Have to agree with the original post.. I would much rather be using something that resembles a ship from the films or the TV series rather than some of these streamlined un immersive monstrositys.
Why dont they use a similar method to SWTOR where its the equipment and consoles that determine the lvl and the skin adjusts with it.
IMHO, it doesn't really matter what 3D textured model or skin a ship has, it is just an artistic representation. Every single ship in this game is just an executable construct. We can place modules into that construct to generate certain types of numbers which equal a graphic. Emination points are associated with X,Y,Z coordinates to give the illusion that the 3d artwork is a starship shooting blazing death and destruction from a weapons port. It doesn't matter at all if the artwork is that on a Miranda, a Constitution, Jupiter, Oddyssey, Vorcha or mogai. It's just a skin. The only, and I mean ONLY, thing preventing use of T1 or whatever ship skins is a paper contract and someone's sense of control.
Player and forumite formerly known as FEELTHETHUNDER
If it were up to me, I would give out a Free T5 Connie with the same stats as the Bug and moves like the Corvette just to represent THE ship without which all others would not be.
The Miranda has its purpose, but it is not to defeat enemy like the Borg and Undine. As far as it being Cannon Fodder in the series, Starfleet doesn't build cannon fodder, but will utilize all available ships to help with the battle. Tier 5 ships are supposed to be the ships that fight against the Borg and Undine. There is one main problem with the Miranda being a Tier 5 ship, its size. The Miranda is less than 1/3rd the size of the Galaxy. You can fit only so much technology into a ship and the size determines how much weapons, sensors, and other technology.
One problem with that, and it's one technically I addressed in an earlier post:
How the hell do the Klin do it with BoP's, and Rom's do it with the smaller Warbirds, then?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
I would have to agree. Seems every time a thread like this comes up it de-rails into a pointless debate on the usefulness of every ship in the game.
Perhaps it's not always about usefulness? Maybe sometimes certain players like myself would love the opportunity to get back into my technically inferior ship with a group of others to bash Borg because it sounds fun.
I never get people who are quick to slam ideas down for the sake of 'canon' or 'realism' - especially in a game that routinely bends or even breaks the rules in both areas for improved gameplay or earning potential.
What? So I can't have a T5 Fleet Miranda but I can buy a shiny new Scimitar complete with illegal weaponry? To quote a popular American phrase 'go figure'.
I know where you're coming from. I myself would enjoy flying my NX-class starship into every combat scenario. I also realize the ship would be pulverized in an Elite STF, which is why I don't fly it in there.
When people don't like the game's balance, and insist on having their special little ship bumped up to the competitive level of ships from a newer era, that is what really bugs me. The reason people fly the newer era ships is because they offer choices for players to make when in combat, whether it be console choices, boff choices, weapon choices, aesthetic choices, etc. And the reason they fly their particular ship is because the choice that they view as most important is in that one ship.
The T1 ships offer minimal choices for players, and mainly, it's the aesthetic choice that excites these players. Again, nothing wrong with that. But now, players are asking, DEMANDING for a money-making company to set aside time from their busy schedule to fancy their ship and make it have all of the choices THEY want.
THAT is what is wrong here. Not speaking specifically to anyone in particular, but who do they think they are? From what it looks like, Cryptic has chosen to create new vessels like the Star Cruiser, Odyssey, Regent, and others, and chosen to leave the NX, Miranda, Connie, and other ships behind. That is their choice. This is their game.
Canon and realism are things that Cryptic themselves have tried to uphold (but fail miserably, time and again). For example, Connie is T1, TMP Connie is T2, Excelsior (non-retrofit) is T3, Ambassador is T3.5, Galaxy is T4, Sovereign is T5, Odyssey is T5.5. Yes, there are retrofits, but the non-retrofitted vessels are like this.
As for the Scimitar thalaron weapon, I don't condone it, and would rather have that weapon removed asap. But I know I don't have the right to change something that has nothing to do with me, and that will never be changed. I can only work to keep the current state of the game, and oppose the introduction of lower-tiered ships (due to selfish reasons) into the T5 or fleet category.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
I really like the idea of having a T1-2 stf option for more reward.
Is there anything wrong with bringing a T1-2 in stf now, other than just bad form?
A "Low Tier Only" STF would be interesting, although I should think the villains should be changed from Borg to another species. Cardassian, perhaps.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
Wow I do not know what to say and how you can come to that conclusion.
It's called "twisting words", (*Sigh*).
But as far as that person's comparison, an Wright brother's plane, vs an F-22, that's just a clueless example. Let's redo this one shall we? (*Provided for the sake of argument, that we had all the tech to get this done, like a Miranda retrofit would have available...
Ok, take that desing, make it all out of composites, instead of wood & fabric. Redesign the internals so there is a jet exhaust at the end, and a reasonably powerful jet engine. For the cockpit, use fully modern avionics, as well, canopy the thing, so when you go above 200mph, you're not yanking the poor pilot apart. Add in a radar (Both air to air, as well as air to surface capable. (And there is more than enough room in the thing to do that.) Also, fit some hardpoints onto the wings, for various munitions. There would also be room for a small cannon on the nose, maybe a scaled down M61A1 (instead of a 6=bbl version, maybe something similar to a Soviet version, like a 2 or 3-bbl version. Less rate of fire, but much smaller.) Now, if all the engineering is done right, this wiould be a VERY combat worthy plane. Would it tackle all of the roles an F-2 would? Hell no. But it would be far quicker, definately more manueverable, and have inherent stealth capabilities, due to the almost nonexistence of radar reflective materiels used in it's construction. So, in certain circumstances, it would actually OUTPERFORM the F-22 in some roles.
So, all in all, a "refit" Wright Brother's plane COULD be an excellent low-speed, high agility attack plane.
Now, the cost effectiveness is another story, in this case, it's probably not worth it, eh? But as regards to a Miranda (or other TOS/pre-TOS ship refits), they've already done much of the "research & development" needed to make it workable, with the Kumari, D'Khyr, etc etc, as well as the Klin showing that it's extremely viable, with their D-7 derivatives, variant BoP's, the the Rihan did so, with the T-Varo, the Mogai retrofits, the Dhelan Warbird retrofits, etc etc. So again, how come Starfleet, is the ONLY organization, that in your opinion, that is incapable of refitting some of the older, smaller ships? (And if you want to deal in size, hell, get rid of ALL frickin fleet and refit escorts, size-wise, there's no way they could keep up with even a TOS Constitution, in weaponry). And please, only a well-thought out response to this.....:D:D:cool:
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
I can only work to keep the current state of the game, and oppose the introduction of lower-tiered ships (due to selfish reasons) into the T5 or fleet category.
Ummm, who is being selfish? Sounds like you've gotten what you wanted, so TRIBBLE everyone else. Correct me if I'm wrong, and this isn't meant to be a personal attack on you, but it sounds like you've done one on others. And btw, it's also called "freedom of expression". Just as you have the right to your opinion, and to express it, others have the right to theirs, so in you're own words, Who in the hell do you think you are?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
"But now, players are asking, DEMANDING for a money-making company to set aside time from their busy schedule to fancy their ship and make it have all of the choices THEY want."
Those are the selfish people. Please read posts carefully.
Sounds like you've gotten what you wanted, so TRIBBLE everyone else. Correct me if I'm wrong, and this isn't meant to be a personal attack on you, but it sounds like you've done one on others. And btw, it's also called "freedom of expression". Just as you have the right to your opinion, and to express it, others have the right to theirs, so in you're own words, Who in the hell do you think you are?
I've only "gotten what I wanted" when this game closes its doors for good, and no T5 NX, Connie, or Miranda exists.
Absolutely, freedom of expression, I agree wholeheartedly. It's how people express themselves that get others ticked off. "Cryptic is OBLIGED to make a T5 Connie because it's an iconic ship!" are the kind of posts that trigger community backlash. Not saying every pro-Connie person says this, but that's just a general example of someone who is selfishly demanding a ship from a company that makes a Multiplayer game (emphasis on Multi-player, not single-player).
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
One problem with that, and it's one technically I addressed in an earlier post:
How the hell do the Klin do it with BoP's, and Rom's do it with the smaller Warbirds, then?
One simple word, specialization. Smaller Warbirds and Bird of Preys focus on being fast, maneuverable, and having a good amount of firepower. Anything that does not deal with strike fast and strike hard is not included on those ships. The Miranda would include various luxuries that would never exist on a smaller Warbird or Bird of Prey. Also the Miranda would include various features that are helpful in exploration and assisting other people, but useless in combat. Basically, the Miranda is a Jack of all Trades like most Federation ships while the smaller Warbirds and Bird of Preys specialize in combat.
One simple word, specialization. Smaller Warbirds and Bird of Preys focus on being fast, maneuverable, and having a good amount of firepower. Anything that does not deal with strike fast and strike hard is not included on those ships. The Miranda would include various luxuries that would never exist on a smaller Warbird or Bird of Prey. Also the Miranda would include various features that are helpful in exploration and assisting other people, but useless in combat. Basically, the Miranda is a Jack of all Trades like most Federation ships while the smaller Warbirds and Bird of Preys specialize in combat.
Still doesn't answer how they can upgrade the hull to be tougher, and have more weapons compared to the lower tier BoP's. And your reply doesn't even take into account the Rom Warbirds, of similar size either, who have lower power, and a cloaking device (battle cloak at that), yet still manage to stuff MORE weaponry, along with that revamped hull, into a similar size package, to the lower tier versions. So again, you're telling me Starfleet is too inept to be able to revamp the Miranda (along with other cruisers, escorts, and sci ships in the lower tiers), to be able to produce retrofit, and Fleet refit versions? If so, what's your rationale?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
"But now, players are asking, DEMANDING for a money-making company to set aside time from their busy schedule to fancy their ship and make it have all of the choices THEY want."
Those are the selfish people. Please read posts carefully.
I've only "gotten what I wanted" when this game closes its doors for good, and no T5 NX, Connie, or Miranda exists.
Absolutely, freedom of expression, I agree wholeheartedly. It's how people express themselves that get others ticked off. "Cryptic is OBLIGED to make a T5 Connie because it's an iconic ship!" are the kind of posts that trigger community backlash. Not saying every pro-Connie person says this, but that's just a general example of someone who is selfishly demanding a ship from a company that makes a Multiplayer game (emphasis on Multi-player, not single-player).
Ok, well first off, this whole thread was started about making new queues possible, for ppl wanting to run lower tier ships, NOT necessarily making the higher tier ships. And I don't think there's anything wrong with stating your wish, to have certain ships "redone", to have them in the higher tiers, as well as the original versions in the lower tiers. And I have read all the posts in this thread pretty well, as it's one that interests me. Nowhere has anyone "demanded" anything of Cryptic. Quite the reverse, other than you, and a few others, who are ADAMANT about this not being allowed (either the queue idea, OR the Refit versions of older ships), and have actually been quite rude about it. So again, it kind of comes off as a TRIBBLE you to everyone who wnats something different. And as far as your"
I've only "gotten what I wanted" when this game closes its doors for good, and no T5 NX, Connie, or Miranda exists.", that's about the height of rudeness to others, and as well, if you hate this game SOOOO much, and the companies producing it, I'm honestly puzzled as to why you're on the forums, and playing the game. If I despised something that much, I wouldna be anywhere near using that companies product(s).
On a final note, as far as this being a "multi-player game", it's only as multi-player as you really want it to be. And for you to have the idea, that just because their are multiple users at the same time, means that everyone has to interact with everyone else, is just arrogance of the highest degree. Some people are naturally shy, and may prefer a solo, or a small group experience. Others may just want that solo experience. Others may get a huge rush out of being in a huge group. The benefits to having a single AND multi-player types of experiences available in the game, means, you can play how you wish, within the rules of the game. There is nothing that states, , "You MUST be willing to accept large amounts of people at all times in your gaming experience, here at STO." In fact, the game kind of goes out of it's way, to let a person know, that if you want to stay off by yourself, you can. If you want to play with others, you can. Hmmm, freedom of ability to play how one wishes.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
"But now, players are asking, DEMANDING for a money-making company to set aside time from their busy schedule to fancy their ship and make it have all of the choices THEY want."
Those are the selfish people. Please read posts carefully.
I've made some pretty clear examples in my posts on how to utilize the c-store to make such an endeavor profitable while expanding upon content that is already deployed, to create more variety.
It has potential to create value both 'aesthetically' for the player and 'monetarily' for the company. PWE chooses to utilize a poor and overdone 'carrot and stick' micro-transaction which renders the majority of their content obsolete whenever the 'new hotness' drops.
Emotionalism is fine, but its not enough of an argument for or against. Don't worry so much about the straw men.
Or add hologram costumes to the GPL store. The problem is that the NX, Constitution, and Miranda just don't belong in the 25th Century being piloted by Vice Admirals. Having a Tier 5 ship that is using a Constitution Hologram Costume to look like a ship about 200 years old makes sense in the 25th Century.
I'm sorry... but should any ships be piloted by Vice Admirals?
Ok, well first off, this whole thread was started about making new queues possible, for ppl wanting to run lower tier ships, NOT necessarily making the higher tier ships. And I don't think there's anything wrong with stating your wish, to have certain ships "redone", to have them in the higher tiers, as well as the original versions in the lower tiers.
Let's flip the problem on its head: Most people want a T5 Miranda/NX/1701 because they want to be able to bring the thing into an STF/PvE queue without bothering others.
Instead of telling them to "do it in your own queue" here's a suggestion: create a "kirk-STF" queue. Essentially, an elite STF that restrict player to T1/T2 ships in public queue. For incentive, it should have even more rewards then your eSTF - after all, if they can do eSTF in a T2 ship, then they are pro, and deserve extra rewards.
Of course, in order for that to work, the actual level's difficulty must not change.
Thoughts? I am certain CBS did not say no to having a T2 ship fighting borgs.
True, but then look at the other posters in the first page alone:
I would still like a fleet Constitution, Enterprise, and Miranda classes of ships. However, your idea does have merit, and I think it would be a ton of fun.
I would much prefer it if they got rid of the whole "levels" versions of the ships and instead made every single ship available from 1 to 50
It is unrealistic to have very, very old ships rebuilt using modern components and placed in a category with much newer designs. That's the whole point of the Wright Brothers' plane example. No matter what you choose to build the ship with, because the design is so old, it won't hold up to supersonic speed like the Concorde, or be as nimble as the latest fighter jets. It just can't do it.
Same thing applies here. The design is simply too old. Warp geometry theory has undoubtedly progressed since 2151, and no matter how you adapt, a ship built around newer understanding of principles WILL exceed the performance of an older design, because it's limited by its outdated design.
Nowhere has anyone "demanded" anything of Cryptic. Quite the reverse, other than you, and a few others, who are ADAMANT about this not being allowed (either the queue idea, OR the Refit versions of older ships), and have actually been quite rude about it. So again, it kind of comes off as a TRIBBLE you to everyone who wnats something different.
But I do think it's a bit insulting to say the Constitution is such a bad design it couldn't possibly be upgraded to a 25th century standard when all these other ships can.
From this thread alone.
This thread isn't the only thread that covers the topic of old T1 ships being moved up to T5, and there are some very passionate pro-Connie/NX/Miranda forum users all over the forums.
Why not just explain it with building new Miranda Class ships and using the latest technology to make it strong as other ships. Instead of designers spending so much time designing new models just use existing ones. I do not see why their can't be a tier 5 Miranda especially when their is tier 5 Excelsior.
Because I want it, I'm paying and I want to be happy ! I don't want to pay for some I don't want and I'm sure not paying for you to be happy .
Tier 5 connie fans, don't apologize, don't act like this is an illogical desire, we have every right to ask for these two ships, keep the pressure on.
Yes, people in the forums have demanded or otherwise believe themselves entitled to a T5-ized version of their favourite starship. True, some members of the opposition have been rude about it, and I don't agree with how they phrased their thoughts. But the point remains, that there are people out there who believe themselves entitled and demand something irrespective of the repercussions from such a change.
And as far as your "I've only "gotten what I wanted" when this game closes its doors for good, and no T5 NX, Connie, or Miranda exists.", that's about the height of rudeness to others, and as well, if you hate this game SOOOO much, and the companies producing it, I'm honestly puzzled as to why you're on the forums, and playing the game. If I despised something that much, I wouldna be anywhere near using that companies product(s).
Perhaps I phrased my point in an unclear manner.
I personally want to keep as much canon and realism in STO as possible.
I know that if a ship is added to the T5 list which shouldn't be there, it will not be removed from the T5 category (same applies with fleet ships). So I can't change that.
What I can change is the advocation for other low level T1 starships from entering the T5 or fleet category. That is something I can pressure against. Failure of this goal is the inclusion of Miranda, Connie or NX classes into the T5 category.
Therefore, I only succeed when it is certain that neither of the above three starships ever make it into the T5/fleet category, and that time is when the game ends, since there will be no more changes once the game has closed its doors.
It is not my intention or motive to anger people with my beliefs. But that is what I believe, and I cannot change that. I am not forcing my beliefs on other people, or preaching them adamantly. I merely state what I believe when people post of the forums, and back it up with logic, evidence, or anything else that may be required in a discussion.
I also have the innate obligation to correct what is incorrect. Yes, that sounds arrogant. I won't divulge my life experiences, but all I will say is, that trait of mine cannot be changed or halted. It is also what I believe in.
I don't hate the company. I don't agree with their business decisions, and like most of the pro-Connie fans, I too believe one ship should be above all others - the Galaxy-class. But I'm also a realist, and I've woken up and faced facts, that the Galaxy will never be what I want it to believe. So, rather than be an arrogant and selfish person, I chose to accept it.
People who don't accept what the game's balance is currently, are arrogant and selfish. All they think about is themselves. They don't think about the ripple effects from a new ship in the category. How that affects team based play. How that affects the influx of STF queued people. How that affects balance in PvP. How that changes the image of the game. How that affects future starships who will be joining the T5 category.
It's like eco-awareness. People like the passionate pro-Connie fans are the industries polluting the planet, and the calm anti-Connie fans are the Green Earth movement, reminding them of what the repercussions of their influences are.
On a final note, as far as this being a "multi-player game", it's only as multi-player as you really want it to be. And for you to have the idea, that just because their are multiple users at the same time, means that everyone has to interact with everyone else, is just arrogance of the highest degree. Some people are naturally shy, and may prefer a solo, or a small group experience. Others may just want that solo experience. Others may get a huge rush out of being in a huge group. The benefits to having a single AND multi-player types of experiences available in the game, means, you can play how you wish, within the rules of the game. There is nothing that states, , "You MUST be willing to accept large amounts of people at all times in your gaming experience, here at STO." In fact, the game kind of goes out of it's way, to let a person know, that if you want to stay off by yourself, you can. If you want to play with others, you can. Hmmm, freedom of ability to play how one wishes.
I understand what you're getting at. However, although solo play is something that I understand (I'm an avid Bridge Commander single player person myself), I also understand that the effects of adding one ship do not just affect the few people who want that ship. Their interactions with other people or even with the game will change a lot of the balance currently existing. They buy a T5 Miranda, which means they need to outfit it, meaning they need better gear, either from the Exchange (social interaction), or from grinding through the Reputation Systems (team based play). Either way, that ship will be influencing the game and all of its occupants. Apply it to PvP as well. People like myself have invested a lot of ingame resources, money and time into one or two particular ships. Now watch out, here comes another ship that can perform better than a much newer ship that people have invested in!
Ripple effect, Cause and effect, repercussions. Food for thought.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
Still doesn't answer how they can upgrade the hull to be tougher, and have more weapons compared to the lower tier BoP's. And your reply doesn't even take into account the Rom Warbirds, of similar size either, who have lower power, and a cloaking device (battle cloak at that), yet still manage to stuff MORE weaponry, along with that revamped hull, into a similar size package, to the lower tier versions. So again, you're telling me Starfleet is too inept to be able to revamp the Miranda (along with other cruisers, escorts, and sci ships in the lower tiers), to be able to produce retrofit, and Fleet refit versions? If so, what's your rationale?
Tier 1 ship is utilizing old technology while Tier 5 is utilizing the latest technology. Why give new ships to inexperienced Captains? The Miranda has a bunch of room taken up by non-combat equipment and luxury items so even though the Miranda and a Romulan ship are the same size, they don't have the same amount of room for combat systems. So an upgraded Miranda would never have the same amount of combat potential as similar sized Romulan and Klingon ships due to it being made not just for combat. This is why the Defiant is a Tier 4 and 5.5 ship. It is about the same size as the Miranda, but it focuses primarily on combat. If the non-combat and luxury features of the Miranda were removed, then it could fight as well as the Defiant, but it would no longer be the Miranda.
Starfleet is not too inept, it is just that refitting the Miranda would only make it to Tier 3 or Tier 4. Also Starfleet is in the habit of sending off their best ships off into combat and not ships that would likely get blown up. A refitted ship is not as good as a newly designed ship using the latest technology. Making new ships is a better use of Starfleet's time than refitting old ships for battle.
It is unrealistic to have very, very old ships rebuilt using modern components and placed in a category with much newer designs. That's the whole point of the Wright Brothers' plane example. No matter what you choose to build the ship with, because the design is so old, it won't hold up to supersonic speed like the Concorde, or be as nimble as the latest fighter jets. It just can't do it.
Same thing applies here. The design is simply too old. Warp geometry theory has undoubtedly progressed since 2151, and no matter how you adapt, a ship built around newer understanding of principles WILL exceed the performance of an older design, because it's limited by its outdated design.
People who don't accept what the game's balance is currently, are arrogant and selfish. All they think about is themselves. They don't think about the ripple effects from a new ship in the category. How that affects team based play. How that affects the influx of STF queued people. How that affects balance in PvP. How that changes the image of the game. How that affects future starships who will be joining the T5 category.
It's like eco-awareness. People like the passionate pro-Connie fans are the industries polluting the planet, and the calm anti-Connie fans are the Green Earth movement, reminding them of what the repercussions of their influences are.
No it is not unrealistic. It has been done in Star Trek itself with the Excelsior Class USS Lakota against the USS Defiant.
Using the Wright Brothers plane and comparing it to a Miranda as being too old is simply opinion. We do not have any idea what limits a Miranda class has with use from futuristic technology that does not exist. What we do know is in Star Trek they can upgrade old ships to become as powerful as a more modern design like aforementioned Lakota vs. Defiant.
Wow pretty insulting calling people arrogant and selfish because they don't like the way the game has things balanced. I guess everyone in the world is arrogant and selfish because they don't like how the real world is. That would include people who are trying to make the world a better place in a similar way to how people are trying voice their opinion in how to make the game more appealing for actual Star Trek fans who want to be reminded of this being a Star Trek game more.
Making some of the ships from actual Star Trek shows and movies become better in the game will not make team games and PvP all of a sudden go so out of balance that it ruins the game. The perception of the game is already messed up so much with Starfleet Officers flying Tholian ships all over the place instead of actual Starfleet ships. It would make a lot more sense to see Miranda class ships commanded by Starfleet officers.
Again another insult from you. People love the Constitution class and don't deserve to be compared to people who are destroying the planet by polluting it and those who are against it like YOU to be the savior.
Edit: I have still yet to hear a valid reason for no tier 5 Miranda from you when we know that Starfleet can make old ships powerful enough to give a lot of trouble to newer Starfleet ships including a unoffical warship in addition to this very game having old ships at tier 5.
stardestroyer01 shouldn't even have to be making this argument to begin with, I thank him for it, and ask him to continue on! Star Trek comes in several distinct flavors we all know this. Could never be merged into one single server.. butt.. there are solutions that have been clearly pointed out.
Chancllor J'mpok:
ARM DS9 - PREPARE FOR BATTLE
=end of message=
Lyndon Brewer: 20% chance to capture enemy ship for 60 seconds on successful use of boarding party.
I have been seeing these topic pop up a lot and they always end with someone screaming that the idea is stupid and the person who thought of it is stupid (and one person saying that if they saw a person playing a T1 or 2 ship in an STF, they would report them). Others argue that's it canonically impossible for it to happen. And for those who say it's impossible because there would be no room on the ship for the new tech, look at the Chimera; that ship's Phaser Lotus mode must take up 3/4 of the ship and yet it has room for other weapons, consoles AND crew!
I ask this: what does it matter? This is a GAME! What does it matter that someone wants to fly an older ship/want a fleet version of said ship? It's not affecting you in any way. No one complains when someone goes into a CoD match with the starting equipment just because they like it. No one complains when someone races online in a Spoon Civic against a Bugatti Vayron. There will always be people who like the older or oddball stuff either for nostalgia or because it holds a special place in their hearts.
I have personally been in an eSFT with a guy flying the Exeter with all top notch equipment and borg set, and looking back, he did quite well for it.
Star Trek Online is supposed to be about bringing many kinds of people together to have fun in their favorite fandom, not attack each other for their like/dislikes. There should be no problem for someone if they wanna play with the older stuff and any one who attack them for such should really look within themselves and ask if they are a true Star Trek fan.
Besides, if anything, I would LOVE to see the Enterprise-J playable at some point (maybe through another time travel event or something).
"Suffer the little ones, lest they rise up and beat you senseless." Druid's Call, from Magic: The Gathering
And for those who say it's impossible because there would be no room on the ship for the new tech, look at the Chimera; that ship's Phaser Lotus mode must take up 3/4 of the ship and yet it has room for other weapons, consoles AND crew!
Obviously the Chimera is using TARDIS technology to accomplish this. The Chimera is a not a canon ship so there is no canon on what it should be like. The Miranda, NX, and Constitution are all canon ships and featured extensively so it breaks immersion when a NX could go up against a Sovereign and win. And if we break immersion on canon ships, then what is stopping people from asking for Tier 5 versions of the Phoenix and DY-100?
This is going to be quite long so I color-alternated the quotes.
True, but then look at the other posters in the first page alone:
It is unrealistic to have very, very old ships rebuilt using modern components and placed in a category with much newer designs. That's the whole point of the Wright Brothers' plane example. No matter what you choose to build the ship with, because the design is so old, it won't hold up to supersonic speed like the Concorde, or be as nimble as the latest fighter jets. It just can't do it.
Same thing applies here. The design is simply too old. Warp geometry theory has undoubtedly progressed since 2151, and no matter how you adapt, a ship built around newer understanding of principles WILL exceed the performance of an older design, because it's limited by its outdated design.
From this thread alone.
This thread isn't the only thread that covers the topic of old T1 ships being moved up to T5, and there are some very passionate pro-Connie/NX/Miranda forum users all over the forums.
Yes, people in the forums have demanded or otherwise believe themselves entitled to a T5-ized version of their favourite starship. True, some members of the opposition have been rude about it, and I don't agree with how they phrased their thoughts. But the point remains, that there are people out there who believe themselves entitled and demand something irrespective of the repercussions from such a change.
Perhaps I phrased my point in an unclear manner.
I personally want to keep as much canon and realism in STO as possible.
I know that if a ship is added to the T5 list which shouldn't be there, it will not be removed from the T5 category (same applies with fleet ships). So I can't change that.
What I can change is the advocation for other low level T1 starships from entering the T5 or fleet category. That is something I can pressure against. Failure of this goal is the inclusion of Miranda, Connie or NX classes into the T5 category.
Therefore, I only succeed when it is certain that neither of the above three starships ever make it into the T5/fleet category, and that time is when the game ends, since there will be no more changes once the game has closed its doors.
It is not my intention or motive to anger people with my beliefs. But that is what I believe, and I cannot change that. I am not forcing my beliefs on other people, or preaching them adamantly. I merely state what I believe when people post of the forums, and back it up with logic, evidence, or anything else that may be required in a discussion.
I also have the innate obligation to correct what is incorrect. Yes, that sounds arrogant. I won't divulge my life experiences, but all I will say is, that trait of mine cannot be changed or halted. It is also what I believe in.
I don't hate the company. I don't agree with their business decisions, and like most of the pro-Connie fans, I too believe one ship should be above all others - the Galaxy-class. But I'm also a realist, and I've woken up and faced facts, that the Galaxy will never be what I want it to believe. So, rather than be an arrogant and selfish person, I chose to accept it.
People who don't accept what the game's balance is currently, are arrogant and selfish. All they think about is themselves. They don't think about the ripple effects from a new ship in the category. How that affects team based play. How that affects the influx of STF queued people. How that affects balance in PvP. How that changes the image of the game. How that affects future starships who will be joining the T5 category.
It's like eco-awareness. People like the passionate pro-Connie fans are the industries polluting the planet, and the calm anti-Connie fans are the Green Earth movement, reminding them of what the repercussions of their influences are.
I understand what you're getting at. However, although solo play is something that I understand (I'm an avid Bridge Commander single player person myself), I also understand that the effects of adding one ship do not just affect the few people who want that ship. Their interactions with other people or even with the game will change a lot of the balance currently existing. They buy a T5 Miranda, which means they need to outfit it, meaning they need better gear, either from the Exchange (social interaction), or from grinding through the Reputation Systems (team based play). Either way, that ship will be influencing the game and all of its occupants. Apply it to PvP as well. People like myself have invested a lot of ingame resources, money and time into one or two particular ships. Now watch out, here comes another ship that can perform better than a much newer ship that people have invested in!
Ripple effect, Cause and effect, repercussions. Food for thought.
Ok, now at least, this post from you, for the most part I can respect, and I do note, that you've basically apologized for any insults that may have come out from past posts, and I appreciate that.
The only thing I didn't like, was the fact that you likened TOS fans to eco-destroyers, and pro-newer only ship lovers to "green" & responsible people. I hardly think that comparison applies. That's like saying if you want a pizza, in a mexican restaurant, you're destroying the planet.
But As far as you're "ripple effect" ANY ship, that is newly purchased (through any means), will cause that, so that is a neither here nor there. On your argument, that a Miranda exceeding a "top-of-the-line" ship will have repercussions. I could agree with there, if it were not for the fact that they've already done that, with Kumari, warbird variants, BoP variants, D-7 battle-cruiser variants, etc etc. And for your argument on "Starfleet not sending older ships, but instead sending newer ships, that's illogical on the face of it. The fact that they exist in the tiers they do, screams, "We're sending out older ships", and if the game didn't "scale to the characters level" there technically would be no degree of certainty that those T1-4 ships would even meet stuff they would theoretically be capable of handling.
So, overall, I have to continue to disagree with you, that these older T-1/2, and even for those that like some T3 ships (which by the way, a LOT of those have fleet equivalents, including your Galaxy class, that you expressed admiration for), I have very little problems with seeing those made into Fleet ships. (Or even C-Store retrofits such as some other ships already have, which would cheapen out the module cost for the Fleet refit versions)
But overall, I do say, I like the turn that your arguments have taken, they are more reasoned, and more of a "This is what I feel, and think discussion flavour", rather than the argumentative, insulting flavour your earlier posts had. On this note, it would be enjoyable to continue discussing this with you, even if it all ends up in a "Agree to disagree" type of thing
(*Bows*)
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
Actually, we do. Three cases of outdated ships slated to the cutting block.
NX-01: Stated in the series finale to be decommissioned after only 10 - 15 years since its launch in 2151.
Enterprise NCC-1701 (Refit): Was going to be decommissioned after only ~twenty years in the service.
Enterprise NCC-1701-D (Galaxy-X class): Was slated to be placed in mothballs somewhere around 15 to 25 years in TNG's future (so, 2390 or something), before Admiral Riker saved it from the chopping block and had it refitted. In other words, 7 years + about 15 to 25 more years = 22 to 32 years in service.
Granted, you are correct that there was some mention. However:
The 22nd Century NX Class was more or less a "proof of concept", part of a Starfleet/UESPA Warp Five program. So, long service life would not be a primary concern. And in any case, besides the two actually built and two planned, we don't know how extensive the program was before the Daedalus was introduced. And we are talking about an era before the Federation (when the technologies of the founding races was fully integrated and evolved into the starships we know today)
The second has been proven false by later "canon". The original Enterprise was commissioned in 2245, making it forty years old at the time of Star Trek III. And the last major back to front refit was completed only thirteen years prior. The vessel (and I'm assuming the Class, in general) would undergo constant, less radical refits than the one of 2270-2272. And besides, said dialogue related to the Enterprise itself, not the Constitution class in general.
The Class still had plenty of life left in it, since it was designed for rugged service and upgrades to newer tech. It remained the face of the Fleet for another seven years, after the "Great Experiment" turned out to be the "Great Boondoggle".
And there is evidence that the Class served in some capacity well into the 2360's. The wreck of a Constitution Class vessel at Wolf 359 is ample proof of that.
The last example is largely irrelevant, since it was in an alternate reality created by Q that never came to pass. So anything said in that episode's "future" portion has to be take with a grain of salt. The NCC-1701-D was lost over Veridan III a mere eight years after launch, a minute fraction of the Galaxy Class's projected service life of individual vessels (100 years).
And again, the Wright Brothers plane scenario. Go ahead and refit a Wright Brothers plane using the most modern materials, while keeping the design (shape) identical. See if it will perform on-par with the F-22. It won't, because the design is too old.
Apples to oranges. There is a big technological leap between the comparatively flimsy aircraft designs of the 20th Century and the Trek Starships of the late 23rd/24th Centuries. They are not even in the same category, since modern Starships (late 23rd to late 24th Centuries) are built with longevity and upgrades in mind. There is no comparison.
Plenty of reasons. They aren't seen as effective starships in the Federation's largest war, the Dominion War. They are consistently and numerously seen as cannon fodder. And there is NO reason why Starfleet would choose to keep these vessels in retrofitted active service when they are simply outdated.
What is portrayed on screen cannot be seen as an indicator of the effectiveness of older vessel designs. Like I said in another thread, quick kills and pretty explosions makes for good drama and keeps audiences riveted. "Red Shirts" are also required to give the audience an indication of how dire a threat is, without killing off the main cast or blowing up the "hero ship" too early on in the game. The Miranda just got the s*** end of the stick by DS9's production staff. Nothing more. It was not an indication of ineffectiveness or age on the part of the older vessels.
Some may find your opposition to what amounts to a minor issue, in a game that threw anything "canon" out the window a long time ago, bordering on fervent zeal. However, I find the discussion you generate with your posts a refreshing change from the usual whine fests on these boards. Keep up the good work.
Granted, you are correct that there was some mention. However:
The 22nd Century NX Class was more or less a "proof of concept", part of a Starfleet/UESPA Warp Five program. So, long service life would not be a primary concern. And in any case, besides the two actually built and two planned, we don't know how extensive the program was before the Daedalus was introduced. And we are talking about an era before the Federation (when the technologies of the founding races was fully integrated and evolved into the starships we know today)
The second has been proven false by later "canon". The original Enterprise was commissioned in 2245, making it forty years old at the time of Star Trek III. And the last major back to front refit was completed only thirteen years prior. The vessel (and I'm assuming the Class, in general) would undergo constant, less radical refits than the one of 2270-2272. And besides, said dialogue related to the Enterprise itself, not the Constitution class in general.
The Class still had plenty of life left in it, since it was designed for rugged service and upgrades to newer tech. It remained the face of the Fleet for another seven years, after the "Great Experiment" turned out to be the "Great Boondoggle".
And there is evidence that the Class served in some capacity well into the 2360's. The wreck of a Constitution Class vessel at Wolf 359 is ample proof of that.
The last example is largely irrelevant, since it was in an alternate reality created by Q that never came to pass. So anything said in that episode's "future" portion has to be take with a grain of salt. The NCC-1701-D was lost over Veridan III a mere eight years after launch, a minute fraction of the Galaxy Class's projected service life of individual vessels (100 years).
The space program is full of examples of spacecraft exceeding their expected lifespan. Just because someone expects something to be decommissioned in 20 years doesn't mean that it won't be around for another 20 years. It just means that the design was far more durable than what was expected. There is also the practice of ships being sold to various owners and have the ships last for much longer than their expected lifespan.
Let's flip the problem on its head: Most people want a T5 Miranda/NX/1701 because they want to be able to bring the thing into an STF/PvE queue without bothering others.
I take issue with your phrase 'most people want'. I would argue that it's a vocal minority.
if they can do eSTF in a T2 ship, then they are pro, and deserve extra rewards.
I've been in Fleet Defense missions where there were 2 Mirandas. We barely killed off the first wave due to their lack of firepower and constant exploding. I don't care how uber a group of 5 people you get, they aren't getting through a eSTF in Mirandas. 1/8th the firepower (at most), few boff powers, little hull, etc.
You all speak about the Miranda being outdated in STO. Well, though technically I agree that it is outdated, in STO it is in used in 2409 in Starfleet. You seem to all have forgetten that this is the ship you first fly. And it is in 2409. So yes, they are Miranda flying in starfleet, fighting the borg (arguably as cannon fodder).
This should stop the discussion about wether Miranda could or could not be used today. It can. As for the Vice-Admiral thing. It is obvious we are not Vice-Admiral, that is a bad design choice from Cryptic. We are all Captain. The only Admiral are the one managing Fleet.
Then we come to problem of the Miranda power (or lack of power). I will leave to other the debate of was a refit of the Miranda would be (though I guess the boff station could be upgraded) to address the question of how to mix low power ship and high power ship.
The best solution, that is applied in all wargame, is to give the ship point value and say that for a give scenario you can use a set number of point value. The point value can be used to scalethe ennemy too. The other solution is to put the limit of player to a very high number so that a low power ship does not take a slot of a high power ship (as the slots will never be filled, this is unlikely on a technical point of view but the more realist as army field what they can field). A more complicated solution would be to have a system that rank player with the ship they use (like chess, you win you go up, you lose (explode) you go down)and use a point value based on the ship/player rank. This is complicated but can be very rewarding for the pvp balance.
We need to be innovative to have all ships of the game can be used in all scenario. This is realistic and needed on a gameplay point of view.
I'm currently on vacation, and I don't have access to a computer. I'll write something a little longer when I get back. (Typing in this forum stinks with smartphones.)
I too would like to talk in the "discussion" format. I realize I was harsh in previous posts, and I apologize for that.
Seems as if there are plausible arguments for/against the inclusion of T1 and certain T2 ships into the T5 category. A special "T1/T2" PvE category seems to work, but would force Cryptic to invest time and money into setting up the queues for that.
Perhaps a simpler method is to give Elite-level mission rewards when a T1/T2 ship completes a Normal-level STF. This way, the low level ships stay out of Elites, still get rewards that are worth it, and are able to tackle a challenge without making it impossible for a team to complete an STF.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
Comments
Why dont they use a similar method to SWTOR where its the equipment and consoles that determine the lvl and the skin adjusts with it.
Player and forumite formerly known as FEELTHETHUNDER
Expatriot Might Characters in EXILE
One problem with that, and it's one technically I addressed in an earlier post:
How the hell do the Klin do it with BoP's, and Rom's do it with the smaller Warbirds, then?
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
I know where you're coming from. I myself would enjoy flying my NX-class starship into every combat scenario. I also realize the ship would be pulverized in an Elite STF, which is why I don't fly it in there.
When people don't like the game's balance, and insist on having their special little ship bumped up to the competitive level of ships from a newer era, that is what really bugs me. The reason people fly the newer era ships is because they offer choices for players to make when in combat, whether it be console choices, boff choices, weapon choices, aesthetic choices, etc. And the reason they fly their particular ship is because the choice that they view as most important is in that one ship.
The T1 ships offer minimal choices for players, and mainly, it's the aesthetic choice that excites these players. Again, nothing wrong with that. But now, players are asking, DEMANDING for a money-making company to set aside time from their busy schedule to fancy their ship and make it have all of the choices THEY want.
THAT is what is wrong here. Not speaking specifically to anyone in particular, but who do they think they are? From what it looks like, Cryptic has chosen to create new vessels like the Star Cruiser, Odyssey, Regent, and others, and chosen to leave the NX, Miranda, Connie, and other ships behind. That is their choice. This is their game.
Canon and realism are things that Cryptic themselves have tried to uphold (but fail miserably, time and again). For example, Connie is T1, TMP Connie is T2, Excelsior (non-retrofit) is T3, Ambassador is T3.5, Galaxy is T4, Sovereign is T5, Odyssey is T5.5. Yes, there are retrofits, but the non-retrofitted vessels are like this.
As for the Scimitar thalaron weapon, I don't condone it, and would rather have that weapon removed asap. But I know I don't have the right to change something that has nothing to do with me, and that will never be changed. I can only work to keep the current state of the game, and oppose the introduction of lower-tiered ships (due to selfish reasons) into the T5 or fleet category.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
Is there anything wrong with bringing a T1-2 in stf now, other than just bad form?
A "Low Tier Only" STF would be interesting, although I should think the villains should be changed from Borg to another species. Cardassian, perhaps.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
It's called "twisting words", (*Sigh*).
But as far as that person's comparison, an Wright brother's plane, vs an F-22, that's just a clueless example. Let's redo this one shall we? (*Provided for the sake of argument, that we had all the tech to get this done, like a Miranda retrofit would have available...
Ok, take that desing, make it all out of composites, instead of wood & fabric. Redesign the internals so there is a jet exhaust at the end, and a reasonably powerful jet engine. For the cockpit, use fully modern avionics, as well, canopy the thing, so when you go above 200mph, you're not yanking the poor pilot apart. Add in a radar (Both air to air, as well as air to surface capable. (And there is more than enough room in the thing to do that.) Also, fit some hardpoints onto the wings, for various munitions. There would also be room for a small cannon on the nose, maybe a scaled down M61A1 (instead of a 6=bbl version, maybe something similar to a Soviet version, like a 2 or 3-bbl version. Less rate of fire, but much smaller.) Now, if all the engineering is done right, this wiould be a VERY combat worthy plane. Would it tackle all of the roles an F-2 would? Hell no. But it would be far quicker, definately more manueverable, and have inherent stealth capabilities, due to the almost nonexistence of radar reflective materiels used in it's construction. So, in certain circumstances, it would actually OUTPERFORM the F-22 in some roles.
So, all in all, a "refit" Wright Brother's plane COULD be an excellent low-speed, high agility attack plane.
Now, the cost effectiveness is another story, in this case, it's probably not worth it, eh? But as regards to a Miranda (or other TOS/pre-TOS ship refits), they've already done much of the "research & development" needed to make it workable, with the Kumari, D'Khyr, etc etc, as well as the Klin showing that it's extremely viable, with their D-7 derivatives, variant BoP's, the the Rihan did so, with the T-Varo, the Mogai retrofits, the Dhelan Warbird retrofits, etc etc. So again, how come Starfleet, is the ONLY organization, that in your opinion, that is incapable of refitting some of the older, smaller ships? (And if you want to deal in size, hell, get rid of ALL frickin fleet and refit escorts, size-wise, there's no way they could keep up with even a TOS Constitution, in weaponry). And please, only a well-thought out response to this.....:D:D:cool:
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
Ummm, who is being selfish? Sounds like you've gotten what you wanted, so TRIBBLE everyone else. Correct me if I'm wrong, and this isn't meant to be a personal attack on you, but it sounds like you've done one on others. And btw, it's also called "freedom of expression". Just as you have the right to your opinion, and to express it, others have the right to theirs, so in you're own words, Who in the hell do you think you are?
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
"But now, players are asking, DEMANDING for a money-making company to set aside time from their busy schedule to fancy their ship and make it have all of the choices THEY want."
Those are the selfish people. Please read posts carefully.
I've only "gotten what I wanted" when this game closes its doors for good, and no T5 NX, Connie, or Miranda exists.
Absolutely, freedom of expression, I agree wholeheartedly. It's how people express themselves that get others ticked off. "Cryptic is OBLIGED to make a T5 Connie because it's an iconic ship!" are the kind of posts that trigger community backlash. Not saying every pro-Connie person says this, but that's just a general example of someone who is selfishly demanding a ship from a company that makes a Multiplayer game (emphasis on Multi-player, not single-player).
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
One simple word, specialization. Smaller Warbirds and Bird of Preys focus on being fast, maneuverable, and having a good amount of firepower. Anything that does not deal with strike fast and strike hard is not included on those ships. The Miranda would include various luxuries that would never exist on a smaller Warbird or Bird of Prey. Also the Miranda would include various features that are helpful in exploration and assisting other people, but useless in combat. Basically, the Miranda is a Jack of all Trades like most Federation ships while the smaller Warbirds and Bird of Preys specialize in combat.
Still doesn't answer how they can upgrade the hull to be tougher, and have more weapons compared to the lower tier BoP's. And your reply doesn't even take into account the Rom Warbirds, of similar size either, who have lower power, and a cloaking device (battle cloak at that), yet still manage to stuff MORE weaponry, along with that revamped hull, into a similar size package, to the lower tier versions. So again, you're telling me Starfleet is too inept to be able to revamp the Miranda (along with other cruisers, escorts, and sci ships in the lower tiers), to be able to produce retrofit, and Fleet refit versions? If so, what's your rationale?
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
Ok, well first off, this whole thread was started about making new queues possible, for ppl wanting to run lower tier ships, NOT necessarily making the higher tier ships. And I don't think there's anything wrong with stating your wish, to have certain ships "redone", to have them in the higher tiers, as well as the original versions in the lower tiers. And I have read all the posts in this thread pretty well, as it's one that interests me. Nowhere has anyone "demanded" anything of Cryptic. Quite the reverse, other than you, and a few others, who are ADAMANT about this not being allowed (either the queue idea, OR the Refit versions of older ships), and have actually been quite rude about it. So again, it kind of comes off as a TRIBBLE you to everyone who wnats something different. And as far as your"
I've only "gotten what I wanted" when this game closes its doors for good, and no T5 NX, Connie, or Miranda exists.", that's about the height of rudeness to others, and as well, if you hate this game SOOOO much, and the companies producing it, I'm honestly puzzled as to why you're on the forums, and playing the game. If I despised something that much, I wouldna be anywhere near using that companies product(s).
On a final note, as far as this being a "multi-player game", it's only as multi-player as you really want it to be. And for you to have the idea, that just because their are multiple users at the same time, means that everyone has to interact with everyone else, is just arrogance of the highest degree. Some people are naturally shy, and may prefer a solo, or a small group experience. Others may just want that solo experience. Others may get a huge rush out of being in a huge group. The benefits to having a single AND multi-player types of experiences available in the game, means, you can play how you wish, within the rules of the game. There is nothing that states, , "You MUST be willing to accept large amounts of people at all times in your gaming experience, here at STO." In fact, the game kind of goes out of it's way, to let a person know, that if you want to stay off by yourself, you can. If you want to play with others, you can. Hmmm, freedom of ability to play how one wishes.
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
I've made some pretty clear examples in my posts on how to utilize the c-store to make such an endeavor profitable while expanding upon content that is already deployed, to create more variety.
It has potential to create value both 'aesthetically' for the player and 'monetarily' for the company. PWE chooses to utilize a poor and overdone 'carrot and stick' micro-transaction which renders the majority of their content obsolete whenever the 'new hotness' drops.
Emotionalism is fine, but its not enough of an argument for or against. Don't worry so much about the straw men.
Please read posts carefully.
I'm sorry... but should any ships be piloted by Vice Admirals?
True, but then look at the other posters in the first page alone:
It is unrealistic to have very, very old ships rebuilt using modern components and placed in a category with much newer designs. That's the whole point of the Wright Brothers' plane example. No matter what you choose to build the ship with, because the design is so old, it won't hold up to supersonic speed like the Concorde, or be as nimble as the latest fighter jets. It just can't do it.
Same thing applies here. The design is simply too old. Warp geometry theory has undoubtedly progressed since 2151, and no matter how you adapt, a ship built around newer understanding of principles WILL exceed the performance of an older design, because it's limited by its outdated design.
From this thread alone.
This thread isn't the only thread that covers the topic of old T1 ships being moved up to T5, and there are some very passionate pro-Connie/NX/Miranda forum users all over the forums.
Yes, people in the forums have demanded or otherwise believe themselves entitled to a T5-ized version of their favourite starship. True, some members of the opposition have been rude about it, and I don't agree with how they phrased their thoughts. But the point remains, that there are people out there who believe themselves entitled and demand something irrespective of the repercussions from such a change.
Perhaps I phrased my point in an unclear manner.
- I personally want to keep as much canon and realism in STO as possible.
- I know that if a ship is added to the T5 list which shouldn't be there, it will not be removed from the T5 category (same applies with fleet ships). So I can't change that.
- What I can change is the advocation for other low level T1 starships from entering the T5 or fleet category. That is something I can pressure against. Failure of this goal is the inclusion of Miranda, Connie or NX classes into the T5 category.
- Therefore, I only succeed when it is certain that neither of the above three starships ever make it into the T5/fleet category, and that time is when the game ends, since there will be no more changes once the game has closed its doors.
It is not my intention or motive to anger people with my beliefs. But that is what I believe, and I cannot change that. I am not forcing my beliefs on other people, or preaching them adamantly. I merely state what I believe when people post of the forums, and back it up with logic, evidence, or anything else that may be required in a discussion.I also have the innate obligation to correct what is incorrect. Yes, that sounds arrogant. I won't divulge my life experiences, but all I will say is, that trait of mine cannot be changed or halted. It is also what I believe in.
I don't hate the company. I don't agree with their business decisions, and like most of the pro-Connie fans, I too believe one ship should be above all others - the Galaxy-class. But I'm also a realist, and I've woken up and faced facts, that the Galaxy will never be what I want it to believe. So, rather than be an arrogant and selfish person, I chose to accept it.
People who don't accept what the game's balance is currently, are arrogant and selfish. All they think about is themselves. They don't think about the ripple effects from a new ship in the category. How that affects team based play. How that affects the influx of STF queued people. How that affects balance in PvP. How that changes the image of the game. How that affects future starships who will be joining the T5 category.
It's like eco-awareness. People like the passionate pro-Connie fans are the industries polluting the planet, and the calm anti-Connie fans are the Green Earth movement, reminding them of what the repercussions of their influences are.
I understand what you're getting at. However, although solo play is something that I understand (I'm an avid Bridge Commander single player person myself), I also understand that the effects of adding one ship do not just affect the few people who want that ship. Their interactions with other people or even with the game will change a lot of the balance currently existing. They buy a T5 Miranda, which means they need to outfit it, meaning they need better gear, either from the Exchange (social interaction), or from grinding through the Reputation Systems (team based play). Either way, that ship will be influencing the game and all of its occupants. Apply it to PvP as well. People like myself have invested a lot of ingame resources, money and time into one or two particular ships. Now watch out, here comes another ship that can perform better than a much newer ship that people have invested in!
Ripple effect, Cause and effect, repercussions. Food for thought.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
Tier 1 ship is utilizing old technology while Tier 5 is utilizing the latest technology. Why give new ships to inexperienced Captains? The Miranda has a bunch of room taken up by non-combat equipment and luxury items so even though the Miranda and a Romulan ship are the same size, they don't have the same amount of room for combat systems. So an upgraded Miranda would never have the same amount of combat potential as similar sized Romulan and Klingon ships due to it being made not just for combat. This is why the Defiant is a Tier 4 and 5.5 ship. It is about the same size as the Miranda, but it focuses primarily on combat. If the non-combat and luxury features of the Miranda were removed, then it could fight as well as the Defiant, but it would no longer be the Miranda.
Starfleet is not too inept, it is just that refitting the Miranda would only make it to Tier 3 or Tier 4. Also Starfleet is in the habit of sending off their best ships off into combat and not ships that would likely get blown up. A refitted ship is not as good as a newly designed ship using the latest technology. Making new ships is a better use of Starfleet's time than refitting old ships for battle.
No it is not unrealistic. It has been done in Star Trek itself with the Excelsior Class USS Lakota against the USS Defiant.
Using the Wright Brothers plane and comparing it to a Miranda as being too old is simply opinion. We do not have any idea what limits a Miranda class has with use from futuristic technology that does not exist. What we do know is in Star Trek they can upgrade old ships to become as powerful as a more modern design like aforementioned Lakota vs. Defiant.
Wow pretty insulting calling people arrogant and selfish because they don't like the way the game has things balanced. I guess everyone in the world is arrogant and selfish because they don't like how the real world is. That would include people who are trying to make the world a better place in a similar way to how people are trying voice their opinion in how to make the game more appealing for actual Star Trek fans who want to be reminded of this being a Star Trek game more.
Making some of the ships from actual Star Trek shows and movies become better in the game will not make team games and PvP all of a sudden go so out of balance that it ruins the game. The perception of the game is already messed up so much with Starfleet Officers flying Tholian ships all over the place instead of actual Starfleet ships. It would make a lot more sense to see Miranda class ships commanded by Starfleet officers.
Again another insult from you. People love the Constitution class and don't deserve to be compared to people who are destroying the planet by polluting it and those who are against it like YOU to be the savior.
Edit: I have still yet to hear a valid reason for no tier 5 Miranda from you when we know that Starfleet can make old ships powerful enough to give a lot of trouble to newer Starfleet ships including a unoffical warship in addition to this very game having old ships at tier 5.
There is ZERO realism in this version of Star Trek.
Dr Who can be the Archetype to physics! The spitfire cannot reach space, let-alone change direction, then EVEN MOVE!
And the lasers ARE SOOOOOO unrealistic.
And guess what. Star Trek is better than Dr Who, AND ARE DIFFERENT, AND SHOULD
NEVER
EVER
be merged! :mad::mad:
(Want your argument to try and qualify , then , and I am sorry for this, take more time with your English)
I hope STO get's better ...
Chancllor J'mpok:
ARM DS9 - PREPARE FOR BATTLE
=end of message=
cause sometimes its party time!
I ask this: what does it matter? This is a GAME! What does it matter that someone wants to fly an older ship/want a fleet version of said ship? It's not affecting you in any way. No one complains when someone goes into a CoD match with the starting equipment just because they like it. No one complains when someone races online in a Spoon Civic against a Bugatti Vayron. There will always be people who like the older or oddball stuff either for nostalgia or because it holds a special place in their hearts.
I have personally been in an eSFT with a guy flying the Exeter with all top notch equipment and borg set, and looking back, he did quite well for it.
(PROOF: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaIkrTxb0x4 = look for the player named Uthar)
Star Trek Online is supposed to be about bringing many kinds of people together to have fun in their favorite fandom, not attack each other for their like/dislikes. There should be no problem for someone if they wanna play with the older stuff and any one who attack them for such should really look within themselves and ask if they are a true Star Trek fan.
Besides, if anything, I would LOVE to see the Enterprise-J playable at some point (maybe through another time travel event or something).
Obviously the Chimera is using TARDIS technology to accomplish this. The Chimera is a not a canon ship so there is no canon on what it should be like. The Miranda, NX, and Constitution are all canon ships and featured extensively so it breaks immersion when a NX could go up against a Sovereign and win. And if we break immersion on canon ships, then what is stopping people from asking for Tier 5 versions of the Phoenix and DY-100?
Ok, now at least, this post from you, for the most part I can respect, and I do note, that you've basically apologized for any insults that may have come out from past posts, and I appreciate that.
The only thing I didn't like, was the fact that you likened TOS fans to eco-destroyers, and pro-newer only ship lovers to "green" & responsible people. I hardly think that comparison applies. That's like saying if you want a pizza, in a mexican restaurant, you're destroying the planet.
But As far as you're "ripple effect" ANY ship, that is newly purchased (through any means), will cause that, so that is a neither here nor there. On your argument, that a Miranda exceeding a "top-of-the-line" ship will have repercussions. I could agree with there, if it were not for the fact that they've already done that, with Kumari, warbird variants, BoP variants, D-7 battle-cruiser variants, etc etc. And for your argument on "Starfleet not sending older ships, but instead sending newer ships, that's illogical on the face of it. The fact that they exist in the tiers they do, screams, "We're sending out older ships", and if the game didn't "scale to the characters level" there technically would be no degree of certainty that those T1-4 ships would even meet stuff they would theoretically be capable of handling.
So, overall, I have to continue to disagree with you, that these older T-1/2, and even for those that like some T3 ships (which by the way, a LOT of those have fleet equivalents, including your Galaxy class, that you expressed admiration for), I have very little problems with seeing those made into Fleet ships. (Or even C-Store retrofits such as some other ships already have, which would cheapen out the module cost for the Fleet refit versions)
But overall, I do say, I like the turn that your arguments have taken, they are more reasoned, and more of a "This is what I feel, and think discussion flavour", rather than the argumentative, insulting flavour your earlier posts had. On this note, it would be enjoyable to continue discussing this with you, even if it all ends up in a "Agree to disagree" type of thing
(*Bows*)
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
Granted, you are correct that there was some mention. However:
The 22nd Century NX Class was more or less a "proof of concept", part of a Starfleet/UESPA Warp Five program. So, long service life would not be a primary concern. And in any case, besides the two actually built and two planned, we don't know how extensive the program was before the Daedalus was introduced. And we are talking about an era before the Federation (when the technologies of the founding races was fully integrated and evolved into the starships we know today)
The second has been proven false by later "canon". The original Enterprise was commissioned in 2245, making it forty years old at the time of Star Trek III. And the last major back to front refit was completed only thirteen years prior. The vessel (and I'm assuming the Class, in general) would undergo constant, less radical refits than the one of 2270-2272. And besides, said dialogue related to the Enterprise itself, not the Constitution class in general.
The Class still had plenty of life left in it, since it was designed for rugged service and upgrades to newer tech. It remained the face of the Fleet for another seven years, after the "Great Experiment" turned out to be the "Great Boondoggle".
And there is evidence that the Class served in some capacity well into the 2360's. The wreck of a Constitution Class vessel at Wolf 359 is ample proof of that.
The last example is largely irrelevant, since it was in an alternate reality created by Q that never came to pass. So anything said in that episode's "future" portion has to be take with a grain of salt. The NCC-1701-D was lost over Veridan III a mere eight years after launch, a minute fraction of the Galaxy Class's projected service life of individual vessels (100 years).
Apples to oranges. There is a big technological leap between the comparatively flimsy aircraft designs of the 20th Century and the Trek Starships of the late 23rd/24th Centuries. They are not even in the same category, since modern Starships (late 23rd to late 24th Centuries) are built with longevity and upgrades in mind. There is no comparison.
What is portrayed on screen cannot be seen as an indicator of the effectiveness of older vessel designs. Like I said in another thread, quick kills and pretty explosions makes for good drama and keeps audiences riveted. "Red Shirts" are also required to give the audience an indication of how dire a threat is, without killing off the main cast or blowing up the "hero ship" too early on in the game. The Miranda just got the s*** end of the stick by DS9's production staff. Nothing more. It was not an indication of ineffectiveness or age on the part of the older vessels.
Some may find your opposition to what amounts to a minor issue, in a game that threw anything "canon" out the window a long time ago, bordering on fervent zeal. However, I find the discussion you generate with your posts a refreshing change from the usual whine fests on these boards. Keep up the good work.
The space program is full of examples of spacecraft exceeding their expected lifespan. Just because someone expects something to be decommissioned in 20 years doesn't mean that it won't be around for another 20 years. It just means that the design was far more durable than what was expected. There is also the practice of ships being sold to various owners and have the ships last for much longer than their expected lifespan.
I take issue with your phrase 'most people want'. I would argue that it's a vocal minority.
I've been in Fleet Defense missions where there were 2 Mirandas. We barely killed off the first wave due to their lack of firepower and constant exploding. I don't care how uber a group of 5 people you get, they aren't getting through a eSTF in Mirandas. 1/8th the firepower (at most), few boff powers, little hull, etc.
This should stop the discussion about wether Miranda could or could not be used today. It can. As for the Vice-Admiral thing. It is obvious we are not Vice-Admiral, that is a bad design choice from Cryptic. We are all Captain. The only Admiral are the one managing Fleet.
Then we come to problem of the Miranda power (or lack of power). I will leave to other the debate of was a refit of the Miranda would be (though I guess the boff station could be upgraded) to address the question of how to mix low power ship and high power ship.
The best solution, that is applied in all wargame, is to give the ship point value and say that for a give scenario you can use a set number of point value. The point value can be used to scalethe ennemy too. The other solution is to put the limit of player to a very high number so that a low power ship does not take a slot of a high power ship (as the slots will never be filled, this is unlikely on a technical point of view but the more realist as army field what they can field). A more complicated solution would be to have a system that rank player with the ship they use (like chess, you win you go up, you lose (explode) you go down)and use a point value based on the ship/player rank. This is complicated but can be very rewarding for the pvp balance.
We need to be innovative to have all ships of the game can be used in all scenario. This is realistic and needed on a gameplay point of view.
Skanvak Drakken
http://lamaisondesdrakkens.clan-box.com/index.php
I too would like to talk in the "discussion" format. I realize I was harsh in previous posts, and I apologize for that.
Seems as if there are plausible arguments for/against the inclusion of T1 and certain T2 ships into the T5 category. A special "T1/T2" PvE category seems to work, but would force Cryptic to invest time and money into setting up the queues for that.
Perhaps a simpler method is to give Elite-level mission rewards when a T1/T2 ship completes a Normal-level STF. This way, the low level ships stay out of Elites, still get rewards that are worth it, and are able to tackle a challenge without making it impossible for a team to complete an STF.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
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