In the later half of the 24th Century a Excelsior class ship named U.S.S. Lakota got a refit that allowed it to fight a unoffical warship named the U.S.S. Defiant. The result was neither ship could continue firing without destroying the other. When it got to that point neither side was willing to destroy the other.
It is unknown how much a Federation starship can be upgraded and still be a effective starship until the point comes that it is no longer effective.
In this very game the Excelsior has a tier 5 version that is as good as other Cruisers that had been designed and used in the later half of the 24th century. If the Excelsior can have a tier 5 then so should a Miranda class.
Having some missions that only allow lower tier ships would be cool and I would support it. It could even make them money by some people deciding to buy some of the lower tier C-Store ships to play those missions.
Or add hologram costumes to the GPL store. The problem is that the NX, Constitution, and Miranda just don't belong in the 25th Century being piloted by Vice Admirals. Having a Tier 5 ship that is using a Constitution Hologram Costume to look like a ship about 200 years old makes sense in the 25th Century.
As far as the T5 Constitution is concerned, I don't think even holograms could be possible. That method would be considered as a circumvention of the CBS ban because T5 ships would be using the image and likeness of the Connie. It's likely that, for all legal purposes, it would be the same as implementing a T5 Connie, which is currently restricted.
How do you know its a small minority? I would think it's a large proportion of the community that would like to use those types of ships at end game, just only a minority use the forums.
Same can be asked to you...how do you know a *large portion* of the community would be excited to fly old tugs?
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
Same can be asked to you...how do you know a *large portion* of the community would be excited to fly old tugs?
This is a Star Trek game right? Would you not think a lot of people who play the game are Star Trek fans? Would you not think a lot of them wants to fly a actual Star Trek ship from a show/movie rather then something that someone made just for the game?
Same can be asked to you...how do you know a *large portion* of the community would be excited to fly old tugs?
Well we are quite some to say yes we would like.
Back to the topics : May be we can make holodeck mission taking place in the past? This would be a good rational to enforce the use of T1-3 ship in those mission.
In the later half of the 24th Century a Excelsior class ship named U.S.S. Lakota got a refit that allowed it to fight a unoffical warship named the U.S.S. Defiant. The result was neither ship could continue firing without destroying the other. When it got to that point neither side was willing to destroy the other.
It is unknown how much a Federation starship can be upgraded and still be a effective starship until the point comes that it is no longer effective.
In this very game the Excelsior has a tier 5 version that is as good as other Cruisers that had been designed and used in the later half of the 24th century. If the Excelsior can have a tier 5 then so should a Miranda class.
Having some missions that only allow lower tier ships would be cool and I would support it. It could even make them money by some people deciding to buy some of the lower tier C-Store ships to play those missions.
I would say the fact that a excelsior was still used to the late 24th century in tng and can be upgraded says the ship is pretty modular, unlike the connie which even with a major refit it might have not even been in use for much longer than half a century.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
What is wrong with people who want T5 Mirandas, Constitutions, and NX class ships?
If you want to bring T1 ships into an ESTF...you make a private queue. I want Cryptic to work on bug fixes and stability, not implementing niche scenarios.
No "Kirk STFs"
No T1 ships in ESTF (I will personally report you for this if I ever see it)
No niche queues.
The only way I will ever accept the T5 Miranada is if it goes in the C-Store for 10000 Zen. Perhaps then, with all the wannabe T5 Miranda Captains, Cryptic can start to pay for more employees to help with fixing bugs. We can stimulate the economy in a way that actually works.
Ok, 1st, There's NOTHING wrong with those of us that want this, there's something wrong, however, with being a jackass.
2>Go ahead, try and report it. You'll not get anywhere, especially if the guy or gal doing this, is not griefing, but is just trying to have fun/try something new. What ship do you use? I think I'll report you for using that, instead of what I want you to use. That little garbage can go both ways.
3> How about that ship that you want goes into the C-Store for 20M Zen, so you can get pissed on?
About the only thing you posted that I could agree on with, is I'd like to see some bugs fixed. Other than that, I think you're saying, "TRIBBLE on you, I don't want it, I shouldn't have to put up with it!" Little clue, there's other people in this game, and there's going to be a wide variety of tastes. I think the Galaxy, and any derivitive is garbage, yet I have to see them, and put up with them. Guess what? Just like in real life, what I want, is not really what everyone wants, pretty much everyone has a unique flavour in their ideas, and what they like (ie, their opinions).
Now, if you can put up some CONSTRUCTIVE ideas on why these should not be allowed, then by all means, do so, and I would listen (or read as more applicable) with an open mind. But you just pissing on what some others think might be fun, that is not harming your ability to play in any way, is just crass. And if you don't like the way this is worded, I really don't care, as you seemed to not care what others would think of how you insulted them.:mad:
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
Aesthetics is not just about looks. In fact, I was not talking about the look of the ship at all in my post. The aesthetics I was talking about was changing the design every few years. Everything humans make has their designs change constantly. Cars, electronics, architecture, and tons of other stuff change over the years. Tons of people are appalled by what they wore and what hairstyle they used 20 years ago. This constant need for change is not necessarily evident in alien races. Attributing certain human values to aliens is ridiculous. So if a human would more likely design a new ship to accommodate the new technology while an alien race would fit the new technology into the old design with only minor changes to the actual design.
Ships have an effective design life. The shuttle had a design life for 30 years and likely went through numerous revisions to the design over the years. Eventually, it gets to the point where it can't keep up with the needs of the people using it and the new technology available. Sp even though Mirandas, Oberths, and Excelsiors were being commissioned in the 24th Century, they were approaching the end of their design life so they couldn't be improved as much as new ship designs that are at the start of their design life. Take a computer from 15 years ago and add new technology to it. There will be a noticeable benefit to the computer, but it won't have as much as an improvement to a computer from 3 years ago improved with today's technology.
So there are two possible situations, either the Constitution, NX, and Miranda have already been upgraded with current technology and all they reached is Tier 1 so a Tier 1 NX would completely destroy a TOS Constitution or upgrading these ships would just allow them to reach Tier 3 or Tier 4. There is no possible way that a Constitution, NX, or Miranda with current technology would be able to compete against a Tier 5 ship like the Sovereign, Prometheus, or Vesta and actually have Tier 5 versions of the Constitution, NX, and Miranda would throw out the last bit of Star Trek realism in this game. So we might as well have Tier 5 Phoenixes, Tier 5 Space Shuttles, Tier 5 16th Century Galleons, and Tier 5 Canoes.
I was basically ok with most of your post, up until the last bit, T5 Galleons? LOL but at least you did it in a humourous way.
But to use your analogy of, "Eventually, it gets to the point where it can't keep up with the needs of the people using it and the new technology available. Sp even though Mirandas, Oberths, and Excelsiors were being commissioned in the 24th Century, they were approaching the end of their design life so they couldn't be improved as much as new ship designs that are at the start of their design life. Take a computer from 15 years ago and add new technology to it. There will be a noticeable benefit to the computer, but it won't have as much as an improvement to a computer from 3 years ago improved with today's technology. ", pull everything from the PC case, and stick all new boards & ports init, and voila, you have a nice modern PC, that will meet & likely exceed your needs/wants. The same could be done with the "older" ships, I mean, it's technically done with a Kumari, the Klin do it with any BoP variant, and at least half their D-7 derivitave battlecruisers, Roms do it with various Warbirds? So how is it impossible to do the same, with Miranda/Constitution/etc etc? Your logic at this point does fail to explain why Starfleet is the ONLY organization that is incabale of taking 200+ year old ship designs, and making them T5/T6(Fleet) capable?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
Kumari, D'kyr, Somraw, T'varo, K't'inga... all are T5 refits of ships which were in service before the NX class. Even in game, the NX available is specifically a modern ship built to look like the 22nd century original, rather than an old ship refitted. Given that 25th century design seems to have gone back to disdaining secondary hulls, and their relative size, there is no reason said NX replica could not match a Patrol Escort's performance (to quote a similarly sized, shaped ship).
So, in terms of the established game - other than CBS, how does an NX at T5 not fit?
Kumari, D'kyr, Somraw, T'varo, K't'inga... all are T5 refits of ships which were in service before the NX class. Even in game, the NX available is specifically a modern ship built to look like the 22nd century original, rather than an old ship refitted. Given that 25th century design seems to have gone back to disdaining secondary hulls, and their relative size, there is no reason said NX replica could not match a Patrol Escort's performance (to quote a similarly sized, shaped ship).
So, in terms of the established game - other than CBS, how does an NX at T5 not fit?
Going to create a hypothetical scenario here.
The Wright Brothers' airplane (the first human aircraft, afaik).
Skip ahead to 2013. Some guy decides to create an authentic Wright Brothers' airplane using modern components. Same structure and identical look, but using composite materials, modern engines, etc.
Now, let's see how this replica airplane faces against an F-22 airplane.
I think we all know how this ends. The design of the Wright Brothers plane is simply too old to perform on the same level as the F-22, even though the WB plane has been refitted and built using 2013 technologies. The design is simply too old.
Same thing applies with the Miranda, Constitution, and NX classes. You can go ahead and recreate the ship. But the true effectiveness of the vessel is impaired, because the design is too old, despite the modern upgrades.
As for the other non-Federation 22nd century ships, they should not exist at all. Wipe them clean from the list of starships, because they break immersion and are also too old to be effective, despite the modern upgrades.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
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The Wright Brothers' airplane (the first human aircraft, afaik).
Skip ahead to 2013. Some guy decides to create an authentic Wright Brothers' airplane using modern components. Same structure and identical look, but using composite materials, modern engines, etc.
Now, let's see how this replica airplane faces against an F-22 airplane.
I think we all know how this ends. The design of the Wright Brothers plane is simply too old to perform on the same level as the F-22, even though the WB plane has been refitted and built using 2013 technologies. The design is simply too old.
Same thing applies with the Miranda, Constitution, and NX classes. You can go ahead and recreate the ship. But the true effectiveness of the vessel is impaired, because the design is too old, despite the modern upgrades.
As for the other non-Federation 22nd century ships, they should not exist at all. Wipe them clean from the list of starships, because they break immersion and are also too old to be effective, despite the modern upgrades.
And all that gets is a bunch of angry customers who bought the ship, congrats.
a much better scenario:
An old tank created using current tech vs a current tank: besides design and maybe a light disadvantage, they would likely be the same.
most of the arguments against this idea are just a matter of personal taste. as mentioned, there are already contradicting issues with pre nx ships in use already, making that case rather moot.
the real questions are about implementation. how feasible/efficient is it to recode the ships in the game to accomidate unlockable upgrades, and how best do you balance that value vs c-store ships?
if a endgame ship costs 2000 zen or roughly 250k dili, than upgrading your miranda or sabre (a t2 ship which has a fleet variant already :rolleyes:) maybe costs 2500-3000 zen in the long run, with tier refits every 10 levels.
the fleet modules will run you nearly 2000 zen or 20M ec as it is. seems rather equitable to me.
The Wright Brothers' airplane (the first human aircraft, afaik).
Skip ahead to 2013. Some guy decides to create an authentic Wright Brothers' airplane using modern components. Same structure and identical look, but using composite materials, modern engines, etc.
Now, let's see how this replica airplane faces against an F-22 airplane.
I think we all know how this ends. The design of the Wright Brothers plane is simply too old to perform on the same level as the F-22, even though the WB plane has been refitted and built using 2013 technologies. The design is simply too old.
Same thing applies with the Miranda, Constitution, and NX classes. You can go ahead and recreate the ship. But the true effectiveness of the vessel is impaired, because the design is too old, despite the modern upgrades.
As for the other non-Federation 22nd century ships, they should not exist at all. Wipe them clean from the list of starships, because they break immersion and are also too old to be effective, despite the modern upgrades.
Why is A Miranda too old but not a Excelsior which has tier 5 ship? Why is Miranda too old but not the K'tinga which has a tier 5 ship? Why is the Miranda too old but not the B'Rel which has a tier 5 ship?
Just because a design is old does not mean it is not effective. It is a case by case basis with things. You can't say a Miranda falls into the not effective enough catagory it is only your opinion.
And all that gets is a bunch of angry customers who bought the ship, congrats.
a much better scenario:
An old tank created using current tech vs a current tank: besides design and maybe a light disadvantage, they would likely be the same.
Change the costume so it's a different design, but the ship stats remain unchanged. For example, the Somraw can be slimmed down a bit, some Negh'Var-esque nacelles attached, and presto, a new-looking vessel.
And the whole point of the scenario I created was to show how there is a difference between a current design and a revitalized, but older, outdated, and infeasible design.
Why is A Miranda too old but not a Excelsior which has tier 5 ship? Why is Miranda too old but not the K'tinga which has a tier 5 ship? Why is the Miranda too old but not the B'Rel which has a tier 5 ship?
Just because a design is old does not mean it is not effective. It is a case by case basis with things. You can't say a Miranda falls into the not effective enough catagory it is only your opinion.
I agree with all of your examples. B'rels, K'tingas and Excelsiors were also shot up quite a bit during the Dominion War (and the K'tinga was not seen very often either). All three of these ships should be struck from the list, and a modernized costume created to replace it.
You are correct, age does not equal effectiveness. However, screen evidence is a show of effectiveness. It is shown on screen that the Miranda-class is cannon fodder, and was shot up repeatedly and consistently. I'd say, that's about how effective the ship is.
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I think a related problem that doesn't get a lot of talk is that with the great speed in leveling up, (case of Red Bull and a weekend, as I recall) we don't spend much meaningful time USING our lower-tier ships, and then spend forever with the T5s.
Perhaps if the T2 Constitution had an operational lifespan much greater than 10 story missions (at most, fewer with DOFFing. I have no idea why low-Mark purples sell so high on the exchange when they're only useful for a couple hours of gameplay), people wouldn't miss it so much at T5.
Heck, I'd love to spend more time with all my T1-T4 ships, and there's certainly enough missions in to slow down the leveling curve to do it, even for non-Federation factions (got to 50 with my new Romulan before setting foot on DS9).
Lest I drift too much further from the topic, though, I definitely endorse adding separate lower-tier queues. As valoreah noted, the technology needed to implement T1-T2 queues would be the same technology needed to restrict the current STF missions to T4-T5 ships.
Sounds like an "everyone wins" option to me.
Long ago, dev interviews even mentioned the desire to have content that uses lower-tier ships at endgame, and the implementation of "default small craft" was the first step toward being able to set a default craft for each tier that will be automatically selected as the mission dictates.
I agree with all of your examples. B'rels, K'tingas and Excelsiors were also shot up quite a bit during the Dominion War (and the K'tinga was not seen very often either). All three of these ships should be struck from the list, and a modernized costume created to replace it.
You are correct, age does not equal effectiveness. However, screen evidence is a show of effectiveness. It is shown on screen that the Miranda-class is cannon fodder, and was shot up repeatedly and consistently. I'd say, that's about how effective the ship is.
Starfleet is not the type that believes in cannon fodder. They would not be using a Miranda class if it was not effective enough in combat. Yes we have seen them destroyed even easily but the Miranda is not the only ship from Star Trek that has been seen to be easily destroyed on occasion.
Starfleet is not the type that believes in cannon fodder. They would not be using a Miranda class if it was not effective enough in combat. Yes we have seen them destroyed even easily but the Miranda is not the only ship from Star Trek that has been seen to be easily destroyed on occasion.
What you think Starfleet believes in, and the actual combat performance of a vessel, are two completely different things. One is theoretical ideas, the other is experimental data.
Operation: Return. Battle of Chin'toka. Battle of Cardassia Prime. On and on, Miranda-class starships were: 1) consistently seen to be destroyed by a shot or two, and 2) never once seen dealing critical damage to any starship.
The USS Lantree, and other Miranda-class starships throughout TNG.
1) Consistently seen to be destroyed in one or two hits. 2) Never once seen dealing critical damage to any starship. Even the Constellation-class appears to have superior performance in tactical exercises.
Consistent, on-screen track record of being cannon fodder. The only starship that comes to mind that is more consistent, is the Oberth-class, which disappeared from fleets after the Battle of Sector 001 (First Contact).
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What you think Starfleet believes in, and the actual combat performance of a vessel, are two completely different things. One is theoretical ideas, the other is experimental data.
Operation: Return. Battle of Chin'toka. Battle of Cardassia Prime. On and on, Miranda-class starships were: 1) consistently seen to be destroyed by a shot or two, and 2) never once seen dealing critical damage to any starship.
The USS Lantree, and other Miranda-class starships throughout TNG.
1) Consistently seen to be destroyed in one or two hits. 2) Never once seen dealing critical damage to any starship. Even the Constellation-class appears to have superior performance in tactical exercises.
Consistent, on-screen track record of being cannon fodder. The only starship that comes to mind that is more consistent, is the Oberth-class, which disappeared from fleets after the Battle of Sector 001 (First Contact).
Yes we have seen a lot of them easily destroyed. But like I said earlier we have seen that with other ships as well. Jem'Hadar attack ships we have seen destroyed as easily on occasion. I also remember a Breen ship being destroyed easily.
The Miranda has its purpose, but it is not to defeat enemy like the Borg and Undine. As far as it being Cannon Fodder in the series, Starfleet doesn't build cannon fodder, but will utilize all available ships to help with the battle. Tier 5 ships are supposed to be the ships that fight against the Borg and Undine. There is one main problem with the Miranda being a Tier 5 ship, its size. The Miranda is less than 1/3rd the size of the Galaxy. You can fit only so much technology into a ship and the size determines how much weapons, sensors, and other technology.
The Miranda has its purpose, but it is not to defeat enemy like the Borg and Undine. As far as it being Cannon Fodder in the series, Starfleet doesn't build cannon fodder, but will utilize all available ships to help with the battle. Tier 5 ships are supposed to be the ships that fight against the Borg and Undine. There is one main problem with the Miranda being a Tier 5 ship, its size. The Miranda is less than 1/3rd the size of the Galaxy. You can fit only so much technology into a ship and the size determines how much weapons, sensors, and other technology.
Don't forget that the Defiant class is smaller than the Miranda class and nearly every other T1-T4 Federation ship.
The Miranda has its purpose, but it is not to defeat enemy like the Borg and Undine. As far as it being Cannon Fodder in the series, Starfleet doesn't build cannon fodder, but will utilize all available ships to help with the battle. Tier 5 ships are supposed to be the ships that fight against the Borg and Undine. There is one main problem with the Miranda being a Tier 5 ship, its size. The Miranda is less than 1/3rd the size of the Galaxy. You can fit only so much technology into a ship and the size determines how much weapons, sensors, and other technology.
We have seen Miranda Class ships used to fight the Borg multiple times. USS Saratoga was a Miranda Class ship Sisko served on and it fought the Borg at Wolf 359. In Star Trek First Contact Miranda Class ship has been seen to fight against the Borg.
Yes Miranda is not that big but their are other tier 5 ships that are small like the B'Rel.
Don't forget that the Defiant class is smaller than the Miranda class and nearly every other T1-T4 Federation ship.
edit: And every T5 ship, for that matter.
The Defiant was specifically designed to be a fast, maneuverable, and powerful small ship to fight the Borg. The Miranda seems to be for Exploration so it has more sensors than the Defiant and other stuff that the Defiant excluded because they are non-combat features.
We have seen Miranda Class ships used to fight the Borg multiple times. USS Saratoga was a Miranda Class ship Sisko served on and it fought the Borg at Wolf 359. In Star Trek First Contact Miranda Class ship has been seen to fight against the Borg.
Yes Miranda is not that big but their are other tier 5 ships that are small like the B'Rel.
Sure the Miranda has been in fights with the Borg, but these fights were about calling every available ship to stop an enemy rather than just ships designed for battle or multi-purpose ships like the Galaxy. If a NX or Constitution was available, then Starfleet would have used those as well.
Aesthetics is not just about looks. In fact, I was not talking about the look of the ship at all in my post. The aesthetics I was talking about was changing the design every few years. Everything humans make has their designs change constantly. Cars, electronics, architecture, and tons of other stuff change over the years. Tons of people are appalled by what they wore and what hairstyle they used 20 years ago. This constant need for change is not necessarily evident in alien races. Attributing certain human values to aliens is ridiculous. So if a human would more likely design a new ship to accommodate the new technology while an alien race would fit the new technology into the old design with only minor changes to the actual design.
Aesthetics (noun)
1. Outward appearance: the way something looks, especially when considered in terms of how pleasing it is.
2. Idea of beauty: an idea of what is beautiful or artistic.
3. Study of art: the study of the rules and principles of art.
Like I said pretty is as pretty does. And don't forget that the Federation is made up mostly of non-Human races.
And there is precedent in real life Earth history that contradicts your aesthetics as an imperative argument. There have been many glaring cases of practicality and cost effectiveness winning out. As the old saying goes: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".
Ships have an effective design life. The shuttle had a design life for 30 years and likely went through numerous revisions to the design over the years. Eventually, it gets to the point where it can't keep up with the needs of the people using it and the new technology available. Sp even though Mirandas, Oberths, and Excelsiors were being commissioned in the 24th Century, they were approaching the end of their design life so they couldn't be improved as much as new ship designs that are at the start of their design life. Take a computer from 15 years ago and add new technology to it. There will be a noticeable benefit to the computer, but it won't have as much as an improvement to a computer from 3 years ago improved with today's technology.
We do not have any official final word on the design life of Federation starship designs, or even individual ships for that matter. All we really have is hints, such as La Forge's comments to Mr. Scott regarding the U.S.S. Jenolan, in The Next Generation episode Relics.. Or writings regarding the projected service life of the Galaxy class. But nothing has been written in stone. In fact, all evidence points to the 23rd Century designs being viable well into the late 24th Century.
The deal with modern, real life computers is another example. You can build a modern computer with a retro look that will do every thing a prettier machine will do. It's all about the underlying technology.
The Shuttle Program isn't a very good comparison. The STS was designed with a limited service window from the get-go. Cost cuts didn't help matters any, either. Besides, the Shuttle and a Federation Starship are two different animals, with starships being more rugged, reliable, and advanced because of the perils of galactic exploration and warfare in space. Therefore, longer lived.
So there are two possible situations, either the Constitution, NX, and Miranda have already been upgraded with current technology and all they reached is Tier 1 so a Tier 1 NX would completely destroy a TOS Constitution or upgrading these ships would just allow them to reach Tier 3 or Tier 4. There is no possible way that a Constitution, NX, or Miranda with current technology would be able to compete against a Tier 5 ship like the Sovereign, Prometheus, or Vesta and actually have Tier 5 versions of the Constitution, NX, and Miranda would throw out the last bit of Star Trek realism in this game. So we might as well have Tier 5 Phoenixes, Tier 5 Space Shuttles, Tier 5 16th Century Galleons, and Tier 5 Canoes.
I disagree. In fact, the Mirandas and Constitution refits in game are seriously undergunned when compared to the Reliant and Enterprise from the films (set in the late 23rd Century, at that). Hell, the Reliant was a friggin' beast compared to what we saw of the Mirandas in Deep Space Nine in terms of firepower demonstrated on screen.
The reasons they are low tiered doesn't have a damned thing to do with canon. It's an issue with the game's development. If anything, the two vessels should be higher tier when equipped with 25th Century technology. But they are not. Which is what I would like to see addressed by the development team.
The NX Replica (I bolded this because people seem to overlook this fact) is a fully modern, 25th Century vessel. Much like the case of a hypothetical retro themed computer I used in the previous example, it only looks like a 22nd Century NX. My opposition to it possibly being tier five is the fact that it was designed to be a low level escort for inexperienced captains.
I can also see TOS Constitution not being tier five. It fits the storyline of STO, where some of these old girls were put back into service out of necessity. So, the minimum upgrades it got for the game is just fine as is, from my POV.
And in any case, the Miranda and Constitution(refit) controversy doesn't address the issue of why later, but comparable vessel classes, such as the Centaur and Exeter are tier one and two vessels. Once again, an issue with how developers planned it, rather than any supposed shortcomings.
So, ultimately, there is no reason that the movie Constitution, Miranda, and Oberth are not available in tiers higher than one and two. The whole "CBS said no" deal, from my understanding, only applied to TOS Constitution. Not to the vessels that originated in the films featuring the original cast (if I am wrong, provide me a documented, reputable source so I can stand corrected).
We do not have any official final word on the design life of Federation starship designs, or even individual ships for that matter. All we really have is hints, such as La Forge's comments to Mr. Scott regarding the U.S.S. Jenolan, in The Next Generation episode Relics.. Or writings regarding the projected service life of the Galaxy class. But nothing has been written in stone. In fact, all evidence points to the 23rd Century designs being viable well into the late 24th Century.
The deal with modern, real life computers is another example. You can build a modern computer with a retro look that will do every thing a prettier machine will do. It's all about the underlying technology.
The Shuttle Program isn't a very good comparison. The STS was designed with a limited service window from the get-go. Cost cuts didn't help matters any, either. Besides, the Shuttle and a Federation Starship are two different animals, with starships being more rugged, reliable, and advanced because of the perils of galactic exploration and warfare in space. Therefore, longer lived.
Actually, we do. Three cases of outdated ships slated to the cutting block.
NX-01: Stated in the series finale to be decommissioned after only 10 - 15 years since its launch in 2151.
Enterprise NCC-1701 (Refit): Was going to be decommissioned after only ~twenty years in the service.
Enterprise NCC-1701-D (Galaxy-X class): Was slated to be placed in mothballs somewhere around 15 to 25 years in TNG's future (so, 2390 or something), before Admiral Riker saved it from the chopping block and had it refitted. In other words, 7 years + about 15 to 25 more years = 22 to 32 years in service.
The NX Replica (I bolded this because people seem to overlook this fact) is a fully modern, 25th Century vessel. Much like the case of a hypothetical retro themed computer I used in the previous example, it only looks like a 22nd Century NX.
And again, the Wright Brothers plane scenario. Go ahead and refit a Wright Brothers plane using the most modern materials, while keeping the design (shape) identical. See if it will perform on-par with the F-22. It won't, because the design is too old.
And in any case, the Miranda and Constitution(refit) controversy doesn't address the issue of why later, but comparable vessel classes, such as the Centaur and Exeter are tier one and two vessels. Once again, an issue with how developers planned it, rather than any supposed shortcomings.
Agreed. The Centaur and Exeter have no viable explanation as to why they, by themselves, have no Fleet variants.
So, ultimately, there is no reason that the movie Constitution, Miranda, and Oberth are not available in tiers higher than one and two.
Plenty of reasons. They aren't seen as effective starships in the Federation's largest war, the Dominion War. They are consistently and numerously seen as cannon fodder. And there is NO reason why Starfleet would choose to keep these vessels in retrofitted active service when they are simply outdated.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
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And again, the Wright Brothers plane scenario. Go ahead and refit a Wright Brothers plane using the most modern materials, while keeping the design (shape) identical. See if it will perform on-par with the F-22. It won't, because the design is too old.
This is a totally unfair comparison to starships. The Wright Brothers plane was not build for combat at all.
Back to this too old. Their are already ships at tier 5 that are as old as some that people want to have a tier 5 version.
This is a totally unfair comparison to starships. The Wright Brothers plane was not build for combat at all.
Back to this too old. Their are already ships at tier 5 that are as old as some that people want to have a tier 5 version.
I'm talking speed only. Still, take the P-12 and compare it to the F-22, if you want combat performance. Similar effect happens.
As for the topic we have already covered and moved on from, I refer you back to the previous page.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
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I'm talking speed only. Still, take the F-4 and compare it to the F-22, if you want combat performance. Similar effect happens.
As for the topic we have already covered and moved on from, I refer you back to the previous page.
The Wright Brothers Plane was not designed for speed,combat or anything other then just to fly. It is a totally unfair comparision to a Federation starship.
Yes you don't think Miranda should have a tier 5 with no valid reason except it is too old and is cannon fodder when their have been other ships that are much newer that have been destroyed as easily on occasions.
I am thinking you have something against either old things or these specific old things.
The Wright Brothers Plane was not designed for speed,combat or anything other then just to fly. It is a totally unfair comparision to a Federation starship.
It is quite fair. Both are flying craft, with the intent of flying. One does it better than the other. It's as simple as that.
Yes you don't think Miranda should have a tier 5 with no valid reason except it is too old and is cannon fodder when their have been other ships that are much newer that have been destroyed as easily on occasions.
Multiple ships have been destroyed because they have been disabled, TRIBBLE, rammed, sabotaged, or other attacks that don't reflect the vessel(s) at peak performance. The Miranda-class vessels in the Dominion War combat scenes were all at peak performance, and they got shot up very badly. Even the Reliant only needed two torpedo hits, and four phaser shots before it was severely crippled.
Both the Miranda and the Nebula (for comparison reasons, fill in your own 23rd century ship) classes were designed for exploration/science/combat. One does it better than the other. The exact same deal.
I am thinking you have something against either old things or these specific old things.
And I'm thinking that if you wish to analyse my character, do so in a different thread. We are here to discuss the "desire to pilot Tier 1/2 ships", not "desire to talk about a person's reasons for their opinions".
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
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Comments
It is unknown how much a Federation starship can be upgraded and still be a effective starship until the point comes that it is no longer effective.
In this very game the Excelsior has a tier 5 version that is as good as other Cruisers that had been designed and used in the later half of the 24th century. If the Excelsior can have a tier 5 then so should a Miranda class.
Having some missions that only allow lower tier ships would be cool and I would support it. It could even make them money by some people deciding to buy some of the lower tier C-Store ships to play those missions.
As far as the T5 Constitution is concerned, I don't think even holograms could be possible. That method would be considered as a circumvention of the CBS ban because T5 ships would be using the image and likeness of the Connie. It's likely that, for all legal purposes, it would be the same as implementing a T5 Connie, which is currently restricted.
Same can be asked to you...how do you know a *large portion* of the community would be excited to fly old tugs?
This is a Star Trek game right? Would you not think a lot of people who play the game are Star Trek fans? Would you not think a lot of them wants to fly a actual Star Trek ship from a show/movie rather then something that someone made just for the game?
Well we are quite some to say yes we would like.
Back to the topics : May be we can make holodeck mission taking place in the past? This would be a good rational to enforce the use of T1-3 ship in those mission.
Skanvak Drakken
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I would say the fact that a excelsior was still used to the late 24th century in tng and can be upgraded says the ship is pretty modular, unlike the connie which even with a major refit it might have not even been in use for much longer than half a century.
They can't make a T5 Constitution (TOS) because CBS won't allow it. Not sure if the same applies to the refit design (ST I - ST VI films).
Ok, 1st, There's NOTHING wrong with those of us that want this, there's something wrong, however, with being a jackass.
2>Go ahead, try and report it. You'll not get anywhere, especially if the guy or gal doing this, is not griefing, but is just trying to have fun/try something new. What ship do you use? I think I'll report you for using that, instead of what I want you to use. That little garbage can go both ways.
3> How about that ship that you want goes into the C-Store for 20M Zen, so you can get pissed on?
About the only thing you posted that I could agree on with, is I'd like to see some bugs fixed. Other than that, I think you're saying, "TRIBBLE on you, I don't want it, I shouldn't have to put up with it!" Little clue, there's other people in this game, and there's going to be a wide variety of tastes. I think the Galaxy, and any derivitive is garbage, yet I have to see them, and put up with them. Guess what? Just like in real life, what I want, is not really what everyone wants, pretty much everyone has a unique flavour in their ideas, and what they like (ie, their opinions).
Now, if you can put up some CONSTRUCTIVE ideas on why these should not be allowed, then by all means, do so, and I would listen (or read as more applicable) with an open mind. But you just pissing on what some others think might be fun, that is not harming your ability to play in any way, is just crass. And if you don't like the way this is worded, I really don't care, as you seemed to not care what others would think of how you insulted them.:mad:
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
I was basically ok with most of your post, up until the last bit, T5 Galleons? LOL but at least you did it in a humourous way.
But to use your analogy of, "Eventually, it gets to the point where it can't keep up with the needs of the people using it and the new technology available. Sp even though Mirandas, Oberths, and Excelsiors were being commissioned in the 24th Century, they were approaching the end of their design life so they couldn't be improved as much as new ship designs that are at the start of their design life. Take a computer from 15 years ago and add new technology to it. There will be a noticeable benefit to the computer, but it won't have as much as an improvement to a computer from 3 years ago improved with today's technology. ", pull everything from the PC case, and stick all new boards & ports init, and voila, you have a nice modern PC, that will meet & likely exceed your needs/wants. The same could be done with the "older" ships, I mean, it's technically done with a Kumari, the Klin do it with any BoP variant, and at least half their D-7 derivitave battlecruisers, Roms do it with various Warbirds? So how is it impossible to do the same, with Miranda/Constitution/etc etc? Your logic at this point does fail to explain why Starfleet is the ONLY organization that is incabale of taking 200+ year old ship designs, and making them T5/T6(Fleet) capable?
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
Kumari, D'kyr, Somraw, T'varo, K't'inga... all are T5 refits of ships which were in service before the NX class. Even in game, the NX available is specifically a modern ship built to look like the 22nd century original, rather than an old ship refitted. Given that 25th century design seems to have gone back to disdaining secondary hulls, and their relative size, there is no reason said NX replica could not match a Patrol Escort's performance (to quote a similarly sized, shaped ship).
So, in terms of the established game - other than CBS, how does an NX at T5 not fit?
Going to create a hypothetical scenario here.
The Wright Brothers' airplane (the first human aircraft, afaik).
Skip ahead to 2013. Some guy decides to create an authentic Wright Brothers' airplane using modern components. Same structure and identical look, but using composite materials, modern engines, etc.
Now, let's see how this replica airplane faces against an F-22 airplane.
I think we all know how this ends. The design of the Wright Brothers plane is simply too old to perform on the same level as the F-22, even though the WB plane has been refitted and built using 2013 technologies. The design is simply too old.
Same thing applies with the Miranda, Constitution, and NX classes. You can go ahead and recreate the ship. But the true effectiveness of the vessel is impaired, because the design is too old, despite the modern upgrades.
As for the other non-Federation 22nd century ships, they should not exist at all. Wipe them clean from the list of starships, because they break immersion and are also too old to be effective, despite the modern upgrades.
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And all that gets is a bunch of angry customers who bought the ship, congrats.
a much better scenario:
An old tank created using current tech vs a current tank: besides design and maybe a light disadvantage, they would likely be the same.
the real questions are about implementation. how feasible/efficient is it to recode the ships in the game to accomidate unlockable upgrades, and how best do you balance that value vs c-store ships?
if a endgame ship costs 2000 zen or roughly 250k dili, than upgrading your miranda or sabre (a t2 ship which has a fleet variant already :rolleyes:) maybe costs 2500-3000 zen in the long run, with tier refits every 10 levels.
the fleet modules will run you nearly 2000 zen or 20M ec as it is. seems rather equitable to me.
Why is A Miranda too old but not a Excelsior which has tier 5 ship? Why is Miranda too old but not the K'tinga which has a tier 5 ship? Why is the Miranda too old but not the B'Rel which has a tier 5 ship?
Just because a design is old does not mean it is not effective. It is a case by case basis with things. You can't say a Miranda falls into the not effective enough catagory it is only your opinion.
Change the costume so it's a different design, but the ship stats remain unchanged. For example, the Somraw can be slimmed down a bit, some Negh'Var-esque nacelles attached, and presto, a new-looking vessel.
And the whole point of the scenario I created was to show how there is a difference between a current design and a revitalized, but older, outdated, and infeasible design.
I agree with all of your examples. B'rels, K'tingas and Excelsiors were also shot up quite a bit during the Dominion War (and the K'tinga was not seen very often either). All three of these ships should be struck from the list, and a modernized costume created to replace it.
You are correct, age does not equal effectiveness. However, screen evidence is a show of effectiveness. It is shown on screen that the Miranda-class is cannon fodder, and was shot up repeatedly and consistently. I'd say, that's about how effective the ship is.
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Perhaps if the T2 Constitution had an operational lifespan much greater than 10 story missions (at most, fewer with DOFFing. I have no idea why low-Mark purples sell so high on the exchange when they're only useful for a couple hours of gameplay), people wouldn't miss it so much at T5.
Heck, I'd love to spend more time with all my T1-T4 ships, and there's certainly enough missions in to slow down the leveling curve to do it, even for non-Federation factions (got to 50 with my new Romulan before setting foot on DS9).
Lest I drift too much further from the topic, though, I definitely endorse adding separate lower-tier queues. As valoreah noted, the technology needed to implement T1-T2 queues would be the same technology needed to restrict the current STF missions to T4-T5 ships.
Sounds like an "everyone wins" option to me.
Long ago, dev interviews even mentioned the desire to have content that uses lower-tier ships at endgame, and the implementation of "default small craft" was the first step toward being able to set a default craft for each tier that will be automatically selected as the mission dictates.
Starfleet is not the type that believes in cannon fodder. They would not be using a Miranda class if it was not effective enough in combat. Yes we have seen them destroyed even easily but the Miranda is not the only ship from Star Trek that has been seen to be easily destroyed on occasion.
What you think Starfleet believes in, and the actual combat performance of a vessel, are two completely different things. One is theoretical ideas, the other is experimental data.
Operation: Return. Battle of Chin'toka. Battle of Cardassia Prime. On and on, Miranda-class starships were: 1) consistently seen to be destroyed by a shot or two, and 2) never once seen dealing critical damage to any starship.
The USS Lantree, and other Miranda-class starships throughout TNG.
1) Consistently seen to be destroyed in one or two hits. 2) Never once seen dealing critical damage to any starship. Even the Constellation-class appears to have superior performance in tactical exercises.
Consistent, on-screen track record of being cannon fodder. The only starship that comes to mind that is more consistent, is the Oberth-class, which disappeared from fleets after the Battle of Sector 001 (First Contact).
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Yes we have seen a lot of them easily destroyed. But like I said earlier we have seen that with other ships as well. Jem'Hadar attack ships we have seen destroyed as easily on occasion. I also remember a Breen ship being destroyed easily.
Don't forget that the Defiant class is smaller than the Miranda class and nearly every other T1-T4 Federation ship.
edit: And every T5 ship, for that matter.
We have seen Miranda Class ships used to fight the Borg multiple times. USS Saratoga was a Miranda Class ship Sisko served on and it fought the Borg at Wolf 359. In Star Trek First Contact Miranda Class ship has been seen to fight against the Borg.
Yes Miranda is not that big but their are other tier 5 ships that are small like the B'Rel.
The Defiant was specifically designed to be a fast, maneuverable, and powerful small ship to fight the Borg. The Miranda seems to be for Exploration so it has more sensors than the Defiant and other stuff that the Defiant excluded because they are non-combat features.
Sure the Miranda has been in fights with the Borg, but these fights were about calling every available ship to stop an enemy rather than just ships designed for battle or multi-purpose ships like the Galaxy. If a NX or Constitution was available, then Starfleet would have used those as well.
Aesthetics (noun)
1. Outward appearance: the way something looks, especially when considered in terms of how pleasing it is.
2. Idea of beauty: an idea of what is beautiful or artistic.
3. Study of art: the study of the rules and principles of art.
Like I said pretty is as pretty does. And don't forget that the Federation is made up mostly of non-Human races.
And there is precedent in real life Earth history that contradicts your aesthetics as an imperative argument. There have been many glaring cases of practicality and cost effectiveness winning out. As the old saying goes: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".
We do not have any official final word on the design life of Federation starship designs, or even individual ships for that matter. All we really have is hints, such as La Forge's comments to Mr. Scott regarding the U.S.S. Jenolan, in The Next Generation episode Relics.. Or writings regarding the projected service life of the Galaxy class. But nothing has been written in stone. In fact, all evidence points to the 23rd Century designs being viable well into the late 24th Century.
The deal with modern, real life computers is another example. You can build a modern computer with a retro look that will do every thing a prettier machine will do. It's all about the underlying technology.
The Shuttle Program isn't a very good comparison. The STS was designed with a limited service window from the get-go. Cost cuts didn't help matters any, either. Besides, the Shuttle and a Federation Starship are two different animals, with starships being more rugged, reliable, and advanced because of the perils of galactic exploration and warfare in space. Therefore, longer lived.
I disagree. In fact, the Mirandas and Constitution refits in game are seriously undergunned when compared to the Reliant and Enterprise from the films (set in the late 23rd Century, at that). Hell, the Reliant was a friggin' beast compared to what we saw of the Mirandas in Deep Space Nine in terms of firepower demonstrated on screen.
The reasons they are low tiered doesn't have a damned thing to do with canon. It's an issue with the game's development. If anything, the two vessels should be higher tier when equipped with 25th Century technology. But they are not. Which is what I would like to see addressed by the development team.
The NX Replica (I bolded this because people seem to overlook this fact) is a fully modern, 25th Century vessel. Much like the case of a hypothetical retro themed computer I used in the previous example, it only looks like a 22nd Century NX. My opposition to it possibly being tier five is the fact that it was designed to be a low level escort for inexperienced captains.
I can also see TOS Constitution not being tier five. It fits the storyline of STO, where some of these old girls were put back into service out of necessity. So, the minimum upgrades it got for the game is just fine as is, from my POV.
And in any case, the Miranda and Constitution(refit) controversy doesn't address the issue of why later, but comparable vessel classes, such as the Centaur and Exeter are tier one and two vessels. Once again, an issue with how developers planned it, rather than any supposed shortcomings.
So, ultimately, there is no reason that the movie Constitution, Miranda, and Oberth are not available in tiers higher than one and two. The whole "CBS said no" deal, from my understanding, only applied to TOS Constitution. Not to the vessels that originated in the films featuring the original cast (if I am wrong, provide me a documented, reputable source so I can stand corrected).
Actually, we do. Three cases of outdated ships slated to the cutting block.
NX-01: Stated in the series finale to be decommissioned after only 10 - 15 years since its launch in 2151.
Enterprise NCC-1701 (Refit): Was going to be decommissioned after only ~twenty years in the service.
Enterprise NCC-1701-D (Galaxy-X class): Was slated to be placed in mothballs somewhere around 15 to 25 years in TNG's future (so, 2390 or something), before Admiral Riker saved it from the chopping block and had it refitted. In other words, 7 years + about 15 to 25 more years = 22 to 32 years in service.
And again, the Wright Brothers plane scenario. Go ahead and refit a Wright Brothers plane using the most modern materials, while keeping the design (shape) identical. See if it will perform on-par with the F-22. It won't, because the design is too old.
Agreed. The Centaur and Exeter have no viable explanation as to why they, by themselves, have no Fleet variants.
Plenty of reasons. They aren't seen as effective starships in the Federation's largest war, the Dominion War. They are consistently and numerously seen as cannon fodder. And there is NO reason why Starfleet would choose to keep these vessels in retrofitted active service when they are simply outdated.
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This is a totally unfair comparison to starships. The Wright Brothers plane was not build for combat at all.
Back to this too old. Their are already ships at tier 5 that are as old as some that people want to have a tier 5 version.
I'm talking speed only. Still, take the P-12 and compare it to the F-22, if you want combat performance. Similar effect happens.
As for the topic we have already covered and moved on from, I refer you back to the previous page.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
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The Wright Brothers Plane was not designed for speed,combat or anything other then just to fly. It is a totally unfair comparision to a Federation starship.
Yes you don't think Miranda should have a tier 5 with no valid reason except it is too old and is cannon fodder when their have been other ships that are much newer that have been destroyed as easily on occasions.
I am thinking you have something against either old things or these specific old things.
Multiple ships have been destroyed because they have been disabled, TRIBBLE, rammed, sabotaged, or other attacks that don't reflect the vessel(s) at peak performance. The Miranda-class vessels in the Dominion War combat scenes were all at peak performance, and they got shot up very badly. Even the Reliant only needed two torpedo hits, and four phaser shots before it was severely crippled.
Both the Miranda and the Nebula (for comparison reasons, fill in your own 23rd century ship) classes were designed for exploration/science/combat. One does it better than the other. The exact same deal.
And I'm thinking that if you wish to analyse my character, do so in a different thread. We are here to discuss the "desire to pilot Tier 1/2 ships", not "desire to talk about a person's reasons for their opinions".
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