starfleet would have them remain in active service.
All I know is that Miranda class ships have been in use for a long time according to the shows and if they are so ineffective their is no way starfleet would have them remain in active service.
So in other words, you are against a Miranda-class in active service, let alone a refitted one. You could have just said this from the beginning.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
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We have also seen Jem'Hadar attack ships deal significant amounts of damage, especially when swarming a target. Mirandas, even when swarming, have been blown to bits in a couple shots, and have dealt virtually no significant damage.
In the Dominion War, it's not that the Miranda-class passed some kind of combat ship competency test. Starfleet needed all the ships it could muster to repel the Dominion threat. Using the numerous Excelsior and Miranda class ships flying around the Federation from the days of TNG, they had the numbers they needed to field numerous Fleets of over 100 vessels. Starfleet paid the price with the Miranda-class. In almost every Starfleet battle, Miranda-class vessels were lost due to enemy weapons fire.
Now, in 2413, Starfleet has had over twenty years to refit their aging fleet. The experimentally-proven cannon fodder is very likely to be phased out.
This is why a Tier 5 Miranda is, without a doubt, no longer feasible. It sucked in TWOK. It sucked in TNG. It sucked in DS9's many, many battles. It has a proven history of being a ship that is easily killed. Economically, why would Starfleet invest time and resources to keep a ship line in active service when it has a long record of incompetency?
It is true Mirada class ships are not as well overall in combat compared to Jem'Hadar attack ships but each have been destroyed easily so using easily being destroy should not factor into anything. Weapons wise the Dominion are overall superior in that regard I will give you that.
Yes Starfleet needed ships during the war but even when their was no war their was still a lot of Miranda class ships in service and their had to be a reason. The only reason I can think is they are still good enough ships.
It suck in TWOK OMG I can not believe this. The Reliant took a hell of a beating with its shield down in the Nebula yes your right that sucks. You mean the same Starfleet that has used it for over 100 years now all of a sudden stops using them when they are at war with klingons and have Borg,Undine,Tholian and so on threats? Yes it is possible they might decide to just use newer ships but why still use Excelsior class then?
It is true Mirada class ships are not as well overall in combat compared to Jem'Hadar attack ships but each have been destroyed easily so using easily being destroy should not factor into anything. Weapons wise the Dominion are overall superior in that regard I will give you that.
So if death counts don't "count", then really, what can we compare with?
We are talking about a starship which will do combat operations and be expected to perform on a similar level as the T5 Defiant-class, in STO. If you are not willing to count the number of times a ship is killed at peak performance, then what else can we work with? How pretty the ship is?
Yes Starfleet needed ships during the war but even when their was no war their was still a lot of Miranda class ships in service and their had to be a reason. The only reason I can think is they are still good enough ships.
Because Starfleet needs patrol ships, just like any navy today. They are not the flagships of the fleet, they are there to patrol and handle small incidents.
It suck in TWOK OMG I can not believe this. The Reliant took a hell of a beating with its shield down
So did the Enterprise, and in fact, the Reliant had the advantage, TWICE, of a surprise attack. Once in the first fight, the second in the nebula when the epileptic light was distracting the Enterprise. And in both cases, Enterprise was hit pretty badly but didn't suffer complete failure like Reliant did.
in the Nebula yes your right that sucks. You mean the same Starfleet that has used it for over 100 years now all of a sudden stops using them when they are at war with klingons and have Borg,Undine,Tholian and so on threats? Yes it is possible they might decide to just use newer ships but why still use Excelsior class then?
I don't have an answer for the Excelsior-class, other than that (according to rumor), Geko prefers that ship, and thus gave it benefits that it shouldn't. See the Galaxy thread for more on that.
Wow I do not know what to say and how you can come to that conclusion.
Read it again then. I bolded specific parts of your quote.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
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This is why a Tier 5 Miranda is, without a doubt, no longer feasible. It sucked in TWOK. It sucked in TNG. It sucked in DS9's many, many battles. It has a proven history of being a ship that is easily killed. Economically, why would Starfleet invest time and resources to keep a ship line in active service when it has a long record of incompetency?
I wouldn't say it sucks or is no longer feasible. It can be good for exploration, scientific research, helping colonies, and other important roles. It is just not designed for combat. In a non-combat role, it is a nice and relatively cheap ship that can be sent where needed when a far more impressive ship like the Vesta is not necessary.
I wouldn't say it sucks or is no longer feasible. It can be good for exploration, scientific research, helping colonies, and other important roles. It is just not designed for combat. In a non-combat role, it is a nice and relatively cheap ship that can be sent where needed when a far more impressive ship like the Vesta is not necessary.
I agree with this, and if STO had more of an emphasis on exploration instead of combat, I wouldn't mind as much. Unfortunately, 99% of all non-social maps involve combat.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
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So if death counts don't "count", then really, what can we compare with?
We are talking about a starship which will do combat operations and be expected to perform on a similar level as the T5 Defiant-class, in STO. If you are not willing to count the number of times a ship is killed at peak performance, then what else can we work with? How pretty the ship is?
Because Starfleet needs patrol ships, just like any navy today. They are not the flagships of the fleet, they are there to patrol and handle small incidents.
So did the Enterprise, and in fact, the Reliant had the advantage, TWICE, of a surprise attack. Once in the first fight, the second in the nebula when the epileptic light was distracting the Enterprise. And in both cases, Enterprise was hit pretty badly but didn't suffer complete failure like Reliant did.
I don't have an answer for the Excelsior-class, other than that (according to rumor), Geko prefers that ship, and thus gave it benefits that it shouldn't. See the Galaxy thread for more on that.
Read it again then. I bolded specific parts of your quote.
What I am saying is we have seen easily destroyed ships on both sides so their is no point using that for anything except that ships can potentially be destroyed easily. We do not know why it has happened. Anything could of caused it. Defective shields or whatever.
If they are so ineffective as you are making it out to be when trouble arrives they would of been out of service much earlier.
Khan did not want to destroy the Enterprise when the Reliant first attacked. He wanted to cause heavy damage and then get information on the Genesis device before destroying the Enterprise. In the Nebula it is true that the Reliant was unable to do the damage that the Enterprise did but that does no mean it sucked.
I said if they are so ineffective their is no way starfleet would have them remain in active service. Now they had been in active service for so long so they had to be effective enough to handle hostile encounters.
The Defiant was specifically designed to be a fast, maneuverable, and powerful small ship to fight the Borg. The Miranda seems to be for Exploration so it has more sensors than the Defiant and other stuff that the Defiant excluded because they are non-combat features.
Sure the Miranda has been in fights with the Borg, but these fights were about calling every available ship to stop an enemy rather than just ships designed for battle or multi-purpose ships like the Galaxy. If a NX or Constitution was available, then Starfleet would have used those as well.
Except there were no NX or Connies because Starfleet gave up on those rust buckets centuries ago.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
What I am saying is we have seen easily destroyed ships on both sides so their is no point using that for anything except that ships can potentially be destroyed easily. We do not know why it has happened. Anything could of caused it. Defective shields or whatever.
If they are so ineffective as you are making it out to be when trouble arrives they would of been out of service much earlier.
Khan did not want to destroy the Enterprise when the Reliant first attacked. He wanted to cause heavy damage and then get information on the Genesis device before destroying the Enterprise. In the Nebula it is true that the Reliant was unable to do the damage that the Enterprise did but that does no mean it sucked.
So, foot soldiers are no longer effective then? Because they have a high death chance in a wartime operation scenario, but they are necessary. Same deal here. Mirandas' are in service because one, Starfleet was so desperate for ships and they had a plentiful supply of Mirandas, and two, Mirandas serve as bullseye targets so the valuable ships in the fleet can strike without being decimated.
Reliant was damaged and was forced to retreat after two desperate phaser shots, whereas the Enterprise took a photon torpedo hit and a close-range phaser assault. It doesn't matter that Khan aimed to disable the Enterprise. Enterprise retaliated and Reliant took such severe damage that retreat was the only viable option.
As for the Mutara battle, yes, Reliant "sucked". It had the opportunity to deal a killing blow directly into the Enterprise's gaping cavity. Enterprise took damage to the torp launcher but was still functional. Enterprise retaliates with a similar phaser shot, which kills a lot of the crew and again forces Reliant to retreat. Furthermore, even though Enterprise took a photon hit earlier and was stunned, Reliant took a photon hit and a warp nacelle blew off. A few more shots to the torpedo launchers, and the entire ship is a floating paperweight.
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the spitfire was modernized in doctor who ti fight in space and was incredibly effective. your argument is uncontollably invalid.
Doctor Who has nothing to do with Star Trek.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
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This is a totally unfair comparison to starships. The Wright Brothers plane was not build for combat at all.
Back to this too old. Their are already ships at tier 5 that are as old as some that people want to have a tier 5 version.
Except the Miranda and both the Connie and the Refit are older than the Excelsior class, granted not a whole lot older but they're older.
Here is a question for all of those Connie fans...have you ever asked yourselves why Starfleet gave up on them and not the Excelsior? No one knows but it wasn't simply a flip of a coin over one or the other...
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
So, foot soldiers are no longer effective then? Because they have a high death chance in a wartime operation scenario, but they are necessary. Same deal here. Mirandas' are in service because one, Starfleet was so desperate for ships and they had a plentiful supply of Mirandas, and two, Mirandas serve as bullseye targets so the valuable ships in the fleet can strike without being decimated.
Reliant was damaged and was forced to retreat after two desperate phaser shots, whereas the Enterprise took a photon torpedo hit and a close-range phaser assault. It doesn't matter that Khan aimed to disable the Enterprise. Enterprise retaliated and Reliant took such severe damage that retreat was the only viable option.
As for the Mutara battle, yes, Reliant "sucked". It had the opportunity to deal a killing blow directly into the Enterprise's gaping cavity. Enterprise took damage to the torp launcher but was still functional. Enterprise retaliates with a similar phaser shot, which kills a lot of the crew and again forces Reliant to retreat. Furthermore, even though Enterprise took a photon hit earlier and was stunned, Reliant took a photon hit and a warp nacelle blew off. A few more shots to the torpedo launchers, and the entire ship is a floating paperweight.
Miranda Class was in service before the war why? It had to be because they had been able to effectively deal with problems they encountered to that point. Once the war started they had some trouble but so did a lot of ships fighting against the Cardassians/Dominion we just happend to see a lot of problems with them because their was more chances to see them in fights.
It does matter. The amount of damage Khan did with the surprise attack it was intentional he did not want to risk destroying the Enterprise by accident. Kirk did not care how much damage he did he just wanted to save his ship.
In the Nebula the hits were lucky/unlucky could not get clear target locks just fire and hope for the best.
Except the Miranda and both the Connie and the Refit are older than the Excelsior class, granted not a whole lot older but they're older.
Here is a question for all of those Connie fans...have you ever asked yourselves why Starfleet gave up on them and not the Excelsior? No one knows but it wasn't simply a flip of a coin over one or the other...
The K'Tinga is older then the Miranda yet the Klingons still used them into the 2nd half of the 24th century. Their is a reason each side still used some ships for such a long time.
The Excelsior was the Great Experiment. Built for transwarp but when that did not work it was used like a normal ship and did such a good job that they favored it.
the spitfire was modernized in doctor who ti fight in space and was incredibly effective. your argument is uncontollably invalid.
The Doctor has technology far beyond anything the Federation has. If we utilize 29th Century technology on the NX, Miranda, or Constitution, then those ships would be able to easily destroy any Tier 5 ship. After all, if a 20th Century barbarian could almost take down Voyager with 29th Century technology, then 22nd and 23rd Century ships modified with 29th Century technology will do even better. With sufficiently advanced technology, the Wright Brothers plane could easily defeat the F-22. Although, that does bring up the question if the design is from the early 20th Century and it uses technology 500 years from now, is it still the Wright Brothers design? So at what point does a Tier 5 Constitution no longer stay a Constitution?
The K'Tinga is older then the Miranda yet the Klingons still used them into the 2nd half of the 24th century. Their is a reason each side still used some ships for such a long time.
The Excelsior was the Great Experiment. Built for transwarp but when that did not work it was used like a normal ship and did such a good job that they favored it.
And Klingons have been in space for centuries longer than humans. Meaning that they have perfected their designs over the centuries so the design life for their ships is far longer than any Starfleet ship.
And Klingons have been in space for centuries longer than humans. Meaning that they have perfected their designs over the centuries so the design life for their ships is far longer than any Starfleet ship.
And yet they have had many different classes but only a few had been used for so long.
It's pretty ridiculous that this has turned into such a long thread painting ships into corners of what's useful and what's not. the point of the whole thing has been flipped completely on it's head.
this whole game is a fanfare. the only thing it does remotely well is pander to the masses. its asinine that people are arguing against allowing somebody else to use whatever ship they damn well want.
also the laws of aerodynamics don't apply in space. it makes absolutely no difference what a spacecraft is shaped like.
also the laws of aerodynamics don't apply in space. it makes absolutely no difference what a spacecraft is shaped like.
Actually it does matter what the spacecraft is shaped like. Quantum Slipstream is said to require a specific shape to make it less stressful on the ship. Warp travel might even require a decent shape to be of use. I think Voyager's warp nacelle movement makes it move faster during Warp. However, the shape is most important in battle. As mentioned in this thread before, the neck and nacelle struts of the Constitution are structural weaknesses during battle that could split the ship in half with a lucky torpedo.
And yet they have had many different classes but only a few had been used for so long.
I hardly would say Klingons have had *many* different designs, from TMP to TNG all we saw new was the Vor'cha and Negh'var. They find something they like and that works and they stick with it. Starfleet likes to build bigger and better things.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
It's pretty ridiculous that this has turned into such a long thread painting ships into corners of what's useful and what's not. the point of the whole thing has been flipped completely on it's head.
this whole game is a fanfare. the only thing it does remotely well is pander to the masses. its asinine that people are arguing against allowing somebody else to use whatever ship they damn well want.
also the laws of aerodynamics don't apply in space. it makes absolutely no difference what a spacecraft is shaped like.
I want a Super Star Destroyer, so by your logic I should be allowed it because it fits with any ship I damn well want. While I'm at it I want a Starfury personal fighter! How about a Daedalus-class battlecruiser with F-302 Fighters!
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
It's pretty ridiculous that this has turned into such a long thread painting ships into corners of what's useful and what's not. the point of the whole thing has been flipped completely on it's head.
this whole game is a fanfare. the only thing it does remotely well is pander to the masses. its asinine that people are arguing against allowing somebody else to use whatever ship they damn well want.
also the laws of aerodynamics don't apply in space. it makes absolutely no difference what a spacecraft is shaped like.
I would have to agree. Seems every time a thread like this comes up it de-rails into a pointless debate on the usefulness of every ship in the game.
Perhaps it's not always about usefulness? Maybe sometimes certain players like myself would love the opportunity to get back into my technically inferior ship with a group of others to bash Borg because it sounds fun.
I never get people who are quick to slam ideas down for the sake of 'canon' or 'realism' - especially in a game that routinely bends or even breaks the rules in both areas for improved gameplay or earning potential.
What? So I can't have a T5 Fleet Miranda but I can buy a shiny new Scimitar complete with illegal weaponry? To quote a popular American phrase 'go figure'.
Comments
Your trying to compare things that fly in the real world with things from fictional tv show. It is impossible to compare that easily.
We have seen Jem'Hadar attack ships destroyed very easily and they had been at peak performance. Even seen a Breen ship destroyed easily. No ramming,TRIBBLE,disabled or sabotaged in such instances.
Yes their are ships that do better then other ships at certain things but Miranda Class was still good enough to be in regular service. Their is no valid reason to not have a tier 5 version.
Thats not what people championing for the T5 versions are really looking for I would guess that some if not most would like to be able to play the game in their favorite ships they saw in the movies and the TOS series, as you can already do a private que in whatever ship you want mostly and tackle the borg as the Ausomonouts Fleet demonstrated by beating ISE in T1/2 ships IRRC it took 2hours.
While the TOS Connie is pretty much a no-no so far as I understand, maybe the Miranda type cruiser could be updated if their was enough interest to make it profitable for Cryptic to update the design.
IRRC Each ship requires a separate model/design under the current game engine which would make all the variables to ship customization that you suggest a non-starter since you would be looking at literally hundreds of models to be made for little profit on Cryptics end. Geko had mentioned something about making some Fleet ships having customizable layouts but it would be limited to a basic template type of idea, otherwise any idea of balance would go out the window as some people would min/max the best possible combination then just run any of the random pug fleet actions into the ground.
Another T5 connie, miranda thread......
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=776581
split up the eras, and add a constellation class. including various other ships we briefly saw onscreen.
cause sometimes its party time!
And it's equally impossible to compare ships that served the purpose of plot in a television show, not actual performance in a combat simulator. Plot armor, and all that.
We have also seen Jem'Hadar attack ships deal significant amounts of damage, especially when swarming a target. Mirandas, even when swarming, have been blown to bits in a couple shots, and have dealt virtually no significant damage.
In the Dominion War, it's not that the Miranda-class passed some kind of combat ship competency test. Starfleet needed all the ships it could muster to repel the Dominion threat. Using the numerous Excelsior and Miranda class ships flying around the Federation from the days of TNG, they had the numbers they needed to field numerous Fleets of over 100 vessels. Starfleet paid the price with the Miranda-class. In almost every Starfleet battle, Miranda-class vessels were lost due to enemy weapons fire.
Now, in 2413, Starfleet has had over twenty years to refit their aging fleet. The experimentally-proven cannon fodder is very likely to be phased out.
This is why a Tier 5 Miranda is, without a doubt, no longer feasible. It sucked in TWOK. It sucked in TNG. It sucked in DS9's many, many battles. It has a proven history of being a ship that is easily killed. Economically, why would Starfleet invest time and resources to keep a ship line in active service when it has a long record of incompetency?
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I did not say I cant I said not so easily. Their is just not enough info on something that is not real to be able to accurately compare to real world things that are known.
All I know is that Miranda class ships have been in use for a long time according to the shows and if they are so ineffective their is no way starfleet would have them remain in active service.
So in other words, you are against a Miranda-class in active service, let alone a refitted one. You could have just said this from the beginning.
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It is true Mirada class ships are not as well overall in combat compared to Jem'Hadar attack ships but each have been destroyed easily so using easily being destroy should not factor into anything. Weapons wise the Dominion are overall superior in that regard I will give you that.
Yes Starfleet needed ships during the war but even when their was no war their was still a lot of Miranda class ships in service and their had to be a reason. The only reason I can think is they are still good enough ships.
It suck in TWOK OMG I can not believe this. The Reliant took a hell of a beating with its shield down in the Nebula yes your right that sucks. You mean the same Starfleet that has used it for over 100 years now all of a sudden stops using them when they are at war with klingons and have Borg,Undine,Tholian and so on threats? Yes it is possible they might decide to just use newer ships but why still use Excelsior class then?
Wow I do not know what to say and how you can come to that conclusion.
So if death counts don't "count", then really, what can we compare with?
We are talking about a starship which will do combat operations and be expected to perform on a similar level as the T5 Defiant-class, in STO. If you are not willing to count the number of times a ship is killed at peak performance, then what else can we work with? How pretty the ship is?
Because Starfleet needs patrol ships, just like any navy today. They are not the flagships of the fleet, they are there to patrol and handle small incidents.
So did the Enterprise, and in fact, the Reliant had the advantage, TWICE, of a surprise attack. Once in the first fight, the second in the nebula when the epileptic light was distracting the Enterprise. And in both cases, Enterprise was hit pretty badly but didn't suffer complete failure like Reliant did.
I don't have an answer for the Excelsior-class, other than that (according to rumor), Geko prefers that ship, and thus gave it benefits that it shouldn't. See the Galaxy thread for more on that.
Read it again then. I bolded specific parts of your quote.
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I wouldn't say it sucks or is no longer feasible. It can be good for exploration, scientific research, helping colonies, and other important roles. It is just not designed for combat. In a non-combat role, it is a nice and relatively cheap ship that can be sent where needed when a far more impressive ship like the Vesta is not necessary.
I agree with this, and if STO had more of an emphasis on exploration instead of combat, I wouldn't mind as much. Unfortunately, 99% of all non-social maps involve combat.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
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What I am saying is we have seen easily destroyed ships on both sides so their is no point using that for anything except that ships can potentially be destroyed easily. We do not know why it has happened. Anything could of caused it. Defective shields or whatever.
If they are so ineffective as you are making it out to be when trouble arrives they would of been out of service much earlier.
Khan did not want to destroy the Enterprise when the Reliant first attacked. He wanted to cause heavy damage and then get information on the Genesis device before destroying the Enterprise. In the Nebula it is true that the Reliant was unable to do the damage that the Enterprise did but that does no mean it sucked.
I said if they are so ineffective their is no way starfleet would have them remain in active service. Now they had been in active service for so long so they had to be effective enough to handle hostile encounters.
Except there were no NX or Connies because Starfleet gave up on those rust buckets centuries ago.
So, foot soldiers are no longer effective then? Because they have a high death chance in a wartime operation scenario, but they are necessary. Same deal here. Mirandas' are in service because one, Starfleet was so desperate for ships and they had a plentiful supply of Mirandas, and two, Mirandas serve as bullseye targets so the valuable ships in the fleet can strike without being decimated.
Reliant was damaged and was forced to retreat after two desperate phaser shots, whereas the Enterprise took a photon torpedo hit and a close-range phaser assault. It doesn't matter that Khan aimed to disable the Enterprise. Enterprise retaliated and Reliant took such severe damage that retreat was the only viable option.
As for the Mutara battle, yes, Reliant "sucked". It had the opportunity to deal a killing blow directly into the Enterprise's gaping cavity. Enterprise took damage to the torp launcher but was still functional. Enterprise retaliates with a similar phaser shot, which kills a lot of the crew and again forces Reliant to retreat. Furthermore, even though Enterprise took a photon hit earlier and was stunned, Reliant took a photon hit and a warp nacelle blew off. A few more shots to the torpedo launchers, and the entire ship is a floating paperweight.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
the spitfire was modernized in doctor who ti fight in space and was incredibly effective. your argument is uncontollably invalid.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Doctor Who has nothing to do with Star Trek.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
Except the Miranda and both the Connie and the Refit are older than the Excelsior class, granted not a whole lot older but they're older.
Here is a question for all of those Connie fans...have you ever asked yourselves why Starfleet gave up on them and not the Excelsior? No one knows but it wasn't simply a flip of a coin over one or the other...
Miranda Class was in service before the war why? It had to be because they had been able to effectively deal with problems they encountered to that point. Once the war started they had some trouble but so did a lot of ships fighting against the Cardassians/Dominion we just happend to see a lot of problems with them because their was more chances to see them in fights.
It does matter. The amount of damage Khan did with the surprise attack it was intentional he did not want to risk destroying the Enterprise by accident. Kirk did not care how much damage he did he just wanted to save his ship.
In the Nebula the hits were lucky/unlucky could not get clear target locks just fire and hope for the best.
The K'Tinga is older then the Miranda yet the Klingons still used them into the 2nd half of the 24th century. Their is a reason each side still used some ships for such a long time.
The Excelsior was the Great Experiment. Built for transwarp but when that did not work it was used like a normal ship and did such a good job that they favored it.
The Doctor has technology far beyond anything the Federation has. If we utilize 29th Century technology on the NX, Miranda, or Constitution, then those ships would be able to easily destroy any Tier 5 ship. After all, if a 20th Century barbarian could almost take down Voyager with 29th Century technology, then 22nd and 23rd Century ships modified with 29th Century technology will do even better. With sufficiently advanced technology, the Wright Brothers plane could easily defeat the F-22. Although, that does bring up the question if the design is from the early 20th Century and it uses technology 500 years from now, is it still the Wright Brothers design? So at what point does a Tier 5 Constitution no longer stay a Constitution?
And Klingons have been in space for centuries longer than humans. Meaning that they have perfected their designs over the centuries so the design life for their ships is far longer than any Starfleet ship.
And yet they have had many different classes but only a few had been used for so long.
this whole game is a fanfare. the only thing it does remotely well is pander to the masses. its asinine that people are arguing against allowing somebody else to use whatever ship they damn well want.
also the laws of aerodynamics don't apply in space. it makes absolutely no difference what a spacecraft is shaped like.
Actually it does matter what the spacecraft is shaped like. Quantum Slipstream is said to require a specific shape to make it less stressful on the ship. Warp travel might even require a decent shape to be of use. I think Voyager's warp nacelle movement makes it move faster during Warp. However, the shape is most important in battle. As mentioned in this thread before, the neck and nacelle struts of the Constitution are structural weaknesses during battle that could split the ship in half with a lucky torpedo.
I hardly would say Klingons have had *many* different designs, from TMP to TNG all we saw new was the Vor'cha and Negh'var. They find something they like and that works and they stick with it. Starfleet likes to build bigger and better things.
I want a Super Star Destroyer, so by your logic I should be allowed it because it fits with any ship I damn well want. While I'm at it I want a Starfury personal fighter! How about a Daedalus-class battlecruiser with F-302 Fighters!
I would have to agree. Seems every time a thread like this comes up it de-rails into a pointless debate on the usefulness of every ship in the game.
Perhaps it's not always about usefulness? Maybe sometimes certain players like myself would love the opportunity to get back into my technically inferior ship with a group of others to bash Borg because it sounds fun.
I never get people who are quick to slam ideas down for the sake of 'canon' or 'realism' - especially in a game that routinely bends or even breaks the rules in both areas for improved gameplay or earning potential.
What? So I can't have a T5 Fleet Miranda but I can buy a shiny new Scimitar complete with illegal weaponry? To quote a popular American phrase 'go figure'.