now look, this "intended" for them is utter BS...if you think in that category, no wonder you come to your conclusions.
the doff setup is mandatory...i use a torpedo doff as the 5th doff...the 4 i mentioned are mandatory
yes...without a tac in the captain seat you will not outdps a tac captain, just as you will not out dps a rogue, or mage in any other MMO.
tacs have weaknesses too you know.
idk, why you expect to be king of the hill with BO is beyond me...the powerdrain is absurd, the dmg gain is questionable for sustained combat and dps race.
it's an alpha strike ability, used with DBB...used in any other way is a wasted weapon and boff slot, and yes, period.
yes TT does allow you to never lose a shield facing...aux2batt build gives you 2 tac teams for the price of one...it is simple as that. even in PVP if you lost your shields no amount of armor will save you...not even talking about diminishing returns and the usefullness of 3 ontop of the 2 armor skills.
fact is, that the average joe doesn't even care about the balance issue of engi, beams etc...so where do you want to go with this "average player" argument? people who care about DPS, have the time to invest in such a ship and gear.
Intended for them? Is it written anywhere in the game that cruisers are for engi captains or sci vessels are for sci captains?
Yes , it is written ... in the small print !
(or the BO powers available to you if you will)
You can't apply the best Tac/Sci/Eng powers unless you're in a ship that has a Commander level BO post that is relevant to your profession .
This is one of the reasons I'm sceptical of FAW DPS parsing .
Sure you can fly whatever you want , and you may (as a Sci/Eng) DPS better in an Escort , but you will not be the best Sci / Eng in an Escort .
Only the Tac profession manages to somewhat bridge this in Cruisers , but not all players are Tac's .
and I think that premise is wrong, personally. I think any ship can quite easily fit any playstyle if you play around with the build. You can tank/CC in an escort and DPS-machine a cruiser. I don't think the "escorts do the dps, cruisers tank and science CCand debuff" is accurate in the slightest. It's only if you want to really min-max that this becomes even remotely applicable.
That might be how they were originally intended, and how they are set up as stock - but I don't think it's true at all.
Except for science ships, which have 6 weapon slots WITHOUT the ability to field cannons (mary sue vesta excluded), and TRIBBLE tac/engi loadouts.
____________________________________________________
Pay no attention to the dates and titles under my name at the left! I am a Career Officer, Lifetime Sub since launch, was in the Beta. Having problems with my forum account.
It's probably because a lot of people are crying that cruisers don't do as much damage as escorts, and ignoring that fact that they're supposed to tank...
I think the tears come from them not being much better at tanking than any of the other classes of ship and not the DPS.
At least they shouldn't be crying over the DPS because that's silly.
I do not see how BFaw is now undefendible ingame.
Unless one can condense all the beams onto one target as in the old BFaw for a massive strike, I do not see how it can be defended against like normal.
Yes , it is written ... in the small print !
(or the BO powers available to you if you will)
You can't apply the best Tac/Sci/Eng powers unless you're in a ship that has a Commander level BO post that is relevant to your profession .
This is one of the reasons I'm sceptical of FAW DPS parsing .
Sure you can fly whatever you want , and you may (as a Sci/Eng) DPS better in an Escort , but you will not be the best Sci / Eng in an Escort .
Only the Tac profession manages to somewhat bridge this in Cruisers , but not all players are Tac's .
now that is completely untrue...also that statement makes no sense. Anybody can train your boff's commander ability (a friend or a random guy on ESD or wherever)...not just you. i think you miss taht point. Further some BOFFs come with very the highest possible commander abilities...aux2SIF 3, RSP3, scatter volley 3, omega 3, etc...list is very, very long.
what exactly this has got to do with your scepticism about FAW, idk...and cannot imagine why.
my sci captain using the breen destroyer uses scatter volley 3 + AP:beta2, no problem there...appart from AP:alpha my sci and tac do exactly the same dmg with that combo
now look, this "intended" for them is utter BS...if you think in that category, no wonder you come to your conclusions.
I find it amusing that you have a problem with my vision for things that are intended (as I see it) , yet you turn around and straight in the next sentence declare that some tings are "mandatory" .
the doff setup is mandatory...i use a torpedo doff as the 5th doff...the 4 i mentioned are mandatory
What's the dif between "intended" and "mandatory" ?
yes...without a tac in the captain seat you will not outdps a tac captain, just as you will not out dps a rogue, or mage in any other MMO.
tacs have weaknesses too you know.
Except that you tried to assure me a few posts ago that TT solves all problems , thus there was no need for Eng consoles .
So which is it ?
idk, why you expect to be king of the hill with BO is beyond me...
Simple . With BO I was able to get kills in PVP two years ago as an Engineer in a cruiser .
Thanks to the non stop power creep and the "let's have Tac's do every role" attitude , that has more or less gone out the window .
it's an alpha strike ability, used with DBB...
Exactly ... (sort of) .
An Engineer suffers much less from the power drain , thus it was a spike damage ability in the past .
even in PVP if you lost your shields no amount of armor will save you...
We disagree on this point too .
fact is, that the average joe doesn't even care about the balance issue of engi, beams etc...so where do you want to go with this "average player" argument ?
There is no argument as I'm not in this to "win" something .
All I'm saying that this game used to have a balance of sorts , and that balance is getting distorted by the power creep that manifests itself ultimately between the "haves" and the "have not's" .
You are right that some of this stuff can be gotten somewhat easily (via the reputation) .
The Lobi consoles are another story .
And I have seen enough Scimitars explode in STF's recently to conclude that if the "average Joe" puts in all his nifty consoles where he should be putting Engineering consoles , then he will sometimes go boom .
The only "winning" strategy that the OP's post supports is : destroy the enemy so fast that they won't have time to hurt you .
That's nice (if a bit boring) , but your "average" player don't play in that sphere .
now that is completely untrue...also that statement makes no sense. Anybody can train your boff's commander ability (a friend or a random guy on ESD or wherever)...not just you. i think you miss taht point.
That was not my point .
I was not talking about the ability to train , but the ability to use .
You can't use aux2SIF 3 on an Escort (BOP's excluded) .
You can't use APO 3 or any other Commander level Tac power on a Sci ship (BOP's excluded) .
The game limits you in a fashion (unless you have all universal BO slots) .
This is why you can only bring the best of what your profession offers in a limited number of ships .
Sure , you can fly other ships , but you won't bring the best of your profession with you .
And I'm of the old fashioned mind set that players want to be the best at what they are , instead of chasing the elusive "being best at DPS" thingy .
Obviously this is a flawed POV from your perspective , as you see DPS as King .
(which is valid POV as well , it's just not my POV)
what exactly this has got to do with your scepticism about FAW, idk...and cannot imagine why.
Ok , tell me , what does a parser count if you use FAW in CSE ?
Does it count each beam that makes contact with any / all probes + cubes ?
Because if it does , it gives a flawed "achievement" data , as in CSE you are able to actually effect the bottom probes first , then the top probes , then the cube (in that order) .
So actually , only your hits at the bottom probes should count , then the top probes , then your hits on the cube .
If a parser counts hits from FAW on the cube when it still has probes beneath it (and the cube is not damaged in the slightest) -- I will call that mis-information , because in practice you're not doing any damage , thus counting the damage to the cube does not actually count .
Same theory applies to ISE when you hit with your FAW both the 4 small Transformers and the larger one in the center .
The larger one does not take damage until the 4 small ones are destroyed .
Thus the larger one getting hit should not count in the DPS rating because that does exactly squat damage .
Here's something else :
Let's say that 4 Sci (with no FAW) and one Tac with FAW do an STF .
The Sci debuff stuff with Sensor Scan like mad , while the Tac does his FAW pew pew .
Who get's the big numbers according to the parser results ?
The Tac ?
If he does , then does he get those numbers purely because of his FAW ability , or because of the multiple debuffs of the Sci's ?
Would it not be possible that that Tac would not have gotten those numbers if the Sci were not there to Debuff ? Meaning that the presence of the Sci ships actually skewed the parser results in favor of the Tac .
All of the above have me suspicious of parser results of FAW .
That , plus I have heard that sometimes two players running parsers in the same STF's got different numbers about the same game .
In short , I don't thing that the use of parsers is an exact science . :cool:
faw spam with a tac. thats original. beams are useless on single target dmg and faw spam hits stuff that cannot be hurt, or just simply heal back, creating quite a lot of false numbers.
also the lack of concentrated fire, faw spam is less useful against huge groups, and against players with high burst dmg, you cant compare.
in the end, beams are viable, but still less versitile as cannons.
and you are a tac, so that again proves, how superiror tacs are compared to everything else (and imo that is the bigger problem, and not the beam-cannon issue)
edit: mind you, I am having way too much fun on my beamscort, so I am all for faw spam, but the fact that one way of using beams, can seem to be more effective than cannons, does not change the fact, that cannons are better overall
i'm not going to repeat myself, and i doubt you will or want to understand what i was trying to explain to you.
this 2 sentences have nothing to do with each other....why you read them as one, idk.
first sentence is about ships and captains combinations, the second is about the aux2batt build specifically regardless of captain type.
you just put them together, they are not even from the same post...
you sceptizism about BFAW is a scepticism with AOE effects in general it seems...scatter volley, GW, anything that does dmg to more than 1 target is bound to hit something where it gets healed away...
following your logic any dmg that gets healed shouldn't be counted as dps by a parser.
That was not my point .
I was not talking about the ability to train , but the ability to use .
You can't use aux2SIF 3 on an Escort (BOP's excluded) .
You can't use APO 3 or any other Commander level Tac power on a Sci ship (BOP's excluded) .
The game limits you in a fashion (unless you have all universal BO slots) .
This is why you can only bring the best of what your profession offers in a limited number of ships .
Sure , you can fly other ships , but you won't bring the best of your profession with you .
And I'm of the old fashioned mind set that players want to be the best at what they are , instead of chasing the elusive "being best at DPS" thingy . *this is not old fashioned, just massive gimping yourself, hate to break it to you, but the game is centred around dealing dmg. and each class is more or less capable in doing so, if the right ship/build is used*
Obviously this is a flawed POV from your perspective , as you see DPS as King .
(which is valid POV as well , it's just not my POV)
this has nothing to do with the class you play...nothing is stopping my tac captain from using aux2SIF3 on a cruiser, or my engi captain using Omega3 on an escort...you can't bring the best trainable abilites of your class, but you get the complete array of commander abilities of the other class, by simply training the ability to the boff you want...
You don't lose anything
You can't apply the best Tac/Sci/Eng powers unless you're in a ship that has a Commander level BO post that is relevant to your profession .
This is one of the reasons I'm sceptical of FAW DPS parsing .
they DO NOT need to be relevant to your profession. Your profession/class has absolutely no impact on your ship regarding the boff powers...and again, followed by a completely unrelated sentence about how BFAW is parsed
you sceptizism about BFAW is a scepticism with AOE effects in general it seems...scatter volley, GW, anything that does dmg to more than 1 target is bound to hit something where it gets healed away...
following your logic any dmg that gets healed shouldn't be counted as dps by a parser.
mind you, FAW hits too much of that, that is why you have such high numbers, and that is why you will never actually know how much actual potential is in it. with SCV you can turn so that you hit only relevant things, with BFAW, you cant, or you have to move really far, making your overall dps drop.
they DO NOT need to be relevant to your profession. Your profession/class has absolutely no impact on your ship regarding the boff powers...
1. not many ppl realize that sadly
2. maybe it should not be like that, and stuff should be enhanced by your profession (but again, this would only result, more tacs in the game...)
mind you, FAW hits too much of that, that is why you have such high numbers, and that is why you will never actually know how much actual potential is in it. with SCV you can turn so that you hit only relevant things, with BFAW, you cant, or you have to move really far, making your overall dps drop.
i'm aware of that. however FAW still is much more effective than BO and will even on single target outdps BO by far.
also BFAW with AP:beta is kind of the best offensive support you can give a grp
i'm aware of that. however FAW still is much more effective than BO and will even on single target outdps BO by far.
also BFAW with AP:beta is kind of the best offensive support you can give a grp
yeah, BO is just broken.
tho FAW is useless against huge groups, with high health with its randomness
It's probably because a lot of people are crying that cruisers don't do as much damage as escorts, and ignoring that fact that they're supposed to tank...
Can we forget this nonsense, pls?
Yes, cruiser can be tanks but with a good tactical setup it can do very good DPS. Not insane, overpowered dps like escorts but a dps cruiser can do fine in any estf.
Tact Escorts have already received a huge damage nerf, when they made going down fighting useless. That being said cruisers do seem to be doing better of late, then previous times in stos history. Although I do think that aux to battery is overrated. All it does is ensure high power levels, and that is only one part of good solid damage. Not sure how cruisers are doing in pvp these days, but in elite stfs, they seem to have an edge.
I was also a Escort pilot for long, long, time. I was good at damage but couldn't make them tank worth a darn. I would go into arena PVP and see these guys in Bugs and Fleet patrol escorts that could take on 5 at once and not drop shields. I could never figure out how they did that. I am a Tac Captian and now I use a Fleet Excelsior beam boat. I can shield tank in this ship and the Aux2batt build greatly reduces my cool-downs. I can always keep a EPTS and TSS2 and ET and TT up. And I run BO2, BO3 and can do nice spike damage. So in PVP arena I can do really well, unless I'm in a PUG vs Pre-made. The 5 pug matches I did last night I only died maybe once per match if that, and was always in the top 3 in damage and kills. So yes Cruisers are viable in PVP
another point to make. if you put the faw spam build on an escort, it will out do the cruiser. higher movement will not only mean better positioning but it will mean a higher defense rating, so in the and, you will have much more offensive powers, and similar tanking, and better movement
mind you, FAW hits too much of that, that is why you have such high numbers, and that is why you will never actually know how much actual potential is in it. with SCV you can turn so that you hit only relevant things, with BFAW, you cant, or you have to move really far, making your overall dps drop.
1. not many ppl realize that sadly
2. maybe it should not be like that, and stuff should be enhanced by your profession (but again, this would only result, more tacs in the game...)
There are no irrelevant targets in PvE except during Crystalline and hitting Tholians or Shards and if you think...
faw spam with a tac. thats original. beams are useless on single target dmg and faw spam hits stuff that cannot be hurt, or just simply heal back, creating quite a lot of false numbers.
Then you simply don't understand how parsing works. There's a reason alhucemas' plugin splits base damage and actual damage.
+It shows both actual damage and damage before buffs/debuffs/shield apply (in a new column named "BaseDamage").
To you maybe .
Why is it so hard to understand that Eng's & Sci feel left behind in the DPS arms race when they use the ships that are intended for them (without all that "bling" junk that this setup had) ?
Yes, my doff setup is what you predicted. 3 technicians, a space warfare specialist and Marion the DEM doff. Marion was pretty cheap when I got him, I think he's up to about 30m now. Still, EC is pretty easy to make in this game. I hardly have any "bling" junk on this game (except for the weapons, I guess). The three reputation consoles ANYONE can get extremely easily, with little effort and little grinding. Plasmonic leech is just as easy. The only trouble stuff on my ship is the rep weapons. Frankly, anyone can get them. I have 11 toons, so I get quite a lot of refined dilithium per day if I really set my mind to it and want to grind (Mostly I don't, I'm content with 16/24k per day because it's fast and easy)
As for "left behind in the arms race" - to a certain extent I agree with you. Engineers suck at DPS in space, period. They make great tanks with the silly OP Miracle Worker trait which I adore on my dedicated tank, but they suck in space. They're epic on the ground though. If you roll a engineer toon expect to win on the ground, make a superb tank in space but be a bit behind the tac escorts in space. I don't see that as unbalanced or unfair, personally. I have two engineers and I like them, one in a tanky raptor that *never* dies. No, it doesn't do as much as my TAC BOP but who cares!
(only slotting pay/uni consoles? lol) I'm impressed. This way it's just a "look I spent so much money on this build" thread - there are tons of those. Whenever Players ask for a viable build to help them on the way people are rpeatedly posting their uber-builds made with fleet/payships, ultra-rare uni consoles / pre-order bonuses etc. - that's not helping, thats showing off.
WTF are you talking about. Three consoles are from the reputation system which pretty much everyone has, and the other is plasmonic leech which costs absolutely nothing on the exchange.
Everyone owns a fleet ship now, you don't need any money you can just get one for 20m on the exchange. Run Gorn Minefield all day and you'll have enough to do that.
Yes, I have a RMC. I can ditch it and go for aux batteries if you like - that won't change the build at all. I'm not entirely sure what your problem is but get your facts straight.
To be honest I am much more bothered by the seeming segregation of the STF community into "DPS 5000-10.000" channels then anything someone can/can't perform with FAW and a parser .
Our main and sister channel is DPS-5,000. Anyone can get into that with any kind of build, 5k is very very easy to manage. Once you're in there, people chat, talk builds, crunch numbers, run STFs and generally tend to improve. I joined a few months ago and went from 5k to 10k pretty much overnight just with piloting tips and some small build tweaks (I was in a JHEC at the time).
You don't need BFAW, you don't need a parser, there's always someone happy to do it for you.
As for the 11k channel, the vast majority fly Kumaris, Fleet Defiants and Bugs. There aren't many A2B BFAW spambots at all.
so tell me, how is hitting a cube that is being healed by 3 probes and hitting those 3 probes that are heald by 1-1 probes relevant?
it is irrelevant for the mission progress...however that is what the ship is capable of. The parser is not wrong, if those targets would not heal themselves the number would still be the same.
you could argue now that a healing target can be hit indefinately to accumulate dmg numbers...however we are talking about dps, and considering that a ISE takes less than 5 minutes with 2-3 tac cruiser aux2batt ships it is hard to argue against it or make that point relevant.
tho FAW is useless against huge groups, with high health with its randomness
Except for the fact it's putting an APB debuff (and possibly a disruptor proc debuff, and maybe a plasma fire) on whatever it hits. That's pretty big and important that you're forgetting.
I actually consider this ship as more of a support role than a DPS monster - because (as many have pointed out) a non-negligible amount of the damage dealt is to self-regenerating targets which heal themselves.
it is irrelevant for the mission progress...however that is what the ship is capable of. The parser is not wrong, if those targets would not heal themselves the number would still be the same.
you could argue now that a healing target can be hit indefinately to accumulate dmg numbers...however we are talking about dps, and considering that a ISE takes less than 5 minutes with 2-3 tac cruiser aux2batt ships it is hard to argue against it or make that point relevant.
If I sat there and hammered on cube or probe that was being healed and effectively took 0 damage with my cannon escort my DPS numbers would be easily over 20k. However, all of my damage actually goes into killing stuff instead of spamming it at targets that either heal it shortly or don't take damage at all.
When people say "X sucks, use Y instead" I tend to ignore them. I've heard it way too often, and it almost always boils down to "X sucks for my individual playstyle."
(snip)
It's more about what you put on the ship and the ability to be clever in exploiting that ship's unique abilities.
^^^THIS^^^
This statement pretty sums up the truth of the matter for every single argument about ships, builds, and weapon types that ever occur on the forums. I would request that the devs paste this at the end of every such thread. LOL
If I sat there and hammered on cube or probe that was being healed and effectively took 0 damage with my cannon escort my DPS numbers would be easily over 20k. However, all of my damage actually goes into killing stuff instead of spamming it at targets that either heal it shortly or don't take damage at all.
You're missing the point that I wasn't sitting there hammering the gate, and we got the mission done in under four minutes. With two people above 15k DPS both using BFAW.
Build a cruiser for 1 million EC fresh on level 50 as an engineer, go play eSTF and come back here and re-post.
I will be surprised if you can even take down the probes or bop's
Plasmonic leech alone is over 150,000 dil on the kdf side alone, come on now...
And of course cannons beat beams.
All that being said, why worry about dps for pve? eSTF is so forgiving everyone should use whatever they want and have fun.
If you have fun in your cruiser great no reason to care. Fly a weak ship if you like the design it's all good no stress.
If I sat there and hammered on cube or probe that was being healed and effectively took 0 damage with my cannon escort my DPS numbers would be easily over 20k. However, all of my damage actually goes into killing stuff instead of spamming it at targets that either heal it shortly or don't take damage at all.
lol, you postet my whole responce, but completely ignored the second paragraphe...great job!;)
Build a cruiser for 1 million EC fresh on level 50 as an engineer, go play eSTF and come back here and re-post.
I will be surprised if you can even take down the probes or bop's
Plasmonic leech alone is over 150,000 dil on the kdf side alone, come on now...
And of course cannons beat beams.
All that being said, why worry about dps for pve? eSTF is so forgiving everyone should use whatever they want and have fun.
If you have fun in your cruiser great no reason to care. Fly a weak ship if you like the design it's all good no stress.
why do you feel obligated to pick up a cruiser with an engi as first ship...it is a bad idea, just saying.
plasmonic leech costs only 2 million ec for feds...sry for the kdf there, but thats how it is. it is useless anyway if you run maco shields, buffs don't stack anymore.
if you put a science captain in cruiser or sci vessel you basically have the same result anyway. Escorts are the smaetest choice for new players, regardless of class...i would even go as far and say a tac captain is better off in a cruiser to learn the basics and not die due to constant aggro.
Comments
now look, this "intended" for them is utter BS...if you think in that category, no wonder you come to your conclusions.
the doff setup is mandatory...i use a torpedo doff as the 5th doff...the 4 i mentioned are mandatory
yes...without a tac in the captain seat you will not outdps a tac captain, just as you will not out dps a rogue, or mage in any other MMO.
tacs have weaknesses too you know.
idk, why you expect to be king of the hill with BO is beyond me...the powerdrain is absurd, the dmg gain is questionable for sustained combat and dps race.
it's an alpha strike ability, used with DBB...used in any other way is a wasted weapon and boff slot, and yes, period.
yes TT does allow you to never lose a shield facing...aux2batt build gives you 2 tac teams for the price of one...it is simple as that. even in PVP if you lost your shields no amount of armor will save you...not even talking about diminishing returns and the usefullness of 3 ontop of the 2 armor skills.
fact is, that the average joe doesn't even care about the balance issue of engi, beams etc...so where do you want to go with this "average player" argument? people who care about DPS, have the time to invest in such a ship and gear.
Yes , it is written ... in the small print !
(or the BO powers available to you if you will)
You can't apply the best Tac/Sci/Eng powers unless you're in a ship that has a Commander level BO post that is relevant to your profession .
This is one of the reasons I'm sceptical of FAW DPS parsing .
Sure you can fly whatever you want , and you may (as a Sci/Eng) DPS better in an Escort , but you will not be the best Sci / Eng in an Escort .
Only the Tac profession manages to somewhat bridge this in Cruisers , but not all players are Tac's .
Except for science ships, which have 6 weapon slots WITHOUT the ability to field cannons (mary sue vesta excluded), and TRIBBLE tac/engi loadouts.
Pay no attention to the dates and titles under my name at the left! I am a Career Officer, Lifetime Sub since launch, was in the Beta. Having problems with my forum account.
I think the tears come from them not being much better at tanking than any of the other classes of ship and not the DPS.
At least they shouldn't be crying over the DPS because that's silly.
Unless one can condense all the beams onto one target as in the old BFaw for a massive strike, I do not see how it can be defended against like normal.
R.I.P
now that is completely untrue...also that statement makes no sense. Anybody can train your boff's commander ability (a friend or a random guy on ESD or wherever)...not just you. i think you miss taht point. Further some BOFFs come with very the highest possible commander abilities...aux2SIF 3, RSP3, scatter volley 3, omega 3, etc...list is very, very long.
what exactly this has got to do with your scepticism about FAW, idk...and cannot imagine why.
my sci captain using the breen destroyer uses scatter volley 3 + AP:beta2, no problem there...appart from AP:alpha my sci and tac do exactly the same dmg with that combo
I find it amusing that you have a problem with my vision for things that are intended (as I see it) , yet you turn around and straight in the next sentence declare that some tings are "mandatory" .
What's the dif between "intended" and "mandatory" ?
Except that you tried to assure me a few posts ago that TT solves all problems , thus there was no need for Eng consoles .
So which is it ?
Simple . With BO I was able to get kills in PVP two years ago as an Engineer in a cruiser .
Thanks to the non stop power creep and the "let's have Tac's do every role" attitude , that has more or less gone out the window .
Exactly ... (sort of) .
An Engineer suffers much less from the power drain , thus it was a spike damage ability in the past .
We disagree on this point too .
There is no argument as I'm not in this to "win" something .
All I'm saying that this game used to have a balance of sorts , and that balance is getting distorted by the power creep that manifests itself ultimately between the "haves" and the "have not's" .
You are right that some of this stuff can be gotten somewhat easily (via the reputation) .
The Lobi consoles are another story .
And I have seen enough Scimitars explode in STF's recently to conclude that if the "average Joe" puts in all his nifty consoles where he should be putting Engineering consoles , then he will sometimes go boom .
The only "winning" strategy that the OP's post supports is : destroy the enemy so fast that they won't have time to hurt you .
That's nice (if a bit boring) , but your "average" player don't play in that sphere .
That was not my point .
I was not talking about the ability to train , but the ability to use .
You can't use aux2SIF 3 on an Escort (BOP's excluded) .
You can't use APO 3 or any other Commander level Tac power on a Sci ship (BOP's excluded) .
The game limits you in a fashion (unless you have all universal BO slots) .
This is why you can only bring the best of what your profession offers in a limited number of ships .
Sure , you can fly other ships , but you won't bring the best of your profession with you .
And I'm of the old fashioned mind set that players want to be the best at what they are , instead of chasing the elusive "being best at DPS" thingy .
Obviously this is a flawed POV from your perspective , as you see DPS as King .
(which is valid POV as well , it's just not my POV)
Ok , tell me , what does a parser count if you use FAW in CSE ?
Does it count each beam that makes contact with any / all probes + cubes ?
Because if it does , it gives a flawed "achievement" data , as in CSE you are able to actually effect the bottom probes first , then the top probes , then the cube (in that order) .
So actually , only your hits at the bottom probes should count , then the top probes , then your hits on the cube .
If a parser counts hits from FAW on the cube when it still has probes beneath it (and the cube is not damaged in the slightest) -- I will call that mis-information , because in practice you're not doing any damage , thus counting the damage to the cube does not actually count .
Same theory applies to ISE when you hit with your FAW both the 4 small Transformers and the larger one in the center .
The larger one does not take damage until the 4 small ones are destroyed .
Thus the larger one getting hit should not count in the DPS rating because that does exactly squat damage .
Here's something else :
Let's say that 4 Sci (with no FAW) and one Tac with FAW do an STF .
The Sci debuff stuff with Sensor Scan like mad , while the Tac does his FAW pew pew .
Who get's the big numbers according to the parser results ?
The Tac ?
If he does , then does he get those numbers purely because of his FAW ability , or because of the multiple debuffs of the Sci's ?
Would it not be possible that that Tac would not have gotten those numbers if the Sci were not there to Debuff ? Meaning that the presence of the Sci ships actually skewed the parser results in favor of the Tac .
All of the above have me suspicious of parser results of FAW .
That , plus I have heard that sometimes two players running parsers in the same STF's got different numbers about the same game .
In short , I don't thing that the use of parsers is an exact science . :cool:
also the lack of concentrated fire, faw spam is less useful against huge groups, and against players with high burst dmg, you cant compare.
in the end, beams are viable, but still less versitile as cannons.
and you are a tac, so that again proves, how superiror tacs are compared to everything else (and imo that is the bigger problem, and not the beam-cannon issue)
edit: mind you, I am having way too much fun on my beamscort, so I am all for faw spam, but the fact that one way of using beams, can seem to be more effective than cannons, does not change the fact, that cannons are better overall
10k DPS Vesta threads: 1; 2
this 2 sentences have nothing to do with each other....why you read them as one, idk.
first sentence is about ships and captains combinations, the second is about the aux2batt build specifically regardless of captain type.
you just put them together, they are not even from the same post...
you sceptizism about BFAW is a scepticism with AOE effects in general it seems...scatter volley, GW, anything that does dmg to more than 1 target is bound to hit something where it gets healed away...
following your logic any dmg that gets healed shouldn't be counted as dps by a parser.
this has nothing to do with the class you play...nothing is stopping my tac captain from using aux2SIF3 on a cruiser, or my engi captain using Omega3 on an escort...you can't bring the best trainable abilites of your class, but you get the complete array of commander abilities of the other class, by simply training the ability to the boff you want...
You don't lose anything
they DO NOT need to be relevant to your profession. Your profession/class has absolutely no impact on your ship regarding the boff powers...and again, followed by a completely unrelated sentence about how BFAW is parsed
mind you, FAW hits too much of that, that is why you have such high numbers, and that is why you will never actually know how much actual potential is in it. with SCV you can turn so that you hit only relevant things, with BFAW, you cant, or you have to move really far, making your overall dps drop.
1. not many ppl realize that sadly
2. maybe it should not be like that, and stuff should be enhanced by your profession (but again, this would only result, more tacs in the game...)
10k DPS Vesta threads: 1; 2
also BFAW with AP:beta is kind of the best offensive support you can give a grp
yeah, BO is just broken.
tho FAW is useless against huge groups, with high health with its randomness
10k DPS Vesta threads: 1; 2
Can we forget this nonsense, pls?
Yes, cruiser can be tanks but with a good tactical setup it can do very good DPS. Not insane, overpowered dps like escorts but a dps cruiser can do fine in any estf.
I was also a Escort pilot for long, long, time. I was good at damage but couldn't make them tank worth a darn. I would go into arena PVP and see these guys in Bugs and Fleet patrol escorts that could take on 5 at once and not drop shields. I could never figure out how they did that. I am a Tac Captian and now I use a Fleet Excelsior beam boat. I can shield tank in this ship and the Aux2batt build greatly reduces my cool-downs. I can always keep a EPTS and TSS2 and ET and TT up. And I run BO2, BO3 and can do nice spike damage. So in PVP arena I can do really well, unless I'm in a PUG vs Pre-made. The 5 pug matches I did last night I only died maybe once per match if that, and was always in the top 3 in damage and kills. So yes Cruisers are viable in PVP
10k DPS Vesta threads: 1; 2
There are no irrelevant targets in PvE except during Crystalline and hitting Tholians or Shards and if you think...
Then you simply don't understand how parsing works. There's a reason alhucemas' plugin splits base damage and actual damage.
so tell me, how is hitting a cube that is being healed by 3 probes and hitting those 3 probes that are heald by 1-1 probes relevant?
beams still wont be better at burst single target dmg than cannons, no matter if I understand parsing or not
10k DPS Vesta threads: 1; 2
Yes, my doff setup is what you predicted. 3 technicians, a space warfare specialist and Marion the DEM doff. Marion was pretty cheap when I got him, I think he's up to about 30m now. Still, EC is pretty easy to make in this game. I hardly have any "bling" junk on this game (except for the weapons, I guess). The three reputation consoles ANYONE can get extremely easily, with little effort and little grinding. Plasmonic leech is just as easy. The only trouble stuff on my ship is the rep weapons. Frankly, anyone can get them. I have 11 toons, so I get quite a lot of refined dilithium per day if I really set my mind to it and want to grind (Mostly I don't, I'm content with 16/24k per day because it's fast and easy)
As for "left behind in the arms race" - to a certain extent I agree with you. Engineers suck at DPS in space, period. They make great tanks with the silly OP Miracle Worker trait which I adore on my dedicated tank, but they suck in space. They're epic on the ground though. If you roll a engineer toon expect to win on the ground, make a superb tank in space but be a bit behind the tac escorts in space. I don't see that as unbalanced or unfair, personally. I have two engineers and I like them, one in a tanky raptor that *never* dies. No, it doesn't do as much as my TAC BOP but who cares!
WTF are you talking about. Three consoles are from the reputation system which pretty much everyone has, and the other is plasmonic leech which costs absolutely nothing on the exchange.
Everyone owns a fleet ship now, you don't need any money you can just get one for 20m on the exchange. Run Gorn Minefield all day and you'll have enough to do that.
Yes, I have a RMC. I can ditch it and go for aux batteries if you like - that won't change the build at all. I'm not entirely sure what your problem is but get your facts straight.
Kirk's Protege.
Our main and sister channel is DPS-5,000. Anyone can get into that with any kind of build, 5k is very very easy to manage. Once you're in there, people chat, talk builds, crunch numbers, run STFs and generally tend to improve. I joined a few months ago and went from 5k to 10k pretty much overnight just with piloting tips and some small build tweaks (I was in a JHEC at the time).
You don't need BFAW, you don't need a parser, there's always someone happy to do it for you.
As for the 11k channel, the vast majority fly Kumaris, Fleet Defiants and Bugs. There aren't many A2B BFAW spambots at all.
Kirk's Protege.
it is irrelevant for the mission progress...however that is what the ship is capable of. The parser is not wrong, if those targets would not heal themselves the number would still be the same.
you could argue now that a healing target can be hit indefinately to accumulate dmg numbers...however we are talking about dps, and considering that a ISE takes less than 5 minutes with 2-3 tac cruiser aux2batt ships it is hard to argue against it or make that point relevant.
Except for the fact it's putting an APB debuff (and possibly a disruptor proc debuff, and maybe a plasma fire) on whatever it hits. That's pretty big and important that you're forgetting.
I actually consider this ship as more of a support role than a DPS monster - because (as many have pointed out) a non-negligible amount of the damage dealt is to self-regenerating targets which heal themselves.
Sure, I can do if you like.
FWIW I was in the second fasted recorded ISE speedrun on youtube (I uploaded it to youtube)
and the record was set by some of my good friends. Bavra, Porch, Dennis, Gwen, etc. They hold pretty much all the STF optional records.
I actually think our thread in PvE needs updating because I'm sure we're faster than we used to be.
Kirk's Protege.
If I sat there and hammered on cube or probe that was being healed and effectively took 0 damage with my cannon escort my DPS numbers would be easily over 20k. However, all of my damage actually goes into killing stuff instead of spamming it at targets that either heal it shortly or don't take damage at all.
^^^THIS^^^
This statement pretty sums up the truth of the matter for every single argument about ships, builds, and weapon types that ever occur on the forums. I would request that the devs paste this at the end of every such thread. LOL
You're missing the point that I wasn't sitting there hammering the gate, and we got the mission done in under four minutes. With two people above 15k DPS both using BFAW.
Kirk's Protege.
I will be surprised if you can even take down the probes or bop's
Plasmonic leech alone is over 150,000 dil on the kdf side alone, come on now...
And of course cannons beat beams.
All that being said, why worry about dps for pve? eSTF is so forgiving everyone should use whatever they want and have fun.
If you have fun in your cruiser great no reason to care. Fly a weak ship if you like the design it's all good no stress.
lol, you postet my whole responce, but completely ignored the second paragraphe...great job!;)
3x8+30 million ? Yeah that's totally a viable build for your standard cruiser pilot...
Anyway cannons>beams period
why do you feel obligated to pick up a cruiser with an engi as first ship...it is a bad idea, just saying.
plasmonic leech costs only 2 million ec for feds...sry for the kdf there, but thats how it is. it is useless anyway if you run maco shields, buffs don't stack anymore.
if you put a science captain in cruiser or sci vessel you basically have the same result anyway. Escorts are the smaetest choice for new players, regardless of class...i would even go as far and say a tac captain is better off in a cruiser to learn the basics and not die due to constant aggro.